Does God Answer Prayer?

[Doubting John]

I noticed in the "Chaplain's Office" people are praying for my wife who has been diagnosed with cancer. Thank you very much for your concern, and I sure would like to think it can help, but I really don't think so. You might prove me wrong, but here's what I think:

The Problem of Unanswered Prayer.

I’m not a stranger to unanswered prayer. I prayed daily for several years that Elton John would become a Christian and record Christian songs, when I was young. I finally gave up. Some may even be as skeptical of prayer as the late Carl Sagan, who wrote: “We can pray over the cholera victim, or we can give her 500 milligrams of tetracycline every 12 hours…the scientific treatments are hundreds or thousands of times more effective than the alternatives (like prayer). Even when the alternatives seem to work, we don’t actually know that they played any role.” The Demon Haunted World, (Random House, 1996, pp. 9-10).

The problem of unanswered prayer is particularly vexing when many Biblical promises of answered prayer seem unqualified (Matthew 7:7; John 14:13; 15:16; and 16:23). The problem is that our experience teaches us otherwise. We all know of someone who has died even though believers had prayed. This is true even of those we deem spiritual giants.

When we seriously reflect upon it, a recipe for disaster would be for God to simply give us whatever we ask. Whenever we experience the slightest suffering, answered prayer would rescue us. Yet suffering teaches us to have a deeper faith we are told, which brings more glory to God (James 1:2-4; I Peter 1:6-7). According to the Bible it’s God’s will that sometimes we suffer (Job). Sometimes it may even be God’s will that we fail in an endeavor. For only through pain and failure can we learn of God’s grace and truth in our lives in a way that makes future ministry more effective, it is said. (See Acts 7:23-36; Luke 22:31-32; John 21:15-19).

Several Biblical examples of unanswered prayer are discernible. They include Jesus’ request to avoid the cross (Matthew 27:39; Luke 22:42); Jesus’ prayer for Christian unity (John 17:20-22); Paul’s request to remove a “thorn in the flesh” (II Corinthians 12:7); and Paul’s request that he would be delivered from unbelievers in Jerusalem (Romans 15:31; compare Acts 21). While it may be true that both Jesus and Paul sought “Thy will not mine” their expressed desires went unanswered as intended.

INADEQUATE SOLUTIONS-- Three solutions are inadequate for this problem. One) Some Christians simply deny that prayer ever goes unanswered if prayed in faith. This is a radical view and has given rise to the “name it claim it” theology. But this view leads to intense guilt if prayers go unanswered, and forces some to paradoxically claim that God healed them even when the symptoms remain!

Two) Others believe God always answers prayer, but that sometimes his answer is “No.” But think about it; how is it possible that a negative answer is not considered an unanswered prayer? Someone who says an answered prayer is one in which God could sometimes say “No”, is merely saying God has responded in some way. But for us to say that prayer was answered we really want to know whether the request was granted or not. A denied request is one that goes unanswered, and a request granted is one that is answered. If someone wants to maintain that all prayers are answered, then we merely need to ask them whether God says, “yes” to all prayers, and God clearly doesn’t do this. That’s the whole reason why unanswered prayer is a problem in the first place, and it is a problem.

Three) Still others rationalize things away so that they can still say God answered their prayer even though God didn’t do as they requested. One church prayed for a cancer patient who died. The minister subsequently claimed God had answered their prayer because he said they were praying for her release from the hospital. Since she died, she was in fact released from the hospital and went to be with God. But that was not what they meant when they prayed. While it may be true to say God gives us what is best, that doesn’t mean he gives us exactly what we asked him.

SOME OTHER SOLUTIONS— Several other solutions are offered to help explain the problem of unanswered prayer. They demand that we see the promises of answered prayer as qualified ones. My contention here that the promise of answered prayer “dies the death of a thousand qualifications,” so to speak. There is no reason to think that God, if he exists, will answer our requests. Depending on how one categorizes them I’ve discovered several qualifications to answered prayer.

ONE) Sin in our lives. God is under no obligation to answer the specific prayers of one tangled in sin. (Psalms 66:18; Isaiah 59:1-2; James 5:16; I John 3:21-22). This includes all of the outward and inward sins in the Bible, plus not treating family members right (I Peter 3:7), and not growing as a Christian (John 15:15-16; Galatians 5:22-23). But a problem surfaces here. Since Christians are washed in the blood of Jesus, God supposedly sees no sin in them. How can God see our sins if we are already washed clean? But if somehow God can see our sins, and if that means seeing inside our filthy hearts, then no one is clean enough to expect anything from God when we pray. No one.

TWO) Wrong motives in our prayer. God is under no obligation to answer selfish prayers. (James 4:3). Conversely, our prayers must seek to glorify God not us. God is under no obligation to answer prayers that fail to give glory to God. (John 14:13; II Corinthians 12:9-10). We may not even know what would bring God the most glory. (John 9:3).

But there are some very strong arguments that indicate there is nothing a human can do or say that are completely free of selfish motives. Psychological Egoism, for instance, is the theory that everything we do, even if in some small degree, benefits us the most. While I do not accept that theory, it has a very large degree of truth to it. Even if we don’t take that extreme stance, most all of what we do is done from motives that benefit ourselves first. Most all of our prayers contain some selfish motives. Even the preacher who prays that his church mature and grow can also be wanting a bigger paycheck, more power, some recognized fame, and fewer problem people as they mature in their Christian faith.

THREE) Lack of faith in prayer. God is under no obligation to answer the prayers of someone who doesn’t believe he will. (Mark 11: 24; James 1:6-8; 5:15). This faith must show itself to be persistent and earnest in prayer. (Matt. 7:7; Luke 11:5-8; 18:1-8). Jesus does talk as if all you need is faith and God will intervene for you. He makes it sound easy. All you should have to do is say to that mountain to move over there, and it shall be done. But it doesn't move. So you blame yourself. Something must be wrong with your faith, is the conclusion. Then that failure is a memory and you don't step out so far on the limb next time. And when you fail in faith again, then you hesitate to step out on that limb again. This happens until you find yourself clinging to the tree trunk for fear of stepping out on faith much at all. So you feel guilty about this all over again. Then you hear a good sermon and try again, and when your faith fails you are back to the tree trunk again. So you feel guilty again. It's simply impossible for adults to have childlike faith because we are no longer children. We've had too many experiences that temper our faith—too many tragedies, too many unanswered prayers, too many setbacks. And all of these things have taught us that believing doesn't always work. So we simply don’t believe like we think we should. So we feel guilty, and we struggle some more. And we feel guilty some more for struggling, etc. I blame the traditional faith for causing this guilt. My view doesn't produce guilt because I no longer have such expectations that God will intervene in prayer.

FOUR) It must be according to God’s will. God is under no obligation to answer the prayer that is ignorant of God’s will. (I John 5:14-15: Matthew 27:39-41; Luke 22:42; John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23). Conversely, our prayers must not bring social injustice here on earth. God is under no obligation to answer a prayer that brings any injustice on others. (Luke 18:7-8).

