Mandalorious
June 11th 2003, 07:27 PM
Since this would really throw that other thead off track, I decided that this would be a better place for it, and it'll be a good starting point for a new thread where we won't get any of the other stuff there tossed into this discussion.
(not sure if this fits in the rules, ?"Crossposting"? but I don't think that the "science" forum would be a good place to discuss this, so I'll take what I hope is the "lesser of two evils", but anyway) :
Today @ 12:05 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=120084#post120084)
Richard Romano:
Dear M.
Tell me, when atheists ruled in the Soviet Union and other parts of the world, what were the casualties then? This is as unfair as your gross oversimplification. The fact that you remain unspecific is an even worse logical error.I’m just providing “the other side” of the story that AIG and other YEC groups dish out. In their writings they give christianity the credit for anything good, and blame “evolution” for anything that’s bad. You want “gross oversimplification”? Spend an afternoon at AIG reading their stuff. Especially any of those “CreationWise” cartoons, or the “editorials”.
Now, about those casuality rates, under “atheism”, the reason that they’re so high, is: 1) more people alive, due to better agricultural practices 2)more efficient weaponry. What Carl Weiland in his “Bloodstained Century of Evolution” article doesn’t mention. As for oversimplification, he, as does any good creationist, blame the Holocaust on evolution. But, he fails to take into account that the Jews were persecuted for CENTURIES before Darwin came along. To that matter, Darwin never said anything against the jews, and didn’t even believe that the human race could be divided up into distinct “races”. That doesn’t stop the YECs, though from saying that racism/nazism is “consistent” with evolution!
No wonder the creationists aren’t taken seriously in the scientific community.
But the real issue is that you are taking on a self-righteous attitude that condemns Christians, period, without looking at the benefits that Christians have provided to our world.Again, read AIG’s stuff or ICR’s stuff. To hear them talk, christians have done nothing BUT good, yet history shows that to be not the case. You want “self-righteous attitude”? Again, just read their sites. All I’m doing, to paraphrase Rush Limbaugh is: “I don’t give equal time, I am equal time”.
The only difference is, on those creationist sites, evolutionists do not really get a chance to defend themselves. Any response they make, is selected before it’s posted! By posting on this board, I am giving christians a chance to defend themselves. When you complain to AIG and ICR, etc about their “self-righteous attitude” then you’ll be consistent in it’s condemnation.
Do you know of an atheist foundation that founded a hospital, or built a school for underprivileged people? If there is one, I'll gladly salute their sacrifice, but from what I have seen, such has not been the case.
There is this in India (http://www.positiveatheism.org/india/lavspch.htm),
Now, to get to our speaker: Lavanam -- single name -- that's it! He is the head of the Atheist Center in India which is a large organization. They do incredible works. They have schools; they have hospitals; they have farms for poor people. They have all kinds of active things and Lavanam is and has been, for all of his life, a Very Positive Atheist. He is going to talk to us about some of the things they are doing in India -- some of the very positive Atheist things that are happening throughout the world and I don't want to take up the hour and a half we have allotted to this for a long introduction, so let's bring on:
but apparently Secular Humanists have set up some…maybe more later.
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/jp-ath.htm
Well, speaking of self-righteousness, read a little about Florence Nightingale (http://www.secularhumanism.org/columns/history/inspired.htm)
As Faulkenberry noted, many of the heroes and leaders of recent history could reasonably be considered freethinkers or secular humanists: Florence Nightingale, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Matilda Joslyn Gage, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, and many others. Nightingale did more for health than any founders of hospitals, and Jefferson did found a college, the University of Virginia, that was one of the first anywhere not to have a theological school.
Here’s something for you to look at (http://www.losingmyreligion.com/articlesf/christian_charity.html).
"And where are the atheist hospitals?" they tauntingly ask. "We don't see any atheist programs to help the poor and needy," they jeer.
But these claims are far weaker than they may appear. In Muslim countries, for example, there are Muslim schools and charities. In countries dominated by Buddhists we see Buddhist institutions. Even in Cuba, there are schools, hospitals, and public aid organizations, a fact that is frequently pointed to by apologists for Castro. So why should it be thought unusual that, where Christians are to be found in great numbers, there also are to be found Christian-sponsored charitable organizations?
If Christianity were so spectacularly marked by the urge to give to others without asking anything in return, Christian institutions would have done far more than they have. As it is, almost all religious hospitals, clinics, schools, and colleges charge and collect fees that are the same as, or very little different than, similar non-religious organizations. Those associated with religious groups may receive modest or token subsidies, either in the form of cash from generous believers (and unbelievers!) or in the form of free labor provided by an order of monks, nuns, priests, and other volunteers. But the secular organizations engaged in the same activities manage not only to survive without such help but pay taxes to the state and dividends to their shareholders as well. A reasonable person would conclude that the religiously-affiliated schools and hospitals, far from being praiseworthy examples of altruism, are, in fact, inefficient and wasteful of money and resources.
