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yxboom
June 11th 2003, 10:58 PM
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/images/articles/ICN.gifICN MINISTRIES (http://www.icnministries.org)
UNEQUAL WEIGHTS AND MEASURES

By DR. MICHAEL L. BROWN -- UMJC THEOLOGY FORUM, 1991
A CRITIQUE OF THE METHODOLOGY OF THE ANTI-MISSIONARIES


The biblical injunction against false weights and measures is repeated throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, elaborated in the Talmud, treated under three separate headings in the rabbinic literature on the 613 commandments, and codified by Maimonides in his Mishneh Torah (taking up two whole chapters), by Yaakov Ben Asher in his Arba‘ah Turim and by Yoseph Karo in his Shulhan Arukh (the entry in Hoshen Mishpat including 28 subdivisions). [FN1]
The first occurrence of this important command is at the close of the holiness precepts in:
Lev. 19 (vv. 35-37): “You shall not falsify measures of length, weight, or capacity. You shall have an honest balance, honest weights, an honest ephah, and an honest hin. I the Lord am your God who freed you from the land of Egypt. You shall faithfully observe My laws and all My rules: I am the Lord” (NJV).
The fact that these words follow vv. 33-34, which enjoin the people of Israel to love the stranger who resides among them as they love themselves, was not missed by the rabbis. [FN2] More fully, the injunction is repeated in:
Deut. 25:13-16: “You shall not have in your pouch alternate weights, larger and smaller. You shall not have in your house alternate measures, a larger and a smaller. You must have completely honest weights and completely honest measures, if you are to endure long on the soil that the Lord your God is giving you. For everyone who does those things, everyone who deals dishonestly, is abhorrent to the Lord your God.”
The principle of this prohibition is clear: It is forbidden to use a short weight/measure when weighing out the produce sold, while using a large weight/measure when weighing out the money received in payment. It is deceitful, unjust, and unfair. That’s why the Scripture promises the people of Israel long life on their native soil if they would be obedient to this rule. As expressed by Abraham Ibn Ezra:
“It is a known fact that every kingdom based on justice will stand. Justice is like a building. Injustice is like the cracks in that building, which cause it to fall without a moment’s warning.” [FN3]
In light of this, and remembering the Lord’s hatred for injustice, it is only natural that prophets like Amos, Micah and Ezekiel abhorred the practice of false scales and measures, and the words of Proverbs make perfect sense:
“False scales are an abomination to the Lord; an honest weight pleases Him” (11:1); “Honest scales and balances are the Lord’s; all the weights in the bag are His work” (16:11); “False weights and false measures, both are an abomination to the Lord” (20:10); and “False weights are an abomination to the Lord; dishonest scales are not right” (20:23).
Of course, these verses deal almost entirely with principles of economic and commercial fairness, and later rabbinic discussion deals almost exclusively with these areas. But Rabbi Chaim Ibn Attar, author of the standard Torah commentary Or HaChaim, makes an important observation on the key words in Deut: 25:16 —kol ‘oseh ’elleh kol ‘oseh ‘awel, “everyone who does those things, everyone who deals dishonestly.” He explains that the words “those things” refer to weights and measures, but that the more general words, “everyone who deals dishonestly” are there so that no one would think of restricting the injunction against dishonest practices to just these areas. Rather, the Torah is against all who deal dishonestly. In fact, even in the realm of economic dishonesty alone, Yaakov Ben Asher, the Ba‘al HaTurim, notes:

“He who violates the law of just weights is considered to be in rebellion against the entire body of mitzvot. One cannot pretend to serve God and, at the same time, deceive one’s fellow man.” [FN4]

Thus, according to both the Scriptures and the rabbinic writings, this is a weighty issue (no pun intended)!

But what has all this got to do with the anti-missionaries? Simply everything. Their whole practice of using one canon of criticism when treating the New Testament, while using an entirely different canon of criticism when treating the Tanakh and the Talmud, smacks of the practice of false weights and measures. It is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, and it can only bring disgrace to the anti-missionaries.

Let me explain. When attacking the New Testament -- that is exactly what the anti-missionaries do -- they often use a three-pronged approach: hyper-literality, alleged contradictions, and alleged misquotations.

In terms of hyper-literality, they will ask: “Do you literally believe what Jesus said? Then, if your right eye is causing you to sin, you should gouge it out and throw it away!” Or, “Didn’t Jesus say, ‘Give to him who asks you?’ Then give me your wallet, your shirt, and the keys to your car!”

Or, in abusing the concept of the incarnation (I doubt that many of our opponents actually try to understand the incarnation in any serious way) they will use coarse quips such as, “Does your God wear diapers?” [FN5]

The overall effect of their hyper-literality is to try and make our faith seem idiotic and absurd.

In terms of alleged contradictions, these can be divided into two categories: historical problems and apparent contradictions within the New Testament sources themselves. A favorite passage of the anti-missionaries is Stephen’s speech in Acts 7, a speech supposedly brimming with error. And, if we would object that, even if there were errors (I do not believe there are) it would be no problem, since inspiration only means that Luke accurately recorded what Stephen said, the hyper-literal anti-missionaries are quick to point out that Stephen was “filled with the Spirit” when he spoke. Thus, according to them, if he really had spoken in the Spirit, he could not have made an error! As for apparent contradictions within the sources, the Gospel accounts of Yeshua’s betrayal, crucifixion, and resurrection, or the accounts of Saul’s Damascus road experience in Acts are singled out as being hopelessly at odds with themselves. [FN6] The overall effect of these accusations is to try and make our Scriptures appear utterly untrustworthy.

In terms of alleged misquotations, we are generally pointed to verses like

Mat. 2:23, “He will be called a Nazarene”

supposedly an entirely fabricated verse; and

Heb. 10:5, “A body you have prepared for me”

supposedly a blatant alteration of the Hebrew of Psa. 40:6; or, verses allegedly wrenched from their original context, like

Hos. 11:1b, “I called My son out of Egypt,”

quoted in Mat. 2:15; and Isa. 7:14, the Immanuel prophecy, quoted in Mat. 1:23. [FN7] The overall effect of these accusations is especially serious. It tries to give the impression that the authors of the New Testament were not only idiotic and untrustworthy; according to the anti-missionaries, they were actually devious and deceitful. [FN8]

The plain truth is this: It is the anti-missionaries who are often being devious and deceitful. For if they would be honest with themselves, they would have to admit that, using the same canon of criticism on their own sacred texts, they would utterly shipwreck their own faith. In other words, if the New Testament would be disqualified by anti-missionary arguments in one hour, using those same arguments, the Tanakh would be disqualified in a matter of minutes and the Talmud in a matter of seconds! The anti-missionaries will readily accept the views of critical, nihilistic New Testament scholars, while following only rigidly conservative (generally, traditional Jewish) scholars of the Old Testament. [FN9]

Stop and think for a moment. What if the shoe were on the other foot? What if the anti-missionaries believed in the New Testament and we were left to defend the Tanakh and the rabbinic writings? What would the anti-missionaries do then? Just imagine what their unsympathetic and shallow hyper-literality would do with passages like Gen. 2:18-20, where the Lord apparently brought giraffes, monkeys, elephants, and armadillos to Adam, only to find that none of them would make a good wife for him; [FN10] or, Exod. 4:24-26, where the Lord sent Moses to Egypt to deliver His people, but tried to kill him on the way -- because he failed to circumcise his son. And I’m sure they would also have plenty of comments to make about God’s bow that appears in the sky after the showers (Gen. 9:12ff.), or about the “windows of heaven” that are opened to allow the rain that is above the expanse to fall to earth (Gen. 7:11).

What would the anti-missionaries do with the moving story of the ‘aqedah? Would they ridicule a God Who tests the obedience of His faithful servant by asking him to slaughter his own son? (Of course, they would also point out that according to the text, He is hardly omniscient -- see Gen. 22:12). Would they contrast the goodness of the Heavenly Father in the New Testament with the cruelty of Yahweh in the Old -- a Yahweh Whose incessant hardening of Pharaoh caused him to lead Egypt to disaster, even when Pharaoh was ready to let Israel go? Just picture how the anti-missionaries would glory in the mercy of the Son of God, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,” while denigrating the Lord’s command to exterminate totally the Canaanites -- men, women, children, and babies. And would they be sympathetic to the fact that the Torah legislated slavery (Exod. 21:1-11), or that when the Israelites went to war, the Torah permitted them to spare good looking virgins for possible future wives (Deut. 21:10-14)? And have the anti-missionaries forgotten that, historically speaking, the great problem has been that the God of the Old Testament seems to be a less compassionate, gracious, and universal God than the God of the New Testament? This has always been an issue for New Testament theologians, as well as for destructive Gnostic critics like Marcion, or less radically, like Adolph Harnack. One need only think of the vicious work of Friederich Delitzsch -- son of the brilliant Franz Delitzsch, a true friend of Israel -- attacking the Old Testament as dangerous, and recommending that it be dropped from seminary curriculum. [FN11] Remember, it is Psalm 137 -- not the New Testament -- that pronounces a blessing on those who smash Babylon’s babes on the rocks. [FN12] What if the anti-missionaries were attacking this?!