Why would God answer the prayers of a slave owner who asked that none of his slaves would run away, or the prayers of the KKK for white supremacy, or the prayers of those who want a man standing accused of a crime to be found guilty, if in fact he is innocent? Unjust prayers have no assurance God will answer them. I understand that. But there are so many other ethical and social issues in our world today. How can we really claim on every issue that we really know the mind of God enough to pray for what we think should be done? Most of history is the history of human errors.

It is said that we may be praying for an end to AIDS, poverty, teenage pregnancy, and so on, but God doesn’t do much to change the situation because as a nation we have to repent first. But I cannot see how it’s not God’s will that more people be saved, and yet the Christian faith is losing ground in the world today. My cousin told me once that he doesn’t think God wants everyone to be saved. Of course he’s a good Calvinist and thinks God wills or decrees everything that happens. But the problem of evil resurfaces here. It takes more faith than I will ever have to say that it was God’s will for Hitler to start WWII, or for terrorists to fly planes into the World Trade Center’s Twin Towers in New York, or for good churches to fight and split up, or for children to die prematurely, or for people to starve to death. Calvinists believe God decrees those things to happen, and non-Calvinists simply believe that Christians are the ones blamed for not praying enough. But maybe prayer just doesn’t always help us like that.

FIVE) It must be within God’s power to grant the request. Sometimes believers are praying for contradictory things. It’s like two fellows both praying for the romantic affections of one girl, two athletes on opposite teams both praying to win a certain ball game, two people praying for the same job, or the farmer who prays for rain while the vacationer is praying for sunshine, and so on. Then too, what about mothers who are praying for the lives of their sons on opposite sides of a battle during the Civil War, or WWII? Or, what of a convicted criminal who prays for a judge to be lenient in his sentencing versus the victim who prays the criminal receives the maximum penalty allowed by law? God cannot answer all prayers because to do so would be to do what is logically impossible. This qualification alone may cause hundreds of thousands of prayers to go unanswered!

SIX) Biblical history teaches us that when praying for certain things God is under no obligation to answer our requests in our lifetime. We are told we must have patience because of God’s timetable. Think of the prayers offered during the long Israelite Egyptian slavery (Exodus 2:23-25), or the Babylonian Captivity (Lamentations 1-5). There were Jews who prayed for the coming of the Messiah, and for the many Christians down through the centuries who have prayed for the return of Jesus. There are surely other requests that just don’t fit into God’s timetable because we just don’t know God’s plan for earth. But in the meantime we wonder why God doesn’t help and/or rescue us when we hurt so badly.

SEVEN) Certain other requests must eventually be denied no matter how often we pray for them. Death, sickness, pain, hard work and strained relationships are part of the curse placed upon humankind because of the supposed Fall into sin. (Genesis 3:8-19). Prayer can lessen the effects of the Fall but it cannot eliminate them. We will eventually die. We cannot avoid getting sick from time to time. There will be strained relationships, and work will nearly always be hard. You cannot expect God to answer these prayers. Do not pray that you won’t die, or that work will be easy, or that you won’t have strained relationships. You will have strained relationships even if you pray daily not to have any. He cannot answer such prayers.

EIGHT) There is the additional problem of human free will (for non-Calvinists). There seems to be the admittance throughout the Bible that human beings have been given free will and that some choose to reject God ("whosoever will, may come"). Given this fact, one must wonder how much change we can expect by praying for an unrepentant person. I recall a conversation my Pastor had with me, as I was becoming a skeptical person. It went like this:
Pastor: John, my prayer for you is that you come to your senses before you go off the deep end.
John: Well, if that's your prayer and if prayer works, then I won't go off the deep end, will I?
Pastor: But it will depend upon whether or not you have a receptive heart.
John: Well, if it depends upon my heart, then why bother to pray for me?

Had my Pastor responded further by saying he will begin praying that I have a receptive heart, I could've responded as I did at first. I could've replied, "Well, if that's your prayer and if prayer works, then I will be given a receptive heart, won't I?" [Sometimes I’m just cantankerous]. Of course a Calvinist must admit that God has decreed that I should be a doubter and that I should write a book that will lead others into becoming doubters like me—even though the Bible tells us God desires all people everywhere to be saved! (See II Peter 3:9). [see my book: From Minster to Honest Doubter: Why I Changed My Mind, available at amazon.com].

A FINAL THOUGHT—Even though there are many qualifications for answered prayer we are told not to be timid in prayer. Jesus encouraged us to pray with expectation. In Hebrews 4:16 we are encouraged to come confidently before God’s throne of grace. Even when we are unsure what to pray for we are assured that God can read the thoughts of our hearts (Romans 8:26-27). But with all of the qualifications this is extremely hard to do. These qualifications are set up as a brick wall to our expecting anything from God.

[FirstSunday33ad]

Does God answer prayer?

Sure does, least wise every prayer I've ever made has been answered.

The gist of your article seems to suggest that even if a prayer is answered it is irrelevent.

Perhaps that is the start of your problem right there?

All I know is I have prayed for specific answers - and being a rationalist and a realist, I don't fudge or massage the reply, I WANT a specific answer - and every time I have gotten it.

And yes, that does mean I have always received EXACTLY what I have prayed for.

Good luck in your new endevour.

[Doubting John]

I find that of the people who faithfully read their horoscopes that they too believe these horoscopes tell them of the future. It seems as though they can somehow make anything fit themselves, just like Christians claim God answers their prayers. The mind is an amazing generator of fiction. Believing makes it so, irregardless of whether or not something objectively happened that actually fits. And even then there is the chance that sometimes it works because the odds are that it will once in a while. The odds are that even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

[betzerg]

Does God answer prayer?

Sure does, least wise every prayer I've ever made has been answered.

The gist of your article seems to suggest that even if a prayer is answered it is irrelevent.

Perhaps that is the start of your problem right there?

All I know is I have prayed for specific answers - and being a rationalist and a realist, I don't fudge or massage the reply, I WANT a specific answer - and every time I have gotten it.

And yes, that does mean I have always received EXACTLY what I have prayed for.

Good luck in your new endevour.

so could you be more specific....like..did yo pray that the sun would shine...or that you'd have enough air to breath....really...what kind of prayers are answered ...be very specific.

Shalom,

BETZER

[Doubting John]

The Struggles of Faith.

I used to try to understand where God is when tragedy struck. Or, why he allowed it... The only way I could get a handle on it was in hindsight, sometimes after a few years or more. It was faith that led me to believe it would all come together, even if I couldn't understand why it happened at the time. I'm sure that's where many Christians are when tragedy strikes....wondering....believing...hoping. And it's a struggle for them, like it was for me. But they struggle onward.

Psalms 46:10 tells us to "cease (struggling) and know I am God." But that's an impossible command to follow, when we as rational creatures do what rational creatures by nature must do...struggle with the things that happen in our lives. So on top of the tragedies in life, now they must struggle with guilt for struggling.

Well, I've just ceased struggling, period. I no longer try to figure out why God allows things to happen in our lives. Pardon my language here, but I now think [expletive] just happens. Sorry. I no longer try to figure things out, because I no longer have a faith that says God is in it. All I can say is that God will give you strength to bear up under life's tragedies. But I no longer say that God can allow or disallow anything that happens in our lives for some greater purpose.

