To LDS and former LDS ONLY!!

[Bill the Cat]

I don’t want to be accused of not understanding or misrepresenting Mormonism, so here starts my list of Q&A hopefully answered by Mark, Kevin, and even John Powell would be welcome to put in his 2 cents. I’d also like Xmansmommy and any other former LDS to answer from their recollection how they were taught

OK, I promised to do this, so here goes the first of hopefully many :btc:

Let’s get some terms defined first from how I perceive LDS doctrine (correct me if I am wrong):

1. Elohim is Heavenly Father

2. Exalted means obedience to one’s Heavenly Father and following all the ordinances and commands of said deity.

I’ll start and format questions where they can be answered succinctly or detailed.
Please reference any scripture used, including BOM, PGP, D&C, Bible, and any statement made as “revelation” by former or current prophets



1. Was Elohim a human on another planet before He was exalted?

2. Were there any other humans on that planet that obeyed their Savior?

3. Were those obedient on that planet exalted as well?

4. Did those who were exalted gain the power to create worlds?

5. How is Elohim unique if those others were able to do all that He is able to do?



And this line as well


1. Did Elohim have any children while a mortal?

2. Did they get sealed for time and eternity while mortal?

3. Could we assume that at least one of them obeyed their savior and became a god?

4. As sons, do they have to go thru mortality again here? Or are they just “along for the ride”?




Oh, Mod comments are welcome too...

[yxboom]

This belongs in the Liberal Arts Dept.

[Bill the Cat]

But no one ever looks here :bawl:

[John Powell]

BILL THE CAT:
I don’t want to be accused of not understanding or misrepresenting Mormonism, so here starts my list of Q&A hopefully answered by Mark, Kevin, and even John Powell would be welcome to put in his 2 cents.


POWELL:
Perhaps I can add significantly more than just "2 cents". My tag "JOHN MORMON" will be from my former believers point of view.

BILL THE CAT:
I’d also like Xmansmommy and any other former LDS to answer from their recollection how they were taught

OK, I promised to do this, so here goes the first of hopefully many

Let’s get some terms defined first from how I perceive LDS doctrine (correct me if I am wrong):

1. Elohim is Heavenly Father


JOHN MORMON:
Right, meaning He's the spiritual father of all of us and both the spiritual and physical father of Jesus and He dwells in heaven. Do you want Biblical and LDS references for this?

BILL THE CAT:
2. Exalted means obedience to one’s Heavenly Father and following all the ordinances and commands of said deity.


JOHN MORMON:
No. That's the requirement to become exalted.

Exalted is a state of being that essentially means "resurrected with a glorified body in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom." Everyone who has lived on Earth will resurrect with an "immortal" (never to die) body, but those who, due to their obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel, are "exalted" receive glorious immortal bodies and are heirs of the highest degree of the celestial kingdom.

"Eternal Life" is an associated term that means "God's life" or "life like God is living it" since "Eternal" is another name for God.

BILL THE CAT:
I’ll start and format questions where they can be answered succinctly or detailed.

Please reference any scripture used, including BOM, PGP, D&C, Bible, and any statement made as "revelation" by former or current prophets

1. Was Elohim a human on another planet before He was exalted?


JOHN MORMON:
Yes.

John 5: 19 (KJV):
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

JOHN MORMON:
Jesus was a spirit child of exalted parents, became a God in His own right while still a spirit, became the only begotten physical son of His spiritual Father on Earth, was a Savior to His spirit brethren (us), and resurrected to exaltation and eternal life.

The Father of Jesus must have done essentially the same thing earlier, but on another planet in behalf of His own spirit brethren and under the direction of His own Spiritual Father, who would be the spiritual "grandfather" of Jesus.

http://www.helpingmormons.org/follet.htm

JOSEPH SMITH IN KING FOLLET DISCOURSE:
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible, -- I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power" -- to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious -- in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you doing (sic) to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

BILL THE CAT:
2. Were there any other humans on that planet that obeyed their Savior?


JOHN MORMON:
Presumably yes, otherwise things would not have been similar enough to the case of Jesus declared in John 5:19. It would not have made sense for Elohim to have tried to be a Savior to His spirit brethren, but doomed to fail. I don't know if there are good references to this position and those I present below since these questions are not typically discussed in general conferences or in books by the general authorities since they are generally deemed "not essential to our salvation."