Little wonder why Socrates doesn't take you seriously.I’ll lose a lot of sleep over that.
regards,
Richard. Just as Socrates, ICR, AIG, CRF, etc. takes a self-righteous attitude that condemns all non-christians, period, and calls them a bunch of names to boot! How is one worse than the other?
About Atheist hospitals, given that they only account for ~14% of the population, how many hospitals do you think they could set up, especially in a religious society that’s hostile to them? Besides, out of all the hospitals that exist, how many are christian, how many are secular? The athiests see no reason to set up pulic services to convert people. Remember how the Salvation Army got started? They have no reason to force their views on anyone. Besides, we have SECULAR hospitals.
Ah well, here’s a little something:
http://www.atheists.org/tn/johnson.html
Madalyn O’Hair, Jon Murray and Bill Talley of Colorado (who is now deceased) established an American Atheists Alcohol Recovery Group which was able to have the Veteran’s Administration rule that veterans in veteran’s hospitals must be provided secular services in addition to the Christian Alcoholics Anonymous and Palmer Drug Abuse methods. Atheists have to fight to get non religious alternatives!
Madalyn O’Hair and Jon Murray worked with Arnold Via of Virginia, a former board member, to create the first Atheist cemetery in the United States. It is no longer available for use.
American Atheists opened the first full-fledged, all-Atheist book store in the United States in Denver, Colorado, and the second in Austin, Texas. Madalyn O’Hair was able to obtain a ruling from the Veterans’ Administration to add to the grave markers in veteran’s cemeteries the symbol of American Atheism.
Non-religious groups: Amnesty International, UNESCO, UNICEF, Secular Organizations for Sobriety (http://www.cfiwest.org/sos/brochures/priority.htm)
http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/ingersollsermon.html
Hospitals: It is cheerfully admitted that hospitals and asylums have been built by Christians in Christian countries, and it is also admitted that hospitals and asylums have been built in countries not Christian; that there were such institutions in China thousands of years before Christ was born, and that many centuries before the establishment of any orthodox church there were asylums on the banks of the Nile -- asylums for the old, the poor, the infirm -- asylums for the blind and for the insane. and that the Egyptians, even of those days. endeavored to cure insanity with kindness and affection. The same is true of India and probably of most ancient nations.
So in ancient Greece it is said that "from the hands of the priest the cure of the disordered mind first passed into the domain of medicine, with the philosophers. Pythagoras is said to have employed music for the cure of mental diseases. The order of the day for his disciples exhibits a profound knowledge of the relations of body and mind. The early morning was divided between gentle exercise, conversation and music. Then came conversation, followed by gymnastic exercise and a temperate diet. Afterward, a bath and supper with a sparing allowance of wine; then reading, music and conversation concluded the day."
So "Asclupiades was celebrated for his treatment of mental disorders. He recommended that bodily restraint should be avoided as much as possible." It is also stated that "the philosophy and arts of Greece spread to Rome, and the first special treatise on insanity is that of Celsus, which distinguishes varieties of insanity and their proper treatment."
You’re not going to claim that christianity is responsible for the establishment of hospitals in the world, are you? Non-christians, indeed “pagan” set that up first!
PS: about your sig: You do realize that Werner Braun was a Nazi?
From Time, Online Edition (http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,220201,00.html):
Tuesday, Mar. 26, 2002
The Rocket Man's Dark Side
Many scientists insist Wernher von Braun only observed German concentration camps. New revelations tell a very different story
BY LEON JAROFF
For reasons best known to von Braun, who held the rank of colonel in the dreaded Nazi SS, the prisoners were ordered to turn their backs whenever he came into view. Those caught stealing glances at him were hung. One survivor recalled that von Braun, after inspecting a rocket component, charged, "That is clear sabotage." His unquestioned judgment resulted in eleven men being hanged on the spot. Says Gehrels, "von Braun was directly involved in hangings."
Hangings were commonplace, and Dora inmates remember von Braun arriving in the morning with an unidentified woman, having to step between bodies of dead prisoners and under others still hanging from a crane. These were not ordinary hangings, Gehrels says, "not hanging that breaks the neck of the prisoner, but they were slowly choked to death with a kind of baling wire around their neck."
In the early days at Dora, condemned men often shouted anti-Nazi slogans to the other prisoners, who were forced to watch the hangings. But the SS soon put an end to that. It became routine to silence the condemned by propping open their mouths with little sticks held in place by baling wire looped around their necks. In a postwar visit to the museum set up at Dora to document the horrors of the camp, Gehrels saw some of those sticks on display, as well as photographs of von Braun at Dora, lest anyone believe that he wasn't present to witness and help perpetrate the horrors.
