I love Beer! Should Christians drink alcohol? (legally-21+)

[LutherReloaded]

If you think it is wrong - give a reason. If everyone thinks it is right, I'll just down another cold one :)

[luv1another]

LR,
It's not against God to drink alcohol, however it says in the bible not to get drunk :smile: but it doesn't say not to drink... in fact paul tells timothy to drink some wine for his stomache.
as long as you are not doing anything against the law like drinking and driving or drinking under age

[James Peter]

Drinking is fine, getting drunk isn't. What is 'drunk'? For me if you do something that you wouldn't do if you were entirely sober then you've had too much to drink...

[mossrose]

Drinking alcohol is wrong for me. My brother was an alcoholic, and it resulted in him taking his own life.

I will not drink alcohol because there may be a chance that I also have this addictive personality. I will not risk it.

I was brought up in a home that did not believe in drinking, and so I am not missing anything. I have tried wine, and I don't like the taste of it.

My son does not drink, my daughter did not drink until she was married, and now she and her husband will have a little wine. They don't drink beer or strong spirits.

I have several friends who attend the same church as I do, who I have known for about 26 years........they were drinkers before they became believers, but will not touch anything alcoholic at all now.

Romans 14 is quite clear on how we should behave.......


1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.





5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;

8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.

9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.


It is clear that for one who thinks that drinking is wrong, that is fine. For one who thinks it is alright to drink, that is also fine. (Moderation in ALL things is also very clear throughout Scripture.......)

So, I am not to judge any who choose to drink, who are not convicted of God that they should not do so. And no one can judge me for choosing not to drink, because I believe that it is wrong for me to do so.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.

14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.

16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;

17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

If I was a drinker, I would not invite my friends who refuse to drink because they know that is wrong for them to have a drink at my house. That would be a stumbling block to them. Nor does my daughter offer me a glass of wine at her house.

The key is to allow God to deal with other believers, not judge them for what God allows them to do, or reveals to them what they should not do. The key is to walk in love and live in peace and righteousness.

So, Luther, I can't tell you whether it is alright for you to drink or not. I don't know how you can even get past the smell of beer to actually drink it, but that is not my concern........:eww:

My concern is only that you do what God has revealed to you is allowable in your life in this matter.

:smile:

[NeilUnreal]

I think it's an individual thing, but those who decide to drink need to keep it within the bounds of propriety, good health, and self-control. It can be a real problem for some, especially people with clinical alchoholism and other issues.

Personally, I like beer. Unfortunately, I don't like excercise enough to keep it off my waistline, so I usually abstain. :lol:

-Neil

[FirstSunday33ad]

If you think it is wrong - give a reason. If everyone thinks it is right, I'll just down another cold one :)


ummmm....beeeerrrr...aaggaaa :duh:

There is no sin in alcohol, the sin lies in being a drunkard.

[David O]

I love the Belgians ones best. Especially Maredsous. Drink up, buddy.

[Hitch]

Had God inteneded we all be tea-totallers He would never have allowed the Scots to distill the tears of the guardian angel of Isley

[agnostic]

If God does exist, I really don't think he cares what you eat and drink as long as it isn't harmful to yourself or others, such as canabalism. But even canabalism can have it's place if it were necessary to save the life of a human being that would otherwise perish due to hunger (I personally would have a hard time eating the flesh of another human, even to save my own life, but I don't think people have the right to judge what God would decide based upon the circumstances). People for ages have been putting things into the Bible that fit their personal beliefs, and the beliefs of the time they live in, and 2000 years later millions of people consider these beliefs to be God's Law. In actuality a lot of things you see in the Bible are simply the ideas of a time and a people that made sense to them and their way of life, but as we all know, ways of life change, and so do the views of humans. The Bible was written by Man, not God, so you need to take into account that a lot of things contained in the Bible are biased toward the time the people were living in when these things were added, and some of those things simply do not fit into our way of life, so you need to take the Bible with a grain of salt and recognize the fact that it contains quite a bit of personal beliefs and things that are out-dated views on certain things. Take into consideration that it's against a lot of religious people's beliefs to eat pork, deer, or any other animal that has a "cloven hoof" because these animals were thought to be "of the Devil," and when it's put into perspective, do you really think that certain animals are "of the Devil" just because their feet developed differently than others?
Anyway, back to the subject, I don't think God cares one way or the other whether or not you get drunk, I think he would be concerned with how you act and what you do while drunk that would make him look down upon you for your actions, and to the person that had his brother commit suicide I would like to say one thing: Alcohol didn't cause your brother to commit suicide; there must have been much, much more inside of him to cause him to commit suicide, and blaming it on alcohol rather than accepting or seeing the truth of his situation that caused him to WANT to commit suicide in the first place just isn't right. I don't know his personal situation, but I do know that if he didn't have thoughts of suicide in the first place, then those thoughts would not have arisen on their own just because he was drinking, so pointing the finger at alcohol is a lot like blaming the Gun Company for murders that were carried out with their gun; it's simply ridiculous. Next we'll see Car Manufacturers being blamed for car accidents, or Surgical Companies being blamed for causing drug abuse just because they manufactured the needle. Too many people want to find blame anywhere they can so that they can sleep better at night, but they should be looking at the simple truth: Mankind is not always a pretty thing, and people do stupid things; you can't blame the alcohol, the gun, the needle, the car, or the cigarette industry for the actions of the people that use these items. It's the people that makes good things happen, and it's the people that make bad things happen. I really think God is smart enough to see that alcohol is simply another of man's tools, and wouldn't blame you for getting drunk, unless YOUR actions while drunk caused harm to yourself or others.

[Berean Todd]

It's been several times allready ,but I will say again. The Bible speaks strongly against drunkeness, but never against drinking. Jesus Himself often drank wine, Paul told Timmothy to, it was part of the passover celebration. Nothing wrong with drinking, only drunkeness.

[malcolm]

If you think it is wrong - give a reason. If everyone thinks it is right, I'll just down another cold one :)

There is no blanket Biblical prohibition on Christians drinking alcohol. As is shown in the New Testament, it's a matter for the leading of the Holy Spirit.

