Does God do evil?

[Geek Eclectic]

Does God do evil? This was a question posed to me in a debate, with the following verses to back it up. I'm sure if I knew Hebrew I could answer why the words were translated the way they are, but...I don't. Here are the verses:

Exodus 32:14 is first -- And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

With the above verse, and the conversation that takes place in the preceding verse, someone's been telling me that this means that God makes mistakes. And furthermore, that Moses "put the smack down" on God. I'm having trouble debating this point. Someone please help.

I Chronicles 21:15 -- And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

The above verse is being used to state that God again makes mistakes, and that He changes His mind. I've read the surrounding verses, and there doesn't seem to be any particular event that would cause God to say "Destroy it...okay, now don't destroy it." Again, please help.

I really shouldn't get myself in these debates in the first place, but since I did and got stuck, hopefully someone here knows some stuff that I'm missing that will defend the Christian view of God.

[Mr. Tinkles]

Does God do evil? This was a question posed to me in a debate, with the following verses to back it up. I'm sure if I knew Hebrew I could answer why the words were translated the way they are, but...I don't. Here are the verses:

Exodus 32:14 is first -- And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

With the above verse, and the conversation that takes place in the preceding verse, someone's been telling me that this means that God makes mistakes. And furthermore, that Moses "put the smack down" on God. I'm having trouble debating this point. Someone please help.

I Chronicles 21:15 -- And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

The above verse is being used to state that God again makes mistakes, and that He changes His mind. I've read the surrounding verses, and there doesn't seem to be any particular event that would cause God to say "Destroy it...okay, now don't destroy it." Again, please help.

I really shouldn't get myself in these debates in the first place, but since I did and got stuck, hopefully someone here knows some stuff that I'm missing that will defend the Christian view of God.

OK. First, you've been a bit misled by a very emotive word whose meaning has changed over time - evil. Evil is a Saxon word (yfel, in case you care) that originally meant bad or badness, but not ina moral sense. So Tyndale uses evil in your Exodus passage "And the Lorde refrayned him selfe from that euell, which he sayde he wolde do vnto his people". The KJVs also keep evil, which is the qutations you have. But around the 18th Century, evil took on a more defined meaning of 'extreme moral wickedness' which is the common modern reading. If you look at the more recent translations, they don't use the word evil and replace it with 'disaster' eg "And the LORD relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people" (ESV)

So to paraphrase your example passages, God relents from carrying out a 'disaster' for various reasons. This is the question you should be answering - why does God plan to do something, and then 'change' his mind. Nothing to do with moral character.

[Geek Eclectic]

Oh, wow. Thank you so much. That helps immensely. :yipee:

[Jillyn'Toast]

I agree with Mr. Tinkles, God is capable of bad in the disaster sense of the word, not the evil/wrong-doing sense of the word. Isaiah 45:7 says,
"I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things."
But we know that in 1 Timothy 4:4 it also says,
"For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving"
So that while God has created things that are disaster, it has some reason for good, which is supported by Romans 8:28 ("And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."). Or in James 1, it says that trials (which are generally disasters and not so nice things) come from God but are used to build endurance in your faith and give you knowledge and understanding you wouldnt otherwise have had.

[infide]

So to paraphrase your example passages, God relents from carrying out a 'disaster' for various reasons. This is the question you should be answering - why does God plan to do something, and then 'change' his mind. Nothing to do with moral character.

I completely agree with your take on the equivocation issue regarding "evil".

I just wanted to comment here. It is not as if God planned one thing and then did another. This would downright deny that God is Omniscient, since it is not even about foreknowledge (which is where the contentions often come in) but it has to do with God knowing what He Himself is going to do.

This passage must then be understood to be teaching something else. It is taking a particularly anthropomorphic look at God's action because, we are supposed to understand that God takes human prayers and free acts in account. take a look at what happenned just before that:

"David said to Gad, "I am in great distress; please let me fall into the hand of the LORD, for His mercies are very great." (1 Chron. 21:13, NAS)

So it is clear that God's "repentance" demonstrates David's faithful view that God is merciful! God knew that He would relent His punishment all along.

peace.

[TrinityKicker]

It would be pearls to Mr. Tinkles if I knew how to do it, but I don't.

Hear! Hear!

[Geek Eclectic]

It would be pearls to Mr. Tinkles if I knew how to do it, but I don't.

Hear! Hear!
Just scroll up to his post, and look directly under at the various buttons -- one will say "Pearls." Click on it, and it'll take you to another screen where you can choose how many to send and can even write him a little message.

But yes, pearls for Mr. Tinkles. I concur.

[themuzicman]

Does God do evil? This was a question posed to me in a debate, with the following verses to back it up. I'm sure if I knew Hebrew I could answer why the words were translated the way they are, but...I don't. Here are the verses:

Exodus 32:14 is first -- And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

With the above verse, and the conversation that takes place in the preceding verse, someone's been telling me that this means that God makes mistakes. And furthermore, that Moses "put the smack down" on God. I'm having trouble debating this point. Someone please help.

That's incorrect. God would have been perfectly justified in destroying Israel, judging them for their stiffnecked rebellion. Moses simply convinces God to extend His patience with His people for a while.

Neither option, destroying them or not destorying them, would have been evil.

I Chronicles 21:15 -- And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

The above verse is being used to state that God again makes mistakes, and that He changes His mind. I've read the surrounding verses, and there doesn't seem to be any particular event that would cause God to say "Destroy it...okay, now don't destroy it." Again, please help.

