Mitochondrial Eve

[Yog^sothoth]

We're studying, or will be anyway, Mitochondria inheritence and this made me think of the theory of a Mitochondrial Eve. That is to say that almost everyone shares a certain base percentage of the same mitochondrial DNA, inherited through the mother and the rest is created through random mutation and the father.

So, can anyone enlighten me further on this elusive subject?

[Yog^sothoth]

how did this go here?

can someone move this to the science forum?

thanks?!

[dizzle]

I will move it. I was wondering what you were smoking to put this in the amphitheater...

[TheFiveSolas]

Yog wrote:

We're studying, or will be anyway, Mitochondria inheritence and this made me think of the theory of a Mitochondrial Eve. That is to say that almost everyone shares a certain base percentage of the same mitochondrial DNA, inherited through the mother and the rest is created through random mutation and the father.

I write:

Everyone inherits their nuclear DNA (the full complement of DNA that resides in the nucleus of all our cells except for the sex cells, which contain HALF) from their mother and father (1/2 from each). In the "power production plant" section of each cell, the mitochondria, there is a SHORT strand (comparatively speaking) of DNA (this one only has 37 genes, scientists believe the nuclear DNA contains 50,000-100,000 genes). This DNA is aptly called mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA).

Mitochondrial DNA, for reasons unknown (at this stage) to scientists, is inherited ONLY from the mother. A person's mtDNA therefore is the product ONLY of that which is inherited from their mother AND any accidental copying errors (random mutations) that have occurred in the ancestral line.

Hope that helps :)

[Stratnerd]

This is a useful link

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/mitoeve.html

Mitochondrial DNA, for reasons unknown (at this stage) to scientists, is inherited ONLY from the mother.

I believe it is simply a matter of the amount of cytoplasm in each of the gametes, with the egg having >>> amounts of cytoplasm than the sperm. And they do know that some paternal mitochondria do make it into the egg but given the numerical dominance of maternal mitochondria - the paternal mt are unlikely to be sampled (or even detected). I have another idea but I've never seen it explicitly stated (but then I don't keep up on ontogeny): I wonder if any cell line is likely to be a dead end and that the male "contaminated" area is so small that the probability that the orginal cell surviving (through mitosis) is also small.

[Socrates]

Anyone who trusts that pathetic talk.origins bilge needs his/her head read. See True Origins (http://www.trueorigin.org/).

As I said on the other post, Answers in Genesis has a great article (www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4055.asp) on this.

[Yog^sothoth]

Socrates, a hypothesis is a hypothesis but can be proven or unproven in the long run. If a hypothesis is debunked, does that mean it was pathetic?

No.

Science progresses because we come up with educated, observational ideas and procede to figure out with the scientific method if these ideas have any sort of base on the b uilding or reworking of scientific fact.

But that doesn't make any idea pathetic.

Be nice, any scientific thought is a good one.

[Socrates]

I was referring to that nonsensical website, which is something I advise against wading through unless you have a clothespeg on your nose and waist-high gumboots.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Socrates:
Anyone who trusts that pathetic talk.origins bilge needs his/her head read. See True Origins (http://www.trueorigin.org/).

As I said on the other post, Answers in Genesis has a great article (www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4055.asp) on this.
Hi Socrates,

The AIG article is not quite correct when it says evolutionists didn't expect to find a Mitochodrial Eve. As can be seen from the talk.origins article, it's known that there has to be an ME. The 1987 study was to find out, not if she existed, but when and where she existed.

Robin Goodfellow

[Socrates]

Hi Socrates,

The AIG article is not quite correct when it says evolutionists didn't expect to find a Mitochodrial Eve. As can be seen from the talk.origins article, it's known that there has to be an ME. The 1987 study was to find out, not if she existed, but when and where she existed.

Robin Goodfellow


Hi Robin

As I said, talk origins has no credibility whatever. There are many evolutionists who still resist this idea and support the multi-regional hypothesis.

Socrates

[Robin Goodfellow]

Socrates:


Hi Robin

As I said, talk origins has no credibility whatever. There are many evolutionists who still resist this idea and support the multi-regional hypothesis.

Socrates
Yes, but no one doubts that there has to be an ME.

[ItalianGold]

This is a question for either of you.

Do we know, ABO blood-group-wise and DNA-wise, if all the genetic information now found in the human race can be traced to an original couple?

[Socrates]

ItalianGold:
Do we know, ABO blood-group-wise and DNA-wise, if all the genetic information now found in the human race can be traced to an original couple?Yes, as explained in Blood types and their origin (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/490.asp). Note also, the creation model allows for informationally neutral and deleterious mutations. E.g. that article argues that the O group may be the result of an information loss from the A gene.