In your case, I can tell you categorically that it's wrong. The reason being 1 John 2:15. So down another cold one by all means, but just don't bother calling yourself a Christian if you do.

[GoBahnsen]

A friendly notice to some of you. Christianity 201 is for Christian only participation. A couple of you are new here, so please refer yourself to the rules for posting, found in the sticky thread at the top of the entry page to this forum.

Thank you in advance for cooperating with decorum rules

[Jin-Roh]

My old denom is still very anti-alcohol. I think the the "drinking is wrong" is pretty much an American/Evanglical thing, not a Bible thing.

[themuzicman]

My old denom is still very anti-alcohol. I think the the "drinking is wrong" is pretty much an American/Evanglical thing, not a Bible thing.

American-fundamentalist thing. Let's keep that straight.

Michael

[Jin-Roh]

My apologies!
:bow:

[jpholding]

If you think it is wrong - give a reason. If everyone thinks it is right, I'll just down another cold one :)

It's not wrong, as long as you don't get drunk. But why would you want to drink something that tastes like what the dog did on the rug?

[Jin-Roh]

Oh come on, not all beer is Budweiser.

[agnostic]

I'm not sure if I'm replying to you the right way, I am new to this whole "forum" idea, but I used the "reply" button, so I hope that was the right way to send my response. I'm not sure if the Moderator Notice was intended for me, because I'm one of the "new" ones here, and because I'm sure that NO ONE would dare to judge whether or not I am a Christian without first asking me, but I thought I would reply just in case. For the record, I was baptized and raised Christian, I spent 14 years studying the Bible and numerous other forms of religion and teachings, and I've spent most of my life studying people and their behaviors, as well as their religious beliefs, so given the possibity that I read that "notice" wrong and you DIDN'T actually mean it the way it sounded, I'm sure that I'm quite qualified to participate in this discussion, though being a human being and a member of your website should be all the reason I need to post my response to questions asked by other humans/members. I would think that the Moderator Notice was not worded properly, because I can't imagine that anyone would actually try to dictate who can and cannot participate in a forum that is intended to be for it's viewers/members (all of them), and I can't imagine that anyone would take such a position as to tell someone that they can't hold discussion with someone just because they aren't "Christian." That would be a lot like communism and dictatorship, rather than a healthy discussion about people's feelings and thoughts being given in response to a question posed by a fellow human being. If you did mean for that "Notice" to be directed at me, I would very much like to hear how you meant it to be taken, because as it stands, it seems to be shutting out anyone that doesn't call themselves "Christian," and that simply wouldn't be proper, human, or morally ethical, and it certainly is not a stance that any "religiously inspired" person or company should be taking. Feel free to reply, I'm anxious to know if you simply worded that notice incorrectly, or if I've mis-interpreted it incorrectly, because it certainly is ridiculous for someone to say to someone else "you can't participate in this discussion, because you aren't one of us"......that sounds a little one-sided doesn't it? The guy asked a question, and wanted an answer; based upon my extensive amount of religious learnings, I provided my opinion......How could that possibly be considered wrong? [That was a rhetorical question.] I await your response......and explanation; did I misinterpret your message and unjustly assume that it was intended for me? If so, then I apologize for jumping to conclusions, but in this day and age you never know who will act like rulers rather than human beings, so I hope you understand why I've felt the need to question your "notice".......

[agnostic]

I'm not sure if I'm replying to you the right way, I am new to this whole "forum" idea, but I used the "reply" button, so I hope that was the right way to send my response. I'm not sure if the Moderator Notice was intended for me, because I'm one of the "new" ones here, and because I'm sure that NO ONE would dare to judge whether or not I am a Christian without first asking me, but I thought I would reply just in case. For the record, I was baptized and raised Christian, I spent 14 years studying the Bible and numerous other forms of religion and teachings, and I've spent most of my life studying people and their behaviors, as well as their religious beliefs, so given the possibity that I read that "notice" wrong and you DIDN'T actually mean it the way it sounded, I'm sure that I'm quite qualified to participate in this discussion, though being a human being and a member of your website should be all the reason I need to post my response to questions asked by other humans/members. I would think that the Moderator Notice was not worded properly, because I can't imagine that anyone would actually try to dictate who can and cannot participate in a forum that is intended to be for it's viewers/members (all of them), and I can't imagine that anyone would take such a position as to tell someone that they can't hold discussion with someone just because they aren't "Christian." That would be a lot like communism and dictatorship, rather than a healthy discussion about people's feelings and thoughts being given in response to a question posed by a fellow human being. If you did mean for that "Notice" to be directed at me, I would very much like to hear how you meant it to be taken, because as it stands, it seems to be shutting out anyone that doesn't call themselves "Christian," and that simply wouldn't be proper, human, or morally ethical, and it certainly is not a stance that any "religiously inspired" person or company should be taking. Feel free to reply, I'm anxious to know if you simply worded that notice incorrectly, or if I've mis-interpreted it incorrectly, because it certainly is ridiculous for someone to say to someone else "you can't participate in this discussion, because you aren't one of us"......that sounds a little one-sided doesn't it? The guy asked a question, and wanted an answer; based upon my extensive amount of religious learnings, I provided my opinion......How could that possibly be considered wrong? [That was a rhetorical question.] I await your response......and explanation; did I misinterpret your message and unjustly assume that it was intended for me? If so, then I apologize for jumping to conclusions, but in this day and age you never know who will act like rulers rather than human beings, so I hope you understand why I've felt the need to question your "notice".......
i don't know if I'm doing this right.......sorry if I'm doing something the wrong way....

[Pilgrim]

Yes Agnostic, the moderator notice was intended for you. You have, by your handle, identified yourself as an agnostic, which is by definition, not Christian. Please refer to the rules of campus decorum that you agreed to when you regisered here at TWeb. Thanks in advance.