I think of God as someone who is watching how we humans deal with each other and with the forces of nature. Otherwise we have to try to struggle with why there were so many hurricanes battering Florida in 2004. It's sort of an experiment to see what we can and will do with life on planet earth. With the free will he's given us, what will we do with life on earth? Make of it what you will. It's all yours now. Call to God for strength and wisdom if you like, or seek within yourself your own strength and wisdom--it's all the same. Do the best you can with what you have, and see what happens.

Perhaps this isn't enough for you. But it's absolutely freeing to me. There's no more guilt, and the guilt was overpowering to me.

[jpholding]

I guess it would be a waste of time to correct you by saying that you need to view prayer in terms of an ancient Greco-Roman model of patronage as opposed to a grocery gumball machine. :ahem: Tends to make all those little problems go away, kind of like an Alka Seltzer.

But I guess you never learned about patronage while at school huh DJ.

[Tophet]

Yo, John:

You ran away from my question from another thread. Can you answer it here and now?

Let God show me here and now, and I'll forever believe in him. This is not a threat. It's how I fell deep inside. It's not an argument. It's just who I am.
Is this who you are, John?

James 1:2-8
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a doubleminded man, unstable in all he does.

[Doubting John]

Tophet

Keep posting your blather girl friend.

And soon everyone will ignore you.

[Tophet]

Tophet

Keep posting your blather girl friend.

And soon everyone will ignore you.
Except you like to continue our relationship. Does your wife approve? :wink:

[learning]

God has answered DJ's prayer for his wife. Leave him be.

DJ, here's an answer to prayer that "I" know is a true answer, as it was proof to me that God really is there. I told you of how at camp, that God gave me back my faith. Well, He did. But I later went and read some other atheist things, and through discussions, got to have a bad view of myself, so again lost faith in God, as I figured maybe some things were just 'coincidences' and maybe that healing of epilepsy was just a 'mental' thing or something else. And, because of how down I was, I actually was considering ending it all. I had a christian internet friend who lived in California, and the night I was considering it, in 2002, she said later, that she felt that God was speaking to her to get down and really pray for me. She didn't know why, but did pray for me. I read the next day on her site (and she had no idea how serious I was, in fact, I didn't even share with her until a couple of years later how bad it was) but she came on her discussion board, and said she didn't know why, but asked for others to pray for me. I knew then there had to be a God, who for some reason, wanted me to go on. I knew that she didn't know why, but God knew, why she needed to pray for me that day. I do remember feeling a strong urge to end it all, even had two methods picked out, and then, it sort of left me, this strong urge to end it all. I don't like talking about this, and this may not be enough for you, but it was and is for me. I would have to deny reality to not believe in God. No way, did anyone know I was so down on myself and had no hope. I know now, that He will not leave me nor forsake me. Those promises in the Bible are true. He will not leave you nor forsake you. We may forsake Him, but He doesn't us.

This was not my prayer, but hers. I couldn't even believe to pray, so didn't. But someone else did, for me, and I will be eternally grateful.

[Doubting John]

Learning:

I would have to deny reality to not believe in God.

I understand.

I actually don't know if God answers prayer. I pray with hope, especially for my wife.

[zorathruster]

Learning:

I actually don't know if God answers prayer. I pray with hope, especially for my wife.

The church of England has a part of the service where all attendees are required to pray for the health of the royal family. Now think about this, almost every person who is not Catholic in England for many hundreds of years, every sunday engaging in prayer for a specific "health" related topic. Now when you compare the royals to persons in the same socio-economic class for longivity they fair poorly. Less than average! Think about that, literally millions of people praying weekly for a specific positive outcome and basically - it doesn't work.

[FirstSunday33ad]

The church of England has a part of the service where all attendees are required to pray for the health of the royal family. Now think about this, almost every person who is not Catholic in England for many hundreds of years, every sunday engaging in prayer for a specific "health" related topic. Now when you compare the royals to persons in the same socio-economic class for longivity they fair poorly. Less than average! Think about that, literally millions of people praying weekly for a specific positive outcome and basically - it doesn't work.


Oh for the love of pete.... :ahem:

It's no wonder atheists don't believe in God, its impossible to drill through that much concrete.

For your future knowledge and edification....prayer is not a candy-store, nor is it a wish-list, a letter to Santa, a "magical incantation" or any of the other non-working definitions atheists have come up with.

It is a personal statement between you and God. A generalized "prayer" for the "health" of the monarch - God save the Queen - is NOT a "prayer". Every thinking human on the planet recognizes it as being nothing more than a statement of loyalty and support for the monarchy.

[learning]

shoot, what about the Queen Mum? She lived to 101.
God does make promises in His word, but often they are conditional, not to be mean, but for our own sake. IF is a word often seen in His promises. He says in the Old Testament, that the rules and guidelines He gave them were 'for their own good, that they might live long in the land'.

From my personal work with the aged, often those with a thankful-grateful heart
(they often thank us for work that we are payed to do), these persons often live a long life. One gentleman I know, who has passed away, was supposed to have died over seven years ago. He told me of how he thanked God for everything. But this gentleman was so missed by us all, he was such a lovely, kind, gentleman. He would say hello to everyone, staff, fellow residents in a seniors' residents, everyone. Many were so sad when he died. He always asked how one was, and took time to listen how they were. When I walked by his old room, I got a lump in my throat.

[zorathruster]

Oh for the love of pete.... :ahem:

It's no wonder atheists don't believe in God, its impossible to drill through that much concrete.

For your future knowledge and edification....prayer is not a candy-store, nor is it a wish-list, a letter to Santa, a "magical incantation" or any of the other non-working definitions atheists have come up with.



Well there you have it Qualifications out the wa-zu. Preachers standing at the pulpit don't issue the qualifications but when you get down to asking the "how does this supposedly work" or "What exactly is going to happen when I pray?" Theists such as 1sunday begin the hedging of the bet. Well it doesn't work this way - the way implied by all those who with quick sound bites asure others of relief or assistance. It doesn't work at all but they won't tell you that.

So what are the rules? If it happens like you wanted, it worked. If it doesn't happen the way you wanted, it worked but the Grand PooBah didn't want to do what you asked. There really according to such logic is no falsification criteria. That a proposal needs such a characteristic was validated by the work of Karl Popper who proved to most intelegent thinkers it is essential for any proposal. So much so that even in scientific review falsification criteria are an essential part.

So 1st Sunday what are the falsification criteria for your assertion that prayer works?

[learning]

Wasn't this already hashed out somewhere else before, about the falsification criteria of prayer?

I find, that the most important thing, is not that prayer changes 'things' as prayer changes 'me' or 'people'. Sure, I would love it if God would heal a lot of the people I work with, who have physical handicaps or illness. I would really love for a lot of the mental handicaps to be healed. But maybe, God allows them, so that love can grow?
It is the only answer I can find.


"It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't often happen to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand."

From 'The Velveteen Rabbit' by Margery Williams

[FirstSunday33ad]

Well there you have it Qualifications out the wa-zu. Preachers standing at the pulpit don't issue the qualifications but when you get down to asking the "how does this supposedly work" or "What exactly is going to happen when I pray?" Theists such as 1sunday begin the hedging of the bet. Well it doesn't work this way - the way implied by all those who with quick sound bites asure others of relief or assistance. It doesn't work at all but they won't tell you that.