BILL THE CAT:
3. Were those obedient on that planet exalted as well?


JOHN MORMON:
Presumably yes. I think most Mormons believe that the current plan of Salvation is the exact same one that has always been used, but I personally believe (POWELL: believed) that the plan has been gradually improving over time. That's one of the reasons I think that Satan's plan had some persuasive power. If the plan had been "fixed in stone" it wouldn't have made much sense for someone to suggest something to replace the "tried and true."

BILL THE CAT:
4. Did those who were exalted gain the power to create worlds?


JOHN MORMON:
Presumably yes.

BILL THE CAT:
5. How is Elohim unique if those others were able to do all that He is able to do?


JOHN MORMON:
Everyone is unique, Bill, even identical twins.

Perhaps you mean to ask how Elohim can be the only God if there are so many others. What that probably means is that Elohim is the only supreme being to which we need concern ourselves. He is the supreme member of the Godhead for Earth. Although Jehovah (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost are also Gods for Earth, Elohim is supreme. However, It could also mean that there is only one Godhead or presidency of Gods over Earth. It could also mean that the members of the Godhead don't argue with each other like the pagan gods presumably did. If Elohim says "X" then you would expect Jehovah to also say "X," not like what might happen with mortal parents.

BILL THE CAT:
And this line as well

1. Did Elohim have any children while a mortal?


JOHN MORMON:
Unknown to me. Most Mormons probably would think no, but I believe (POWELL: believed) likely yes partly because I believe that Jesus had four children (two each with the sisters Martha and Mary). This was because my visionary grandfather had a dream showing such a thing.

BILL THE CAT:
2. Did they get sealed for time and eternity while mortal?


JOHN MORMON:
Presumably yes.

BILL THE CAT:
3. Could we assume that at least one of them obeyed their savior and became a god?


JOHN MORMON:
Sure, that would be expected.

BILL THE CAT:
4. As sons, do they have to go thru mortality again here? Or are they just "along for the ride"?


JOHN MORMON:
Mormons do not believe in reincarnation. You only need to be physically born once and resurrected once, but children who die might be able to be raised by their worthy parents during the millenium.

I don't understand what you're getting at. The hypothetical physical children of Elohim on the planet in which He was the Savior are not necessarily associated with the Earth in any significant way. They might be too involved in serving the role as the supreme God or Mother God of their own planet somewhere else.

BILL THE CAT:
Oh, Mod comments are welcome too...


JOHN MORMON:
If you want to debate these questions that would be appropriate in a different section of TWEB.

John Powell.

[Bill the Cat]

Thanks John, I'll reserve comment until after a few others have posted.

[Marc Schindler]

1. Was Elohim a human on another planet before He was exalted?

2. Were there any other humans on that planet that obeyed their Savior?

3. Were those obedient on that planet exalted as well?

4. Did those who were exalted gain the power to create worlds?

5. How is Elohim unique if those others were able to do all that He is able to do?

1. No idea. One presumes so, but it is far from being core doctrine.
2. No idea. Not even close to core doctrine.
3-5. As I can't answer 1 or 2, 3-5 can't be answered either.

and...

1. Did Elohim have any children while a mortal?

2. Did they get sealed for time and eternity while mortal?

3. Could we assume that at least one of them obeyed their savior and became a god?

4. As sons, do they have to go thru mortality again here? Or are they just “along for the ride”?


1. No idea.
2. Probably.
3. Probably, but we don't know.
4. No idea.

These are all interesting questions and it's always the exotica that one is attracted to, but the simple fact of the matter is that while there exists speculation on this, none of it is considered even close to being core doctrine.

I'm sorry, I know my answers must be disappointing, and I'm not trying to play silly games, but am answering the questions as best I know how. The only question even anywhere near this that I think I can answer is that "elohim" can be a proper name for a single being (Heavenly Father) or it can be a general term for gods, but can also mean other things. It depends on the context.

[John Powell]

POWELL:
I will post a debate challenge to Marc. It will be in the "Coach's Quarters" section.