[docjam]

I think this is one of the absolute best things that's up for debate in the Christian Realm. Here's my viewpoint...it's up to each individual to decide for themselves what's right or what's not right. Not only in drinking but in every aspect of life. As a Christian, we should know what's right or wrong. True, there are a few grey areas such as drinking. I agree in that I think it's more of a church stand-point than a biblical stand-point. For me personally...it's wrong. Do I go out condemning Christians that drink? Absolutely not. It's been said in this thread a few times and I'll go ahead and say it again...the bible doesn't speak against drinking, it speaks against drunkenness. HOWEVER...as Christians, we're called to a higher standard of living. Drinking is such a worldy thing, why would you want to participate in it? I'm not gonna sit here and tell you guys not to drink because it's a worldy thing, I'm just saying it's more about what type of example you're setting, not only for the world but even for your family. Kids that grow up with no alcohol in the home have a very slim chance of becoming an alcoholic at any point in life. Kids that have alcoholic parents obviously are at greater risk for alcoholism (though they can overcome any odds). Then there's kids of peo
ple like most of you reading this thread, who have an occasional beer or glass of wine. I'm not sure if you know or not, but even just having wine in the home for no reason except to cook with it, those kids are even at a much higher risk to become dependant on alcohol during their life. I think it depends on how/when you drink it, but remember, unless you're single and living alone, people always see it. Kids, spouse, friends...whoever...Obviously, it's also way different to have a beer at a bar than to have one sitting at home in the recliner watching a game on TV(or whatever you watch). Like I said, I'm not condeming drinkers at all, just remember that as a Christian, you have a responsibility to make sure that when you do drink, should you so decide, to make sure it's not offensive to the people around you and you can control it.
I want to throw out this challenge to all christians who drink...Think about what it means to live your life with a higher standard, which essentially, is what we as Christians are called to do.

For the record...I don't drink...never have, never will

[Gromit45]

No. Drinking beer is not a sin.
But what's the point? It is just to get a little buzz? That may be sinful. Shouldn't our "buzz" and excitement be in Christ?

Does beer really taste that much better than other forms of liquid refreshment? No.

Beer has a reputation as an acquired taste. Why should anyone bother to acquire it?

Alcohol is a major contributor to all types of accidental deaths. Your non-participation with beer will not effect that but why not do your little part of not contribute to the industry?

Grace,
Loogy

Also:
Why are most of my replies questions? (???)

[docjam]

[QUOTE=loogy]No. Drinking beer is not a sin.
But what's the point? It is just to get a little buzz? That may be sinful. Shouldn't our "buzz" and excitement be in Christ?

Does beer really taste that much better than other forms of liquid refreshment? No.

Alcohol is a major contributor to all types of accidental deaths. Your non-participation with beer will not effect that but why not do your little part of not contribute to the industry?


good post, good interpretation...

let me also ask this question...(which I think may actually weaken my argument against alcohol but I'll do it anyway...) how is drinking beer any different than drinking pop? Coffee? Caffeine is a drug, is it not? It's addicting right? Should we abstain from all pop and coffee? Probably not. Will God condem us eternally? I don't think so...nonetheless, I still don't drink...

Let me re-emphasize loogy's point...shouldn't Christ be our "buzz"

[themuzicman]

Drinking is such a worldy thing, why would you want to participate in it?

Jesus did it.

You see, this is the problem with fundamentalism. Jesus spent time engaging prostitutes and tax collectors and drunkards to the point that people starting calling HIM these things.

Yes, we refrain from sinning ,but we don't withdraw ourselves so far from the unsaved around us that we can't identify with them or they with us.

Being "worldly" has nothing to do with whether we do things that aren't sinful, but would be something that an unsaved person would do. Being "worldly" is actually doing the sin.

So, go out, engage your world, win them for Christ, and don't sin.

Michael

[Pilgrim]

I have to disagree with the poster who asserted that beer doesn't really taste good. IMHO the right kinds of beer are some of the best testing things around! I also love the taste of a fine single male scotch. I don't enjoy it for the buzz, I love the flavor.

A nice finger of single malt over a single small ice cube in the evening breeze along with maybe a few puffs of good cavendish in my pipe is one of the most relaxing, pleasing things I know of and I thank God that he created us in such a way that we can truly enjoy such an experience.

[zweiteskommen]

I would agree with Pilgrim. I have an affinity for authentic Bavarian wheat beers. Nothing else in the world tastes quite like it and it is delicious to me... and there is the kicker. I also love brussel sprouts while my wife hates them. My in-laws love liver and onions... I find it repugnant. Taste is subjective. What may be an acquired taste for one is an instant hit for another.

This debate will go on well past my lifetime. However, for the Christian, it should be argued on objective grounds.

Z

PS - Guess my "slip" is showing to all the post-modernists out there.

[HyperHobbes]

Beer is proof of God's existance, and Intelligent Design. Except for a nice "MLT", (Mutton Lettuce and Tomato Sandwich), where the Mutton is nice and lean and the Tomatoes are ripe....They're so perky, I love that.

HHobbes

[Spinyn00bman]

It's not wrong, as long as you don't get drunk. But why would you want to drink something that tastes like what the dog did on the rug?

You know what the dog did on the rug tastes like???

:vomit:

[Spinyn00bman]

I am a christian.

I like beer.

I like the TASTE of beer, contrary to many who have probably never tasted it.

As long you are in complete control of your actions, tip that cold one.

Drunkenness to the point of loss of control is what you need to avoid.

[semmie]

this is such a fun topic.

drink!

no, don't drink!

well, okay, drink...but don't enjoy it!

well...no...you can enjoy it...

but only if you don't drink!

honestly, guys.

maybe the issue isn't so much whether or not it's personally sinful for me to have a beer.

maybe the issue is really whether or not it is edifying to the body of christ if i have a beer.

or maybe the issue is whether or not i am glorifying god if i have a beer.

or maybe the issue is whether or not i can justifying drinking a beer when there are people in countries where they would give a kidney for a drink of clean water.

or maybe the issue is why we think a contraversial topic (like alchol) is going to give us a reason to point fingers at who is godly and who is not.

or maybe the issue is what drinking a beer says about me to the atheist neighbor who's already heard me cussing my dog because he knocked over the plant in the living room (again).

:shrug:

therefore, let us be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

that is all. :teeth:

[ChrisChillin]

But why would you want to drink something that tastes like what the dog did on the rug?