As for the God of the Talmud and Midrash, He could not possibly fare much better. What would the anti-missionaries say of a God who asked for prayer for Himself? Yet, in a famous Talmudic account, the Lord asks the high priest to pray for Him! [FN13] Doubtless, the anti-missionaries would also have great fun with a God Who wore tallis and tefillin, studied Torah, and weaved ornamental crowns for its letters, [FN14] or a God whose decrees could be nullified by a tsaddik. [FN15] As for the sensational tales and exploits of the sages, if taken at face value they would make the stories in the National Enquirer look sober and reliable. [FN16] And there is no doubt that Talmudic dialectology would receive the derision of the mocking anti-missionaries. To give just one example, consider the Talmudic phenomenon called teyku (Aramaic for, “It remains standing”), used in cases where there is no possible way to arrive at a definitive answer to the halakhic problem presented. [FN17] A classic case of teyku occurs with reference to the search for leaven on Passover. [FN18] The problem, as summarized by Prof. Louis Jacobs, is presented by Rava, a fourth century Babylonian Amora:

“Supposing, asks Rava, a mouse is seen entering a house that has been searched and found to be clean of leaven. The mouse has a morsel of bread in its mouth, and is later seen coming out of the house with a morsel of bread in its mouth. Are we to conclude that it is the same mouse and the same morsel (i.e., and, consequently, the house does not require to be searched again) or are we to be apprehensive that it might be a different mouse and morsel (so that the house must be searched again)? Supposing, continues Rava, we say that it is the same mouse, then what would be the law where a white mouse having leaven in its mouth is seen entering the house and then a black mouse with leaven in its mouth is seen coming out of the house? Here, since it is a different mouse, it must be assumed that it is a different piece of leaven, or, possibly, it can be argued, it is the same piece of leaven which the black mouse has taken from the white mouse (and the house requires no further search). If we argue that mice do not snatch food from one another, what is the law if a mouse is seen to enter the house with leaven in its mouth and then a weasel comes out of the house with leaven in its mouth? Weasels certainly take food from mice and it can therefore be assumed that it is the same piece of leaven, or it may be assumed to be a different piece of leaven, otherwise it would have been the mouse, not the leaven, that was in the weasel’s mouth. And, further, what is the law where the weasel comes out with both the mouse and the leaven in its mouth? The Talmud concludes, as it invariably does when faced with an insoluble problem of this type, teyku . . .” [FN19]

Would the anti-missionaries find this to be sublime, inspired, and edifying? I can almost hear them contrasting such Talmudic dialectics with the awesome power and simplicity of 1 Corinthians 13 or the spiritual heights of Romans 8. Let’s be honest: If the anti-missionaries disparage the Sermon on the Mount, what would they do with the Talmud’s 39 sub-divisions of prohibited Shabbat labor? How they would they take refuge in Yeshua’s authoritative word from heaven, standing as it does in such stark contrast to the opinions and traditions of men!

Continuing for another moment on the subject of hyper-literality, what would the anti-missionaries do with the lex talionis -- the eye for eye, tooth for tooth law of retribution -- especially in light of the Torah’s emphasis “to show no pity”? [FN20] They certainly would not accept the claim of the oral tradition that these statutes always and only referred to monetary compensation! Or consider the law in Deut. 25:11-12, ordering the Israelites to cut off the hand of a woman who grabbed the genitals of a man fighting with her husband. Think how they would ridicule no less a luminary than the Rambam -- Moses Maimonides -- since he taught that even if a proven prophet urged literal obedience to this Torah law [FN21] (as opposed to following the sages’ interpretation of monetary compensation here also), then that prophet should be strangled as a false prophet! [FN22] Thus, a proven prophet following the plain sense of the Scripture carries less weight than the oral tradition. I can almost see the young ba‘al teshuvah dropping his head in despair as the anti-missionary gently points out to him that following the rabbis is cult-like. Yes, the anti-missionary would doubtless recommend serious deprogramming, especially for those poor souls who had spent years learning in a Yeshivah!

More seriously, have the anti-missionaries chosen to ignore the fact that to this day, it is the Talmud that is ridiculed and scorned for allegedly sanctioning such horrible sins as murder, pederasty, and bestiality? There is no religious text on earth more liable to misinterpretation and abuse than the Talmud -- consider the notorious writings of Johann A. Eisenmenger, August Rohling, and more recently, Theodore Winston Pike and even James McKeever and Gary North [FN23] -- yet, the anti-missionaries are willing to attack the New Testament writings in the basest ways, freely utilizing the findings of the most radical, negative New Testament critics. [FN24] Of course, the anti-missionaries know full well that as Messianic Jews we will not retaliate in kind: First, because we are Jews, we will give no fuel to the anti-Semitic fire of those who viciously attack the Talmud; second, we all have some degree of appreciation for at least some parts of the Talmud, even though we differ with its presuppositions; and third, since most of us know very little about the Talmud, we could not criticize it even if we wanted to! And who among us would ever dream of attacking the Tanakh -- our own sacred Scriptures? Yet it is easy for the anti-missionaries to take pot-shots at the New Testament because of its limited size as well as its wide accessibility. Once again, the anti-missionaries are guilty of unethical practices -- hitting below the belt because they know we won’t “counter punch.”

Moving on to the subject of historical problems, [FN25] consider how the anti-missionaries would contrast Luke’s excellent reputation as a historian [FN26] -- remember, for the sake of this paper, the shoe is still on the other foot! -- with the apparent historical problems in the Torah. First and foremost would be the literal six-day creation with a six thousand year-old earth. How unscientific! Then there would be the problem of the apparently anachronistic appearance of the Philistines in the patriarchal narratives, or the lack of any clear Egyptian historical evidence for the exodus. [FN27] And what would they do with the Talmudic chronology, a chronology that makes Zerubbabel, Malachi, Ezra, and Simeon the Just into contemporaries, reduces the Persian period (from the rebuilding of the Temple under Zerubbabel in 516 B.C.E. to Alexander’s conquest) to 34 years, incorrectly tallies the duration of the First and Second Temples, [FN28] and (apparently) places Yeshua with sages who lived in both the second century B.C.E. as well as the second century C.E.? [FN29]

As for alleged contradictions, the anti-missionaries would go wild here, especially in the Five Books of Moses. After highlighting the apparent discrepancies in the creation accounts of Genesis 1 and 2, and pointing out that the Torah sometimes provides different etiologies for the same event --e.g., the naming of Beersheva [FN30] -- they could simply move to the Ten Commandments. After all, these are the very words of God, and Moses is the key mediatorial figure in the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet there are several key contradictions between the commandments as given at Mount Sinai (according to Exod. 20:1-17) and the repetition of the commandments as given by Moses (according to Deut. 5:6-21). Most noteworthy are the numerous differences in the wording of the Sabbath commandment, beginning with the first word: Did God say remember (zakhor) the Sabbath, or did He say keep (shamor) the Sabbath? Just think of how the anti-missionaries would howl when we sheepishly stated, shamor wezakhor bedibbur ’ekhad hishmi‘anu ’el hameyukhad: “At Mount Sinai, the One God simultaneously caused us to hear the words keep and remember.” [FN31] I don’t imagine the anti-missionaries would be any happier with our answers to the other differences occurring in the two Sabbath commandments, or with our explanations for the variations in the two versions of the command not to covet. [FN32] And undoubtedly, they would question Moses’ trustworthiness as a transmitter of divine information: If he changed the wording of the very statements that all the people of Israel heard for themselves, how could he possibly be trusted with a totally secret, oral tradition, heard by no Israelites? The anti-missionaries would also be quick to point out that in Exod. 34:10-26, a completely different decalogue seems to be given, even stating in v. 28 that it was apparently Moses -- not the Lord -- who inscribed the words in the stone tablets. And speaking of Moses, the anti-missionaries would probably pick on his father-in-law too: Was his name Jethro, Reuel, or Hobab son of Reuel? [FN33] Before departing from the Torah, they would throw some parting shots: Jacob, the elders of Israel, and Moses are credited with seeing God (Moses spoke with Him face to face), [FN34] yet we are told elsewhere (Exod. 33:20) that no one can see Him and live. A straightforward reading of Exod. 6:3 states that God’s covenant name, Yahweh, was unknown to the patriarchs. [FN35] What would the anti-missionaries do with this?

Having completed their demolition job on the Torah -- there are dozens of apparent discrepancies they would gleefully cite -- they could move to the Talmudic harmonization of these discrepancies, harmonizations that more often than not violate the peshat. [FN36] After making us dizzy with Talmudic “explanations,” taking time to point out instances where the interpretation of the sages is said to “uproot Scripture,” [FN37] they could say: “Remember, we haven’t even touched on the parallel accounts in the books of Samuel, Kings and Chronicles. You’re really in trouble there!” [FN38]

As for internal contradictions within the Talmud itself, the classic story of the martyrdom of Rabbi Akiva appears in various accounts no less difficult to harmonize than the Gospel accounts of Yeshua’s betrayal. [FN39] Nor would the zealous anti-missionaries fail to emphasize that, in a sense, Talmudic methodology is actually built on endless, often forced, “reconciliations” of conflicting opinions and interpretations (there is always the ever present makhloket/makhloikes), including differences in interpretations of both Scripture and Mishnah, along with conflicts between Tanna and Tanna, Tanna and Amora, and Amora and Amora. [FN40] I doubt the anti-missionaries would even let us try to explain that, “The two mutually contradictory positions are both the words of the living God!” [FN41]

Last but not least, the anti-missionaries would set upon the subject of misquotation and/or misinterpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures within the rabbinic literature, and even within the Tanakh itself. The anti-missionaries would confront us with the fact that Deut. 24:16, a rare Torah verse quoted in its entirety in the historical books, appears in 2 Kin. 14:6 as well as in 2 Chr. 25:4, yet both times the wording is different! There is even a variation of the verbal forms in 2 Chr. 25:4 yamutu, “they will die,” vs. the original yumatu, “they will be put to death.” Wasn’t every word of the Torah dictated to Moses? Yet the other biblical writers couldn’t even copy one verse accurately! Ezra also makes reference in prayer to the “commandments which You gave us through Your servants the prophets when You said . . .” (Ezra 9:10-12), but the words quoted are not found in that exact form elsewhere in the Scriptures.[FN42]

As for Talmudic usage of Scripture, the anti-missionaries would have a field day. They would ridicule the interpretation of Exod. 34:27, where “Write down these commandments, for in accordance with these commandments I make a covenant with you and with Israel” is quoted to demonstrate the supremacy of the oral (!) Torah. [FN43] They would certainly question the moral integrity of the sages who interpreted the end of Exod. 23:2 to say, “Follow the majority,” whereas the verse is universally understood by both Jewish and Christian exegetes and translators to mean, “Don’t follow the majority”! [FN44] Then, after some digging, the anti-missionaries would come up with some surprising -- and potentially damaging -- information: In addition to apparent misinterpretations, the actual Talmudic citations of the Hebrew Scriptures sometimes vary from the Masoretic tradition, [FN45] and there is at least one instance in which part of a verse not found in any Masoretic biblical manuscript is quoted by the fourth century sage Rav Nahman Bar Isaac -- to the consternation of the later Talmudic commentators. [FN46]

Of course, we have only scratched the surface of what the anti-missionaries might say and do should the shoes be on the other feet. But our contention concerning the anti-missionaries practice of using unequal weights and measures is clear. Yet there are some very positive and constructive points that can be made as a result of this discussion, and it is with these points that we conclude.

First, there are answers! -- but only for the sympathetic and open. The very same methodology that can provide answers for the Old Testament and rabbinic problems referred to in the bulk of this paper can provide answers for the New Testament problems raised by the anti-missionaries. For example, the question of the apparent misquotation of the Tanakh in the Talmud points to valid textual traditions outside of the Masoretic textual traditions. [FN47] Only when the ancient texts and versions are carefully sifted can we arrive at an understanding of precisely why a given New Testament author chose to quote (or, adapt) an Old Testament verse in a particular form. [FN48] Note also that, compared with the biblical interpretation at Qumran and rabbinic literature, the New Testament’s usages of the Old Testament are remarkably sober and well thought out. [FN49]

Second, seemingly strange interpretations should be seen in the light of larger contextual themes, sometimes even reflecting Targumic or possibly, on occasion, Midrashic liberties. [FN50] Also, just as the Torah is greatly exalted in rabbinic literature -- and hence the sages find allusions to the Torah throughout the Tanakh -- the New Testament writers saw Yeshua as absolutely central, reading the Tanakh in light of Him. [FN51]

Third, we can gain insight into how best to deal with the Talmud (or even the Koran, albeit to a much lesser degree). We must be fair to the text, seeking to understand it through the eyes of its transmitters and/or interpreters. We must seek to be scientific and honest; then, we can freely contrast its differences, critique its misinterpretations, and even cut down its errors -- in fairness and with a spirit of love. [FN52]

Finally, we must adopt a totally non-defensive posture when dealing with the anti-missionaries. The truth is with us, and unethical practices are doomed to fail. As Yeshua said,

“Every plant that My heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots” (Mat. 15:13).[FN53]

Indeed,

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away” (Mat. 24:35).

Let us boldly proclaim those eternally valid words!

300

[FN1] See Lev. 19:35f; Deut.25:13-16; Ezek. 45:9-12; Hos. 12:7; Amos 8:5; Mic. 6:10f.; Prov. 11:1, 16:11, 20:10, 20:23; b. Bava Batra 88b, 89a; b. Bava Mesia 49b, 61b; Sifre Ki Tetze; j. Bava Batra, Chap. 5, Halakha 11; Yad, Hilkhot Genevah 7:8; Sefer HaMitzvot (Aseh) 208, (Lo Ta’aseh) 271, 272; Sefer Mitzvot Gadol (Aseh) 72, (Lav) 151, 152; Sefer Mitzvot Katan 264; Tur and Shulhan Arukh, Hoshen Mishpat 231; Sefer HaHinnukh, Mitzvot 258, 259, 602. Cf. also Abraham Chill, The Mitzvot: The Commandments and Their Rationale (Jerusalem: Keter Books, 1974), 250-252; Samson Raphael Hirsch, Horeb: A Philosophy of Jewish Laws and Observances (Eng. trans., Dayan Dr. I. Grunfeld; London: Soncino, 1981), 240-242; “Eyphah and Eyphah,” in Rabbi Meyer Berlin, et al., eds., Talmudic Encyclopedia (Eng. trans., Jerusalem: Talmudic Encyclopedia Institute, 1982), 2:168ff.

[FN2] See especially Abravanel (cited by Chill, Mitzvot, 252).

[FN3] See Dr. J. H. Hertz, Pentateuch and Haftorahs (London: Soncino, 1975), 856.

[FN4]See Chill, Miztvot, 251f.

[FN5] Cf., e.g., Samuel Levine, You Take Jesus, I’ll Take God: How to Refute Christian Missionaries (2nd. ed., Los Angeles: Hamoroh Press, 1980), 93, Question B16: “Is it true that your god wore diapers?”

[FN6] For a classic statement of these objections, see Isaac Troki, Faith Strengthened (Hizzuk Emunah): The Jewish Answer to Christianity (repr., Brooklyn: Sepher Hermon, 1970), esp. 227-280.

[FN7] Cf., e.g., Michoel Drazin, Their Hollow Inheritance: A Comprehensive Refutation of the New Testament and Its Missionaries (Jerusalem: Gefen, 1990), 41.

[FN8] Drazin, Hollow Inheritance, 15-24, accuses the New Testament and Christianity as a whole of “Pious Fraud.”

[FN9] Gerald Sigal, The Jew and the Christian Missionary: A Jewish Response to Missionary Christianity (New York: Ktav, 1981), xviii, states in his Preface that he did “not utilize the works of those Christian scholars who, using the scientific approach to the New Testament, have, for more than a century, dismissed as unhistorical many of the traditional episodes in Jesus’ life.” Needless to say, Sigal does not mention the fact that like minded “scientific” scholars -- both Jewish and Christian -- have come to the same negative conclusions regarding the unhistorical nature of many of the traditional episodes recounted in the Hebrew Scriptures! Sigal’s methodology, which seeks to dismantle the literal truthfulness of the New Testament, would have disastrous effects if used against his own sacred Scriptures.

[FN10] And what would the anti-missionaries do with the rabbinic comment that indicates that Adam had sexual relations with the animals before determining that none of them was suitable? See b. Yebamot 63a, and cf. below, n. 23, for references to attacks against the Talmud which rabbinic remarks like this have sparked.

[FN11] See John Bright, The Authority of the Old Testament (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1975), esp. 58-109.

[FN12] I actually heard a pro-abortion activist (and self-proclaimed biblical scholar) on a call-in radio show use this verse to argue that those who claimed to be true Bible believers had no right to oppose abortion, since, after all, the Scriptures sanction child killing!

[FN13] b. Berakhot 7a.

[FN14] See conveniently A. Cohen, Everyman’s Talmud (New York: Schocken, 1975), 7 (with reference to b. Berakhot 61; b. Rosh Hashanah 17b; and b. Avodah Zarah 3b); and C. G. Montefiore and H. Loewe, A Rabbinic Theology (New York: Schocken, 1974), 24 (with reference to b. Shabbat 89a).

[FN15] For references, see Robert Gordis, The Book of Job: Commentary, New Translation, and Special Studies (New York City: The Jewish Theological Seminary of America, 1978), 251.

[FN16] Cf. Z. H. Chajes, The Student’s Guide through the Talmud, trans. and ed. by Jacob Shachter (New York: Philipp Feldheim, 1960), 195-200, “Aggadoth Aimed at Inspiring and Stirring the Curiosity of the People.” The issue, of course, is not whether these fabulous accounts actually occurred; rather, it is an issue of methodology: How would the anti-missionaries use (or, abuse) such narratives?

[FN17] For complete discussion, see Louis Jacobs, TEYKU: The Unsolved Problem in the Babylonian Talmud (London: 1981).

[FN18] b. Pesachim 10b.

[FN19] See Louis Jacobs, A Tree of Life: Diversity, Flexibilty and Creativity in Jewish Law (Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press, 1984), 28f.

[FN20] Deut. 19:21; cf. also 7:2, 16, 13:8, 19:13, 25:12.

[FN21] As cited in the previous note, the Torah (Deut. 25:12) here enjoins that no pity be shown in the treatment of the woman.

[FN22] Cf. Zvi Lampel, trans., Maimonides’ Introduction to the Talmud: A Translation of the Rambam’s Introduction to His Commentary on the Mishna (New York: Judaica Press, 1987), 50: “Altering the Oral Law in any way is . . . a manifestation of false prophecy, even if the prophet is ostensibly supported by a literal interpretation of a verse, as opposed to its actual meaning.” With regard to Deut. 25:12, Maimonides states (ibid.): “If a prophet would claim that this verse is referring to a literal amputation of the hand . . . and if he supports such an assertion by the phenomenon of prophecy, saying, ‘The-Holy-One-Blessed-be-He has told me that this commandment, “. . . and chop her palm,” is to be understood literally’ -- he . . . is to be executed by strangulation . . . .”

[FN23] For the references, see Michael L. Brown, Our Hands Are Stained With Blood: The Tragic Story of the “Church” and the Jewish People (Shippensburg, PA: Destiny Image, 1992), 68f., 199f., 236.

[FN24] Cf. above, n. 9.

[FN25] For those with questions regarding the factual trustworthiness of the Gospels, Craig L. Blomberg’s The Historical Reliability of the Gospels (Downers Grove, IL: Inter-Varsity Press, 1987) is recommended.

[FN26] Cf. the conclusions of W. Ward Gasque, A History of the Interpretation of the Acts of the Apostles (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1989).

[FN27] The classic work on Israelite history by the German scholar Martin Noth, The History of Israel (Eng. trans., New York: Harper & Row, 1960), begins with the period of the Judges (as if nothing that can be considered verifiable history took place before then!); the more conservative work of the French scholar, Roland De Vaux, The Early History of Israel (Eng. trans., Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1978), is still extremely skeptical of the ancient biblical accounts.

[FN28] Cf. Judah M. Rosenthal, “Seder Olam,” Encyclopedia Judaica (Jerusalem: Keter, 1972), 14:1091f.

[FN29] The sages in question are Yehoshuah Ben Perachiah (2nd cent. B.C.E.) and Rabbi Akiva (2nd cent. C.E.). For a concise polemical treatment, cf. Ben Netzach (pseudonym), “The Historical Jesus According to the Talmud: FACT or FABLE?” (Orangeburg, NJ: Chosen People Ministries, n.d.). Of course, modern scholars who do not affirm the infallibility of the Talmud put little or no stock in the historicity of the Talmud’s apparent references to Jesus; cf. John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus. Volume One: The Roots of the Problem and the Person (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1991), 93ff., and note esp. 95: “scholars of rabbinic literature do not agree among themselves on whether even a single text from the Mishna, Tosefta, or Talmud really refers to Jesus of Nazareth.”

[FN30] Cf. Gen. 21:22-31 and 26:19-33.

[FN31] As rendered poetically in Lecho Dodi, “‘Keep and Remember!’ -- in One divine Word, He that is One, made His will heard” (see Dr. Joseph H. Hertz, The Authorised Daily Prayer Book [New York: Bloch Publishing Company, 1975], 356f.)

[FN32] See conveniently Abba Ben David, Parallels in the Bible (Heb., Jerusalem: Carta, 1972), 170f.

[FN33] Cf. Exod. 2:18, 3:1; Numbers 10:29.

[FN34] Cf. Gen. 32:30; Exod. 24:9-11, 33:11; Num. 12:8.

[FN35] Cf. the standard rabbinic commentaries for traditional discussion of this apparent contradiction.

[FN36] Cf. Chajes, Student’s Guide, 6f.

[FN37] Cf. Eliezer Berkovitz, Not In Heaven: The Nature and Function of Halakha (New York: Ktav, 1983), 57-64.

[FN38] Abba Ben David’s Parallels in the Bible, 14-164, makes this abundantly clear. See also James Barr, Fundamentalism (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1978), 309f., where reference is made to the utilization of these apparent discrepancies in the polemical writings of Henry Preserved Smith. Also note the better than two-to-one proportion of Old Testament difficulties as compared with New Testament difficulties in Gleason L. Archer’s Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1982; the Old Testament section spans 45-306, and the New Testament section 307-434). While the Old Testament itself is three times as long as the New Testament, Archer’s treatment of New Testament difficulties is often more complete than his treatment of Old Testament difficulties; also, some of the alleged New Testament discrepancies involve problems with Old Testament texts and versions. Thus, an equal number of problem passages are to be found in both Testaments.

[FN39] Montefiore and Loewe, Rabbinic Anthology, 269f., suggest that j. Berakhot 9:5 (14b, line 59) contains, “The shortest, and perhaps oldest, version of R. Akiba’s martyrdom.” Cf. also Gershom Bader, The Encyclopedia of Talmudic Sages (Eng. trans., Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1988), 277ff. The most important accounts are found in b. Berakhot 61b and j. Sotah 4:5 (the reference to j. Berakhot 9:5 in Montefiore and Loewe is incorrectly given as 9:7).

[FN40] For representative studies on Talmudic methodology, see Rabbenu Moshe Chaim Luzzato, The Ways of Reason (Eng. trans., Jerusalsem: Diaspora Yeshiva/Feldheim Publishers, 1989); Louis Jacobs, The Talmudic Argument: A study in Talmudic reasoning and methodology (New York: Cambridge, 1984).

[FN41] For discussion of this classic Talmudic formulation, see Berkovitz, Not in Heaven, 50-53.

[FN42] For the underlying sources of the Ezra quote, see H. G. M. Williamson, Ezra-Nehemiah (WBC;Waco, TX: Word, 1985), 137.

[FN43] For the references see Chajes, Student’s Guide, 4, n. 1, where this is quoted with approval.

[FN44] Or, “Don’t follow the mighty . . .” The classic Talmudic discussion is found in Bava Mesia’ 59b; cf. also Targ. Onkelos and Rashi ad loc.

[FN45] Rabbi Akiva Eiger provided a list of these variants in his Gilyon HaShas to the Tosafot on b. Shabbat 55b; cf. also David Weiss Halivni, Peshat and Derash: Plain and Applied Meaning in Rabbinic Exegesis (New York: Oxford Univ. Press, 1991), 208f., n. 30.

[FN46] b. Berakhot 61a; see Harry M. Orlinsky, Prolegomenon to Christian D. Ginsburg, Introduction to the Masoretico-Critical Edition of the Hebrew Bible (New York, Ktav, 1966), XXII; Orlinsky’s entire Prolegomenon, “The Masoretic Text: A Critical Evaluation,” I-XLV, is relevant.

[FN47] See the work of Orlinksy, cited immediately above, n. 46.

[FN48] Robert Horton Gundry, The Use of the Old Testament in St. Matthew’s Gospel: With Special Reference to the Messianic Hope (Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1975).

[FN49] Gundry, Ibid., 205-234, and note esp. 205: “Both Qumran hermeneutics and rabbinical hermeneutics are supremely oblivious to contextual exegesis.” With regard to New Testament hermeneutics, most specifically Matthean hermeneutics, Gundry demonstrates that the reverse is true. Anti-missionaries able to handle Greek and Hebrew could learn much from Gundry’s study. Cf. also Richard N. Longenecker, Biblical Exegesis in the Apostolic Period (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975).

[FN50] In addition to the works cited in the previous two notes, cf., e.g., J. T. Forestell, C.S.B., Targumic Traditions and the New Testament. An Annotated Bibliography with a New Testament Index (Chico, CA: Scholars Press, 1979); R. T. France and David Wenham, eds., Gospel Perspectives, Vol. III: Studies in Midrash and Historiography (Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1983); Rainer Riesner, Jesu als Lehrer: Eine Untersuchung zum Ursprung der Evangelien-Uberlieferung, (WUNT, 2nd Series, 7; Tubingen: J. C. B. Mohr, 1988)

[FN51] For example, when Moses cried out to the Lord regarding the undrinkable condition of the waters of Marah, the Lord showed him (yorehu) a tree which he then threw into the waters, making them drinkable (Exod. 15:23ff.) The rabbis saw in the verb yoreh a reference to the healing powers of the Torah; the early Christian expositors saw in the tree a reference to the healing powers of the cross. For New Testament statements regarding the prophetic anticipation of Jesus in the Hebrew Scriptures, cf., e.g., Luke 24:25-27; Acts 3:18, 24; for the development of the Old Testament hope in the New Testament, cf. F. F. Bruce, The New Testament Development of Old Testament Themes (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1970).

[FN52] I have sought to use this approach in my audio tape, “Are the Rabbis Right?” And remember also the wisdom of Prov. 15:1!

[FN53] Both the context of this verse (Mat. 15:1ff.), as well as its closing words (“Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”) should be noted.

300

Dr. Brown is well-known in the field of Jewish apologetics. He is the author of the "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus" series which can be purchased here (http://www.icnministries.org/Materials/Books/books.htm) at the ICN Ministries website (www.icnministries.org).

Please also read Dr. Brown's testimony, From LSD to PhD (http://www.icnministries.org/Testimony/testimony.htm) and his other articles of interest:

The Jesus Manifesto (http://www.icnministries.org/Articles/Manifesto/manifesto.htm) and

Was the New Testament Written in Hebrew? (http://www.icnministries.org/Articles/Review_of_Difficult_Words/review_of_difficult_words.htm)

TheologyWeb would like to thank Dr. Brown for allowing us to showcase his work. Dee Dee would like to personally thank him for his tireless efforts in refuting anti-missionaries and for the invaluable assistance his work has been to her.

300
Notice - The featuring of a particular ministry does not constitute endorsement of every single item or point of view published by said ministry by each and every member of TheologyWeb leadership. We strive to have a varied cross-section of representations of differing opinions on secondary Christian issues. The only requirement for the featuring of a particular ministry is that said ministry subscribes to the essentials artictulated in the TheologyWeb statement of faith found here in our Mission Statement (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/mission/)

Bib Lit Major
June 12th 2003, 02:15 AM
I have always been a huge fan of Dr. Michael Brown. His Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, (3 vols., with a fourth planned) saved my faith when I almost gave up from claims made by an anti-missionary about 3 years ago and helped launch me into theology as my area of study. Obviously, I owe a great deal to Dr. Brown!

Thanks yxboom for posting this!

Kevin

dizzle
June 12th 2003, 04:34 AM
I have been so caught up with this site that I didn't even realize that Volume three was out already!! I have shared these books with Jewish friends who were very appreciative. In particular my husband and I have been witnessing to an open Jewish couple who have daughters that have accepted Christ which baffled them. Their daughters have been attempting "Left Behind" evangelism, which frankly, turned the parents off. After reading Dr. Brown's work and speaking with us, they have not yet accepted Christ but said that they understand where their daughters are coming from now much more, and who knows where this will lead?

jpholding
June 13th 2003, 11:36 AM
Good heavens, yes. That's all I can say about antis like Gerald Sigal who hop into bed with atheists and use their objections against the NT while pretending that these guys also don't slap on the OT the same way. Brown has hit a spot that I have been hitting for years.

dizzle
June 13th 2003, 02:43 PM
He did a fantastic job.

AVmetro
June 13th 2003, 09:31 PM
The first email I sent to JP was regarding the "Jews for Judaism" website. I don't remember his exact response but it was something like "Don't these guys realize they're shooting themselves in the foot?"

This is an area of apologetics I'd like to gain more experience in and in fact I plan to purchase a few of his books once I catch up on my current reading list.

I can relate with what another posted in the above with a period of severe doubt that raged in my mind over the true identity of Christ as being the [True] Messiah. In fact, I believe the doubt slipped in as a result of JfJ (needless to say I didn't have the thick skin then as I do now :smile:) and some OCD. If I ever needed to be convinced of a devil and the lies he can put in one's head, I would only need to look to that point in time. Talk about a full fledged debate in my own mind! I had numerous objections to Christianity simply pop in. Refute one only to have an instant "rebuttal" or replacement in turn. Things I couldn't just "think of on the fly".

The great thing is, it ended when I began to simply read my bible. I had only completed the four gospels at that time. The book of Romans, especially, essentially annihilated the problem. Now that I look back on some of the objections I once was terrified of, I can only laugh. In fact, a few of them are now my favorite Trinity proof texts! :lol:

There could never be a better Messiah than Jesus Christ. :love:

dizzle
June 14th 2003, 01:42 AM
Yes, I agree that Dr. Brown nailed this one on its head. The inconsistency in standards in amazing. Unfortunately though some Christians do the same thing... and I take them to task as well. For instance, JP is fond of saying to some of the more inane objections that we are so smugly modern that we act like ancient were so stupid that they walked into walls face first, and that point sticks with me. I have heard an objection to the Book of Mormon (and remember I am NOT Mormon - but I believe in fairly representing opposing views) that the BoM teaches that a decapitated body spoke and that proves it is in error because obviously a decapitated body cannot speak... Mormon apologists have several explanations including one that say the head was not completely off etc.. but to me it boils down to this. If this is a true error in a book solely made up by Smith (which I believe it is) then I have to believe that Smith could not figure out that decapitated bodies do not speak. That is simply not fair to Smith or to the Book of Mormon.

Piebald
June 14th 2003, 01:46 AM
Do Jews take the Old Testament "literally"? Because I point this out to what I gather are rather conservative Jews (in a chatroom I frequent) and they say "Well, we don't take it literally".. The Old Testament and all that. What should I do given that response?

dizzle
June 14th 2003, 02:04 AM
Well if they are then hyperliteralizing to prove NT errors, then they are showing the unequal weights they are using, and just as Dr. Brown stated I would point that out. They cannot use one standard for the OT and a different one for the NT.

Bib Lit Major
June 14th 2003, 03:28 AM
Also, Conservative Jews, despite the name, are not conservative. Maybe you already know this, Hamster, but there are three main "streams," if you will, in Judaism. The Orthodox (some are called ultra-Orthodox) Jews tend to be the most conservative, observing the 613 mitzvot (laws), and would probably take the OT more literally. The Reform Jews sprang up in the Enlightenment and wished to completely reform Judaism but ridding it of all ritual and many of the core beliefs. Conservative Jews sprang up as a reaction the Reform group. They are like the moderates. They rid themselves of some rituals, like the kashrut (dietary laws), while keeping some, like observing holy days.

Sorry for the history lesson and it may be a little off-topic, but I wanted to share that with you so that you could see that many Jews do seem to take the Torah and the rest of the Tanach rather literally. I might be mistaken, but I think most anti-missionaries, who Dr. Brown is dealing with, are of the (ultra-)Orthodox group.

I might be off on some particulars but that is the best I remember from some of my religious studies classes from my sophomore year.

Don't know if that helps. :huh:

Perhaps, you were referring to a group of Orthodox Jews in your chat room, but I know there is a group that call themselves "Conservative Jews." Before he was saved, Brown was part of that group and I have met several others from that group.

Kevin

dizzle
June 14th 2003, 11:05 AM
I was not aware that there was a fourth Answering Jewish Objections volume planned. This site has kept me so busy that I didn't even realize until recently that Volume 3 was out, and my Amazon alerts that I set up for this did not alert me. I will be buying it hopefully this weekend. I had heard that when the books were done, there may be a special edition that would contain them all in one book. I do hope that is still planned, what a great gift to give to an open Jewish friend.