I'm not sure what Marc thinks "core" Mormon doctrine is, but presumably he means to exclude everything that is considered a "mystery."

Perhaps the best example of "core" Mormon doctrine would be the LDS Articles of Faith.

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html

These questions that you're asking, Bill, would probaby be considered among those "mysteries not essential to our salvation" by the vast majority of modern Mormons. If you asked early leaders of the Church, however, you might have gotten a different answer from some of them.

Perhaps only Mormons like much of my extended family who were intensely interested in such things and who believed they could get answers to the mysteries in dreams and such things would find such ideas sufficiently important to seriously consider them and would genuinely want to have the truth of them revealed to us in dreams and by the power of the Holy Ghost.

D&C 130:18-19
18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

POWELL:
My family believed that some doctrines were more important than others and it was a grave mistake to focus on the mysteries without properly following the basics, but we also believed that if we were to learn the answers to the mysteries then we would be ahead in our eternal progression. God was ready to reveal the answers if we were really ready to receive them.

Matt. 7: 7 (KJV):
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Joel 2: 28 (KJV, quoted in Acts 2:17):
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

POWELL:
We interpreted this to mean that more than just the Prophet would have the mysteries revealed to them.

There was, however, the "keys" problem that the Prophet was the one with the God-given keys to declare the answers to such things to the whole church. How we dealt with that was to imagine that it was ok for us to know the truth and to share it with a few people who might have questions about it and to present it as a "maybe it's like this" sort of thing.

I speak in terms of the past, but that only applies to myself. Most of the believers among my family still think this way.

John Powell
A former believer in Mormonism.
Now an athe-ist or strong atheist.

[Xmansmommy]

:btc: great questions! I think JP did a great job answering them. But since you asked, I will do my best to address them to the best of my ability either tonight or tomorrow. :thumb:

[Bill the Cat]

Thanx Mark and Xmansmommy. I want Kevin to respond and hopefully exmo-robertson. Any other member that is LDS or RLDS or former are welcome too.

[kiwimac]

Bill,

The RLDS / Community of Christ has NEVER believed or taught Brigham Young's doctrine which was so-well articulated by the late LDS Apostle LeGrand Richards in the now famous " As man is God once was, as God is Man may become."

Simply put there is no room in RLDS doctrine for the teaching.

Kiwimac

[Bill the Cat]

Thanks Kiwi. I figured as much, but I wanted it in writing. :teeth:

[Exmo-Robertson]

Bill
I know you asked for my input on this thread, but to be honest, John did a great job of responding and gave most of the answers I would have said.
Besides, I'm not going to talk to you until you tell me how I can add a picture on the left side of my post like everyone else. :teeth:

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 02:22 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=124207#post124207)
Exmo-Robertson:

Bill
I know you asked for my input on this thread, but to be honest, John did a great job of responding and gave most of the answers I would have said.
Besides, I'm not going to talk to you until you tell me how I can add a picture on the left side of my post like everyone else. :teeth:

:rant:



:rofl: Keep posting. Go to the dorm and spam away. You'll get your avatar quickly like that.

[HemofHisGarment]

I agree with JP's answers, but also with Marc's. These may be interesting to study out, but are really unnecessary to one's basic faith in Christ, i.e. looking beyond the mark. And not to be rude, but Kiwi is not LDS, right? RLDS is not the same..wouldn't those differences be worked out in a new thread? Also, I think it's interesting that xmansmommy is using the LDS artwork for an avatar. Anyway, to repeat myself - just putting in my two cents worth though my thoughts are really only worth a penny.:hi:

[kiwimac]

Hem of his garment you write

I agree with JP's answers, but also with Marc's. These may be interesting to study out, but are really unnecessary to one's basic faith in Christ, i.e. looking beyond the mark. And not to be rude, but Kiwi is not LDS, right? RLDS is not the same..wouldn't those differences be worked out in a new thread? Also, I think it's interesting that xmansmommy is using the LDS artwork for an avatar. Anyway, to repeat myself - just putting in my two cents worth though my thoughts are really only worth a penny.:hi:

I used to be an LDS Elder, now I'm a Community of Christ (RLDS) Elder.

Kiwimac

[Bill the Cat]

I'm gonna give this 1 more week and then I'll have the final word.