Again, neither decision is a mistake. God is justified in judging or showing mercy in whatever proportions to Israel, especially in light of their repeated violation of the covenant.

I really shouldn't get myself in these debates in the first place, but since I did and got stuck, hopefully someone here knows some stuff that I'm missing that will defend the Christian view of God.

Welcome to theology....

Michael

[Saintopher]

OK. First, you've been a bit misled by a very emotive word whose meaning has changed over time - evil. Evil is a Saxon word (yfel, in case you care) that originally meant bad or badness, but not ina moral sense. So Tyndale uses evil in your Exodus passage "And the Lorde refrayned him selfe from that euell, which he sayde he wolde do vnto his people". The KJVs also keep evil, which is the qutations you have. But around the 18th Century, evil took on a more defined meaning of 'extreme moral wickedness' which is the common modern reading. If you look at the more recent translations, they don't use the word evil and replace it with 'disaster' eg "And the LORD relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people" (ESV)

So to paraphrase your example passages, God relents from carrying out a 'disaster' for various reasons. This is the question you should be answering - why does God plan to do something, and then 'change' his mind. Nothing to do with moral character.

The Hebrew word for "evil" mentioned here is 'ra.

The definition that you supplied is correct. However, the same word with the same definition is used in Genesis 3:22. The Genesis passage explains why man was to be expelled from the Garden- "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

The original sin in picture is eating from the forbidden tree. The original sin in spirit is becoming as God in the judgment of good and evil. He did not want Adam and Eve to remain forever in that state which he never desired for them. The judgment was for God and God alone.

The event is only a type and shadow of what happens within all men. We are born then with the natual bend to reach the "age of discernment" in which we begin to judge for ourselves good against evil, which is eating from the tree all over again. God doesn't want that, yet that is how we spend most of our lives. That was the importance of Christ's words that "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, "If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." [Matt. 16:24]

It is only in the denial of self [or abandonment] that we can leave our judgments of good and evil behind and see the justice of the Lord.

Mark 10:15 is also another place where Christ stresses the importance of a childlike faith in the Father, rather than his own judgments. "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."

The bottom line is that every time we render judgments of "good" or "evil" about any kind of circumstances in our lives or in the world around us, we have returned to the garden to eat of the forbidden tree. We must then repent and see that as Isaiah 45:7 says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]"

That is why Paul said that he could be content in any situation. He knew that everything in his life was from the hand of God and he then left no judgment of what they were to himself. Rather, he just simply gave thanks.

[super-mikey]

I'd say he is evil....at least according to the standards of which we judge (and we do judge God) i will extract various arguments from other Athiests:


Christian Claims

God is...

All-Good
All-Powerful
All-knowing
Eternal
Effective
Personal

The Evil Argument

(P) There is plenty of evil/suffering in the world in the past/contemporary times.

(P) No all good, all-knowing and all-powerful God would permit such evil that is not logically necessary

(C) therefore no all good, all knowing, all powerful God exists.


Evil Definition

Intense pain, suffering, murder,death, serious disability (mental/physical)

Admittedly, there are other definitions of evil but this is one i shall i utilize.


Child in Need of Protection: CFSA S.72(1)

- Physical harm or risk
-Neglect
- Sexually molested, exploited or at risk of
- Medical treatment not provided; physical or mental
- Emotion harm or risk of
- Anxiety, depression, withdrawal, aggression, self-destructive

(keep this in mind)


Recycling Arguments from other Atheists:

Quite a few babies are born with down Syndrome, some of which are born with intestinal obstructions that will kill them without surgery via dehydration/infection between hours/days. Thanks to scientific advancements, in contemporary times life-saving surgery or this condition is available but this is not always the case. Before this surgery existed, many of these children suffered and died. Imagine a doctor with the capability to save this childs life, rescuing him/her from suffering but chooses (personal) not to? What would we think of this doctor? Now apply these standards to God. For an all-powerful God, a feat of altering this childs genes or at least fixing the obstruction is easy and harms no one else. The doctor may even have an excuse that he/she could lack the medical supplies, etc etc but not God. what logical reason could God have to let this baby suffer and die? Remember that it only takes a single unjust example of suffering to disprove an all-good god. I will grant that some evil may be necessary to compensate for a greater good but only which is logically necessary. ( All criticisms are recycled arguments , as are the responces....hard to be original in a timeless debate)


Theistic Responces to the Evil Argument


Unconcious Reply

There is no evil in the world. Those babies who suffer may not be concious.

Criticism

What then is the point of God making them squirm for us? a show? Does the absence of pain remove the evil of disability /death?

Privatization Reply

Evil does occur but it is merely a privatization of good. Just as Darkness in the absence of light.

Criticism

Pain hurts. Even if pain, death, murder, disability, etc etc were a privatization, it would not make it less real/evil.


The Glorious Responce

Evil maximizes the number of people who glorify God and seek salvation. God is not obligated to make humans happy but it is for us to glorify him.

Criticism

Egomaniac, anyone? Imagine a father who is not concerned to the happiness of his children but as long as they glorify him. Couldnt God find a different way other than evil, for us to glorify?

The Free Will Responce

our freedom of free will is worth the price of evil. Rejoice!