Gosh, they don't have better options than Natural Light down in Florida?? :smile:

Beer is still a hard thing for me to drink, but I absolutely love wine. I love the ritual involved in opening a bottle, I love the various nuances that one can glean from a single sip, and I love the interplay of taste when wine is matched with an appropriate dish.

To answer a few concerns:

I'm not sure if you know or not, but even just having wine in the home for no reason except to cook with it, those kids are even at a much higher risk to become dependant on alcohol during their life.

Nice, bald assertion, but are there any statistics or surveys to back this up? If just having any alcohol in the home leads to a higher risk of alcoholism, then why is alcoholism more of a problem in the United States, where so many homes are abstentionist, than in Europe, where there have been no prohibition efforts and where you can start drinking at an earlier age? I believe alcoholism is more often based on having a background in which such drinks are seen by children as exotic and illicit (the syndrome of wanting what is forbidden) and in which no external controls are provided to assist young drinkers into developing responsible habits. In other words, it's our fear of the drink that keeps us from protecting experimental adolescents.

None of the people that I know who were raised in a home with alcohol have experienced problems in becoming drinkers. It is those who weren't raised in such homes that have become drunk more often and some of whom have developed alcoholism.

I want to throw out this challenge to all christians who drink...Think about what it means to live your life with a higher standard, which essentially, is what we as Christians are called to do.

Challenge accepted, but I think it has nothing to do with responsible drinking. I've known the "don't get drunk" part since day one.

unless you're single and living alone, people always see it.

I'm sorry, but I have to say - I care because...??

It is just to get a little buzz? That may be sinful.

What's the point of drinking a coke?
What's the point of riding a roller coaster?
What's the point of J.P. using his rhetoric when slamming an atheist with some social-science data concerning the first century?

Good God man, are you a Gnostic??

Alcohol is a major contributor to all types of accidental deaths.

The meatpacking industry enforces poor safety standards and its workers receive minimal pay and health coverage. Are you going to contribute to that, or are you going to stop eating beef?

Fast food restaurants generate addictions and contribute to the obesity epidemic among children. Are you going to contribute to that, or are you going to stop eating at McD's?

Television viewing has contributed to declining standardized test scores among childrens. It promotes inactivity, mental sluggishness, and diminishes time that family members spend interacting with one another. Are you going to stop watching TV?

To borrow an atheist argument: The Bible has been used to justify the Crusades, the Salem witch trials, racism, etc. Are you going to stop reading the Bible??

Jesus did it.

Bingo. The fact that there were drunkards in his day didn't stop him. Oh no, did people see him??

maybe a few puffs of good cavendish in my pipe

Amen!

or maybe the issue is what drinking a beer says about me to the atheist neighbor

In my case, drinking has increased my ability to share and interact with nonbelievers.

or maybe the issue is why we think a contraversial topic (like alchol) is going to give us a reason to point fingers at who is godly and who is not.

I don't know. I quit pointing fingers a long time ago. Life's too short for that.

[semmie]

In my case, drinking has increased my ability to share and interact with nonbelievers.
not me, and i'll explain why.

it's easy for christians who are practicing self-control to speak about alcohol. i'd say, it's even easy for christians who are practicing self-control to drink alcohol in moderation without feeling any guilt or conviction on the matter.

but i don't think there are many non-believers today who drink with self-control. and i don't think there are any non-believers who drink to the glory of god.

they can't relate to you, chris. they drink because they are bored, or want to be drunk, or like the social aspect of it, or because they're lonely, or because they want to escape some reality, or whatever. they do not (they cannot) drink with self-control to the glory of god.

while it's comforting (foolishly, might i add) to me to know that my friends aren't saying "man, that sarah--what a religious nut, she won't even have a beer with us," it does not comfort me to know that when i drink a beer with my unsaved friends, we are enjoying a life that will be to their eternal destruction.

if we consume alcohol to the glory of god, then let us not label it a social activity that opens doors to unbelievers.

yeah...i'm not nearly as far off the path as you will probably think i am on this matter; but i don't want to further discuss my views of alcohol. i just think it's a silly discussion.

[Pilgrim]

There is so much assertion and assumption in that last post that I don't know where to begin.

[semmie]

There is so much assertion and assumption in that last post that I don't know where to begin.
in mine?

have at it.

[Pilgrim]

Well the idea that non believers, for the most part, can't engage in self control in regards to drinking is patently absurd and unprovable. It's just your opinion really and has no basis in fact. Unless of course you can provide us with hard numbers and research that is.

[semmie]

okay.

first of all, i thought it was obvious i was sharing my opinion and experience with believers and nonbelievers having a beer together. i apologize for not making that clear.

second of all, i didn't say that nonbelievers can't engage in alcohol with self-control. i said that i don't think there many who do. of course there are some who do. my opinion, and my perception, is that there aren't many who do. i apologize for not being clear on this, also.

third of all, why do nonbelievers consume alcohol, do you suppose? i don't think it's typically an exercise of freedom and self-control for the non-believer. i don't think everyone drinks for the same reason. but i certainly don't think that the practice of self-control and the glorification of god typically make the top ten list of reasons why nonbelievers drink. and i apologize if my opinion on this isn't agreeable to you.

:shrug:

i don't think my post was unfair, though; perhaps needing more clarity.

but i do apologize if you think i was unfair or assumptuous. i certianly know a handful of nonbelievers who drink socially and are not in an addictive relationship with their alcohol. that doesn't mean that they're reason for drinking is the same as mine, though. and that was my contention.

[Krusader]

If you think it is wrong - give a reason. If everyone thinks it is right, I'll just down another cold one :)

In America, not drinking alcohol has been one of the hallmarks of fundamentalist morality. However, if you were in India, drinking coffee would be sinful for a Christian. In parts of Europe it perfectly fine for Christians to smoke. The whole thing boils down to "geographical" holiness.

I'm waiting for the time when eating too much at covered dish gatherings is recognized for the sin it is!!!!!!!!

[Cynic Sage]

But why would you want to drink something that tastes like what the dog did on the rug?

Because Moutain Dew isn't that expensive, and the high-caffiene content keeps you up for when you gotta cram for an exam.


