PDA

View Full Version : Romans 4:23-25 Support for Limited Atonement



rhutchin
02-25-2015, 04:10 AM
We read in Romans 4


23 Now it was not written for [Abraham's] sake alone, that [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Paul is writing to believers in Rome - To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: (Rom 1:7). When Paul uses the terms, "we," "us," and "our," he includes himself with the believers. As believers, they are God's elect. So, we can read the verses in this way.


23 Now it was not written for [Abraham's] sake alone, that [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for God's elect also, to whom it shall be imputed, if God's elect believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for the offenses of God's elect, and was raised again for the justification of God's elect.

Christ was delivered - crucified - for the offenses/sins of God's elect and He was raised for their justification. If as some say, Christ died for all people, then it must be true that He was raised for their justification - thereby all are saved (as the Universalists maintain). If, however, Christ died only for God's elect and was raised for their justification, then only God's elect are saved. Regardless, it is impossible that Christ have died for the reprobate and then be raised for their justification because they are not saved.

bling
02-26-2015, 11:14 AM
All this happened for Christians, but Paul does not say: “All this happened for us only.”

Paul does not say: “Christ did not die for all unbelievers, also”.

You might want to study: “Atonement” to understand how atonement works by going back to Lev. 5.

This is a huge topic which will take lots of words to explain if you want to read and study on the subject.

Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and the Hebrew writer all describe Christ’s sacrifice as a ransom payment, so how does that fit?

Satan does not “deserve” to be paid.

God deserves everything, but if God is being paid it would not be described as a “ransom payment” (a huge, undeserved payment to kidnapper [God is not a kidnapper either]).

Who does that leave to be the undeserving recipient of this huge payment that the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of Christ might have benefit from receiving?

You might look at Ro. 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

Scripture says “God presented” but that presenting is an offering that can be accepted or rejected contingent on faith (to be received by faith). Without faith God’s offer will not be accepted.

The “sacrifice of atonement” is described by Jesus and others as “the ransom payment”, so God is offering this ransom payment (Christ crucified) to be accepted or rejected contingent on the faith of the individual. God and Christ (from Christ pray in the Garden) would have personally preferred Christ blood to remain flowing through Christ’s veins, but I need to actual feel that blood flowing over me externally and internally. I want Christ blood outside His body cleansing me, so that payment God is offering me has great value to me. If you do not believe what Christ did the Blood has no value to you and you would reject God’s offer.

God does not need anything to forgive humans and forgave lots of people prior to Christ going to the cross in fact Paul says: “…he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”.

God does not personally “need” Christ to go to the cross, but to help us out of Love for us, God desired a willing Christ to go to the cross. This provided the needed discipline that was missing under the OT.

phat8594
02-26-2015, 11:53 AM
We read in Romans 4


23 Now it was not written for [Abraham's] sake alone, that [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.



Eh..looks more like CONDITIONAL election to me. :teeth:

rhutchin
02-27-2015, 04:25 AM
Eh..looks more like CONDITIONAL election to me. :teeth:

Conditional but limiting it to a specific group of people - those believing. Thus, Christ was both delivered and raised for believers (or those who would believe) - the elect. Christ could not have been delivered for the offenses of unbelievers (or those who were not to believe) without also being raised for their justification meaning that they would also be saved.

Thus, Paul's emphasis - Christ was delivered for OUR offences, and was raised again for OUR justification.

Christ was delivered for offenses - the sins of believers imputed to Him
Christ was raised for justification - the righteousness of Christ imputed to believers.

rhutchin
02-27-2015, 04:34 AM
All this happened for Christians, but Paul does not say: “All this happened for us only.”

Paul does not say: “Christ did not die for all unbelievers, also”.

Paul ties together Christ's death and His resurrection. They cannot be separated. Those for whom Christ died are those for whom Christ was raised. Christ not only dealt with the sins of those for whom He died, but He also justified them by His resurrection.


Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and the Hebrew writer all describe Christ’s sacrifice as a ransom payment, so how does that fit?

Satan does not “deserve” to be paid.

God deserves everything, but if God is being paid it would not be described as a “ransom payment” (a huge, undeserved payment to kidnapper [God is not a kidnapper either]).

Christ paid a ransom for those who were slaves - to sin. Christ purchased His people from sin as sin required the payment. God gave slaves to Christ on the condition that Christ pay the penalty (ransom) incurred by those slaves by their sin.

dacristoy
02-27-2015, 08:12 AM
Conditional but limiting it to a specific group of people - those believing. Thus, Christ was both delivered and raised for believers (or those who would believe) - the elect. Christ could not have been delivered for the offenses of unbelievers (or those who were not to believe) without also being raised for their justification meaning that they would also be saved.Thus, Paul's emphasis - Christ was delivered for OUR offences, and was raised again for OUR justification.

Christ was delivered for offenses - the sins of believers imputed to Him
Christ was raised for justification - the righteousness of Christ imputed to believers.

Rhut, you present your own personal conclusions and then assume or suppose them to be binding as far as what God can and cannot do..
Say "Omnipotent"...

dacristoy
02-27-2015, 09:09 AM
1 Timothy 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Timothy 2:6 (WE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
6 He gave his life to set all men free. This matter was told at the right time.

1 Timothy 2:4-7 (MSG) | Whole Chapter
4-7 He wants not only us but everyone saved, you know, everyone to get to know the truth we’ve learned: that there’s one God and only one, and one Priest-Mediator between God and us—Jesus, who offered himself in exchange for everyone held captive by sin, to set them all free. Eventually the news is going to get out. This and this only has been my appointed work: getting this news to those who have never heard of God, and explaining how it works by simple faith and plain truth.
All men have been ransomed from the certainty of death. The hold of the grave has been broken for all men paving the way for the judgment of Christ as to who lives and who will die. . The soul that sinnith, it shall die, this is the certainty that was replaced by Christ’s death.
1 Timothy 2:4-7 (MSG) He wants not only us but everyone saved, you know, everyone to get to know the truth we’ve learned: that there’s one God and only one, and one Priest-Mediator between God and us—Jesus, who offered himself in exchange for everyone held captive by sin, to set them all free. Eventually the news is going to get out. This and this only has been my appointed work: getting this news to those who have never heard of God, and explaining how it works by simple faith and plain truth.

phat8594
02-27-2015, 09:15 AM
Conditional but limiting it to a specific group of people - those believing.

Glad to see that we agree that election is conditional. Conditional would by definition mean that the benefits of election are limited to those that fulfill the condition. In this case, the condition is belief or faith (used interchangeably).




Christ could not have been delivered for the offenses of unbelievers (or those who were not to believe) without also being raised for their justification meaning that they would also be saved.

Interesting thought, but I don't see that supported by scripture. Rather, it seems to be a conclusion based on a philosophical and theological framework of logic.

JW's often say that the trinity doesn't make sense logically. And to that much -- they at least have a point.

But the trinity is taught not because it is explicitly taught in scripture, but because it can easily be deduced from the teachings regarding the nature of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit throughout scripture.

The same can be said for the fact that Christ died for the sins of the world, but only those that have faith will enjoy the benefits thereof.




Thus, Paul's emphasis - Christ was delivered for OUR offences, and was raised again for OUR justification.

I can appreciate your thoughts here - and I do believe that you are the one emphasizing the word 'our'.

In context:



Romans 4:23-25
This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.


We can see that the 'our' is a point of personalization and not one of limitation. IOW, Paul is making the point that what is true for Abraham in his example 'it was credited to him as righteousness' is true of anyone who has faith as well.

I think it should be fairly obvious that those who don't have faith can't have faith credited to them as righteousness. So again, the 'our' isn't put in as something to 'limit', but actually put in the text to 'expand' -- expand God's crediting of righteousness not just to Abraham -- but to anyone who has the faith of Abraham.