Criticism

As much as i rejoice free will, i must ask if a responsible father would permit his son to kill a fellow sibling? If so, wouldnt that father be guilty of a crime, a moral one of that? Could a murderer be stopped without effecting free will? for instance, crashing a computer of a online pedophile before he received the address of his next victim? free will would remain, no suffering would be committed. Does free will apply to natural evil? birth defects, weather, "acts of god", etc etc

The Contrast Responce

If the world was black, there would be no way of being aware that it is black, for we need another color to contrast. Likewise, we need evil to identify the good.

Criticism

Awareness could to the color black could be achieved via a speck of another color. For humans to be aware of evil, all we need is a speck of evil.


Punishment Responce

We suffer because of our sins. to suffer is God's retribution.

Criticism

And what is the sin of the baby i mentioned? Is the baby being punished for future sins, this would contrast with free will. Is the baby being punished for the sins of Adam and Eve? Thats collective punishment and deemed as immoral. why is the baby suffering at all?

Heavenly Responce

Meh. The people who suffer will be compensated in heaven!

Criticism

Why couldnt god just have brought the baby into heaven without the suffering? is suffering necessary to get into heaven? Is a father not immoral who beats his daughter but then rewards her with a gift in compensation? Is the beating still immoral in spite of the gift? Could he not have given the gift without the beating?

Virtuous Responce

Evil builds character. therefore this moral virtue compensates for the evil.

Criticism

Babies do not build character from suffering and then dying shortly after. Imagine if a teacher or parent used this justification. what would we think of them?

Standard Response

God goodness is different from human goodness. He is above our standards. God created us and we owe him everything.

Criticism

This admits God does is not morally sufficient to our ethics and we ought to worship him only out of fear. If God created us does that give him the right to abuse us? does might equal right? We cannot judge if god is good without applying him to our moral standards.

Responce

God has reason to allow evil but we cannot see it because we are merely humans.

Criticism

Suppose your neighbor has a kid that is permitted to suffer/starve in spite of the neighbor having aid, food, etc etc. Suppose this child dies as a result to the neglect of his needs. Would you assert that the neighbor is a moral being and must have a just reason this nonfeasance? If you are uncertain to the reasoning behind such neglect, do you naturally assume there is one? If there is no evidence of a compensating good for the suffering and death of a child, would you not be justified in assuming it were an evil act?

Additional Argument

If God is all knowing that is, he knows all that is true and God knows the future, are the murders and suffering not seen in advance as well? Therefore God knows of the suffering and murders to come, yes? So, if god is all powerful and does not stop such the even some of the questionable suffering, could we assert it was within God's will? Therefore, through his neglect, Gods permits needless suffering of babies. therefore god permits genocides. therefore god permits rapes. therefore God is evil.

Conclusion

Christians have a choice to these shenanigans. You can claim god is not all powerful or god is not all good. you cannot claim both. God is the ultimate deadbeat Dad.

This is a theist only area

[dbaeder]

The minor premis assumes that no amount of evil is logically necessary, which is a false assumption. What evil that exists is logically necessary in order to produce the greatest good from creatures who have been given free will and the greatest good is produced when the creatures have been given free will.

[themuzicman]

The minor premis assumes that no amount of evil is logically necessary, which is a false assumption. What evil that exists is logically necessary in order to produce the greatest good from creatures who have been given free will and the greatest good is produced when the creatures have been given free will.

So, it is necessary for most of mankind to be condemned to eternal torment, so that the greater good of the minority of men who find faith in God may have eternal life as God's chosen people?

Doesn't seem to be as good as having all of mankind be God's chosen people.

Michael

[dbaeder]

So, it is necessary for most of mankind to be condemned to eternal torment, so that the greater good of the minority of men who find faith in God may have eternal life as God's chosen people?

Doesn't seem to be as good as having all of mankind be God's chosen people.

Michael

Exactly!!!

We are limited, I believe, to three options. Option one: God forces his love upon us, making God a sort of spiritual rapist. Option two: God makes us so that we have no choice but to desire his love, making us nothing more than puppets on a string. Option three: God gives people a free will. Those who choose to serve him will be blessed, those who do not will suffer eternal torment. Please notice that there is an extreme difference between eternal torment and eternal torture. Eternal torment is existing forever knowing that you made the wrong choice.

[His child]

Exactly!!!

We are limited, I believe, to three options. Option one: God forces his love upon us, making God a sort of spiritual rapist. Option two: God makes us so that we have no choice but to desire his love, making us nothing more than puppets on a string. Option three: God gives people a free will. Those who choose to serve him will be blessed, those who do not will suffer eternal torment. Please notice that there is an extreme difference between eternal torment and eternal torture. Eternal torment is existing forever knowing that you made the wrong choice.

The Hebrew word for "evil" mentioned here is 'ra.

The definition that you supplied is correct. However, the same word with the same definition is used in Genesis 3:22. The Genesis passage explains why man was to be expelled from the Garden- "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

The original sin in picture is eating from the forbidden tree. The original sin in spirit is becoming as God in the judgment of good and evil. He did not want Adam and Eve to remain forever in that state which he never desired for them. The judgment was for God and God alone.


This has been a very interesting thread-read; I just stumbled across it.

Isaiah 45:7 states that YHWH created evil ('ra); what do you feel that means? I am one of those people who think Adam was the only person with free will; the rest of us are slaves. We are either a slave to the Adversary, due to the fall of Adam (not Eve), and those who have accepted the gift (because we have been called and blessed to accept the gift of salvation, not of ourselves, lest any man should boast, Paul puts it) are slaves to Christ (doulos, again as Paul puts it.) Any descendant of an evil one (such as Adam) is under the dominion, or authority, of the person who has authority over the originator of the sin.