:hehe:

[Berean Todd]

Semmie, I would really like for you to tell me though why you think we should abstain from something that Jesus did not. Did He not live a holy enough life? Do we need to be MORE holy than He? Was He in error/sin when He drank, or when He gave wine to others, often in mass quantities (see the wedding at Canna for example)?

[Cynic Sage]

Semmie, I would really like for you to tell me though why you think we should abstain from something that Jesus did not. Did He not live a holy enough life? Do we need to be MORE holy than He? Was He in error/sin when He drank, or when He gave wine to others, often in mass quantities (see the wedding at Canna for example)?

Still, we should take into account the needs of others, such as a brother who is an alcoholic or at risk of becoming one.

[Jin-Roh]

Well, Crusader is right about not drinking being "one of the hallmarks of fundamentalist morality." Of course, I don't see why I need to follow it as a blanket rule.

[Berean Todd]

Still, we should take into account the needs of others, such as a brother who is an alcoholic or at risk of becoming one.

Did Jesus fail to take those into account? Was He wrong in doing so? Perhaps at that wedding party was one who was succeptable to being drunk you know ... did He sin in His actions?

[Pilgrim]

The reality, however, is that the vast majority of people drink and are not drunkards.

[semmie]

Semmie, I would really like for you to tell me though why you think we should abstain from something that Jesus did not. Did He not live a holy enough life? Do we need to be MORE holy than He? Was He in error/sin when He drank, or when He gave wine to others, often in mass quantities (see the wedding at Canna for example)?
hey there BT :smile:

actually, i don't think i said that we need to abstain from alcohol.

anything else i can clear up for you?

~sarah

[semmie]

The reality, however, is that the vast majority of people drink and are not drunkards.
personally, i don't think it's just a matter of being a drunkard.

but what do i know. :shrug:

[Berean Todd]

hey there BT :smile:

actually, i don't think i said that we need to abstain from alcohol.

anything else i can clear up for you?

~sarah

Well, if I misread I appologize, but your post #30 sure sounded like you were saying we should not drink.

[semmie]

aaaah, okay. i'm sorry post 30 was so ambiguous. that wasn't my intent. nor was my intent to give the impression that i think christians should not drink.

my intent was to offer some questions that might stir discussion other than the believers' freedom and whether or not drinking alcohol is sinful. a lot of times christians talk about alcohol (that is, about whether or not they should drink it) solely in terms of our freedom in christ. personally, i think a christian has the responsibility to consider many other factors, not just whether or not it is sinful for him to drink a beer. that's all i was trying to communicate.

again, i apologize if this was misleading.

[db8man]

Here's one from left field for you guys. i have been involved in a heap of youth work, and one thing i always suggest to Christian teens in relation to alcohol is that they make a pledge to themselves that they will not touch it until a certain age (i usually suggest 20 or 21). this way they accomplist a number of things. first, they keep a whole heap of peer pressure out of the equation. second, they show to themselves that they are able to decide for themselves when they begin drinking. third, it gives them a specific time to aim for. yeah, i know it sounds airy fairy and just plain impractical, but i have any number of firsthand testimonies that say that it can work. dunno exactly what this adds to the discussion, but, oh well... :eek:

[Pilgrim]

But, they're already shooting for that specific age because 21 is the legal age for consuming beer etc. Secondly, how does that remove peer preassure from the equation? Realistically, it only ADDS the pledge to the equation. Which I guess is a good thing because anything you can do to tip the scales the right way is good.

[mossrose]

Semmie, I would really like for you to tell me though why you think we should abstain from something that Jesus did not. Did He not live a holy enough life? Do we need to be MORE holy than He? Was He in error/sin when He drank, or when He gave wine to others, often in mass quantities (see the wedding at Canna for example)?
You have to remember that the wine that was in common usage in Jesus' time was not like the wine we have today. Yes, there were those wines that were made purposely. That is what would have been used at the Cana wedding.

But, there was no refrigeration available, and so grape juice, and any fruit, for that matter, would have fermented quickly. "Old wine", or "red wine" was equivelant to "strong drink", and would have been fermented longer, whereas "new wine" was fresh and unfermented or less fermented. Old wine was usually not spiced, which increased it's strength, but new wine was often spiced.

Wine was often mixed with water to purify the water. If you didn't think the water was safe to drink, you were happy to have the wine.

It was also mixed with water when wine was in short supply, and sometimes it was mixed with milk to be used as a beverage.

The idea of drunkeness was frowned upon even in the OT because drunkeness was associated with the pagan ceremonies that were sometimes little more than orgies.

So, we really can't compare the wine used in NT times, by Jesus and others to what we have today.

We CHOOSE to drink wine or any other alcoholic beverage. We have refrigeration. We have pure water. We don't have to drink wine.

[Spinyn00bman]

You have to remember that the wine that was in common usage in Jesus' time was not like the wine we have today. Yes, there were those wines that were made purposely. That is what would have been used at the Cana wedding.

But, there was no refrigeration available, and so grape juice, and any fruit, for that matter, would have fermented quickly. "Old wine", or "red wine" was equivelant to "strong drink", and would have been fermented longer, whereas "new wine" was fresh and unfermented or less fermented. Old wine was usually not spiced, which increased it's strength, but new wine was often spiced.

Wine was often mixed with water to purify the water. If you didn't think the water was safe to drink, you were happy to have the wine.

It was also mixed with water when wine was in short supply, and sometimes it was mixed with milk to be used as a beverage.

The idea of drunkeness was frowned upon even in the OT because drunkeness was associated with the pagan ceremonies that were sometimes little more than orgies.

So, we really can't compare the wine used in NT times, by Jesus and others to what we have today.

We CHOOSE to drink wine or any other alcoholic beverage. We have refrigeration. We have pure water. We don't have to drink wine.

I am sorry but this argument has ALWAYS amused me.

There is NO WAY TO KNOW what the wine was like in Jesus day unless you find the keys to a very OLD wine cellar.

If you don't want to drink, then by all means don't. But dancing around to make some logical connection to wine of today and wine of Jesus day stretches credibility a bit, in my humble opinion.