[TheFiveSolas]

Stratnerd wrote:

And they do know that some paternal mitochondria do make it into the egg but given the numerical dominance of maternal mitochondria - the paternal mt are unlikely to be sampled (or even detected).


As far as I know there is only one known example of mtDNA being passed from a father (and RETAINED in the offspring), and this is due (most probably) to a genetic defect.
See the following article for more information:

http://wwwstaff.murdoch.edu.au/pipermail/spermail/2002-August/000052.html

A couple of quotes:

"Even with very sensitive methods, paternal mitochondrial DNA has
never been detected in man before,"...Further, Schwartz said, scientists have noticed time and again that
even when sperm are directly injected into a woman's egg, in a
fertility treatment known as intracytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI),
the paternal mitochondria seem to disappear after only a few cell
divisions in the growing embryo.

In an editorial accompanying Schwartz's study, Dr. R. Sanders
Williams, a scientist at Duke University Medical Center in Durham,
NC, called the new findings "remarkable and unanticipated."

Schwartz still thinks that it would be unusual to find bits of
paternal mitochondrial DNA in the general public. "Our theory is that
paternal mitochondria will only survive if they harbor a mutation in
their DNA," she said.

[Stratnerd]

"Our theory is that paternal mitochondria will only survive if they harbor a mutation in their DNA," she said.

I wonder what this person means? I bet it may happen more often than what we suspect but perhaps it is the mutations that make them obvious. But I found these two articles of interest:

Do mitochondria recombine in humans?

Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci 2000 Nov 29;355(1403):1573-80

Until very recently, mitochondria were thought to be clonally inherited through the maternal line in most higher animals. However, three papers published in 2000 claimed population-genetic evidence of recombination in human mitochondrial DNA. Here I review the current state of the debate. I review the evidence for the two main pathways by which recombination might occur: through paternal leakage and via a mitochondrial DNA sequence in the nuclear genome. There is no strong evidence for either pathway, although paternal leakage seems a definite possibility. However, the population-genetic evidence, although not conclusive, is strongly suggestive of recombination in mitochondrial DNA. The implications of non-clonality for our understanding of human and mitochondrial evolution are discussed.

so I wondered what happens to paternal mt since they obviously get in and I found this

Fertilization and elimination of the paternal mitochondrial

Hum Reprod 2000 Jul;15 Suppl 2:92-101

With rare exceptions, mammalian mitochondria are inherited through the female. This probably serves to minimize lethal cytoplasmic gene competition and to prevent the inheritance of sperm mitochondrial DNA that has been subject to degradation by free radicals. In general, organisms are intolerant of mitochondrial heteroplasmy and, when this occurs in humans, it frequently presents as progressive and lethal bioenergetic or neurological disease. The mitochondria of spermatozoa are specifically destroyed by proteolysis in early embryonic development, in mice at the 4- to 8-cell transition.

[TheFiveSolas]

Strat,
I just clarified my last post by editing it to state that it is rare for the mtDNA found in the male gamete to be passed and RETAINED in the offspring.
The article I linked to did make the point that your second quote did, namely that the male mitochondria seem to be systematically destroyed after only a couple of cell divisions.

[Stratnerd]

Cool, that's really interesting stuff, eh? I think so. To think that my mitochondria were sought out and slaughtered.... sends shivers up my notochord. :thumb:

[TheFiveSolas]

:rofl:

[ItalianGold]

Socrates:
Yes, as explained in Blood types and their origin (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/490.asp). Note also, the creation model allows for informationally neutral and deleterious mutations. E.g. that article argues that the O group may be the result of an information loss from the A gene.

Thanks for the link. While I did not find it wholly satisfactory, it was enlightening.

Here's a question - assuming that we agree that Christ was "fully human" (as well as fully divine) - what do you suppose the origin of his DNA was? Did he get 23 pairs of chromosomes like other men? Were half of them inherited from Mary?

I know you don't have a definitive answer, I'm just asking for speculation because it's such an interesting topic.

:read:

[Socrates]

Italian Gold:
Here's a question - assuming that we agree that Christ was "fully human" (as well as fully divine)If one is a Christian one does, by definition.

- what do you suppose the origin of his DNA was? Did he get 23 pairs of chromosomes like other men? Were half of them inherited from Mary? Yes, He inherited half of each pair from Mary, and the other half was taken care of when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her.

[Yog^sothoth]

Divine Chromosomes......I wonder if X and Y were different?:brow: