Pope: Head Of The Church??

[Jude3b]

The Roman Catholic Catechism claims that:

"The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls" (Page 246, #937).

According to the Bible, the pope is NOT the head of the true church of God - the body of Christ. That position is reserved exclusively for the Lord Jesus Christ: "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church..." (Eph. 5:23)

Why does the Roman Catholic religion want to set the pope up as anti-Christ?

[Hail Mary]

Jude3b, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

[Jude3b]

Jude3b, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Is that the most intelligent thing you can post?

[Jude3b]

Jude3b, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Dear Mr. ave_maria:

Do you still dress in drag?

No, I have never beat my wife. And it was kind of rude for your to suggest that I ever would.

Now, Roman Catholic lover, I have some nagging questions concerning the pope, the head of your Roman Catholic church. Perhaps you could answer them for me?

1) Why didn't God tell us in the Bible that He was sending the pope as the Vicar of Christ?

2) Why does the Bible insist that Jesus is still the head of the church of God - the body of Christ, if he isn't?

3) Why does the Roman Catholic church want the pope to be the final authority instead of the Lord Jesus Christ?

4) Why does the Roman Catholic church want the pope to be your teacher instead of the Holy Spirit of God?

[Hail Mary]

Jude, you know there is a test in Scripture to help you identify the anti-Christ. You know that, right? Please tell me you read it, and understood it BEFORE you hurled accusations of our Pope being the anti-Christ.

I'll even give you 5 pearls if you post the chapter, verse and text of the test.

[Jude3b]

Jude, you know there is a test in Scripture to help you identify the anti-Christ. You know that, right? Please tell me you read it, and understood it BEFORE you hurled accusations of our Pope being the anti-Christ.

I'll even give you 5 pearls if you post the chapter, verse and text of the test.


Dear Mr. ave_maria:

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." (2 John 7)

Literally, "the deceiver and the antichrist, who has entered the world and does not confess Jesus Christ, as the Lord."

As it states in I John 2:18, already there are "many antichrists" What is John saying?

Well, although the Papacy did not exist in 90 AD (which was about the time John wrote this) and actually did not exist until 313 AD, it is a perfect description of the papacy!

The spirit of anti-Christ is manifest in the papacy by the fact that the popes of Rome deny that Jesus Christ is the one and only true Savior of the World, rejecting God's Word and seeking to undermine His teachings. How does Roman Catholicism do this, you ask?

Romanism and the Papacy is an "Anti-Christ" in the sense that it is "AGAINST" what Christ and His Word clealy declare.

The Word of God is Final Authority. Romanism says no - Traditions and the popes are final authority. Hence they are "Anti" or Against Christ and His Word.

Salvation is found ONLY in Christ. Romanism says Not so, that Salvation is found in the teachings and sacraments administered by the church of Rome. That is Anti-Christ, or "Against Christ."

Only God can forgive sins. Romanism says their Roman Catholic church forgives sins. That is anti-God!

The Word of God clearly shows that the church of God - the body of Christ is the "One True Church". Romanism says their religion is the "one true church." That is anti - the body of Christ!

The head of the church of God - the body of Christ is the LORD Jesus Christ. Romanism says the head of their church is the pope, the "Vicar of Christ." That is "Anti-Christ" or in place of Christ.

[Hail Mary]

Dear Mr. ave_maria:

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." (2 John 7)

Excellent! 5 pearls to you! And since the Pope and the teachings of the Catholic Church proclaim Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh, then what conclusion do you draw from that?


Literally, "the deceiver and the antichrist, who has entered the world and does not confess Jesus Christ, as the Lord."

As it states in I John 2:18, already there are "many antichrists" What is John saying?

He's saying the anti-Christ will not confess Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. The Pope and the teachings of the Catholic Church proclaim Jesus Christ, our Lord, IS come in the flesh. We proclaim Mary to be the Mother of God, do you? Do you deny Christ was conceived of the flesh of Mary?

Well, although the Papacy did not exist in 90 AD (which was about the time John wrote this) and actually did not exist until 313 AD, it is a perfect description of the papacy!

I wish you would get your stories straight, in this thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=58060) you claimed Siricius (384 AD) was the first Pope. Miltiades was the Pope in 313.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

[Jude3b]

Excellent! 5 pearls to you! And since the Pope and the teachings of the Catholic Church proclaim Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh, then what conclusion do you draw from that?




He's saying the anti-Christ will not confess Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. The Pope and the teachings of the Catholic Church proclaim Jesus Christ, our Lord, IS come in the flesh. We proclaim Mary to be the Mother of God, do you? Do you deny Christ was conceived of the flesh of Mary?



I wish you would get your stories straight, in this thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=58060) you claimed Siricius (384 AD) was the first Pope. Miltiades was the Pope in 313.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.