In context, the only thing we see that would 'limit' (I think that is a poor word given the context) the crediting of the righteousness is the condition of faith. That is because God credits righteousness to anyone who has the faith of Abraham -- so again, it's not limited, but rather conditional -- meaning the call is open (truly open) and the benefits thereof are only applied to those who fulfill the condition of faith.

rhutchin
02-27-2015, 11:14 AM
Rhut, you present your own personal conclusions and then assume or suppose them to be binding as far as what God can and cannot do..
Say "Omnipotent"...

You are free to argue against the positions I take. Why not try doing so?

rhutchin
02-27-2015, 11:21 AM
All men have been ransomed from the certainty of death. The hold of the grave has been broken for all men paving the way for the judgment of Christ as to who lives and who will die. . The soul that sinneth, it shall die, this is the certainty that was replaced by Christ’s death.
1 Timothy 2:4-7 (MSG) He wants not only us but everyone saved, you know, everyone to get to know the truth we’ve learned: that there’s one God and only one, and one Priest-Mediator between God and us—Jesus, who offered himself in exchange for everyone held captive by sin, to set them all free. Eventually the news is going to get out. This and this only has been my appointed work: getting this news to those who have never heard of God, and explaining how it works by simple faith and plain truth.

Consistent with the mystery revealed to Paul, as he describes in Ephesians 3, the term, "all men," refers to the Gentile as well as the Jew. Thus, God will have both Jews and gentiles to be saved. Christ gave Himself a ransom for both Jews and gentiles.

If you want to expand this to mean each and every individual (if that is what you mean), you need to cite scriptures that provide this context as clearly as Ephesians 3 does.

rhutchin
02-27-2015, 11:49 AM
Conditional but limiting it to a specific group of people - those believing.Glad to see that we agree that election is conditional. Conditional would by definition mean that the benefits of election are limited to those that fulfill the condition. In this case, the condition is belief or faith (used interchangeably).


The verse does not speak to the issue of election. The conditional part limits the effect of Christ's death and resurrection - it was only to benefit believers. Non-believers receive no benefit. Thus, Christ dies for a specific group - believers - not all people and His resurrection is applied to those same people and guarantees their justification (thus, their salvation). In case it is forgotten, God knows who the believers are and knew them when He created the world. Per John 3:16, God gave His son so that believers would not perish. Per Romans 4, Christ not only died for believers but additionally, He was raised for their justification - guaranteeing that they would not perish.



Christ could not have been delivered for the offenses of unbelievers (or those who were not to believe) without also being raised for their justification meaning that they would also be saved.Interesting thought, but I don't see that supported by scripture. Rather, it seems to be a conclusion based on a philosophical and theological framework of logic...

The same can be said for the fact that Christ died for the sins of the world, but only those that have faith will enjoy the benefits thereof.

Work with the verses that have been cited. Paul gives the application of his his argument saying,"Christ was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification." He links Christ's death with His resurrection. If Christ died for a person, He necessarily was raised for the justification of that person. It could not be said that Christ died for someone that He did not also justify.

To say that Christ died for the world means that He died for both Jews and gentiles as Ephesians 3 explains. Here we can be more specific and conclude that Christ died for believing Jews and believing gentiles and that He was then raised for their justification.



Thus, Paul's emphasis - Christ was delivered for OUR offences, and was raised again for OUR justification.
I can appreciate your thoughts here - and I do believe that you are the one emphasizing the word 'our'.

In context:



Romans 4:23-25
This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

We can see that the 'our' is a point of personalization and not one of limitation. IOW, Paul is making the point that what is true for Abraham in his example 'it was credited to him as righteousness' is true of anyone who has faith as well.