That's that for now...
(not sure if this fits in the rules, ?"Crossposting"? but I don't think that the "science" forum would be a good place to discuss this, so I'll take what I hope is the "lesser of two evils", but anyway) :
Today @ 12:05 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=120084#post120084)
Richard Romano:
Dear M.
Tell me, when atheists ruled in the Soviet Union and other parts of the world, what were the casualties then? This is as unfair as your gross oversimplification. The fact that you remain unspecific is an even worse logical error.I’m just providing “the other side” of the story that AIG and other YEC groups dish out. In their writings they give christianity the credit for anything good, and blame “evolution” for anything that’s bad. You want “gross oversimplification”? Spend an afternoon at AIG reading their stuff. Especially any of those “CreationWise” cartoons, or the “editorials”.
Now, about those casuality rates, under “atheism”, the reason that they’re so high, is: 1) more people alive, due to better agricultural practices 2)more efficient weaponry. What Carl Weiland in his “Bloodstained Century of Evolution” article doesn’t mention. As for oversimplification, he, as does any good creationist, blame the Holocaust on evolution. But, he fails to take into account that the Jews were persecuted for CENTURIES before Darwin came along. To that matter, Darwin never said anything against the jews, and didn’t even believe that the human race could be divided up into distinct “races”. That doesn’t stop the YECs, though from saying that racism/nazism is “consistent” with evolution!
No wonder the creationists aren’t taken seriously in the scientific community.
But the real issue is that you are taking on a self-righteous attitude that condemns Christians, period, without looking at the benefits that Christians have provided to our world.Again, read AIG’s stuff or ICR’s stuff. To hear them talk, christians have done nothing BUT good, yet history shows that to be not the case. You want “self-righteous attitude”? Again, just read their sites. All I’m doing, to paraphrase Rush Limbaugh is: “I don’t give equal time, I am equal time”.
The only difference is, on those creationist sites, evolutionists do not really get a chance to defend themselves. Any response they make, is selected before it’s posted! By posting on this board, I am giving christians a chance to defend themselves. When you complain to AIG and ICR, etc about their “self-righteous attitude” then you’ll be consistent in it’s condemnation.
Do you know of an atheist foundation that founded a hospital, or built a school for underprivileged people? If there is one, I'll gladly salute their sacrifice, but from what I have seen, such has not been the case.
There is this in India (http://www.positiveatheism.org/india/lavspch.htm),
Now, to get to our speaker: Lavanam -- single name -- that's it! He is the head of the Atheist Center in India which is a large organization. They do incredible works. They have schools; they have hospitals; they have farms for poor people. They have all kinds of active things and Lavanam is and has been, for all of his life, a Very Positive Atheist. He is going to talk to us about some of the things they are doing in India -- some of the very positive Atheist things that are happening throughout the world and I don't want to take up the hour and a half we have allotted to this for a long introduction, so let's bring on:
but apparently Secular Humanists have set up some…maybe more later.
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/jp-ath.htm
Well, speaking of self-righteousness, read a little about Florence Nightingale (http://www.secularhumanism.org/columns/history/inspired.htm)
As Faulkenberry noted, many of the heroes and leaders of recent history could reasonably be considered freethinkers or secular humanists: Florence Nightingale, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Matilda Joslyn Gage, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, and many others. Nightingale did more for health than any founders of hospitals, and Jefferson did found a college, the University of Virginia, that was one of the first anywhere not to have a theological school.
Here’s something for you to look at (http://www.losingmyreligion.com/articlesf/christian_charity.html).
"And where are the atheist hospitals?" they tauntingly ask. "We don't see any atheist programs to help the poor and needy," they jeer.
But these claims are far weaker than they may appear. In Muslim countries, for example, there are Muslim schools and charities. In countries dominated by Buddhists we see Buddhist institutions. Even in Cuba, there are schools, hospitals, and public aid organizations, a fact that is frequently pointed to by apologists for Castro. So why should it be thought unusual that, where Christians are to be found in great numbers, there also are to be found Christian-sponsored charitable organizations?
If Christianity were so spectacularly marked by the urge to give to others without asking anything in return, Christian institutions would have done far more than they have. As it is, almost all religious hospitals, clinics, schools, and colleges charge and collect fees that are the same as, or very little different than, similar non-religious organizations. Those associated with religious groups may receive modest or token subsidies, either in the form of cash from generous believers (and unbelievers!) or in the form of free labor provided by an order of monks, nuns, priests, and other volunteers. But the secular organizations engaged in the same activities manage not only to survive without such help but pay taxes to the state and dividends to their shareholders as well. A reasonable person would conclude that the religiously-affiliated schools and hospitals, far from being praiseworthy examples of altruism, are, in fact, inefficient and wasteful of money and resources.