(sorry Bill O'Reilley flashback)

[John Powell]

POWELL:
You can have the last word here, Bill, but where are the other questions for LDS that I thought you were going to ask?

One of the claims of Mormonism is that they have the answers to the important questions that other religions don't. I used to believe that, but now I think they just usually have better answers than other major religions, but still inferior answers to atheism.

John Powell
A former believer in Mormonism.
Now an athe-ist or strong atheist.

[Bill the Cat]

One subject at a time, my friend. That's all for now. I'll start a new thread with another line of questions after this one closes. Would you like a PM when it goes up?

[John Powell]

KIWIMAC:
I used to be an LDS Elder, now I'm a Community of Christ (RLDS) Elder.


POWELL:
I hope I'm not out of line for asking this question in Bill's thread, but could you explain some of the important differences between being an LDS Elder and a Community of Christ Elder?

John Powell

[John Powell]

Bill the Cat:
One subject at a time, my friend. That's all for now. I'll start a new thread with another line of questions after this one closes. Would you like a PM when it goes up?


POWELL:
That would be nice.

John Powell

[Bill the Cat]

Cool, thanks...

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 03:15 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=126693#post126693)
John Powell:



POWELL:
I hope I'm not out of line for asking this question in Bill's thread, but could you explain some of the important differences between being an LDS Elder and a Community of Christ Elder?

John Powell

Sure John, I'm curious too. :btc:

[Reasonable]

Bill,
Sorry to jump in on your discussion but I would also like to know who was the first Elohim? I mean, someone got the ball rolling, right? Is he the great-great-great-great-Grandfather of Jesus or just who is the big cheese?

Thanks

[Bill the Cat]

Reasonable, that may very well be my next line of questions. :thumb:

:btc:

[Xmansmommy]

1. Was Elohim a human on another planet before He was exalted?

2. Were there any other humans on that planet that obeyed their Savior?

3. Were those obedient on that planet exalted as well?

4. Did those who were exalted gain the power to create worlds?

5. How is Elohim unique if those others were able to do all that He is able to do?
:btc:, I think JP answered these questions FAR better than I ever could. I never knew some of the LDS teachings until after I left the church. And others I have replaced with sound doctrine and have forgotten, PTL! But, since you asked for my feedback though, here goes..... Sorry to disappoint ya. :wink:
As far as I was taught, Elohim was a human who became a God. Not sure about whether or not it was on another planet however.
I'm not sure what they teach regarding there being any humans on the planet that obeyed Him. The hard part about these questions Bill, is that these "deeper doctrinal issues" aren't taught every day. You bring up some very interesting questions. Sorry I can't help more.
I believe one of the passages the LDS use to teach that Elohim was once a man that became a God who also suffered and died is this passage......

Joh:5:19: Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Taken out of context of course. :hrm:
I've specifically asked a few Mormons......"Does that mean that Elohim also died on a cross to bring salvation to a people?" with no real answer, but from one member who was willing to answer, "yes." I guess fear of speculation is a great reason, not to seek truth. Go figure.

[Xmansmommy]

06-16-2003 @ 10:43 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=125000#post125000)
HemofHisGarment:

Also, I think it's interesting that xmansmommy is using the LDS artwork for an avatar.


Hello there Hem! :smile:
While I disagree with most LDS doctrine, I still know they have some very nice portraits. I was looking for a Jesus avatar for favorite author's week, and Jesus happens to be the author and finisher of our faith, so His portrait was very appropriate. :xmm:

[kiwimac]

Yesterday @ 08:15 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=126693#post126693)
John Powell:



POWELL:
I hope I'm not out of line for asking this question in Bill's thread, but could you explain some of the important differences between being an LDS Elder and a Community of Christ Elder?

John Powell

John & Bill,

In the LDS church the Eldership is kind of a "place to put people in order to see what develops", kinda. If you are an elder and you are worthy, odds are that you will become a high priest sooner or later.

In the Community of Christ the Eldership is seen as the basic priesthood (Melchizedec) role from which all else springs. So, Elders lead congregations, undertake specialist ministries, are the closest thing we have to the generic "minister" / "priest" of other churches. While 70s and Hp's have specific functions ALL of those functions are built on the foundation of the eldership.

The difference, in the final analysis, is kinda like the pessimist vs. optimist picture of the glass and its contents!

Kiwimac

[John Powell]

POWELL:
Thanks KIWIMAC for your answers to the "Elder" question!

XMANSMOMMY:
I've specifically asked a few Mormons......"Does that mean that Elohim also died on a cross to bring salvation to a people?" with no real answer, but from one member who was willing to answer, "yes." I guess fear of speculation is a great reason, not to seek truth. Go figure.


JOHN MORMON:
If I had been asked that question then I would have replied something like the following:

I don't know. Possibly Elohim was crucified, but not necessarily. Elohim presumably died in a painful way, and crucifixion is one of the most painful methods. However, the painful part of the atonement of Jesus occurred primarily in the Garden, not on the cross. In fact, Jesus didn't survive as long on the cross as many others. Elohim should have been able to suffer a similar situation in some garden / forest or something like that regardless of the actual method of His death.

REASONABLE:
Bill,
Sorry to jump in on your discussion but I would also like to know who was the first Elohim? I mean, someone got the ball rolling, right? Is he the great-great-great-great-Grandfather of Jesus or just who is the big cheese?

Thanks


JOHN MORMON:
I have some ideas taken from some things that the Prophet Joseph Smith said.

http://www.helpingmormons.org/follet.htm

JOSEPH SMITH:
We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. [Referred to the old Bible.] How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, "God made man out of the earth, and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body."

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is coequal with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth.

I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal with our Father in heaven.

I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man -- on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man -- the immortal part, because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two, then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning it will have an end. All the fools and learned wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.


JOHN MORMON:
Although Joseph spoke in terms of the father of Jesus, I've imagined this "standing in the midst of others" applies also to the first God.

D&C 88: 40
40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.

JOHN MORMON:
I imagine that in the beginning there were only intelligences, no spirits, no physical bodies. Because intelligences are naturally attracted to each other (something like gravity maybe) they tend to become larger and more complicated. At some point some became self-aware. One of the first to do this was the first God. These earliest entities slowly progressed and at some point one of them learned that changing their state into a "spirit" was an improvement. Perhaps intelligences only understand things in terms of black and white, yes and no, whereas spirits can understand gradations of a continuum. I don't know, but anyways, I imagine that there were valuable advantages to this alternative state and other intelligences were helped to make the transition. Later, it was found that uniting the spirit with a "physical body" an arrangement of lesser intelligences provided other benefits. Perhaps such a being can "feel" truth in ways that a spirit can't. Again, I don't know what all the advantages might be, but there presumably are many. This whole process was very slow going the first time because it had to be discovered.

However, after the method was discovered it began to be improved, streamlined. We live long after these early discoveries about the laws of progression. Consequently, today many billions of intelligences can gain spirit bodies from great entities, a God and a Goddess. A planet is then fashioned for them where they can obtain physical bodies. Later, similar looking bodies, but glorious and immortal, are given to them.

I don't know how many generations the Gods go back, but it could be quite a few. What are those earliest Gods doing today? I don't know. Maybe they're "retired," serving in an advisory role. Maybe they've been passed in progression by others who came later, but advanced faster. On the other hand, maybe they've gone on to higher planes of existence.

D&C 130: 10
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

JOHN MORMON:
Evidently, the highest degree of the celestial kingdom is not the highest plane of existence there is because those who obtain that glory can learn about even "higher order of kingdoms" than the one they are in. At least, that's one way to interprete these words.

When I presented these ideas to my LDS philosophy teacher at BYU in a required religious / philosophical paper he discounted it for being "mechanistic" (because it's basically due due to the natural attraction of intelligences).

I don't know how much of this is true, but it's sometimes fun to think about. Presumably we'll learn all this after we die.

John Powell.
A former believer in Mormonism.
Now an athe-ist or strong atheist.

[Reasonable]

Thanks John. So is this basically an evolution of the Gods? From "intelligence" to spirits to Gods? And is this your opinion or is this official? I see what Joseph Smith said but I was just wondering if your comments were your interpretation of it or if it is written similar to that in an LDS book.

[John Powell]

REASONABLE:
Thanks John. So is this basically an evolution of the Gods? From "intelligence" to spirits to Gods?


JOHN MORMON (Mormon believer):
Yes.

Rather than answering the question about the first God with the typical answer that God always was God, I've suggested a scenario similar to the evolutionary description of life on Earth. God became such in little steps like biological populations have evolved after billions of years of generally slow changes. Rather than having the mind of God always in the background making things happen, this scenario makes the existence of God a natural consequence of eternal laws.

REASONABLE:
And is this your opinion or is this official? I see what Joseph Smith said but I was just wondering if your comments were your interpretation of it or if it is written similar to that in an LDS book.


JOHN MORMON (Mormon believer):
My answers to "the first God" question are NOT OFFICIAL DOCTRINE. The fact that my LDS philosophy teacher at BYU rejected them helps to show that. Some of my ideas about the intelligences came from what Cleon Skousen taught. Skousen is a popular LDS writer and speaker, but he's not a general authority of the Church.

Perhaps the following can be considered official LDS doctrine:

As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. Elohim was not always God, but achieved that exalted position. We began as intelligences, obtained spirit bodies from Elohim and Mother in Heaven, obtained physical bodies from our Earthly parents and will one day resurrect with immortal bodies. If we obey all the commandments we can become exalted like our Father in Heaven and our spirit Brother Jesus Christ who have gone through a similar pattern of progression.

I've tried to follow the teachings of Joseph Smith to speculate how the gaps in our understanding of these things might be logically filled. I feel like I was inspired to come up with these.

POWELL (atheist):
As a believing Mormon, I preferred a plausible answer to religious questions rather than what I too often heard from my religious teachers: "we don't know and it doesn't really matter." One of the reasons I remained a believer as long as I did was because my mother's family were the kind of people who could come up with plausible answers to my religious questions.

John Powell

[kiwimac]

John,

That gels with my remembrance of LDS doctrine. Gosh, would you believe I used to teach Gospel Doctrine.


Kiwimac

[Exmo-Robertson]

Hi Bill
Since your questions are mostly concerning what Mormons call the "Plan of Salvation" I'm going to give some real quotes from the leaders that are related:

"The spirit of a vegetable is in the same image and likeness of its tabernacle, and of the same magnitude, for it fills every part thereof....If the spirit of an apple tree were rendered visible when separated from its natural tabernacle, it would appear in the form, likeness, and magnitude of the natural apple tree;....When the spiritual vegetable withdraws, the natural one decays and returns to its original elements; but its spirit, being a living substance, remains in its organized form, capable of happiness in its own sphere, and will again inhabit a celestial tabernacle when all things are made new....we are compelled to believe that every vegetable, whether great or small, has a living intelligent spirit capable of feeling, knowing, and rejoicing in its sphere," The Seer Page 33&34.

"When a world is redeemed from its fallen state, and made into a Heaven, all the animal creation are raised from the dead, and become celestial and immortal. The food of these animals is derived from the vegetables, growing on a celestial soil; consequently, it is not converted into blood, but into spirit which circulates in the veins of these animals; therefore, their offspring will be spiritual bodies, instead of flesh and bones....when planted in a celestial soil, each vegetable derives its nourishment therefrom; and the fluid thus derived, circulates in the pores and cells of the vegetable tabernacle, and preserves it from decay and death; this same fluid, thus circulating, forms a spiritual vegetable; this differs from the parent vegetables in Heaven....Thus the spirits of both vegetables and animals are the offspring of male and female parents which have been raised from the dead, or redeemed from a fallen condition, with the world upon which they dwelt." The Seer Page 37-38.

"Admitting the eternity of the capacities, open the materials of which our spirits are composed, must have been capable of thinking, moving , willing &c., before they were organized in the womb of the celestial female....If they were once organized in the vegetable kingdom, and then disorganized by becoming the food of celestial animals, and then again re-organized in the form of the spirits of animals which is a higher sphere of being, then, is it unreasonable to suppose that the same particles have, from all eternity, been passing through an endless chain of unions and disunions, organizations and disorganizations, until at length they are permitted to enter into the highest and most exalted sphere of organization in the image and likeness of God? A transmigration of the same particles of spirits from a lower to a higher organization, is demonstrated from the fact that the same particles exist in a diffused scattered state, mingled with other matter; next they exist in a united form, growing out of the earth in the shape of grass, herbs, and trees; and after this, these vegetables become food for celestial animals, and these same particles are organized into their offspring, and thus form the spirits of animals. Here then, is apparently a transmigration of the same particles of spirit from an inferior to a superior organization, wherein their condition is improved, and their sphere of action enlarged, Who shall set any bounds to this upward tendency of spirit?...who shall say that it will not progress until it shall gain the very summit of perfection,...the image of God?" The Seer Page 102-103.


"The Earth's Plan of Salvation."
A. "...blessing be to God that I live on an earth that lives....well, it is truth....Do you believe that a dead woman can conceive from a live man and bring forth a live child?...No, you know better. Well, if a woman will not produce when she is dead, then the earth cannot produce living things if it was dead....Where did the earth come from? From its parent earths." Heber C. Kimball-Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, pp 35-36.

B. "...this earth was created first as a spirit, and that it was thereafter clothed upon with tangle, physical element." Bruce R. McConkie-Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 210-211

C. "..the earth itself is passing through a plan of salvation. It was created (the equivalent of birth); it fell to its present mortal or telestial state; it was baptized by immersion, when the universal flood swept over its entire surface...it will be baptized by fire...in the day when it is renewed and receives its paradisiacal glory; it will die; and finally it will be quickened (or resurrected) and become a celestial sphere." Ibid., pp. 251-252

D. "This earth is living and must die, but since it keeps the law it shall be restored through the resurrection by which it shall become celestialized...The earth as a living body, will have to die and be resurrected, for it too, has been redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ." Joseph Fielding Smith-Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, pp. 73-74.

These are Pearls Of Great Price!!! :-)

[Bill the Cat]

06-21-2003 @ 03:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=129575#post129575)
Exmo-Robertson:

Hi Bill

... These are Pearls Of Great Price!!! :-)

:btc: :rofl: :btc:


I'll get to the responses later today. I'll also post my second line of questions...

[Bill the Cat]

OK, I've compiled the answers and I'd like to comment on what I think of them. No rebuttal is necessary since these are my personal feelings. I'll start a new line tomorrow. John, I'll give you a PM when it's up. Thanks everyone for your help.



1. Was Elohim a human on another planet before He was exalted?

John Powell: (former LDS)
Yes.

Mark Schindler (LDS)
No idea. One presumes so, but it is far from being core doctrine

Kiwimac : (RLDS / Community of Christ)
The RLDS / Community of Christ has NEVER believed or taught Brigham Young's doctrine which was so-well articulated by the late LDS Apostle LeGrand Richards in the now famous " As man is God once was, as God is Man may become."


OK, this is a debated subject. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and LeGrand Richards at least spoke to the affirmative. As far as it not being core doctrine, why would the nature of God not be core doctrine. It's what sets religions apart. :shrug: Evidenced by some of the answers, it at least is being taught to LDS members.


2. Were there any other humans on that planet that obeyed their Savior?

John Powell: (former LDS)
Presumably yes,

Mark Schindler (LDS)
No idea. Not even close to core doctrine.


As this relates to the nature and character of God, while not core, it should be important.


3. Were those obedient on that planet exalted as well?

John Powell: (former LDS)
Presumably yes

Mark Schindler (LDS)
3-5. As I can't answer 1 or 2, 3-5 can't be answered either.


Same as above, nature and character of God. Also directly pertinent to the salvation experience.


4. Did those who were exalted gain the power to create worlds?

John Powell: (former LDS)
Presumably yes

Mark Schindler (LDS)
3-5. As I can't answer 1 or 2, 3-5 can't be answered either.


See above, nature, character of God and salvation/exaltation experience.



5. How is Elohim unique if those others were able to do all that He is able to do?

John Powell: (former LDS)
Everyone is unique,

Mark Schindler (LDS)
3-5. As I can't answer 1 or 2, 3-5 can't be answered either.


My point was that if others were around the universe, then Elohim/El'Elyon/God/Heavenly Father is not unique other than His individuality. This is where I see a difference. We Christians of the evangelical/orthodox persuasion see God as imminently unique, none at all like Him (Isa 43:10). If others were from His planet, then there are those who are like Him, either near His power and knowledge or exceeding Him.

Which brings us to the family questions:


1. Did Elohim have any children while a mortal?

John Powell: (former LDS)
Unknown to me.

Mark Schindler (LDS)
No idea.


Ok, this one hasn't been touched. I don't know of any literature on the subject either.


2. Did they get sealed for time and eternity while mortal?

John Powell: (former LDS)
Presumably yes.

Mark Schindler (LDS)
Probably.


Funny, for not knowing, the answers seem to turn to the affirmative. This would make sense as this is a requirement. I spoke with a card carying- garment wearing LDS guy at my office and he said that in order to keep the family together, they would have had to be sealed.


3. Could we assume that at least one of them obeyed their savior and became a god?

John Powell: (former LDS)
Sure, that would be expected

Mark Schindler (LDS)
Probably, but we don't know.



OK, this moves right along with the original premise. Thanks.


4. As sons, do they have to go thru mortality again here? Or are they just “along for the ride”?

John Powell: (former LDS)
Mormons do not believe in reincarnation

Mark Schindler (LDS)
No idea


So if God/Heavenly Father was sealed to His family, does that mean that they are "together" for all time? If that's the case then where are they now? How come God/Heavenly Father does not know of any other gods(Isa 44:8)? Did His exalted sons and daughters lose their place??



Final comments:
John Powell:
These questions that you're asking, Bill, would probaby be considered among those "mysteries not essential to our salvation" by the vast majority of modern Mormons. If you asked early leaders of the Church, however, you might have gotten a different answer from some of them.


Mark Schindler:
These are all interesting questions and it's always the exotica that one is attracted to, but the simple fact of the matter is that while there exists speculation on this, none of it is considered even close to being core doctrine.

Exmo-Robertson:
I know you asked for my input on this thread, but to be honest, John did a great job of responding and gave most of the answers I would have said.

Hemofhisgarment:
I agree with JP's answers, but also with Marc's. These may be interesting to study out, but are really unnecessary to one's basic faith in Christ, i.e. looking beyond the mark.

Xmansmommy:
As far as I was taught, Elohim was a human who became a God. Not sure about whether or not it was on another planet however.



OK, as far as the closing comments, for these to even be taught, which they obviously have been for people to answer, and not be official doctrine is going against the admonition of Peter (see my sig line)


I'd like to thank all those who participated. It is very informative. I have tried to not be accusative or underhanded, just trying to follow a logical thought process.

[John Powell]

POWELL:
What God may have done on other planets is probably no more essential to Mormon doctrine than it is to other Christians. Knowing some of this, however, can be reassuring. Something many people find attractive about Mormonism is the feeling that there are answers to nearly all their religious questions.

Mormons see eternal families similar to their physical families. The children might live in their own homes in different parts of the world from their parents and their siblings, but they still communicate, sometimes get together, and still feel like a united family. Likewise, Elohim's family might be spread throughout the universe, but still communicate, sometimes get together, and still feel like a united family.

When Mark and I answered the follow-up questions about the hypothetical children of Elohim on the planet He was human, it was under the assumption that He did have children. In other words, neither of us knew whether Elohim had physical children there, but if He did then . . . (the answers to the follow-up questions).

John Powell

[Bill the Cat]

POWELL:
What God may have done on other planets is probably no more essential to Mormon doctrine than it is to other Christians. Knowing some of this, however, can be reassuring. Something many people find attractive about Mormonism is the feeling that there are answers to nearly all their religious questions.


Like I said, my feelings, but thanks for the responses.


Mormons see eternal families similar to their physical families. The children might live in their own homes in different parts of the world from their parents and their siblings, but they still communicate, sometimes get together, and still feel like a united family. Likewise, Elohim's family might be spread throughout the universe, but still communicate, sometimes get together, and still feel like a united family.

I understand, but why would god say he didn't know them is my only beef.

When Mark and I answered the follow-up questions about the hypothetical children of Elohim on the planet He was human, it was under the assumption that He did have children. In other words, neither of us knew whether Elohim had physical children there, but if He did then . . . (the answers to the follow-up questions).

And I understand that, like I said, my feelings.

John, I really appreciate your willingness to answer. I'll pm you tomorrow with the next thread.