[Pilgrim]

Well, it's your opinion I guess, but there are many things about ancient cultures we can glean through reason and research. The wine making process is one of them. It's not like there are not written records of such things afterall.

[Spinyn00bman]

Well, it's your opinion I guess, but there are many things about ancient cultures we can glean through reason and research. The wine making process is one of them. It's not like there are not written records of such things afterall.

So somone has found the ancient wine recipe, recreated those conditions exactly as they were in Jesus day, then sat down and compared the two side by side?

[Pilgrim]

So somone has found the ancient wine recipe, recreated those conditions exactly as they were in Jesus day, then sat down and compared the two side by side?
Good question. I'm not sure of the exact recipe of the wine Jesus drank, but I do know that many recipes for fermentation have been found and used. For instance, the Henrey Ford Museum in Michigan makes historic ales using the same process used by brew miesters from hundreds of years ago.

Rally though, your requirment is illogical and unreasonable. Of course no one can create and exact batch replica of anything. Even coke bottled last year will have subtle differences. The point is that it is not unreasonable to trust science and history when experts in their respective fields say, "This is pretty much the way it was."

And the way it was in this case is that the wine that Jesus would have had with his supper was most likely high in alchohol content.

[Berean Todd]

The idea of drunkeness was frowned upon even in the OT because drunkeness was associated with the pagan ceremonies that were sometimes little more than orgies.

Where has anyone in this thread said that it was ok to be drunk? And where has the Bible ever said it was wrong to drink? Of coruse drunkeness was and IS frowned on, sinful - what does that have to do with drinking in moderation though?

We CHOOSE to drink wine or any other alcoholic beverage. We have refrigeration. We have pure water. We don't have to drink wine.

So, Jesus could create this wine, but he couldn't have given them pure water instead, if drinking is so bad? Too bad, I mean all that power, and he couldn't even zap up some pure water ...

Again, give me any Biblical reason why something Jesus did is wrong for us. Are we supposed to live more holy than He? Did He sin when He drank? If not, why is it wrong for us? If so, then how could He atone for us?

[!Fluffy!]

Where has anyone in this thread said that it was ok to be drunk? And where has the Bible ever said it was wrong to drink? Of coruse drunkeness was and IS frowned on, sinful - what does that have to do with drinking in moderation though?



So, Jesus could create this wine, but he couldn't have given them pure water instead, if drinking is so bad? Too bad, I mean all that power, and he couldn't even zap up some pure water ...

Again, give me any Biblical reason why something Jesus did is wrong for us. Are we supposed to live more holy than He? Did He sin when He drank? If not, why is it wrong for us? If so, then how could He atone for us?

Some Christians aren't happy unless everyone around them is miserable, feeling guilty, questioning their own motives, checking their Saved Meter, etc. I think back in Jesus' day they would have been Scribes and Pharisees.

Jesus went out of His way to attend gatherings (parties) and to make sure this was recorded for our edification - it seems someone was always standing around frowning in disapproval, and later rebuked. It was at one of these gatherings he shared the story of the prodigal son. Do you remember how that parable ended? They threw a party! And the other son resented it!

Celebrating the life we have been given is a wonderful way to glorify God. Getting drunk is just stupid, and has nothing to do with the op's question.

Luther loved beer and he was okay in my book. :cheers:

[Pilgrim]

Where has anyone in this thread said that it was ok to be drunk? And where has the Bible ever said it was wrong to drink? Of coruse drunkeness was and IS frowned on, sinful - what does that have to do with drinking in moderation though?



So, Jesus could create this wine, but he couldn't have given them pure water instead, if drinking is so bad? Too bad, I mean all that power, and he couldn't even zap up some pure water ...

Again, give me any Biblical reason why something Jesus did is wrong for us. Are we supposed to live more holy than He? Did He sin when He drank? If not, why is it wrong for us? If so, then how could He atone for us?
Don't you know, BT, that it wasn't actually wine? It was just really grape juice. We just have either translated it wrong or the wine back then wasn't really wine.

Funny though, how that particular interpretation didn't really come abot until prohibition. How about an eisogesis chaser to go along with your non-alcholoic beer?

[Spinyn00bman]

This thread reminds me.....my fridge is empty.

Time to run to the store to remidy that frosty beverage deficiancy.

[TuckEverlasting]

This thread reminds me.....my fridge is empty.

And that reminds me... I drank the only one that was in the fridge last night, and I need to put more in. :ale:

[Pilgrim]

When you guys are all stocked up, invite us over! I'll bring Scotch.

[James Peter]

Just quickly to deal with the 'it wasn't really alcohol that they drank' argument...

The wine was enough to get them drunk, or such is certainly the implication of Jn 2:10. Maybe it was relatively weak wine but does it make any difference if I drink 3 shots of vodka or 3 bottles of a beer? Surely what matters isn't the concentration of what I'm drinking but the effect of what I've drunk?

[Berean Todd]

Just quickly to deal with the 'it wasn't really alcohol that they drank' argument...

The wine was enough to get them drunk, or such is certainly the implication of Jn 2:10. Maybe it was relatively weak wine but does it make any difference if I drink 3 shots of vodka or 3 bottles of a beer? Surely what matters isn't the concentration of what I'm drinking but the effect of what I've drunk?

Yes, and also for those who try to claim that it wasn't really wine, they have the problem that the Pharisees in at least one time, acused him of being a drunkard!

[Pilgrim]

not to mention the fact that at pentecost they thought all the disciples were drunk. That means the spirits of the time were indeed alcoholic.

[Yamyam]

I think it isn't wrong as long as you stay very careful with it and don't intoxicate yourself with it or get drunk. I think everyone should care about their own body and respect their body and to me (and I think also, to our Creator->He didn't create you to destroy yourself) it is a sign of disrespect to yourself if you don't drink with consciousness and care.
Smoking for instance I call totally wrong, because even if you smoke a little bit it's toxic for your body. I don't think God meant people to destroy their body's whenever they like to.
So when it's becoming bad for your body (drinking), or you take it just for the feeling and get addicted, than you should quit immediately.
I personally don't drink alcohol at all, because I don't even want to take the risk on addiction, + I just don't like the taste :blush: but I don't exspect everyone to act like me.