Little wonder why Socrates doesn't take you seriously.I’ll lose a lot of sleep over that.
regards,
Richard. Just as Socrates, ICR, AIG, CRF, etc. takes a self-righteous attitude that condemns all non-christians, period, and calls them a bunch of names to boot! How is one worse than the other?
About Atheist hospitals, given that they only account for ~14% of the population, how many hospitals do you think they could set up, especially in a religious society that’s hostile to them? Besides, out of all the hospitals that exist, how many are christian, how many are secular? The athiests see no reason to set up pulic services to convert people. Remember how the Salvation Army got started? They have no reason to force their views on anyone. Besides, we have SECULAR hospitals.
Ah well, here’s a little something:
http://www.atheists.org/tn/johnson.html
Madalyn O’Hair, Jon Murray and Bill Talley of Colorado (who is now deceased) established an American Atheists Alcohol Recovery Group which was able to have the Veteran’s Administration rule that veterans in veteran’s hospitals must be provided secular services in addition to the Christian Alcoholics Anonymous and Palmer Drug Abuse methods. Atheists have to fight to get non religious alternatives!
Madalyn O’Hair and Jon Murray worked with Arnold Via of Virginia, a former board member, to create the first Atheist cemetery in the United States. It is no longer available for use.
American Atheists opened the first full-fledged, all-Atheist book store in the United States in Denver, Colorado, and the second in Austin, Texas. Madalyn O’Hair was able to obtain a ruling from the Veterans’ Administration to add to the grave markers in veteran’s cemeteries the symbol of American Atheism.
Non-religious groups: Amnesty International, UNESCO, UNICEF, Secular Organizations for Sobriety (http://www.cfiwest.org/sos/brochures/priority.htm)
http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/ingersollsermon.html
Hospitals: It is cheerfully admitted that hospitals and asylums have been built by Christians in Christian countries, and it is also admitted that hospitals and asylums have been built in countries not Christian; that there were such institutions in China thousands of years before Christ was born, and that many centuries before the establishment of any orthodox church there were asylums on the banks of the Nile -- asylums for the old, the poor, the infirm -- asylums for the blind and for the insane. and that the Egyptians, even of those days. endeavored to cure insanity with kindness and affection. The same is true of India and probably of most ancient nations.
So in ancient Greece it is said that "from the hands of the priest the cure of the disordered mind first passed into the domain of medicine, with the philosophers. Pythagoras is said to have employed music for the cure of mental diseases. The order of the day for his disciples exhibits a profound knowledge of the relations of body and mind. The early morning was divided between gentle exercise, conversation and music. Then came conversation, followed by gymnastic exercise and a temperate diet. Afterward, a bath and supper with a sparing allowance of wine; then reading, music and conversation concluded the day."
So "Asclupiades was celebrated for his treatment of mental disorders. He recommended that bodily restraint should be avoided as much as possible." It is also stated that "the philosophy and arts of Greece spread to Rome, and the first special treatise on insanity is that of Celsus, which distinguishes varieties of insanity and their proper treatment."
You’re not going to claim that christianity is responsible for the establishment of hospitals in the world, are you? Non-christians, indeed “pagan” set that up first!
PS: about your sig: You do realize that Werner Braun was a Nazi?
From Time, Online Edition (http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,220201,00.html):
Tuesday, Mar. 26, 2002
The Rocket Man's Dark Side
Many scientists insist Wernher von Braun only observed German concentration camps. New revelations tell a very different story
BY LEON JAROFF
For reasons best known to von Braun, who held the rank of colonel in the dreaded Nazi SS, the prisoners were ordered to turn their backs whenever he came into view. Those caught stealing glances at him were hung. One survivor recalled that von Braun, after inspecting a rocket component, charged, "That is clear sabotage." His unquestioned judgment resulted in eleven men being hanged on the spot. Says Gehrels, "von Braun was directly involved in hangings."
Hangings were commonplace, and Dora inmates remember von Braun arriving in the morning with an unidentified woman, having to step between bodies of dead prisoners and under others still hanging from a crane. These were not ordinary hangings, Gehrels says, "not hanging that breaks the neck of the prisoner, but they were slowly choked to death with a kind of baling wire around their neck."
In the early days at Dora, condemned men often shouted anti-Nazi slogans to the other prisoners, who were forced to watch the hangings. But the SS soon put an end to that. It became routine to silence the condemned by propping open their mouths with little sticks held in place by baling wire looped around their necks. In a postwar visit to the museum set up at Dora to document the horrors of the camp, Gehrels saw some of those sticks on display, as well as photographs of von Braun at Dora, lest anyone believe that he wasn't present to witness and help perpetrate the horrors.
That's that for now...