In my studies, I surmise that evil is to put anything before YHWH ... anything at all! This is evil. Our concept of evil (IMHO) has been swayed by heresy, history, traditions, etc.

This helped me understand why Jesus would say to the rich young ruler in the gospels, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good, except God alone."

This is one of the statements that made me look at evil through YHWH's eyes (well, try, at least), and ask myself what is evil? Only the things that are put before Him, regardless of who or what it is. Is it God's will? No? Then, it must be evil ('ra or hamartia in Greek, missing the mark!). But, Adam had that choice!

We have been commanded to do many things for our Father in heaven. Believe He sent His Son to die for us. Be sealed with the power of the Holy Spirit, and let it indwell within us for our good. Love the LORD your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength (the first "commandment" given by Jesus).

To do anything outside of that would be 'ra. Saintopher, I commend your approach, your answers were excellent. I have a slightly (I think) different take that may or may not make sense to you.

[Michael-C]

Isaiah 45:7 states that YHWH created evil ('ra); what do you feel that means?

It's helpful to look at the rest of the verse in determining what that means. It begins, "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being [ESV; Hebrew: shalom] and create calamity [ESV; Hebrew ra'] ..." Here Isaiah presents a couple of opposing pairs: darkness is the opposite of light, "ra'" is the opposite of "shalom". Now, it's true that ra' can mean moral evil, but it can also mean disaster or calamity and the like, as was pointed out by Mr. Tinkles. To choose between the two kinds of ra', we can take a hint from the other side of the opposing pair: shalom---peace, well-being, wholeness (not moral goodness). Though moral evil may often entail a certain amount of chaos (opposite of "peace"), a more fitting opposite is the disaster/calamity sense of ra'.

So then, what does it mean in this passage that the LORD creates ra'? I think the statement makes sense only when coupled with its other half. God creates well-being and disaster (and the implication of the opposing pair includes everything inbetween), that is to say that the LORD is creator of all. After all, "[He is] the LORD, and there is no other, besides [Him] there is no God" (verse 5).

Michael C.

[His child]

It's helpful to look at the rest of the verse in determining what that means. It begins, "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being [ESV; Hebrew: shalom] and create calamity [ESV; Hebrew ra'] ..." Here Isaiah presents a couple of opposing pairs: darkness is the opposite of light, "ra'" is the opposite of "shalom". Now, it's true that ra' can mean moral evil, but it can also mean disaster or calamity and the like, as was pointed out by Mr. Tinkles. To choose between the two kinds of ra', we can take a hint from the other side of the opposing pair: shalom---peace, well-being, wholeness (not moral goodness). Though moral evil may often entail a certain amount of chaos (opposite of "peace"), a more fitting opposite is the disaster/calamity sense of ra'.

So then, what does it mean in this passage that the LORD creates ra'? I think the statement makes sense only when coupled with its other half. God creates well-being and disaster (and the implication of the opposing pair includes everything inbetween), that is to say that the LORD is creator of all. After all, "[He is] the LORD, and there is no other, besides [Him] there is no God" (verse 5).

Michael C.

Blessings to u and welcome to TWeb, Michael C.!

The coupling of the verse is mandatory, I agree; the problem still remains, however, as to what is evil. You didn't respond to the rest of the post, so I am somewhat at a loss to continue to respond. What do "the darkness" and "the evil" have in common?

They do not have YHWH as their focus. Numerous Scripture verses talk about the light from YHWH and the darkness that is in the hardened people's hearts or their hearing. After all, who is the "Prince of Peace?" If we look at making the parallel that we are discussing, we should probably do a verse hermeneutics on peace, evil, light, darkness.

God creates well-being and disaster (and the implication of the opposing pair includes everything inbetween), that is to say that the LORD is creator of all. After all, "[He is] the LORD, and there is no other, besides [Him] there is no God" (verse 5).

Once again, since nothing is created unless YHWH created it, this comes back to the concept of, what is evil. That is why I was looking for commentary on the rest of the post.

I look forward to seeing your posts; you obviously have a well thought approach to your faith ... and isn't that one of the wonderful blessings of this site!

In His service,
His child

[Michael-C]

the problem still remains, however, as to what is evil.

Are you asking what evil is in general or what the word ra' means in Isaiah 45:7? From your original question, I thought you were asking about the concept of God creating ra' as mentioned in Is 45 since it's difficult thinking that God would cause moral evil. The Hebrew word ra' doesn't always mean moral evil---sometimes it can mean disaster. I explained that I understood the verse to mean the latter.

What do "the darkness" and "the evil" have in common?

I'm not sure that this passage requires that they have anything in common. The two opposing pairs in verse seven, along with East/west in verse six, seem to me to be a literary device where the whole of a spectrum is invoked by mentioning only the extremities. (There's probably a name for this device, but I don't know it.) The passage's point is that the LORD is creator of and God over all things, and the two pairs are separate examples provided to make that point. I don't think it's addressing the question of moral evil.

They do not have YHWH as their focus. Numerous Scripture verses talk about the light from YHWH and the darkness that is in the hardened people's hearts or their hearing.

Yes, there are verses that use the imagery of light and darkness like that, but I have difficulty seeing how this is one of them.

Once again, since nothing is created unless YHWH created it, this comes back to the concept of, what is evil. That is why I was looking for commentary on the rest of the post.

I think your suggestion that evil (moral evil) has to do with putting other things before God is useful in understanding evil. But, I simply don't think that this verse is addressing that topic. Using the English evil for the Hebrew ra' here causes confusion. Better words---in this verse---are "disaster" or "calamity". When taken this way, there is less of a problem dealing with the verse's statement that the LORD causes ra'. If we want to learn about moral evil, though, we'll have to investigate other passages.

Michael C.

[His child]

Are you asking what evil is in general or what the word ra' means in Isaiah 45:7? From your original question, I thought you were asking about the concept of God creating ra' as mentioned in Is 45 since it's difficult thinking that God would cause moral evil. The Hebrew word ra' doesn't always mean moral evil---sometimes it can mean disaster. I explained that I understood the verse to mean the latter.



I'm not sure that this passage requires that they have anything in common. The two opposing pairs in verse seven, along with East/west in verse six, seem to me to be a literary device where the whole of a spectrum is invoked by mentioning only the extremities. (There's probably a name for this device, but I don't know it.) The passage's point is that the LORD is creator of and God over all things, and the two pairs are separate examples provided to make that point. I don't think it's addressing the question of moral evil.



Yes, there are verses that use the imagery of light and darkness like that, but I have difficulty seeing how this is one of them.



I think your suggestion that evil (moral evil) has to do with putting other things before God is useful in understanding evil. But, I simply don't think that this verse is addressing that topic. Using the English evil for the Hebrew ra' here causes confusion. Better words---in this verse---are "disaster" or "calamity". When taken this way, there is less of a problem dealing with the verse's statement that the LORD causes ra'. If we want to learn about moral evil, though, we'll have to investigate other passages.

Michael C.

Michael,

My question is to you, then, if this verse is not to be taken literally, who did create evil?

I understand some people say it just happened ... I totally disagree! For anything to happen, YHWH must create it for it to come into existence. Otherwise, someone else created something.

Some people say it is a mutation, or a twisting of YHWH's Word. Again, this makes no sense when YHWH is in total control, and gives dominion to whom He will.

So, where does evil come from? Who created anything, except our God?

The omissions of people in understanding evil helps people fall into the trap of idolatry, where we can make excuses for our own desires and cultural biases based upon what we are taught, what we learn.

In understanding evil, we must understand the concept of good versus evil. In the Garden of Eden, what tree was Adam and Eve told to stay away from? The tree of the knowledge of good and evil … who created that tree? What import did it have for the rest of mankind, the rest of civilization as we now know it?

Adam was given the choice not to eat from the tree, the tree that YHWH created, in the middle of the garden. Adam put us into bondage, the bondage that was only broken by the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ ... and we are now His, under His dominion.

In view of this post, "Does God do evil?" No, of course not. God does not do evil. God allowed us our choice, and we face the righteousness of God, and are punished for our own misdeeds, being under the dominion of the Adversary. Just because we don't look at ourselves as evil/sinners. etc., doesn't mean that we didn't have the initial options. Again, it is anything before YHWH, including our own desires, wants, etc.

I look forward to your reply.

His child

[mitzi]

It's helpful to look at the rest of the verse in determining what that means. It begins, "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being [ESV; Hebrew: shalom] and create calamity [ESV; Hebrew ra'] ..." Here Isaiah presents a couple of opposing pairs: darkness is the opposite of light, "ra'" is the opposite of "shalom". Now, it's true that ra' can mean moral evil, but it can also mean disaster or calamity and the like, as was pointed out by Mr. Tinkles. To choose between the two kinds of ra', we can take a hint from the other side of the opposing pair: shalom---peace, well-being, wholeness (not moral goodness). Though moral evil may often entail a certain amount of chaos (opposite of "peace"), a more fitting opposite is the disaster/calamity sense of ra'.

So then, what does it mean in this passage that the LORD creates ra'? I think the statement makes sense only when coupled with its other half. God creates well-being and disaster (and the implication of the opposing pair includes everything inbetween), that is to say that the LORD is creator of all. After all, "[He is] the LORD, and there is no other, besides [Him] there is no God" (verse 5).

Michael C.


Shalom Michael C.


I might be a little late on making a comment to your post but I think it's excellent.

As you have commented on Genesis....

And G-d said, Let there be light, and there was light.”1 This was the first of the utterances by which G-d created the world, and light was the first of all creations. (And as noted: “And G-d saw that it was good.” And the word “good” alludes to light, as it is written “And G-d saw the light9that it was good.”)

If light is the purpose of every created thing, it follows that it must also be the purpose of darkness itself. For darkness has a purpose, not merely that it should exist to be avoided (should present man with a choice between good and evil), but that it should be transformed into light.

We have choices "just as" Adam and Eve did, to turn away from evil (everyday in our lives). Doesn't this give us a "greater" faith when we have the ability to turn away from evil when need to reach out to G-d and ask for help and to teach us how to over come our "own" weakness and to learn that we need Him in our lives? (We are not self sufficient) Just a thought. Mitzi

********
But I have another question: To what length can evil go before G-d steps in? for example: Sodom & Gomorrah

"Because the cries of [the victims of] Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous."

[mitzi]

Michael,

My question is to you, then, if this verse is not to be taken literally, who did create evil?

I understand some people say it just happened ... I totally disagree! For anything to happen, YHWH must create it for it to come into existence. Otherwise, someone else created something.

Some people say it is a mutation, or a twisting of YHWH's Word. Again, this makes no sense when YHWH is in total control, and gives dominion to whom He will.

So, where does evil come from? Who created anything, except our God?

The omissions of people in understanding evil helps people fall into the trap of idolatry, where we can make excuses for our own desires and cultural biases based upon what we are taught, what we learn.

In understanding evil, we must understand the concept of good versus evil. In the Garden of Eden, what tree was Adam and Eve told to stay away from? The tree of the knowledge of good and evil … who created that tree? What import did it have for the rest of mankind, the rest of civilization as we now know it?

Adam was given the choice not to eat from the tree, the tree that YHWH created, in the middle of the garden. Adam put us into bondage, the bondage that was only broken by the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ ... and we are now His, under His dominion.

In view of this post, "Does God do evil?" No, of course not. God does not do evil. God allowed us our choice, and we face the righteousness of God, and are punished for our own misdeeds, being under the dominion of the Adversary. Just because we don't look at ourselves as evil/sinners. etc., doesn't mean that we didn't have the initial options. Again, it is anything before YHWH, including our own desires, wants, etc.

I look forward to your reply.

His child


Shalom His child;

Among all G-d's creations, G-d created a single creature, man, with the freedom to choose between good and evil, between fulfillment of the divine will and its defiance. Within hours of their creation, the first man and woman chose the latter. They had been commanded not to eat of the fruit of a certain tree, and they violated this commandment.


Doesn't this say that man brought evil into the world? Where evil originated at:

Perhaps it's why the Bible opens with Creation—to teach us that G-d is the Source of everything: “I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil” (Isaiah). Good is permanent and is the main ingredient in creating the world, while evil is transitory (Genesis). Why did G-d create evil? So that we can reject it.

***************************************

There was a story that was told awhile back about a German officer who ask a Rabbi ...If G-d is all seeing and all knowing then why did "He" have to ask Adam "Where" he was in the garden after he picked of the forbidden fruit? The Rabbi answered: G-d knew where Adam was...The question is....Did Adam realize where he was at?


Metaphorically speaking: G-d realizes "where" we're at in our own personal garden of eden and "what" sin we committed....but do "we" realize it, yet? Or do we think "in the same respect as Adam and Eve" that one can hide it from Him?

My thought is: There isn't a problem G-d can't fix but we need to ask to be forgiven, first.

Mitzi

[His child]

Shalom His child;

Among all G-d's creations, G-d created a single creature, man, with the freedom to choose between good and evil, between fulfillment of the divine will and its defiance. Within hours of their creation, the first man and woman chose the latter. They had been commanded not to eat of the fruit of a certain tree, and they violated this commandment.


Doesn't this say that man brought evil into the world? Where evil originated at:

Perhaps it's why the Bible opens with Creation—to teach us that G-d is the Source of everything: “I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil” (Isaiah). Good is permanent and is the main ingredient in creating the world, while evil is transitory (Genesis). Why did G-d create evil? So that we can reject it.

***************************************

There was a story that was told awhile back about a German officer who ask a Rabbi ...If G-d is all seeing and all knowing then why did "He" have to ask Adam "Where" he was in the garden after he picked of the forbidden fruit? The Rabbi answered: G-d knew where Adam was...The question is....Did Adam realize where he was at?


Metaphorically speaking: G-d realizes "where" we're at in our own personal garden of eden and "what" sin we committed....but do "we" realize it, yet? Or do we think "in the same respect as Adam and Eve" that one can hide it from Him?

My thought is: There isn't a problem G-d can't fix but we need to ask to be forgiven, first.

Mitzi

Shalom Mitzi (another freshman like myself!),

I appreciate our desire to look at evil in the way that you are, but this concept, in my estimation, does not do justice for what YHWH gave to Adam, therefore the whole human race when Christ came to redeem us.

In Romans, Paul states:

16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

In your response to me, you didn't address what I consider a key point: who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Continuing on that point, I have stated this before in this thread (at least, I think it was this thread), but will do so again ... what is evil? Putting anything (choice, thought, word, deed, desires ... anything!) before our Creator. This is His world, and we are His creation. As Isaiah said:

8"Drip down, O heavens, from above,
And let the clouds pour down righteousness;
Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit,
And righteousness spring up with it.
I, the LORD, have created it.
9"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker--
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?'
Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands'?

YHWH does not do evil, He righteously judges iniquity. But who created anything, if not the YHWH.

I still am waiting for someone to explain how anything can come into being without being created. I am also waiting to have someone show me where we have free will. Paul says very plainly:

17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

A slave is under the authority of the person who has power over him/her. I don't understand how people who are slaves have free will. I think that is a cultural bias from people who are warriors, who prize freedom ... but, is it truly freedom that we have? If this is YHWH's world, it is His, and He grants dominion to whom He will. Adam gave that away after the transgression.

We do not have the same options as Adam.

I look forward to your reply,

His child

[mitzi]

Hello, His child,

My biggest apologies to you! Yes, G-d "is" most loving! and He is there to teach and to help us! But you are asking a question that states; Where did "evil" originate: before the angels, after Adam or before creation? Who brought "evil" into the realms (universe)? Evil is not something that was created all on "it's" own...there must of been a beginning. We are told that the angels were not given "Free Will"....only human beings were given that right.


To make this freedom of choice real, God also had to create the possibility of evil. If nothing but good were possible, it would produce no benefit. To use the Talmudic metaphor, it would be like carrying a lamp in broad daylight. The Zohar thus states, "The advantage of wisdom comes from darkness. If there were no darkness, then light would not be discernible, and would produce no benefit...Thus it is written, "God has made one thing opposite the other" (Ecclesiastes 7:14).



But I want to note acouple of comments:

You say that G-d did not create "evil"....and this might be food for thought: We term "evil" as the opposite of "good" or "darkness" opposed to "the light". So how could G-d create anything evil? When He "is" a loving G-d and quick to forgive us for any offenses.

**We looked at the beginnning with Adam and Eve picking of the forbidden fruit...( As noted in my previous commentary about the German officer and the Rabbi: If G-d was "all" knowing and "all" seeing then "Why did G-d have to ask Adam where he was?".)

**Which poses another question: Again, If G-d is all knowing and all seeing wouldn't G-d have forseen this event? and if so, why put the tree in the Garden of Eden when G-d knew that Adam was going to sin? Why go there???? Or how can G-d judge, if, someone else brought evil into the world? Why would that make us obligated to the sin?

Answer: Free Will.


What is the essential characteristic which enables one to withstand successfully all tests?.... It is the ability to bring our baser nature under the control of our higher yearnings. It is the ability to do battle with the evil impulse and conquer it; to confront the truth in the innermost depths of the heart; to refuse to be swayed by the falsehood which pretends it is the truth.
Michtav M'Eliyahu, Rabbi E. Dessler, The Attribute of Mercy



Please read: (my notation on my last post where taken from this website)

Did G-d Create Evil? Ask Moses.


In the months since September 11th, askmoses.com has been flooded with many heartfelt inquiries: “Why did this happen?” “Does G-d cause suffering?” “How can a religion be the cause of such evil?” Following are some excerpts. If you have questions, the answer may only be a “click” away by going to the website www.askmoses.com.


Janice19: Did G-d create evil? If so, why?

Ask Moses: This is one of the most puzzling questions of all time. Perhaps it is why the Bible opens with Creation—to teach us that G-d is the Source of everything: “I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil” (Isaiah).

As for the “why,” that’s a little harder to understand. Good is permanent and is the main ingredient in creating the world, while evil is transitory (Genesis). The Kabbalah teaches that Adam, the first human, was a composite of all future souls of humankind. So when he (all of us) ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, evil was “mixed” into the world’s inherent goodness. Since we collectively brought evil into the world, we now have the responsibility to elevate it. Throughout our day, we are given opportunities to correct the mistake that humanity made at a less mature stage of our existence by choosing to “do good and turn away from evil” (Psalms). By choosing wisely, we illuminate the darkest corners of the universe and return a spark of Creation to its original, pristine state. Why did G-d create evil? So that we can reject it.

Thanks His Child....Your posting are "awesome"!!!!!
Mitzi

[His child]

Hello, His child,

My biggest apologies to you! Yes, G-d "is" most loving! and He is there to teach and to help us! But you are asking a question that states; Where did "evil" originate: before the angels, after Adam or before creation? Who brought "evil" into the realms (universe)? Evil is not something that was created all on "it's" own...there must of been a beginning. We are told that the angels were not given "Free Will"....only human beings were given that right.


To make this freedom of choice real, God also had to create the possibility of evil. If nothing but good were possible, it would produce no benefit. To use the Talmudic metaphor, it would be like carrying a lamp in broad daylight. The Zohar thus states, "The advantage of wisdom comes from darkness. If there were no darkness, then light would not be discernible, and would produce no benefit...Thus it is written, "God has made one thing opposite the other" (Ecclesiastes 7:14).



But I want to note acouple of comments:

You say that G-d did not create "evil"....and this might be food for thought: We term "evil" as the opposite of "good" or "darkness" opposed to "the light". So how could G-d create anything evil? When He "is" a loving G-d and quick to forgive us for any offenses.

**We looked at the beginnning with Adam and Eve picking of the forbidden fruit...( As noted in my previous commentary about the German officer and the Rabbi: If G-d was "all" knowing and "all" seeing then "Why did G-d have to ask Adam where he was?".)

**Which poses another question: Again, If G-d is all knowing and all seeing wouldn't G-d have forseen this event? and if so, why put the tree in the Garden of Eden when G-d knew that Adam was going to sin? Why go there???? Or how can G-d judge, if, someone else brought evil into the world? Why would that make us obligated to the sin?

Answer: Free Will.


What is the essential characteristic which enables one to withstand successfully all tests?.... It is the ability to bring our baser nature under the control of our higher yearnings. It is the ability to do battle with the evil impulse and conquer it; to confront the truth in the innermost depths of the heart; to refuse to be swayed by the falsehood which pretends it is the truth.
Michtav M'Eliyahu, Rabbi E. Dessler, The Attribute of Mercy



Please read: (my notation on my last post where taken from this website)

Did G-d Create Evil? Ask Moses.


In the months since September 11th, askmoses.com has been flooded with many heartfelt inquiries: “Why did this happen?” “Does G-d cause suffering?” “How can a religion be the cause of such evil?” Following are some excerpts. If you have questions, the answer may only be a “click” away by going to the website www.askmoses.com.


Janice19: Did G-d create evil? If so, why?

