Noah and Total Depravity

[ollie]

Was Noah whom God found righteous also totally deprived and evil and corrupt in sin inherited from Adam? If so How Could he be found righteous?

Any comments? Or thoughts?

[JardinPrayer]

I'm not sure inheriting the original sin necessarily prevents one from being "righteous." If that were the case, why would God even bother to send us Jesus to teach us how to be righteous? In any event, here's what the scripture actually says and also one interesting commentary you may find enlightening.


Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God...
17 And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.
18 But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark--you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you.

Genesis 7:1 Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary: Noah . . . just . . . and perfect--not absolutely; for since the fall of Adam no man has been free from sin except Jesus Christ. But as living by faith he was just (Hebrews 11:7) and perfect--that is, sincere in his desire to do God's will.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

I'm interested to see what others have to say about this issue.

Peace,
JardinPrayer

[FirstSunday33ad]

Yesterday @ 08:15 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=119775#post119775)
ollie:

Was Noah whom God found righteous also totally deprived and evil and corrupt in sin inherited from Adam? If so How Could he be found righteous?

Any comments? Or thoughts?

Obviously Noah wasn't "totally deprived (? Please define you're meaning), evil or corrupt as he was found to be righteous. That he had sin and no doubt committed sinful acts is certain, but it is also clear he had not surrendered to sin nor delighted in it as the rest of humanity had. It is also clear that he had not shut God out of his life nor had he stopped listening to God or worshipping Him.

[ollie]

Yesterday @ 03:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=120430#post120430)
FirstSunday33ad:



Obviously Noah wasn't "totally deprived (? Please define you're meaning), evil or corrupt as he was found to be righteous. That he had sin and no doubt committed sinful acts is certain, but it is also clear he had not surrendered to sin nor delighted in it as the rest of humanity had. It is also clear that he had not shut God out of his life nor had he stopped listening to God or worshipping Him.
Total Depravity as given to the world by John Calvin and his five point TULIP.

[FirstSunday33ad]

Today @ 12:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=121241#post121241)
ollie:


Total Depravity as given to the world by John Calvin and his five point TULIP.

Ah...thanks. I'm not familiar with Calvin so I will have to read up on his five point TULIP. So it wouldn't do for me to reply to this thread or the context of your question any further.

[ollie]

Today @ 12:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=121253#post121253)
FirstSunday33ad:



Ah...thanks. I'm not familiar with Calvin so I will have to read up on his five point TULIP. So it wouldn't do for me to reply to this thread or the context of your question any further.
Here is a very brief descriptin of Calvin's T in his Tulip.





Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our s fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

[JardinPrayer]

I think I have to disagree with Calvin here, Ollie. The real definition of "sin" is simply "failing to do God's will," or more casually, "not getting it." The premise is that if we truly understood what is at stake, we would be falling all over ourselves trying to please God. The popular notion that "sin" means "evil" or "bad" is a big part of what (I think) keeps people from salvation. They recognize their sinful nature, feel God will never accept them, so why try to strive for His grace and mercy? Sin is just "doing it wrong," and repentance is just "asking for forgiveness." It's simple, it doesn't carry with it the damning nature of Calvinism, and it brings salvation within reach to the most "depraved" of us - as long as we have ears to hear.

I do agree that not all will hear God's call and that God already knows who the "remnant" is that will allow Him to dwell in them. Thing is, we don't know who will and who will not, so it is for the believer to give the "good news" to all we encounter.

Guess that's not really about Noah anymore. Did you want to keep the topic on him specifically, or is this really about sin, depravity, and righteousness?

Peace,
JardinPrayer

[FirstSunday33ad]

Today @ 01:02 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=121259#post121259)
ollie:


Here is a very brief descriptin of Calvin's T in his Tulip.





Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our s fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).



Thanks ollie, that is a fascinating point of view (Calvinism I mean). I will definitely get a book or two and study it further.

[ollie]

Today @ 01:31 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=121273#post121273)
JardinPrayer:


I think I have to disagree with Calvin here, Ollie. The real definition of "sin" is simply "failing to do God's will," or more casually, "not getting it."
Right, and Noah was found by God to be righteous, (justified), according to whatever God had commanded. Noah did not fail to do God's will. He did it. He was righteous. All the sinners of the world were destroyed. Noah was found righteous so He and His family were saved.
According to Calvin there would have had to be a point where Noah was not always righteous and in sin inherited from Adam.

Another thought for us today is that we are all descendants from that righteous man and his sons and yet Calvin says we have Adam's sin on us. Yet God destroyed all the sinners with the flood.
The righteous few were saved.



The premise is that if we truly understood what is at stake, we would be falling all over ourselves trying to please God.
Is it a testimony to a lack of the proper faith in God and His Son?




The popular notion that "sin" means "evil" or "bad" is a big part of what (I think) keeps people from salvation. They recognize their sinful nature, feel God will never accept them, so why try to strive for His grace and mercy?
True, people think they must immediately become perfect, not realizing that it is a long row to hoe, working out ones salvation, with the imitation of Christ being strived for.


Sin is just "doing it wrong," and repentance is just "asking for forgiveness." It's simple, it doesn't carry with it the damning nature of Calvinism, and it brings salvation within reach to the most "depraved" of us - as long as we have ears to hear.
Yes, My thoughts on Noah is that God is saying righteousness saves and will be saved and sin destroys and kills and will be destroyed and killed. All done by God. I find it very difficult to put Calvin's words on Noah and say He was at one point totally deprived of any will to obey God. It seems the very fact that God gives His commandments infers that God is giving a choice. Otherwise why give them?