AVmetro
June 14th 2003, 11:42 AM
There's also the 'Messianic Bible' project (http://www.messianicbible.com/). :brow:

Bib Lit Major
June 14th 2003, 04:33 PM
Today @ 10:05 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122810#post122810)
Dee Dee Warren:

I was not aware that there was a fourth Answering Jewish Objections volume planned. This site has kept me so busy that I didn't even realize until recently that Volume 3 was out, and my Amazon alerts that I set up for this did not alert me. I will be buying it hopefully this weekend. I had heard that when the books were done, there may be a special edition that would contain them all in one book. I do hope that is still planned, what a great gift to give to an open Jewish friend.

Well Dee Dee, since Brown wanted to be thorough in his handling of the messianic prophecies section, he just focussed on that in vol. 3, instead of dealing with that, plus objections to the NT, and from traditional Judaism, which will be released in vol. 4. He is still planning on doing the now 4-in-1 volume if there is enough interest.

Wildcat
June 16th 2003, 05:11 PM
Dee Dee,

Did you by chance visit Tekton and see the review I did of Brown's 3rd book?

Wildcat.

P.S. I agree. His work is fantastic. The third volume did not disappoint, and a 4th one is coming. :wink:

dizzle
June 16th 2003, 07:08 PM
No Wildcat I had not, I will have to do that. You beat me to the punch eh?

Wildcat
June 16th 2003, 08:29 PM
Dee Dee: No Wildcat I had not, I will have to do that. You beat me to the punch eh?

Wildcat: Ha ha, yeah I suppose so. I hope you don't mind. I was talking to someone at the "Messianic Bible" site a while ago and asked her if the third volume had been written yet and she said yes so I went to Amazon and grabbed it. I really like some of the stories he tells of his debates and debate offers in Volume 1. Although it probably wasn't his intent, some of the stories are quite comical. :smile:

Here's the URL to that review: http://www.tektonics.org/ansj3.html

Dr. Brown
June 17th 2003, 12:41 AM
06-12-2003 @ 07:15 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=121041#post121041)
Bib Lit Major:

I have always been a huge fan of Dr. Michael Brown. His Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, (3 vols., with a fourth planned) saved my faith when I almost gave up from claims made by an anti-missionary about 3 years ago and helped launch me into theology as my area of study. Obviously, I owe a great deal to Dr. Brown!

Thanks yxboom for posting this!

Kevin

Kevin,

Thanks for the encouraging words. May your life combine passionate devotion to God, a burning heart for a lost and dying world -- including our people Israel! -- and a solid grounding in the Word of truth.

Blessings and grace,

Michael L. Brown

Dr. Brown
June 17th 2003, 12:44 AM
06-14-2003 @ 06:46 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122693#post122693)
Hamster:

Do Jews take the Old Testament "literally"? Because I point this out to what I gather are rather conservative Jews (in a chatroom I frequent) and they say "Well, we don't take it literally".. The Old Testament and all that. What should I do given that response?

Hamster,

I deal with this question at some length on my audio tape, Are the Rabbis Right? It can be ordered through our ministry, but I'm going to try to make it available on our website for free download too.

Blessings on you,

Dr. Brown

Dr. Brown
June 17th 2003, 12:49 AM
06-14-2003 @ 04:05 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122810#post122810)
Dee Dee Warren:

I was not aware that there was a fourth Answering Jewish Objections volume planned. This site has kept me so busy that I didn't even realize until recently that Volume 3 was out, and my Amazon alerts that I set up for this did not alert me. I will be buying it hopefully this weekend. I had heard that when the books were done, there may be a special edition that would contain them all in one book. I do hope that is still planned, what a great gift to give to an open Jewish friend.

Dee Dee,

Based on reader interest to date, the eventual plan will be: 1) Once the fourth volume is completed and adequately distributed, we will put out a one-volume reference edition (hard cover) with some additional notes and material); 2) We will then work on a condensed, popularized one-volume paperback (without endnotes, etc.), to be used especially for outreach.

Right now, my first priority is devoting quality time to a commentary on Jeremiah that is to be completed within the next two years, but I'm trying to work on vol. 4 as well. Keep this in prayer when you think of it, OK? This, of course, is in addition to my teaching and preaching schedule, but getting these volumes completed in a quality way is of real importance.

Blessings and grace,

Michael L. Brown

Dr. Brown
June 17th 2003, 12:57 AM
I've seen a few references to this project in the thread here. If you haven't seen the video on the www.messianicbible.com site, I'd encourage you to check it out. I believe it will be very insightful for you, as well as enhancing your burden to pray for the Jewish people. And when you're praying, pray for this Jewish person too! I could use the ongoing support of the Spirit on a moment by moment basis. Thanks!

Michael L. Brown

Bib Lit Major
June 17th 2003, 01:53 AM
Will do, Dr. Brown. Thank you once again!

In His service,

Kevin

Marc Schindler
June 17th 2003, 02:59 AM
The first occurrence of this important command is at the close of the holiness precepts in:

Scripture Verse:
Lev. 19 (vv. 35-37): “You shall not falsify measures of length, weight, or capacity. You shall have an honest balance, honest weights, an honest ephah, and an honest hin. I the Lord am your God who freed you from the land of Egypt. You shall faithfully observe My laws and all My rules: I am the Lord” (NJV).

Well, as if you USAmericans didn't have enough trouble with the French these days, you might enjoy (in the sense of [i]Schadenfreude[/] the news that the platinum kilogram mass standard in Paris has apparently been losing 50 micrograms a year, which is sadly of no help to me on the bathroom scales, but it is actually (and I'm not making this up) a problem in the scientific world.

That other ally your government had trouble with, Germany, has created what they claim is the roundest object every made by hand, a proposed new 1 kg standard made out of pure silicon. It looks to me like a giant piece of hematite and is so perfectly round that if the Earth were that round, Mt. Everest would only be some 4 metres high.

Little to do with religion -- just a tongue-in-cheek comment on "false standards"
:smile:

Wildcat
June 17th 2003, 03:09 AM
Dr. Brown,

Did you by chance receive my typed letter a couple of weeks ago? I realize you're very busy, but I'm hoping you'll have time to respond to it. Your work in volumes 1-3 has been outstanding. I look forward to volume 4. Although it cannot probably be ascertained at this point, do you have any planned approximate completion and release dates for volume 4 and the Messianic Bible?

Thanks.

Wildcat.

Socrates
June 20th 2003, 11:24 AM
06-14-2003 @ 04:46 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122693#post122693)
Hamster:

Do Jews take the Old Testament "literally"? Because I point this out to what I gather are rather conservative Jews (in a chatroom I frequent) and they say "Well, we don't take it literally".. The Old Testament and all that. What should I do given that response?

BTW, "conservative" Judaism is pretty liberal. See Conservative Jews reject Torah, allegedly in light of archaeology (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0401torah.asp).

Marc Schindler
June 24th 2003, 04:35 PM
yxboom: thanks for a very thorough analysis of the methodology and Weltanschauung of the "anti-Missionaries."

Interestingly enough, this is also the approach that the self-styled "countercult missions" take when attacking certain Christian groups which are on the fringe of Christianity, by which it seems they mean not only Mormons and JWs, but Catholics, Orthodox, and mainstream Protestants:

Ontario Consultants for Religious Tolerance (an offshoot of Queen's University, in Kingston ON):
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cultmenu.htm

And CESNUR, the Centre for Studies on New Religions, based in Turin, Italy. This is from a paper given at their last meeting, in Salt Lake City, where Prof. Douglas Cowan, Assistant Professor of Religious Studies and Sociology, University of Missouri, Kansas City (and a fellow Canuckistani -- he got his PhD in religious studies at the U of Calgary, where I got my BSc in math and computer science). He has harsh criticism for the methods used by those who choose to "minister" to those whom fundamentalists exclude from Christianity:
This is not so much a theoretical paper, an historical overview of the Christian countercult, or a summary of research completed, as it is reflections on a report from the field. In the time that I have, I’d like to do three things: (a) reprise very briefly just what the Christian countercult is; (b) discuss the recent Evangelical Ministries to New Religions (EMNR) conference, which was held at the Baptist seminary in Louisville, and to which both Gordon Melton and I were invited as not uncontroversial guest speakers; and, finally, (c) consider the research that has been done on the countercult in light of that experience, particularly aspects of countercult worldview maintenance and cognitive praxis.

http://www.cesnur.org/2002/slc/cowan.htm

Anyway, this isn't meant as a criticism of your post; far from it -- it shows that this kind of methodology is a trap that is all too easy for any of us to fall into.

dizzle
June 24th 2003, 07:15 PM
Hey Marc, Boom posted it as TWeb rep, it was writtten by Dr. Michael Brown.

usarmy770
July 10th 2003, 05:27 AM
I was raised as an Orthodox Jew of the Chabad persuasion and studied many of the texts which Dr. Brown quotes while in Yeshivah. When I was 15 or 16 years old, I began to study the anti-missionary "doctrine" and was impressed with many of the arguments presented in 'You Take Jesus, I'll Take God' and 'Their Hollow Inheritance.' After I converted (for lack of a better term) to Atheism, I began to realize how easily those very arguments can be used against the Orthodox Jews as well. BTW, most if not all anti-missionaries are of the Orthodox sect of Judaism.

I recall as a sixteen year old seeing a video of a lecture by Immanuel Schochat, whose name is probably well known to missionaries, where he challenged anyone to a debate on the topic of Christianity provided that the panel was made up entirely of professionals. He said that his "opponents" refused to go along with that condition.

I hereby accept his challenge and propose several conditions of my own, namely:

1) Nothing is to be accepted on a matter of faith, everything must be based in facts.

2) He is not authorized to call me an Apikoros, apostate, Meshumad, Kofer Ba'ikar, heretic or any other slanderous names.

3) I serve as the moderator.

4) He is to answer ALL of my statements clearly and concisely, and I will do likewise.

5) He is not to mention my father or older brothers unless he is directly quoting them.

6) There will be opening remarks, 7 rounds, final answers and concluding statements. The panel members will address the audience following the concluding statements. If necessary, a follow-up debate will be scheduled.

7) Rabbi Schochat will not mock me for my young age, perceived inexperience or the fact that I dropped out of Yeshivah.

8) I reserve the right to pull a hefelsir with a swift punch-in-the-gut if any of the above rules are broken.

The challenge is on the table, Rabbi Schochat. Come and get it.

Rabbi Schochat will have to attempt to refute the following statements:

1) From the Orthodox Jewish point of view, there is nothing wrong with any of the atrocities perpetrated against the Jews in the last two thousand years.

2) Messianic Chabad and Christianity have too many apparent similarities for anyone with a shred of common sense to ignore.

3) The Farbreingen is a form of brainwashing.

4) The God of the Hebrew Bible is a male chauvinist.

In addition, Rabbi Schochat may present any statement he wishes to have discussed prior to the beginning of the debate.

If Rabbi Schochat is too chicken to accept my challenge, I'm open to other candidates from the Orthodox Jewish Community. Since I know that none of them frequent this website, I'd appreciate it if someone who is in contact with them can pass on the message.

-Brian Keller

dizzle
July 10th 2003, 05:32 AM
Brian, are you proposing this as a debate to happen here? If so, you will want to post this in the Gym as that is the place for such challenges. On a housekeeping note, it is not proper in a debate for a participant to be a moderator, nor for a debate on this site would we be able to allow a member to be a moderator but would assign an appropriate one out of our staff to the debate.

It appears from closely reading your comments that this is not a debate you intend to happen here but elsewhere with a panel etc. If so, I wish you luck in that venture.

usarmy770
July 10th 2003, 05:52 AM
WOW! DeeDee, that was FAST! I had barely hit 'submit reply' and I had a message in my email about this topic being replied to.

I am proposing a real-time debate. It's the only form of debate I can deal with, that's the only reason that I have not been posting countless challenges in the gym.

-Brian

dizzle
July 10th 2003, 06:02 AM
Ahh... Brian okay... but maybe you will consider so in the future. Gym debates are a lot of fun, and it would be a good training ground for you to get the hang of written debates.

usarmy770
July 10th 2003, 09:47 AM
I think I'll give it a shot, but it'll probably have to wait until I get back from Iraq. I prefer oral debate because I'm better at speaking than at writing.

AVmetro
July 10th 2003, 07:14 PM
After I converted (for lack of a better term) to Atheism, I began to realize how easily those very arguments can be used against the Orthodox Jews as well. BTW, most if not all anti-missionaries are of the Orthodox sect of Judaism.

Are you still an atheist?

God bless

usarmy770
July 12th 2003, 03:48 AM
My culture is Jewish, my area of expertise is Judeo-christianity, my faith is Atheism.

For all practical purposes, I am an Atheist. I sincerely hope you weren't asking me that question with the intent to proselytize to me.

-Brian Keller

AVmetro
August 8th 2003, 04:07 AM
No. But you can see why I might want to ask. :smile:

usarmy770
August 11th 2003, 07:16 PM
Nope. I don't see why you might want to ask. Care to explain?

Socrates
October 28th 2003, 03:12 AM
I have posted this because Dr Brown's book Our Hands are Stained with Blood, ch. 2, repeats a common charge that the great 4th-century preacher John Chrysostom was antisemitic. Alas, he relies on a secondary source with an anti-Christian axe to grind, which seems out of character from one who does such good work exposing the duplicity of anti-missionaries. This is largely based on a mistranslation of his sermon Against the Judaizers as Against the Jews. Also, much of Chrysostom's preaching followed the strong language of the challenge-riposte paradigm, also followed in the Bible but is harsh to squeamish American ears.

The following is an Eastern Orthodox perspective from www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/antisemitism.htm

Anti-Semitism is a complex issue in the Fathers, since the position of the Jews, over the centuries, has changed from that of a sometimes violently anti-Christian religious and social force to that of a victimized people. The same Jews who mistreated and victimized the early Christians, something often overlooked in contemporary historical sources, have in our times been the victims of mistreatment themselves. This observation must be seen, of course, through the prism of the Zionist policies pursued in the establishment of the Israeli State and the subsequent violence against the Palestinian people, many of them Orthodox; but certainly, as civilized people, we must recognize and loudly decry the atrocities visited on the Jews (and many other peoples, of course) during WW II. Ultimately, then, as I shall emphasize below, we should not glorify or vilify the Jewish people, but understand them in historical context: sometimes as persecutors themselves, sometimes as the persecuted. A controversial but, I think, very fair book by Bernard Lazare, Antisemitism: Its History and Causes (Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska Press, 1995), makes precisely my point: that to call anti-Semitism a single thing and to discuss it outside of historical context is to deal wrongly with the historical record. He also rightly points out that anti-Semitism often stems from intolerance within Judaism itself.

As well, it must be remembered that the Fathers of the Church view Jews as the adherents of a religion, as a spiritual entity, not merely as a race. And even when they use the word race, they also mean it in a spiritual way, not simply as we use it today. (Thus "Judaizers" was an accusation made against non-Jews as well as Jews. And sinners are sometimes called a "race.") These distinctions are lost on contemporary dilettantes, who think that the curse on the Jewish race applies exclusively to people of a single blood line, rather than to any person who, like the hypocrites of the Jewish establishment of Christ's time, perpetuate anti-Christian sentiments. A "Jew" can, once more, be a Gentile who makes a mockery of Christianity within the Christian Church. It is obvious, then, that the term "Jew" is used in a number of very special ways in Patristic literature. (We True Christians, in fact, are called, by the Fathers, the "New Israel" and "Israelites," in the sense of remaining loyal to the whole Covenant of God's Providence which the Jewish religious leaders violated and defiled.)

(One can perhaps compare the use of the term "Jew" by the Fathers to references to "Ethiopians" in the desert Fathers. This term is frequently used to describe dark spirits and demons. That the Ethiopians as a race were, at the same time, Orthodox, and that their race was adorned with Saints [prior to Chalcedon], this was a recognized fact in the Early Church. The word is used in a way that transcends race alone.)

Calling any Church Father anti-Semitic on the basis of ostensibly denigrating references to Jews, therefore, is to fall to intellectual and historiographical simple-mindedness. Applying modern sensitivities and terms regarding race to ancient times, as though there were a direct parallel between modern and ancient circumstances, is inane. This abuse of history is usually advocated by unthinking observers who simply cannot function outside the cognitive dimensions of modernity. My remarks in this regard apply not only to those who find literal anti-Semitism in the Fathers, but also to women, in our times, who, deviating from a true vision of femininity and a Christian understanding of the lofty place of the female in the Church, are quick to characterize statements in the Fathers about the FALLEN nature of women (which are often quite harsh) as symptomatic of a general denigration of females (as though fallen males are not also brutally portrayed in the Fathers). Post-Lapsarian and unrestored nature, whatever the gender of the individual, is corrupt and cannot be described in positive ways. (Restored men and women are another matter, and here equality in Christ prevails, whether as regards race or gender.) A clinical diagnosis of human spiritual ills is not the same thing as prescriptive racism or intolerance. To suggest this is unfair. It is not so much that the Fathers were misogynists or racists as it that those who find misogyny and racism in their writings are possessed by small minds, perplexed spirits, and the whimsical concerns of our age. I am loath to loathe anything; however, such smallness is something that I abhor!