So what are the rules? If it happens like you wanted, it worked. If it doesn't happen the way you wanted, it worked but the Grand PooBah didn't want to do what you asked. There really according to such logic is no falsification criteria. That a proposal needs such a characteristic was validated by the work of Karl Popper who proved to most intelegent thinkers it is essential for any proposal. So much so that even in scientific review falsification criteria are an essential part.

So 1st Sunday what are the falsification criteria for your assertion that prayer works?


THUNK...THUNK...THUNK....

Nope sorry, to get through something this dense we will have to blast...

Karl Popper also pointed out that those people who set the bar of evidence so high that it can never be reached are guilty of invalidating the test before it is even begun.

So why don't you first tell me YOUR criteria for validity?

[zorathruster]

THUNK...THUNK...THUNK....

Nope sorry, to get through something this dense we will have to blast...

Karl Popper also pointed out that those people who set the bar of evidence so high that it can never be reached are guilty of invalidating the test before it is even begun.

So why don't you first tell me YOUR criteria for validity?

So you don't have any falsification criteria. Those who assert a claim, such as
"Prayer works" are responsible to defend the assertion. Your side step reveals you have no basis or ability to defend your assertion. Your argument is void of substance. Keep praying, you need something to consume your time because logic or validity is not part of your capability.

The bar is not too high. If you wish to control a study I am willing to do the hard work for you. I just went out and bought a lottery ticket. The odds according to the back are 265,477,218 to 1 of winning. My numbers are 12, 22, 33, 43, 44, 47 and powerball 11. Now if praying can make a difference go to it. If the odds of what you pray for are heavy against the occurance and you are able to effect the odds by praying, then there are the numbers. If prayer works, then heavy odds should not be a problem, especially for an omnipotent and all powerful being.

Now if you want to say that your praying can't tilt odds then admit it, you are stuck with the same odds and the same possible outcomes as all of the rest of humanity. That applies to cancer, family injury and losses, disease, and lotteries.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Here is the test, start praying or give up and admit you have no capability to effect anything through prayer.

Drawing is Wednesday 10 pm EST.

[learning]

Sorry, I don't think God would answer this, because, He only answers what may be for our good, and this might not be. Why do I think this, because of James 4:1-3
"What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures."

I find this kind of test, not worthy to be prayed for. It is a selfish request, and if you won, you would say it was a fluke. If you lose, you would say that that proves God doesn't answer prayer. But why should God answer this prayer, if you would use that money just for your selfish needs? God does own the cattle on the thousand hills, and money is not a problem to Him. But He knows how we get over money. Money should be just a tool, but too many of us make it into an idol, thinking if we just had a third more, life would be dandy. But I have heard of so many people that have won a lottery, and how they either spent it foolishly, or there were family fights over it, etc. I grieve over how many family fights I have heard over even inheritance when someone has died.

I don't think this is a good test for 'answer to prayer' but that is because I see a problem with money at times. I would see a better test, that God would do something personal in your life, that would make Him known to you. That is what I will pray for.

[zorathruster]

Sorry, I don't think God would answer this, because, He only answers what may be for our good, and this might not be. Why do I think this, because of James 4:1-3
"What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures."

I find this kind of test, not worthy to be prayed for. It is a selfish request, and if you won, you would say it was a fluke. If you lose, you would say that that proves God doesn't answer prayer. But why should God answer this prayer, if you would use that money just for your selfish needs? God does own the cattle on the thousand hills, and money is not a problem to Him. But He knows how we get over money. Money should be just a tool, but too many of us make it into an idol, thinking if we just had a third more, life would be dandy. But I have heard of so many people that have won a lottery, and how they either spent it foolishly, or there were family fights over it, etc. I grieve over how many family fights I have heard over even inheritance when someone has died.

I don't think this is a good test for 'answer to prayer' but that is because I see a problem with money at times. I would see a better test, that God would do something personal in your life, that would make Him known to you. That is what I will pray for.

It could as rightly be said of any prayer. Any prayer "request" is exactly of the same nature as you have described. To supposedly "know" a God is as selfish a request as asking to "win a lottery". I personally would rather know the resolution of the four major forces in the universe, but like everything else it will take bright minds studying hard to resolve that sort of question and not everyone getting on their knees and praying. Get off your knees and do something - like habitat or work at a soup kitchen or anything that is not a waste of time.

BTW the lottery numbers were a loser - prayer doesn't work!

[Doubting John]

Zorathruster:

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

That's exactly what I believe.

Thanks. I'm going to use that in the future!

[zorathruster]

That's exactly what I believe.

Thanks. I'm going to use that in the future!

I believe that quote is normally attributed to Carl Sagan.

[zorathruster]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401695.html

MIT study verifies: Prayer doesn't work!

[Harfelugan]

MIT study verifies: Prayer doesn't work![/QUOTE]
They probably didn't win the lottery either . Forcing God into a controlled experiment and formulating a hypothisis based on His failure to respond within set parameters sounds like good research to me .

[zorathruster]

MIT study verifies: Prayer doesn't work!
They probably didn't win the lottery either . Forcing God into a controlled experiment and formulating a hypothisis based on His failure to respond within set parameters sounds like good research to me .

If he can't respond within structured parameters laid out by scientists what makes you think he will be able to respond any other time? Does he only work when you want him too? Does he not like scientists and likes little old ladies who are praying for the return of their kitties?

[Harfelugan]

If he can't respond within structured parameters laid out by scientists what makes you think he will be able to respond any other time? Does he only work when you want him too? Does he not like scientists and likes little old ladies who are praying for the return of their kitties?
God loves scientists,even the ones who want to put a chain around His neck and ask Him to sit or roll over. But He does tend to favor the prayers of little old ladies. Neither of them can make God dance by request though. My personal response is that God does answer prayer. But doesn't interfere with the free will of others in opposition to that prayer, is not obligated to control the wheather, win the lottery for you, make you healthy, wealthy,or much of anything else along those lines, God is not obligated to curse those in opposition to you or Himself at your request, nor to give you immediate wisdom to refute every argument you get into on tweb . However He does answer prayer and as soon as we find out what the qualifiers are the scientists are going to do another study. I'll be waiting for the results.

[FirstSunday33ad]

So you don't have any falsification criteria. Those who assert a claim, such as
"Prayer works" are responsible to defend the assertion. Your side step reveals you have no basis or ability to defend your assertion. Your argument is void of substance. Keep praying, you need something to consume your time because logic or validity is not part of your capability.

The bar is not too high. If you wish to control a study I am willing to do the hard work for you. I just went out and bought a lottery ticket. The odds according to the back are 265,477,218 to 1 of winning. My numbers are 12, 22, 33, 43, 44, 47 and powerball 11. Now if praying can make a difference go to it. If the odds of what you pray for are heavy against the occurance and you are able to effect the odds by praying, then there are the numbers. If prayer works, then heavy odds should not be a problem, especially for an omnipotent and all powerful being.

Now if you want to say that your praying can't tilt odds then admit it, you are stuck with the same odds and the same possible outcomes as all of the rest of humanity. That applies to cancer, family injury and losses, disease, and lotteries.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Here is the test, start praying or give up and admit you have no capability to effect anything through prayer.