I think it should be fairly obvious that those who don't have faith can't have faith credited to them as righteousness. So again, the 'our' isn't put in as something to 'limit', but actually put in the text to 'expand' -- expand God's crediting of righteousness not just to Abraham -- but to anyone who has the faith of Abraham.

In context, the only thing we see that would 'limit' (I think that is a poor word given the context) the crediting of the righteousness is the condition of faith. That is because God credits righteousness to anyone who has the faith of Abraham -- so again, it's not limited, but rather conditional -- meaning the call is open (truly open) and the benefits thereof are only applied to those who fulfill the condition of faith.

By using "our," Paul drives home the point that only believers are in view - "to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him." The expansion is from Abraham who believes to all who believe. That expansion excludes unbelievers.

phat8594
03-03-2015, 08:46 AM
The verse does not speak to the issue of election. The conditional part limits the effect of Christ's death and resurrection - it was only to benefit believers. Non-believers receive no benefit. Thus, Christ dies for a specific group - believers


The bold part is a non-sequiter.


e.g.

1. I gave invitations to all my friends to that all people who come will enjoy the party and enjoy free drinks
2. I paid the event center in advance for all food, drinks, etc.
3. My friends must come to the party to enjoy the party and the free drinks (the condition)
4. People who do not come will not receive the benefits of the party.
5. Therefore I only paid the center for the people who come (the non-sequiter which clearly does not follow -- such a conclusion would be clearly false in this case)




To say that Christ died for the world means that He died for both Jews and gentiles as Ephesians 3 explains. Here we can be more specific and conclude that Christ died for believing Jews and believing gentiles and that He was then raised for their justification.

Ephesians 3 doesn't determine the context for John and the meaning of the world there.

More to the point -- have you considered your same reasoning for Romans 9:3-12 (which actually mentions the Jews & Gentiles in the immediate context):


Romans 3:9-12
What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.


The Bible is really crystal clear on this point: Christ died and paid for the sins of the entire world and yet only those who believe will be saved and receive the benefits of Christ's sacrifice.

dacristoy
03-06-2015, 10:51 AM
We read in Romans 4


23 Now it was not written for [Abraham's] sake alone, that [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Paul is writing to believers in Rome - To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: (Rom 1:7). When Paul uses the terms, "we," "us," and "our," he includes himself with the believers. As believers, they are God's elect. So, we can read the verses in this way.


23 Now it was not written for [Abraham's] sake alone, that [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for God's elect also, to whom it shall be imputed, if God's elect believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for the offenses of God's elect, and was raised again for the justification of God's elect.

Christ was delivered - crucified - for the offenses/sins of God's elect and He was raised for their justification. If as some say, Christ died for all people, then it must be true that He was raised for their justification - thereby all are saved (as the Universalists maintain). If, however, Christ died only for God's elect and was raised for their justification, then only God's elect are saved. Regardless, it is impossible that Christ have died for the reprobate and then be raised for their justification because they are not saved.

It can also be written the way that it was written.. If you want reformed theology you have to just keep changing the way scripture is/was written... Limited atonement is your error, not mine...

dacristoy
03-06-2015, 10:54 AM
Conditional but limiting it to a specific group of people - those believing. Thus, Christ was both delivered and raised for believers (or those who would believe) - the elect. Christ could not have been delivered for the offenses of unbelievers (or those who were not to believe) without also being raised for their justification meaning that they would also be saved.

Thus, Paul's emphasis - Christ was delivered for OUR offences, and was raised again for OUR justification.

Christ was delivered for offenses - the sins of believers imputed to Him
Christ was raised for justification - the righteousness of Christ imputed to believers.

Christ made atonement for sin... That he might be the judge of the living and the dead.

dacristoy
03-06-2015, 10:58 AM
You are free to argue against the positions I take. Why not try doing so?
Your positions are so sophistic, so unreasonable that any response would have to border on the unrealistic in order to make sense to you. Kinda like saying to a blind man, "LOOK".