I do agree that not all will hear God's call and that God already knows who the "remnant" is that will allow Him to dwell in them. Thing is, we don't know who will and who will not, so it is for the believer to give the "good news" to all we encounter.
Yes, Certain people have the ears to hear and the eyes to see and hearts to be pricked by the sword of the Holy Spirit. God knows them and has given his people the task of preaching His word to all and those with the ears, eyes, and heart will obey.



Guess that's not really about Noah anymore. Did you want to keep the topic on him specifically, or is this really about sin, depravity, and righteousness?

Peace,
JardinPrayer


I selected Noah as his righteousness seemed to oppose the Calvin thoughts of depravity and wanted to get other's thoughts on it. The Bible is silent on Noah other than God finding him righteous. It never mentions him in sin before the flood nor after, if I remember correctly. The post has to do with my questions and thoughts on sin, depravity, and righteousness according to the Bible.


Thanks for your comments.
Ollie

[JardinPrayer]

Today @ 05:54 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=121431#post121431)
ollie:

Right, and Noah was found by God to be righteous, (justified), according to whatever God had commanded. Noah did not fail to do God's will. He did it. He was righteous. All the sinners of the world were destroyed. Noah was found righteous so He and His family were saved.
Depending on the translation, God "found grace in Noah." In my church we say:
Mercy is when God does not give you what you deserve;
Grace is when God gives you what you don't deserve.
Works for me.
I don't see anything that blatantly says Noah was without sin...it just says God found enough in Noah to make him worth appointing Him custodian of the new earth.


According to Calvin there would have had to be a point where Noah was not always righteous and in sin inherited from Adam. ...(snipping)...Another thought for us today is that we are all descendants from that righteous man and his sons and yet Calvin says we have Adam's sin on us. Yet God destroyed all the sinners with the flood. The righteous few were saved.
It seems to me that the major theme of the bible is to point out that, no matter how many chances God gives us, we mess up. The moment Adam sinned (and Eve), we were all fated to carry that sinful nature...Noah included. However, he was probably the one person in his time that was as obedient to God as a sinner can be. Same thing with Abraham. Same thing with David. Same thing with everyone except Jesus, who was the only human being not born of Adam. Noah was born of Adam's line. Regardless of who died in the flood, his geneology is carried forward and, therefore, his sin.


Is it a testimony to a lack of the proper faith in God and His Son?
Yes. It is a warning...over and over again. If we sin every day and must ask repentence every day, then we still have room for spiritual growth. Jesus led a sinless life and provided a living, breathing example of God's will for us. How many of us can say we truly walk as close to that model as humanly possible - every - single - day. Not that it's futile to try. Indeed, God has forgiven us our sins, past, present, and future, by the finished work of the cross. He now only asks that we acknowledge that sacrifice, believe, and daily try to walk in Christ. Hallelujah. We've got it a whole lot easier than Noah, Abraham, Moses and the rest...in some ways. In some ways, more difficult, since we are to believe in something we cannot see and remain steadfast in our faith without the benefit of burning bushes, apparitions, or voices in the sky.


Yes, My thoughts on Noah is that God is saying righteousness saves and will be saved and sin destroys and kills and will be destroyed and killed. All done by God. I find it very difficult to put Calvin's words on Noah and say He was at one point totally deprived of any will to obey God. It seems the very fact that God gives His commandments infers that God is giving a choice. Otherwise why give them?
I think you're making several points here...not sure. First, I don't think "sin kills and destroys." The Enemy robs, kills, and destroys. Using my previous definition of "sin," I can't agree that it is the thing that dooms us. Especially in the New Testament when the word of the day is forgiveness.

I'm not a Calvin scholar, but from what you're saying here, I don't believe the bible is saying Noah was absolutely in sin or absolutely righteous. He was the best of the bunch at that point in time.

As for the commandments, God gave them and the law to Moses because mankind had begun to slip in it's faith and obedience - yet again. God had already promised never to destroy us again, so He had to provide a way for us to redeem ourselves since He cannot abide unatoned sin. He essentially says, "Here are the rules of the game. Follow them and you win. Fail to follow them and you go to jail without passing Go or collecting $200." So, yes, it is a choice, but not one that was available to Noah.


Yes, Certain people have the ears to hear and the eyes to see and hearts to be pricked by the sword of the Holy Spirit. God knows them and has given his people the task of preaching His word to all and those with the ears, eyes, and heart will obey.
Always a pleasure to be in agreement on Jesus.


The Bible is silent on Noah other than God finding him righteous. It never mentions him in sin before the flood nor after, if I remember correctly.
There is a tale after the flood when Noah gets stinking drunk and passes out naked in his tent. Both drunkeness and nakedness are no-no's in God's eyes (note, Adam and Eve covering themselves with fig leaves, and the new testament explicitly saying not to make oneself drunk on wine). The point of this passage, though is that "love covers with silence." It says one of Noah's 3 sons finds him in this state and immediately goes to his brothers to tell them in a gossipy fashion. The two brothers go to the tent, back into it so as not to disrespect Noah by looking at him, cover him with a blanket and leave the tent. The bible tells us the two brothers were blessed by Noah upon his awakening and the third was cursed, along with his lineage.

Sin does not preclude rightousness. We're all sinners and we all have the opportunity to demonstrate righteous behavior as a sign of obedience. God deems many men righteous (I've mentioned some of them above). He selects favorites and makes them prophets, apostles, kings. They all sin, yet they are all righteous. Only Jesus is sinless.

Peace,
JardinPrayer