Drawing is Wednesday 10 pm EST.

Let's interpret this shall we?

What is the criteria for validity in the hypothesis "Prayer Works"?

Well first let's define our terms. What do we mean by "works"? A quick common-sense answer would be "that which we pray for is achieved or comes to pass".

So we can expand our hypothesis to read "Prayer causes that which is prayed for to be achieved or come to pass".

Now let's define our conditions and limitations. If we are testing for validity it is not sufficient to say that if that which is prayed for does not come to pass then prayer does not work. We have to eliminate other factors from influencing the result. So now we must determine what those factors might be and eliminate them from our test.

Does prayer work if the prayer is "evil" - ie, I pray for someone to die?

The concept of prayer is that it is to a holy God who is incapable of performing or causing to be performed any act of evil - so no such a prayer would invalidate the test.

Does prayer work if the prayer is "selfish" - ie, I pray for riches, good looks or success?

No, again as prayer is to a holy God such a prayer would be "evil" and therefore invalidates the test.

Does the prayer work if the prayer is a "test" - ie, I pray for something absolutely no wants, needs or is concerned about simply to see if "God is no His game" and really "up there"?

No. As God is the creator of the universe He is not required to bow to our will or jump through any hoops we set up; therefore such a prayer would invalidate the test.

Perhaps in the interest of space and time, it would be better to set what the conditions of prayer are:

1) The prayer is recognizes God's supremacy and accepts that any answer given will be both just and right.

2) The prayer is made with trust and faith that God can and will answer even though God is not "required" to answer.

3) The prayer is a "communication" with God and not a "wish-list"

4) The prayer is worthy to be spoken to God and is not founded on greed, hate or jealousy.

5) The prayer is made from a heart that is humble before God and is not an exercise of vainity on the part of the prayee

So, from the start your "demand" for "riches" in the lottery, or else it "proves that prayer does not work" (ie, God does not exist) invalidates the test before it is even started. The answer to such a prayer will not just be silence; it will not even be heard.

And you are wrong; it is not I who have to set the conditions of the test but YOU. You are the one saying that prayer does not work, so you are the one that must set the conditions of validity.

What are your conditions for validity for the statement "Prayer Works" to be accepted as probably true - keeping in mind Karl Popper's statement about validity and working within the parameters of the conditions?

Do you even have any or are you simply asserting your own personal bias as fact?

[FirstSunday33ad]

If he can't respond within structured parameters laid out by scientists what makes you think he will be able to respond any other time? Does he only work when you want him too? Does he not like scientists and likes little old ladies who are praying for the return of their kitties?


Interesting. And what was your response to another study that showed just the opposite; that prayer does indeed work?

Keep raising that bar, it isn't quite high enough yet, some facts are still getting over.

[FirstSunday33ad]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401695.html

MIT study verifies: Prayer doesn't work!

**BOOOOOMMM****

Shifting rubble...*cough*...*cough*....

No good.....we blasted with no effect....this is the thickest block of concrete I have ever seen....BRING THE LASER....

I take you did not expect any of us to actually READ the article did you? Or maybe you only read the headline and nothing else. If you had you would have read where the researchers admit that the study was inconclusive.

[zorathruster]

**BOOOOOMMM****

Shifting rubble...*cough*...*cough*....

No good.....we blasted with no effect....this is the thickest block of concrete I have ever seen....BRING THE LASER....

I take you did not expect any of us to actually READ the article did you? Or maybe you only read the headline and nothing else. If you had you would have read where the researchers admit that the study was inconclusive.

Mark the tape! I'm about to agree with you. Yes it is inconclusive because in reality it is impossible to control for the studied object. You can't tell all the groups families, "Don't pray for this guy we are doing a study". Since no one can really explain any parameters for prayer such as how, who, when, or any of the other ways to effect "prayer parameters", there is no way to even conclude if those doing the praying are "good pray-ers".

And I won't even do it being condescending or demeaning. A feat most espoused Christians find (as evidenced by 1st Sunday's posts) too difficult.

Now lets look at your definition and see if we can determine why what you have described is circular.

"Perhaps in the interest of space and time, it would be better to set what the conditions of prayer are:

1) The prayer is recognizes God's supremacy and accepts that any answer given will be both just and right.

2) The prayer is made with trust and faith that God can and will answer even though God is not "required" to answer.

3) The prayer is a "communication" with God and not a "wish-list"

4) The prayer is worthy to be spoken to God and is not founded on greed, hate or jealousy.

5) The prayer is made from a heart that is humble before God and is not an exercise of vainity on the part of the prayee"


1. How could we possibly determine the difference between successful prayer that just happens to fall outside what is just or right iaw God's will or unsuccessful prayer? Likewise how could we tell unsuccessful prayer that just happens to work out positively from answered prayer?

2. There are favorable occurances that may not require the intervention of and active personal God. Such as the child's immune system does it's job without the intervention of God and cures his illness. How can you tell the difference. Obviously the majority of humans even atheists have immune systems that work so non-saved, non-Christians, non-theists can also benefit from the positive "non-supernatural" effects by immune systems or just plain beat the odds.

3. What prayer for relief would not fall under this catagory of a wish list? When someone prays for the strength of the nation, he is asking (wishing) for something. When someone prays for the recovery of a friend or family member they are obviously asking for something. How would you pray for something and not be able to qualify it as a "wish list"?

4. Human desires are not always founded on altruistic wants. Sometimes, like in the overwhelming incidence of illness of children are praying for their own wants and desires. Since our mental desires are a combination of motivators which include greed and jealousy how would we surgically extract that component of our psyche from the desire and how would an outside observer be able to differentiate "good prayer" from "bad prayer" which obviously won't work.

5. Sorry gotta point a few things out to you here. First the heart is a muscle and except for the feedback nerves and the control nerves, neither of which do cognitive functions the heart is a totally wrong component to generate any form of wish or desire. As far as humble, it appears you are willing to accept any possible outcome as "prayer answered". Which means you can't differentiate "prayer answered in the negative" from "prayer not answered". Since you can't show any mechanism that would be able to differentiate the two, all possible solutions fall into the "prayer answered" catagory. Your humbleness keeps your eyes closed to reality.

[FirstSunday33ad]

How could we possibly determine the difference between successful prayer that just happens to fall outside what is just or right iaw God's will or unsuccessful prayer? Likewise how could we tell unsuccessful prayer that just happens to work out positively from answered prayer?

A person who makes an unjust prayer “God, kill this person for me” is not a person who could tell the difference because such a person has no understanding of righteousness or of God. But to a person who does have such an understanding the question becomes moot since this person would know that a) any righteous prayer is answered and b) any unrighteous prayer is not even heard.

Therefore, if in a moment of weakness that person said “I pray God strikes you dead” to someone and by happenstance this person is hit by a car and killed minutes later, the person who uttered the “prayer” would still know that God did not strike the individual dead since the “prayer” was not even heard.


2. There are favorable occurrences that may not require the intervention of and active personal God. Such as the child's immune system does it's job without the intervention of God and cures his illness. How can you tell the difference? Obviously the majority of humans even atheists have immune systems that work so non-saved, non-Christians, non-theists can also benefit from the positive "non-supernatural" effects by immune systems or just plain beat the odds.