[OfficialPro]

keep the alcohol flowing. Drunkeness is condemned, not the imbibing of the alcohol. It is possible to keep it under the baseline (drink, yet not get drunk).

Prolly because people can do some pretty dumb things while under the influence. But as long as you're not an alcoholic, s'not a big deal.

[HasteTheDay]

For an adequate representation of a total abstinence argument, I strongly suggest Johnny Hunt's most requested sermon, "Should Christians Drink: A Committment to Total Abstinence."

http://www.itsanewdayonline.com/prod/index.cfm?Fuseaction=CatList&catid=2

[Cynic Sage]

Is there a written transcript we could read, some of us don't want to pay $6 for tapes.

[dizzle]

I have no issue with Christians having a few drinks. I used to, but I was cured of that sort of legalism. I haven't had a drink in at least six months, but I never was much of a drinker to begin with ever, but I enjoy some wine coolers or a margarita now and then.

[Amazing Rando]

I personally choose not to drink at all (partially because I'm afraid of what would happen to me if I began), but if you want to drink in moderation, that's certainly cool.

[Cynic Sage]

I myself am a tee-totaler, I just don't like the taste of alcoholic beverages.

[Amazing Rando]

I myself am a tee-totaler, I just don't like the taste of alcoholic beverages.

I've always wondered where that word came from. :shrug:

[Furor]

Rando: Wiki suggests two theories. The first is that it's an homage to a stuttering forefather of the group ("t-t-total"), while the second (and more reasonable, I daresay) is as follows:

A more likely explanation is that teetotal is simply a reduplication of total. In England in the 1830s, when the word first appeared, it was also used in other contexts as an emphasised form of total. The word could also be a fusion of the words tea, a common non-alcoholic beverage, and total, albeit with the spelling changed slightly.

As to the topic at hand, I must throw in my lot with the "drink but not drunk" school of thought. I myself am quite partial to the cool Gin and Tonic at the close of day.

[Keepupthefire]

Yes, and also for those who try to claim that it wasn't really wine, they have the problem that the Pharisees in at least one time, acused him of being a drunkard!

I'm in agreement with Todd here, but my rant isn't directed towards him.

Who was invited? Jesus an his disciples. Now because they where invited they where accounted for. If they wheren't invited I could understand the shortage of wine. I'm just speculating here of course if people really didn't get drunk, but we know thats not the case. It's the only other alternative to the shortage of wine.
I also noticed that Mary told the servants to do what Jesus said. To me that showed faith. Perhaps this is the reason Jesus accomodated the turning water to wine. You see later that by this he won the faith of his disciples.

Also notice this too, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink(there drunk by now);but you have saved the best till now."

Now it's possible that they are drunkards, he gave them more wine. The moral I'm trying to get across is that Jesus didn't make anyone choose to drink too much, thats up to each person to count the cost. He is not guilty by association.

If I want to invite someone over for a drink an he can control himself there's nothing wrong in it. Now if I know it is a stumbling block to him it is sin if I offer it to him. If by chance I meet an atheist an he wants me to come over for a beer, I'll do that. I'll offer him to come over for a beer. It's pure friendship. If God should move him to start asking about Jesus an what I believe I'll tell him. If the issue is about my witness being bad then I've got news for you Jesus didn't do any better.

I see this even in my church. My senior Pastor doesn't believe it's a good witness. I have the right to disagree, an my conscious is sound. Some people would consider it rude if they offered a beer as an initiation to conversation and friendship.

Some say that it is worldly, based on what scripture? I could site Jesus was worldly if thats the case.

Here is why I believe that some people don't understand why drinking beer around un-believers isn't a bad thing.

1.They either have never drank before.

2.Have had bad experiences with alcohol.

3.Don't like the taste of alcohol.

4.They think there are better drinks, that aren't potential for problems

Don't think this is directed towards anyone in particular. No one on this forum do I object to. This is entirely my opinion.

Consider this, why do people insist that drinking is wrong or at the very least allude to it being wrong? Even though they state sure getting drunk is wrong, but not drinking. Then why all the reasons like:

1.You could drink something thats better than alcohol. 2.Your witness is ruined because of it. 3.What message are you sending to an un-believer(I would lump this in with the bad witness one). 4.It's poisoning your body. 5.It cost money you could have spent it elsewhere thats better.

My answer to each is:

1. The same could be said about pop, but I don't hear them complaining about that one( this says they are only projecting there convictions forcibly upon others); also, Beer that has been pasturized has no value left in it thats why I drink German beer that is un-pasturized. No empty calories here. I think Samuel Adams is unpasturized as well but correct if I'm wrong.

2. And so is Jesus' witness as well as his disciples who took part if thats true. People can't understand how I've met so many homosexuals, tranvestites, bisexuals, so, I explain thats because of my past before I was a Christian I was rolling with the pigs. Some despise me, not because my beliefs, others are friends, another I lived with fell in-love with me. I like Jesus still will spend time with these people no matter how it looks to the Pharisees an Scribs of our days.

3. That I think you are ok an I'm not holier than thou, even though I don't approve of your getting drunk. I've an Uncle is astonished that I can drink around him an quit when I want to(he can't). This shows self-control(restraint, an it send a message) to un-believers which is a good quality(if you can control it). People who have never tried it will not understand it. I have a co-worker who has asked me to join him downtown at a bar, I told him no because the smoke hurts my eyes an I don't like the atmosphere, but I'll drink at home. This also send the message that I am a willing to drink on conditions an leave the option open for my friend to join me for a brew an some conversation.

4. Yeah if you get drunk. Same answer as 1. And the bible say to do things in moderation. Too much an your a glutton, an even science has shown that too much can be bad of many things.

5. Same as 1. What this is really about is they still insist you don't drink even if it's about not getting drunk. Projecting their convictions again upon you.

Hopefully this was insightful. And taken well.

[Pilgrim]

That's not the onloy other option. The other option is that they just planned poorly. Tell me you've never been to a party where the hosts just plain didn't prepare enough.