Ask Moses: This is one of the most puzzling questions of all time. Perhaps it is why the Bible opens with Creation—to teach us that G-d is the Source of everything: “I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil” (Isaiah).

As for the “why,” that’s a little harder to understand. Good is permanent and is the main ingredient in creating the world, while evil is transitory (Genesis). The Kabbalah teaches that Adam, the first human, was a composite of all future souls of humankind. So when he (all of us) ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, evil was “mixed” into the world’s inherent goodness. Since we collectively brought evil into the world, we now have the responsibility to elevate it. Throughout our day, we are given opportunities to correct the mistake that humanity made at a less mature stage of our existence by choosing to “do good and turn away from evil” (Psalms). By choosing wisely, we illuminate the darkest corners of the universe and return a spark of Creation to its original, pristine state. Why did G-d create evil? So that we can reject it.

Thanks His Child....Your posting are "awesome"!!!!!
Mitzi


First Mitzi, Shalom and thanks so much for the kind words and actions. You are a very thoughtful person, as well as an excellent presenter of your faith.

I must make one correction.

But I want to note acouple of comments:

You say that G-d did not create "evil"....and this might be food for thought: We term "evil" as the opposite of "good" or "darkness" opposed to "the light". So how could G-d create anything evil? When He "is" a loving G-d and quick to forgive us for any offenses.

I do believe YHWH created evil. He is the only one that can create anything. Isaiah 45:7 states that simply;followed up with His creating the tree of knowledge of good and evil ... who else could have?

**Which poses another question: Again, If G-d is all knowing and all seeing wouldn't G-d have forseen this event? and if so, why put the tree in the Garden of Eden when G-d knew that Adam was going to sin? Why go there???? Or how can G-d judge, if, someone else brought evil into the world? Why would that make us obligated to the sin?

Answer: Free Will.

I totally agree. Adam had free will. He was the only person, in humanity, to have free will. As for the last two questions, I believe the Hebrew/Israelite inheritance pattern will provide that clue.

The OT word inheritance, nāhal (verb, to posess) and nahălāh (noun, possession, property), is what I am basing this nest part. Legally speaking, all that come the line of Adam are Adam's possession. He bequeaths to his line what we have for dominion, authority, etc. He was to pass along the dominion he was given by YHWH.

26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

28God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

29Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.

31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

This dominion was our inheritance, to all mankind, for that was YHWH's desire. He blessed Adam with the free will to serve Him.

When Adam fell, his whole line fell with him. The stain, the curse, the 'ra (evil, Hebrew) was now upon him and his descendants.


17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

I don't feel we, on our own, can reject evil. Flee? Oh yes! I believe we have to let Jesus and the "Breath of YHWH," the Holy Spirit, fight this fight for us. They are the only way to reject evil. Jesus died and was resurrected to do this very thing!

Throughout our day, we are given opportunities to correct the mistake that humanity made at a less mature stage of our existence by choosing to “do good and turn away from evil” (Psalms). By choosing wisely, we illuminate the darkest corners of the universe and return a spark of Creation to its original, pristine state.

It is most desirous! The only thing I would add to that is, it is the power of the Holy Spirit that does my good works, for as Paul says,

15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

The good that I would, I do not ... but, our current inheritance in Christ Jesus gives new riches in our life!

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

These laws seem to be Adam's loss of free will; we are sold to the Adversary, for breaking fellowship with YHWH. That is righteousness for choosing evil, not YHWH doing evil.

So, it means something when people like Twebbers, you and I work at understanding our rights and position in our faith.

Our words become powerful, because we release YHWH's Word! He promises it will not come back empty and void!

Shalom and blessings!

His child

[mitzi]

Shalom & Many wonderful blessing to you His Child:

Yechezkel has "Many" passages that are very good to read through, as well as, Zechariah!

Especially Yechezkel 18: 21-30. Quoting acouple of verse:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD; wherefore turn yourselves, and live.


Zechariah 3: 6-10 & Zechariah 4:1-14


Listing a couple of verses out of those two chapters:

Zechariah 3: 9-10

9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone are seven facets; behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts: And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig-tree.


Zechariah 4:6

6 Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying: 'This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying: Not by might, nor by power, but by My spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.


Take Care,
Mitzi

[His child]

Shalom & Many wonderful blessing to you His Child:

Yechezkel has "Many" passages that are very good to read through, as well as, Zechariah!

Especially Yechezkel 18: 21-30. Quoting acouple of verse:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD; wherefore turn yourselves, and live.


Zechariah 3: 6-10 & Zechariah 4:1-14


Listing a couple of verses out of those two chapters:

Zechariah 3: 9-10

9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone are seven facets; behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts: And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig-tree.


Zechariah 4:6

6 Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying: 'This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying: Not by might, nor by power, but by My spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.


Take Care,
Mitzi

Mitzi,

I have great respect for your OT knowledge, and how you are synergizing OT and NT themes. I would like to ask you some questions that I do not think are appropriate for open threads. If you are comfortable, private message me.

Blessings,

His child

[mitzi]

Mitzi,

I have great respect for your OT knowledge, and how you are synergizing OT and NT themes. I would like to ask you some questions that I do not think are appropriate for open threads. If you are comfortable, private message me.

Blessings,

His child


You bet!....now how do I email you, privately? :huh:

[mitzi]

Also, just so you know, I work odd hours between home duties and offices duties.....and the times may vary, alot. Mitzi