You are mixing apples with oranges. Prayer is not necessary for biological functions shared by all creatures to function. God set up our immune systems to function appropriately regardless of whether we believe in Him or not.

However, I would argue that your statement “does it job without the intervention of God” is incorrect. It does the job God designed it to do is more accurate.

3. What prayer for relief would not fall under this category of a wish list? When someone prays for the strength of the nation, he is asking (wishing) for something. When someone prays for the recovery of a friend or family member they are obviously asking for something. How would you pray for something and not be able to qualify it as a "wish list"?

Would you describe a “wish” for the recovery of a loved one as being in the same category as all other “wishes” that people make? For example; “I wish I had more money”, “I wish I was better looking”, “I wish I could travel”, “I wish I had a better job”; are these to be put in the same group as “I wish my mother gets better”? We don’t even phrase the desire like that. We are more apt to say “I pray my mother gets better”, “I want my mother to get better”, “I would give everything if my mother gets better”.

It is the desire being expressed that makes the difference. In the first grouping, the “wish” is an empty pipe-dream, a fantasy for our life to be easier and for pleasurable things to come to us without effort. It is selfish.

In the second instance, you are willing to give or sacrifice for the accomplishment of what you desire. It is not a “wish” in the sense given above; rather it is an unselfish desire for someone else. Its basis is in compassion and love.

4. Human desires are not always founded on altruistic wants. Sometimes, like in the overwhelming incidence of illness of children are praying for their own wants and desires. Since our mental desires are a combination of motivators which include greed and jealousy how would we surgically extract that component of our psyche from the desire and how would an outside observer be able to differentiate "good prayer" from "bad prayer" which obviously won't work.

It is said within philosophical circles that all acts are inherently selfish no matter how altruistic they may be. So the demand that the prayer be devoid of any benefit for the person making the prayer is unreasonable. Obviously if we pray for something to occur, there is more likely to be some personal benefit that we will receive if granted.

Therefore, it is the nature of the benefit and the reason for making the prayer that are important. It is not that I pray for a new job or extra money that is the determinate of “just” or “unjust”; it is my reasons for asking that makes the difference. Therefore, if I pray for a new job because “this one makes me work too hard”, “I hate my boss” or “leaving will show them how important I was to the company”, chances are good that this prayer will not be heard. My reasons for asking are motivated by selfish desires.

But if I make this prayer because “I need to earn more for my family”, “the hours keep me away from my loved-ones too often”, “it is ruining my health and is damaging my faith”, then the circumstances are different. The prayer is based in a desire of sacrifice and faith.

However, you are correct in that as humans we can not always be sure what is motivating us to make a certain prayer request. We may be sure that we are praying in the right spirit and for the right reasons, but secretly we are motivated by a selfish desire or pride. That is why we always pray that the answer should be made not as we wish but as God wills; this is part of the meaning of “lead us not into temptation” ie, giving us what we wrongfully want or ask for.

5. Sorry gotta point a few things out to you here. First the heart is a muscle and except for the feedback nerves and the control nerves, neither of which do cognitive functions the heart is a totally wrong component to generate any form of wish or desire. As far as humble, it appears you are willing to accept any possible outcome as "prayer answered". Which means you can't differentiate "prayer answered in the negative" from "prayer not answered". Since you can't show any mechanism that would be able to differentiate the two, all possible solutions fall into the "prayer answered" category. Your humbleness keeps your eyes closed to reality.

*Sigh*….You see this is why even when I was an agnostic and doubted that God existed I still could never be an atheist. It is the brain-dead statements that convinced me none of you knew what you were talking about.

“From the Heart”…”Heart’s Desire”…”Heart-break”….do any of these expressions mean anything to you? I should not even have to explain this to you; stop pretending to be dim.

Being “humble” does not “keep your eyes closed” and it is significant that you don’t even understand the meaning of the word. “Humble” means taking yourself off the podium of importance and allowing or putting someone else in your place. In the case of the Christian that someone is Christ.

As to an answered prayer; I do not accept “any answer” as prayer answered. In fact if you want a list of my reactions to the various outcomes of prayer I will provide it for you:

No change or no result – prayer not heard or superceded by a greater need. In case you missed that meaning this is “prayer not answered” to you.

Partial change or result different from prayer – motive for prayer was honest but granting exact request would be more harmful than good.

Exact change or result as prayed for – prayer heard and granted.

[zorathruster]

Your avoidance of the issue does not forward your cause:



Likewise how could we tell unsuccessful prayer that just happens to work out positively from answered prayer?

Hitler may have prayed to become leader of the German People. Do you say that God desired such an ends and sense it came to pass was the desired ends? That makes all happenings, including those which are evil the direct desire and action of God. You cannot say he is responsible for all that happens and then dodge "all that happens". Jews marching to the ovens were praying that they were really showers. Do you say that God then did answer their prayers, just in a way that no man would recognize as being an answer?

"However, I would argue that your statement "does it job without the intervention of God" is incorrect. It does the job God designed it to do is more accurate."

So since you are giving God credit for all the immune system of the human body, you are required to also give him responsibility for all the malformations that occur. Disease, dibilitation of body and mind ... You however will try to give him credit for the good stuff like the immune system and sidestep the times when that fails. Again your circular reasoning provides a definition of "good occurance" but doesn't allow differentiation between answers positive and negative or chance occurance positive or negative.

"as humans we can not always be sure what is motivating us to make a certain prayer request. We may be sure that we are praying in the right spirit and for the right reasons, but secretly we are motivated by a selfish desire or pride. That is why we always pray that the answer should be made not as we wish but as God wills."

To side step thusly fails to allow you to distiguish between successful prayer and mere positive outcome. There is no falsification criteria therefore you are in a circular argument.

"No change or no result – prayer not heard or superceded by a greater need. In case you missed that meaning this is "prayer not answered" to you."

I guess in your perspective there was a greater "need" for all those jews marching into the ovens. That truly disgusts me for you to assert a position that validates such an atrocity. If your God operates that way then he is as big a monster as man has ever concieved.

[FirstSunday33ad]

Likewise how could we tell unsuccessful prayer that just happens to work out positively from answered prayer?

Hitler may have prayed to become leader of the German People. Do you say that God desired such an ends and sense it came to pass was the desired ends? That makes all happenings, including those which are evil the direct desire and action of God. You cannot say he is responsible for all that happens and then dodge "all that happens". Jews marching to the ovens were praying that they were really showers. Do you say that God then did answer their prayers, just in a way that no man would recognize as being an answer?

I suspect that you have a point buried in here somewhere but it is lost in your desperation to nail prayer with something contradictory.

First off, you automatically lose credibility because you have played the Hitler card. Try to stay away from such over the top analogies as it only demeans your argument.

Even supposing that Hitler had prayed to become leader of the German people, this would have been an example of a prayer that was not heard. As stated earlier – selfish prayers or prayers for selfish reasons are not heard.

Secondly, the Jews going into the gas chambers; let’s first imagine that there were some who matched the conditions already spelled out who actually did utter a prayer that the chambers really were showers and nothing else – a bit of stretch already but seeing as we are dealing with millions of people a possibility – why were their prayers not answered?