[James Peter]

That's not the onloy other option. The other option is that they just planned poorly. Tell me you've never been to a party where the hosts just plain didn't prepare enough.

You're meant to prepare for a party? I thought you just hid the stuff you didn't want to get broken and then tell people to turn up at 8pm (or whenever) and to bring whatever they want to drink with them because you're not subsidising them. :wink:

[Red Mark]

1. Drinking is morally permissible. Jesus drank. He's God. He turned water into wine for public use. Wasn't there some OT direction given to people about buying some of the strong stuff for celebrating? (From the I-Know-I've-Seen-It-Somewhere Translation; IKISIS)

2. Drinking is a matter of public conscience. Morals are often culturally based. Consider rules about hair. Our culture, on the whole, does place alcohol within the realm of "unclean" acts. However, this is not new as a concept. People often devoted themselves to God through abstention from alcohol. Wasn't this part of being part of the Nazarites? (See Samson)

3. Do not drink if it causes others to stumble. Our culture believes in alcoholism. People believe that alcohol problems go beyond mere self-control and into disease status. Encouraging people to drink for the first time is in conflict if alcoholism is true. One places others at risk.

4. If I have to stop doing everything that might cause someone else in the world to stumble according to conscience, then I need to stop living. Therefore, not drinking is localized to those individuals present who have issues of conscience or self-control with regard to drinking.

5.1. With regard to personal use, it is not altogether clear what drunkeness is. Is drunkeness a quantity or a quality? Many people can tolerate a great deal of alcohol without serious effect. Other people cannot.

5.2 Drunkeness is qualitative. But then is it qualitative in the substance itself? Some will accept wine, while rejecting liquor, for reasons other than personal taste. For example, when the popularity of absinthe was cutting into wine profit, wine-makers set out to say the alcohol of absinthe was evil and unhealthy while wine was healthy, holy, and even recommended to help people get over alcoholism. Absinthe remains illegal in many countries to this day because of wine-makers negative marketing. Champagne has a better history than Bartles&James, Natural Ice, Popov, Mad Dog 2020, and 5-o'clock. Do we want to only support substances that have had better marketing campaigns?

5.3 The relevant quality is not in the bottle, but in the person and the social company. The specific quality within the individual seems to be an issue. Our culture, rightly, places a low level of alcohol for the legal permissibility of driving a car. Sitting by the pool is a bit higher. Granted, no one is to take part in another religion's rituals whether that includes drunkeness or not. If witchcraft were the popular conception of drinking, then we would have a strong reason for discouraging public consumption.

5.3.1 If self-control or alcoholism is a problem, then drinking is morally impermissible. Abstention is part of taking responsibility for one's life. Substance abuse is a real problem for many.

5.3.2 If there is no personal problem, then it remains unclear at what point drunkeness occurs. This is a matter of conscience as well. I think the line exists somewhere between not showing up on a breathalizer and not showing up for work. I'm quite sure the line is crossed when you can't find your keys because you don't even know what you'd want keys for or maybe what keys are. But there is a gray area.

6. People often do not know what different alcohols will do to their health. Dark beer and red wine, for example, create certain health risks/advantages. Good for the heart, bad for allergies and intolerances; e.g. many beers are horrible on the lactose intolerant. The higher level of histamine could also create a problem for those who have trouble with sexual purity, but this could be a benefit for those with a rather cold spouse. Impurities in some forms of liquor are far more likely to cause headaches or encourage angry emotions. And let's not even talk about weight gain from the sugar. Also, those struggling with anxiety or depression will find their struggle made worse because alcohol strips them of many nutrients, like B-vitamins, esp. B-1.

7. Special hint to those new to the church experience: I recently learned that taking a beer into church was not entirely kosher. Man was I wrong when I figured bringing a personal 12-pack would have better numerical associations than bringing 6-er. I'm not so sure my comments encouraged our pastor, but I really do think I enjoy his sermons more. Sang my heart out that morning, I did. I tried to keep with the words on the screen, but I had a hard time seeing them. NEXT WEEK: I try my Bible-shaped flask. I think that might fit in better at Sunday school.

Perhaps we can discuss the morality of being a meatatarian while we're at it.

Red Lager, err Meat, err, Mark

[NeilUnreal]

The problem is not my liking beer; the problem is beer liking me. Beer loves me; it goes straight to my waistline and parks itself there contented as can be, willing to stay forever. It has to be forced to move on, usually by subjecting it to exercise.

-Neil

[elysian]

As mossrose said in an earlier thread, drinking or not drinking is a Romans 14 issue. If it becomes a bondage for you then it is a problem (if you are prone to drunkenness or just can't live without the brewskis) but as long as it is a pleasure enjoyed in moderation- to the glory of God- then hey, why not? A former Pastor at my church had a carefully cultivated wine cellar. His enjoyment of wine was in thanksgiving for God's good gifts, but it wasn't based on a striving to get wasted every night and blot out things. There is something to be said for the pleasure of having dinner and a glass of wine and conversation with friends.

Personally I almost always choose not to drink- in the past I was very prone to binge drinking which is a pattern I do not wish to repeat. On very rare occasions (once a year or even less often) I may choose to have a small glass of wine with dinner- not to get drunk but to appreciate the flavor of the wine and to enjoy the company I am with.

The question that Christians are compelled to ask is, "Are my actions glorifying God?" Yes God wants us to enjoy food and drink but not to take it out of context or take eating and drinking to excess. I believe we do glorify God when we eat and drink in moderation for both our health and for aesthetics' sake. It is possible to eat and drink in ways that are healthy and pleasing to the body, mind and spirit. It is OK to have an occasional piece of candy or sweet dessert to please the palate as long as this is balanced with the body's need for nutritious food. Moderation and restraint are the keys.

So if your enjoyment of an occasional beer (not to be confused with downing a case of Natty Lite as fast as possible to get a buzz on) does not hinder you and if it brings glory to God then go for it. It is between you and God and no one else.

[Red Mark]

5.3.1 If self-control or alcoholism is a personal problem, then drinking is not morally permissible. Abstention is part of taking responsibility for one's life. Substance abuse is a real problem for many.

And, those who do what is right in the face of temptation are noble and should be applauded.

Red