With regard to St. John Chrysostomos, there are certainly very harsh condemnations of the Jews in his writings. In the most commonly cited of these, he calls the Jews "pigs" and associates them with drunkenness. I would never use such language today, at a time when Christian-Jewish relations and the course of history have brought about a different reality than that which St. John confronted. (Who in America, today, for example, would refer to "Japs" when speaking of the Japanese? Nonetheless, during WW II this was a perfectly acceptable public expression, on account of the reality of the hostilities which existed, then, between the U.S. and Japan.) As I have said, these things must be put in the context of the hostility which Jews themselves had against Christians and the fact that the Christian Fathers found abhorrent the rejection of the Messiah by the Jews. St. John's statements are expressions of theological and "ideological" (if I may use this somewhat inappropriate modern term) outrage, not of racism. It speaks for itself that he also praised the Jewish Prophets, those Jews (including the Apostles) who accepted Christianity, and even preached, like all of the Church Fathers, against the wrong or violent treatment of Jews. These things, of course, are seldom mentioned by those who want to make a racist of him. One exception, by the way, is an April 27, 1998, editorial in Christianity Today (Vol. XL(5):12), which makes some of the same points that I do in defending Christians against a film presented at the National Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC, a documentary that holds Christianity responsible for Nazism (an outrage which even some Jews have decried). Finally, the Divine Chrysostomos was a great rhetorician. Much of his language reflects the rhetorical devices of his time, not the personal antipathy which a reader jaundiced by the "nicety" of modern discourse might attribute to him. This must be remembered at all times when reading him and other Church Fathers.

There is an excellent study by Robert L. Welken, John Chrysostom and the Jews: Rhetoric and Reality in the Late Fourth Century. It is an essential work. It very convincingly demonstrates not only that St. John Chrysostomos was not an anti-Semite, but that his supposed writings against the Jews are actually against the "Judaizers," a terrible mistranslation which convicts him unfairly of racism, when in fact his words are addressed to a theological element in the Christian Church. This work was published in 1983 and is a "must" for anyone wishing to understand the issue at hand.

I would also direct you to a study, History, Religion, and Antisemitism (I could be wrong about the title, but it is close to this), by Stanford Professor Gavin Langmuir, a prominent historian of anti-Semitism, which was published in Berkeley, in 1990, by the University of California Press. This work approaches the history of anti-Semitism with a sophistication, based on good historical research, that puts an end to that unenlightened and artless theory, first put forth in the last century by eccentric (though admittedly trained) scholars and passed about today by coffee shop "scholars" whose greatest skills lie in classifying toilet tissue by gradations of softness; namely, that there is a chain of thought connecting St. John Chrysostomos, Luther, and Hitler, and that its links are cemented together by anti-Semitism. In so doing, he offers peripheral support (amidst some ideas about Christian thought that I would question) for many of the points that I have made about our contemporary ignorance of the historical image of Jews in the ancient world, their anti-Christian sentiments and their violence against Christians, and the many ways that the Fathers of the Church used the word "Jew" in their writings and the diverse images that this usage entailed. It is important not only that you understand the context in which charges of anti-Semitism are usually raised against the Fathers (the Chrysostomos-Luther-Hitler link), but that you reply to such ignorance by pointing out the complex nature of anti-Semitism, its enigmatic history, and its various forms in Christian writings (for example, early Christian anti-Jewish polemics are something quite different from Medieval Western anti-Semitism, the latter more often than not the product of actual racism).

If you are confronting someone who has accused St. John Chrysostomos of anti-Semitism, enlightening such a person may be a difficult thing. You will face endless citations from his writings that most simply refuse to put in context. Moreover, there are people who simply refuse to relinquish the idea that anti-Semitism links Christianity, the Reformation, and The Third Reich. This comfortable view of history helps them to avoid that complexity that characterizes the true course of human experience. It also allows them to attribute to the Fathers of the Church a meanness of spirit by which they can separate themselves from the Patristic witness and thus the compelling force of Orthodox Christianity. The only thing that one can say about such tenacious anti-Patristic polemicists is that there is a definite link, in them, between the hippocampi and the glutei maximi, and this link is cemented in place by utter stupidity. Forgive my harshness and strong language, but blasphemy which is supported by ignorance, and which gains social acceptance, is one of the most destructive forces in society.

It must never be tolerated, however vogue it becomes.

I do not deny, by the way, that there is much naive, unthinking, and un-Christian anti-Semitism among some Orthodox Christians, whose wrong views are, nonetheless, supported by certain truthful memories, embedded as they are in the historical consciousness of our Church, of the harsh and undeniable mistreatment of Christians in the Early Church by the Jews: a consciousness which we do not hold in common with Western Christians, who are separated from the Apostolic Church and their original Christian roots and who therefore lack such memories. The naked anti-Semitism of some Orthodox people (which I do not endorse, and for which reason I have been ridiculed), however, pales, as I said above, before the putrid bigotry of those who, steeped in the hypocrisy of the modern world and its widespread historiographical disdain for the beauty of the age of the ancient Fathers, attribute to the Patristic witness the filthy racism and human denigration of human beings that belong as much, if not more, to our times and to the heterodox than to the ancient world and our Orthodox forefathers. And whereas modern man lays claim to supposed enlightenment, yet still practices racial genocide and is beset by the worst forms of bigotry, at least ancient man had his alleged social "primitiveness" to justify whatever injustices he may or may not have in fact embraced.

I would avoid people who like to dismiss the Patristic witness because of flaws in the character of the Fathers, whether real or imagined. I befriended at Princeton a brilliant philosopher (Rose Rand), then an old woman, who was one of Wittgenstein's few female students. She was a rabid anti-Semite. But this did not make her philosophy inadequate. It did not invalidate her brilliant insight into some very intricate theories about human thought and language. The same could be said of the Fathers. If perchance some were anti-Semitic (and again, to say this unreservedly and without a clear definition of terms is to nullify the meaning of intellectual history and to use language wrongly), does this mean that the Truth which they taught was tainted by their anti-Semitism? I think not. To say so is, again, simple-mindedness and ultimately constitutes an anti-intellectual stand. And anti-intellectualism, despite its moldy and revolting presence in some Orthodox circles, is inimical to the Patristic spirit.

The matter at hand is, once more, complex. It should not be discussed with people who lack an appreciation for that intelligent shade of gray that lies between the antipodes of white naivete and lack ignorance. As a case in point, Dr. Rand, my aformentioned, virulently anti-Semitic friend, was a Polish Jew!

ilkhani'tus
March 3rd 2004, 08:27 AM
Well, I've found out that there is a rebuttal (http://www.messiahtruth.com/weights.html) out to Dr. Brown's work, as to whether it's any good, I don't know...all that stuff is beyond me.....


The plain truth is this: It is the anti-missionaries who are often being devious and deceitful. For if they would be honest with themselves, they would have to admit that using the same canon of criticism on their own sacred texts, they would utterly shipwreck their own faith. In other words, if the New Testament would be disqualified by anti missionary arguments in one hour, using those same arguments, the Tanakh would be disqualified in a matter of minutes and the Talmud in a matter of seconds! The anti-missionaries will readily accept the views of critical, nihilistic New Testament6 Scholars, while following only rigidly conservative (general, traditional Jewish) scholars of the Old Testament.


The truth is that those that challenge Christianity have 100% valid reasons for their questions, and to answer that the shoe is to be put on the other foot is hypocrisy. Judaism and Christianity do not have equivalent theologies and methodologies of interpretation. The method of criticizing the one does not work for the other. I would ask Dr. Brown what is your view of Catholics? Your disagreement is because they have a completely different view of Scripture, and how it is to be understood. It is quite valid to challenge them ACCORDING to the theology they have and not according to yours. It is also valid to argue that they should adopt your method of interpretation. But to attack them if they question your views based on YOUR methodology, is hypocrisy.The italicized part, is I beleive, them quoting Dr. Brown?

Bob Jenkins
March 11th 2004, 03:24 AM
Some may have noticed that I have been incorporating that piece of scripture in my sig. I think not only does it apply to making judgements regarding standards of accepatance of testament but is apt for conduct of secular government. Equal weights of justice (I think that was mentioned previously) should be applied as well. America, and many other democracies, was founded on that very principle.