Because there is in all things a time: a time to live and a time to die. They had reached their time. Prayer does not grant you immortality nor is it a “lucky charm” from disaster or difficulty. It is communion between you and God. Please remember; prayer is not a wish-list, a candy store or a letter to Santa.

"However, I would argue that your statement "does it job without the intervention of God" is incorrect. It does the job God designed it to do is more accurate."

So since you are giving God credit for all the immune system of the human body, you are required to also give him responsibility for all the malformations that occur. Disease, dibilitation of body and mind ... You however will try to give him credit for the good stuff like the immune system and sidestep the times when that fails. Again your circular reasoning provides a definition of "good occurance" but doesn't allow differentiation between answers positive and negative or chance occurance positive or negative.

Uh…ever hear of sin? Mankind fell into sin remember. We “ate the apple”, disobeyed, brought sin into the world. When we did that we brought in the potential for disease, debilitation, deformity and all the other nice stuff that living wrong brings you.

"as humans we can not always be sure what is motivating us to make a certain prayer request. We may be sure that we are praying in the right spirit and for the right reasons, but secretly we are motivated by a selfish desire or pride. That is why we always pray that the answer should be made not as we wish but as God wills."

To side step thusly fails to allow you to distiguish between successful prayer and mere positive outcome. There is no falsification criteria therefore you are in a circular argument.

Side-step? I think it clearly addresses the issue and answers the question. Yes, there is a possibility of a “false positives” – that is as in your example above Hitler prays to become leader of the German people – but as also stated above the conditions of a just prayer help in separating the false positives from true positives. Hence the need for a criteria of what constitutes an answered prayer if you are going to say : “Prayers are never answered”.

Your question sounds like you have determined your first characteristic of answered prayer: The result must be statistically different for honest believers versus non-believers. That is righteous prayers must have a higher rate of positive results than unrighteous prayers. Given the parameters of the test, it should be possible to make an unlimited number of unrighteous prayers and have a positive result that would determine the level of chance. This then would be the norm which righteous prayers would have to exceed by an amount significant enough to rule out chance.

"No change or no result – prayer not heard or superceded by a greater need. In case you missed that meaning this is "prayer not answered" to you."

I guess in your perspective there was a greater "need" for all those Jews marching into the ovens. That truly disgusts me for you to assert a position that validates such an atrocity. If your God operates that way then he is as big a monster as man has ever conceived.

:lol: You are such a typical atheist you should be on a poster.

So you are giving God carte-blanch to override your free will and the free will of every other human being on the planet in order that nothing ever bad happens and nobody dies before….what is the “acceptable” age for you? 75? 85? 105? When is it okay to die?

As stated above, to everything there is a time; a time to be born and a time to die. Suck it up, such is life. Deal with it.

[Doubting John]

Billy Sunday:

It seems like you have too many conditions for answered prayer, like me in the first posts.

Does prayer then die the death of a thousand qualifications or not?

Tell me this: Name one specific prayer that you have prayed or will pray today that you expect to be answered. You expect it, such that if it doesn't take place you'll sell all you have and give to the poor, or give up your faith, or move to Africa, or something drastic like that.

Now I'm not talking about nebulous prayers like "give me strength for today," or "give me peace today." And I'm not talking about things that are probably going to happen either, like "let me live another day," or, "give us this day our daily bread." I'm talking about tangible things that one wouldn't expect to happen, like "bring peace to Iraq," or "let my brother turn to Christ today," or "heal this particular person today of his terminal disease."

Would you take the bet in advance?

If you respond by saying that you shouldn't test God like that, then name me a prayer in the past where you weren't in testing mode where you would've done the things I mentioned above (sell everything, or move to Africa, for instance) if the prayer wasn't answered, when it wasn't a nebulous one, but a tangible one, where the odds were very much against that thing happening.

How about it?

Only you know the answer to that. Be honest with me. Come on, be completely honest with me before God as your witness. He's watching.

[learning]

nebulous, peace? Actually, when I once faced my own possible death, I mean 'possibly dying of ovarian cancer' in my late 30's, I read up on the stuff while I waited to go to the hospital. I remember my parents had said, that they had asked the church they were going to, to pray for me. I read about the chances of ovarian cancer, they were 1/3 to live,2/3rds to die.

It hit me, or rather, I sunk with the realization, 'I might not see my kids grow up, might not attend their graduations, might not see their weddings' and I began to sink into the black hole of cancer. I don't think anyone else, if they have not faced the possible reality of cancer or some other terminal illness, can even understand. But all of a sudden, I felt this peace lift me up, and I could only think 'I'll do whatever it takes, either fight the cancer, or die fighting, but I know, God will be with me." And He was, and the growth wasn't cancerous, but that peace was real. (Phil 4:7)

Don't ever tell me that the peace of God isn't something worthy of prayer.

[Doubting John]

Learning:

Don't ever tell me that the peace of God isn't something worthy of prayer.

I won't, because sometimes I too pray for inner peace. And I still appreciate prayers for my wife.

By the word "nebulous" I intended to convey something non-quantifiable, that is, something that cannot be seen--just felt. Because, a believer who offers a prayer for peace will itself bring himself peace. This prayer is experienced as answered by most all of the people who have ever prayed it, because it can be self-fulfilled, just like positive thinking. Muslims, Catholics, and Jews too can testify that their God answered their prayer for inner peace, while many Christians will say that the inner peace these people felt probably didn't come from God, but it was self-induced peace because they believed in the prayer to their God.

[learning]

I already said twice on here, I intend to stay away from apologetics, but, have you ever read of George Muller, and the orphanages that he ran in England on faith? I just have heard that they really went by prayer, and some mornings, even prayed for the food to come for their breakfast, and it did!
www.wholesomewords.org/biography/bmuller.html

[Shadow Phoenix]

JOhn. I know we have our differences, but I really do pray for your wife. I have been watching what you type really trying to understand your world. I have some ideas and such on what's going on. My financial resources are extremely slacking and I happen to have a virus now myself, but when I recover from it, I plan to go to the library and see if I can order your book. If it's good enough, I'll buy it later on.

Anyhow, on to the question.

First off, I think we're assuming something about prayer and forget its main purpose. Prayer is not our cosmic wish list. Yes. God tells us to present our requests to him, but that is not the sole purpose of prayer.

Prayer is also a time to reflect on God and who he is and come to a greater understanding of him. No. I'm not advocating prayer as a dialogue either. I never see anything in Scripture indicating that you talk to God and then he talks back and you answer him. I think this belief has done too much damage to Christians who think there's something wrong with them because they don't hear the voice of God.

Now do prayers get answered. YES! However, some prayers do get unanswered. Of course, this is focusing on the request side. I will say the sincere prayer for more light would always be answered.

Now if God answered yes every time, we would have chaos. (Remember Bruce Almighty?) If he answered no all the time, no one would probably pray. However, when he answers yes, do not expect fireworks to appear outside your house and a big booming voice from Heaven saying "Yo John! What'd you think of that?!"

In truth, chances are, maybe we should be praying other prayers. Prayers to be more holy, or to have a greater desire to do evangelism, or a greater desire to avoid sin, or that we might know him who died for us better. We might be surprised how many prayers get answered "Yes' then. And yes, I'm included in that group.

[Harfelugan]

[Tell me this: Name one specific prayer that you have prayed or will pray today that you expect to be answered. You expect it, such that if it doesn't take place you'll sell all you have and give to the poor, or give up your faith, or move to Africa, or something drastic like that.]
Oops! This prayer has already been disqualified by placing conditions on God , but if your very fortunate He may meet the request at His own leisure just because thats the kind of guy He is.
[Now I'm not talking about nebulous prayers like "give me strength for today," or "give me peace today." And I'm not talking about things that are probably going to happen either, like "let me live another day," or, "give us this day our daily bread."] Nebulous prayers are very important if that is what you are desirious to recieve . See Micheal Jacksons Qoutes in his Man in the Mirror song. "I believe the historical dating is accurate on this and there have been no claims of textual corruption or disqualification due to a Christian bias". Jehovahs Witnesses are excluded from that list aren't they or is that dependant on whether they are in agreement with you on the issue at hand. [I'm talking about tangible things that one wouldn't expect to happen, like "bring peace to Iraq," or "let my brother turn to Christ today," or "heal this particular person today of his terminal disease."

Would you take the bet in advance?]
These are good ones, a loving God God would have to to fulfill these just on merit alone or lose all credibility now wouldn't He. Especially when He has even asked us to pray for these kind of things . But He isn't obligated to meet our request on these type of issues. Because, He is God, and I am not. And whether He is real or not , or does answer prayer or not cannot be proven on the grounds of any test where God is the test subject because if He can be controlled then we'd be God and He'd be not.
[If you respond by saying that you shouldn't test God like that, then name me a prayer in the past where you weren't in testing mode where you would've done the things I mentioned above (sell everything, or move to Africa, for instance) if the prayer wasn't answered, when it wasn't a nebulous one, but a tangible one, where the odds were very much against that thing happening.

How about it?]
I've thrown temper tantrums before with every authority figure I've ever had and the ones who really cared about me have always told me that they wre the ones in charge and I should trust trust them or go out on my own and write a book about my bad experience if I didn't like it.
[Only you know the answer to that. Be honest with me. Come on, be completely honest with me before God as your witness. He's watching.][/QUOTE]
Left the last one for you because if you wont listen to anyone else you might listen to yourself, unlike Micheal Jackson

[Doubting John]

Nick,

You and I are people, after all, aren't we? You have a virus, my wife might have cancer (not positive about this yet).

And yes we have had our differences. But I can see we can both be polite and gracious, and I like that.

First off, I think we're assuming something about prayer and forget its main purpose. Prayer is not our cosmic wish list. Yes. God tells us to present our requests to him, but that is not the sole purpose of prayer.

I can agree.

Prayer is also a time to reflect on God and who he is and come to a greater understanding of him.

Through self-reflection and God-reflection, I suppose.

Now do prayers get answered. YES! Now if God answered yes every time, we would have chaos. (Remember Bruce Almighty?) If he answered no all the time, no one would probably pray. However, when he answers yes, do not expect fireworks to appear outside your house and a big booming voice from Heaven saying "Yo John! What'd you think of that?!"
Good movie, and on the whole I can agree.

In truth, chances are, maybe we should be praying other prayers. Prayers to be more holy, or to have a greater desire to do evangelism, or a greater desire to avoid sin, or that we might know him who died for us better. We might be surprised how many prayers get answered "Yes' then. And yes, I'm included in that group.

Absolutely. But this seems to be a liberal view of prayer, I believe. But I can agree with you, that this is what A Christian should be praying.

Thanks.

Roger,

I just don't know what to say about your post. That's a first! Won't be the last.

[!Fluffy!]

I noticed in the "Chaplain's Office" people are praying for my wife who has been diagnosed with cancer. Thank you very much for your concern, and I sure would like to think it can help, but I really don't think so. You might prove me wrong, but here's what I think:

The Problem of Unanswered Prayer.

...etc.

A FINAL THOUGHT—Even though there are many qualifications for answered prayer we are told not to be timid in prayer. Jesus encouraged us to pray with expectation. In Hebrews 4:16 we are encouraged to come confidently before God’s throne of grace. Even when we are unsure what to pray for we are assured that God can read the thoughts of our hearts (Romans 8:26-27). But with all of the qualifications this is extremely hard to do. These qualifications are set up as a brick wall to our expecting anything from God.

As a mature Christian having slogged through much of this same sort of mind-funk for years, let me share something with you. I am not being flippant, nor am I trying to oversimplify. In practical terms there is but one prayer we can pray with confidence and which will always help / nurture our personal relationship with Christ, bringing with it the proper perspective as His servants:

The Prayer That Is Always Answered:

"Thy will be done".

[zorathruster]

Even supposing that Hitler had prayed to become leader of the German people, this would have been an example of a prayer that was not heard. As stated earlier – selfish prayers or prayers for selfish reasons are not heard.

Secondly, the Jews going into the gas chambers; let’s first imagine that there were some who matched the conditions already spelled out who actually did utter a prayer that the chambers really were showers and nothing else – a bit of stretch already but seeing as we are dealing with millions of people a possibility – why were their prayers not answered?

Because there is in all things a time: a time to live and a time to die. They had reached their time. Prayer does not grant you immortality nor is it a “lucky charm” from disaster or difficulty. It is communion between you and God. Please remember; prayer is not a wish-list, a candy store or a letter to Santa.



Uh…ever hear of sin? Mankind fell into sin remember. We “ate the apple”, disobeyed, brought sin into the world. When we did that we brought in the potential for disease, debilitation, deformity and all the other nice stuff that living wrong brings you.



Side-step? I think it clearly addresses the issue and answers the question. Yes, there is a possibility of a “false positives” – that is as in your example above Hitler prays to become leader of the German people – but as also stated above the conditions of a just prayer help in separating the false positives from true positives. Hence the need for a criteria of what constitutes an answered prayer if you are going to say : “Prayers are never answered”.

Your question sounds like you have determined your first characteristic of answered prayer: The result must be statistically different for honest believers versus non-believers. That is righteous prayers must have a higher rate of positive results than unrighteous prayers. Given the parameters of the test, it should be possible to make an unlimited number of unrighteous prayers and have a positive result that would determine the level of chance. This then would be the norm which righteous prayers would have to exceed by an amount significant enough to rule out chance.




So you are giving God carte-blanch to override your free will and the free will of every other human being on the planet in order that nothing ever bad happens and nobody dies before….what is the “acceptable” age for you? 75? 85? 105? When is it okay to die?

As stated above, to everything there is a time; a time to be born and a time to die. Suck it up, such is life. Deal with it.

I will try to make it simple for your simple mind: If you give God credit for directing everything, he is then responsible for "everything". He is responsible for all the atrocities as well as all the goodness. You cannot say he is partially responsible for only the "good" things that happen and off load the responsibility for maloccurance to innocents or "Free will". A newly born child afflicted with Downs syndrome cannot be held accountable for free will violations. Yet you are saying that God is responsible for normal human attributes such as our immune system which means he is also responsible for the genetic anomolies which pop up. If you want to call genetic arrangement "designed" then the various experiments and deformations are the burden of the designer.