Dear Mr. ave_maria:

Thank you for the pearls.

Constantine was the first "pope" - although his real title at that time was "Bishop of Bishops."

Siricius (384-399) was the first Roman Bishop to call himself "Pontifex Maximus" and a new term "Pope" (papa).

That is when you could say that pagan Rome became the "holy" city. Now the pope had the religious powers of Caesar and claimed to rule "the church."

The pope and the Roman Catholic church do not claim that the real Jesus Christ, the all sufficient Lord and Savior of the World has come in the flesh. How so, they do not recognize the one true Jesus Christ. They are anti-Christ in that they oppose the one and only true Savior and substitute the rules and regulations of Romanism for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and tell people salvation exists only in the church of Rome, instead of the only true Savior - Jesus Christ. Hence Romanism does not tell people that the true "Jesus Christ (Messiah and only Savior) has come in the flesh."

In essense Romanism states, "our ideas about a religious person called Jesus has allowed the religion of Roman Catholism to be your Messiah, if you will follow our teachings and keep all our rules and regulations," maybe after the burn-off in purgatory, you might be saved.

Want proof?

"Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ." (Page 210, #795 of the 1994 Roman Catholic Catechism).

Doesn't it bother you Mr. ave_maria, that your religion teaches you that your church is Christ?

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (I Cor. 8:6)

[David Hayward]

Jude,Jude3b, have you stopped beating your wife yet?refers to a famous question allegedly actually asked in cross-examination during a court case : "Have you stopped beating your wife? -- Yes, or No!", which a man who has not been beating his wife cannot answer with either "Yes, I have stopped beating my wife" or "No, I have not stopped beating my wife". The assumption inherent in that question was wrong, and the question fallacious.

Therefore be assured that Ave Maria was not accusing you of wife-beating, but using wry humour to highlight the incorrect premiss underlying : Why does the Roman Catholic religion want to set the pope up as anti-Christ?That is, Ave Maria was stating, "It doesn't"; hence also stating the question is unanswerable because, to put it politely, it is spurious.

David


PS to Ave Maria : The "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" reference in another thread was not wasted totally.

[Hail Mary]

PS to Ave Maria : The "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" reference in another thread was not wasted totally.

Wow, pearls to you! Our chief weapon is pearls! Well amongst our weaponry are pearls and....

[Bill the Cat]

"Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ." (Page 210, #795 of the 1994 Roman Catholic Catechism).

:bugeyes:

Ave_maria, is this true? Can you provide the context with text of this statement?

[Hail Mary]

:bugeyes:

Ave_maria, is this true? Can you provide the context with text of this statement?

We are the Body of Christ, so I can't answer this any more elegantly than Joan of Arc: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."

Here's an entry point in the Cathechism (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p2.htm#795), which is formatted a lot better in the link, but the section is excerpted below with reference to Scripture and quotes from the saints following.


792 Christ "is the head of the body, the Church." 225 He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father's glory, "in everything he [is] preeminent,"226 especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things.

793 Christ unites us with his Passover: all his members must strive to resemble him, "until Christ be formed" in them.227 "For this reason we . . . are taken up into the mysteries of his life, . . . associated with his sufferings as the body with its head, suffering with him, that with him we may be glorified."228

794 Christ provides for our growth: to make us grow toward him, our head,229 he provides in his Body, the Church, the gifts and assistance by which we help one another along the way of salvation.

795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does "head and members" mean? Christ and the Church.230

Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231

Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."233


225 Col 1:18.
226 Col 1:18.
227 Gal 4:19.
228 LG 7 § 4; cf. Phil 3:21; Rom 8:17.
229 Cf. Col 2:19; Eph 4:11-16.
230 St. Augustine, In Jo. ev. 21,8:PL 35,1568.
231 Pope St. Gregory the Great, Moralia in Job, præf.,14:PL 75,525A.
232 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III,48,2.
233 Acts of the Trial of Joan of Arc.

[Keumkang]

"By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world." 1 John 4:2-3 NASB

That's it. There's the textBook definition of Antichrist. The RCC proclaims with pretty much all believers:
...We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end....

...So no, the Pope is decidedly not the Antichrist. He may have a different view of HOW Jesus saves mankind(sacraments), but let's not pretend the Pope denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

That said, I don't believe our Lord was making Peter the first Pope in his"upon this rock" statement, as has surely been covered before.

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ.
I guess that sorta makes sense in that we are the Body of Christ...but why does the Holy See feel the need to make more extreme statements than those in scripture, knowing that they sound like blasphemy? It's a fine line between "We are the Body of Christ" and "We are all Christs"(ala New Age hippie-pinko-liberals :flaming:)

[Krusader]

"By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world." 1 John 4:2-3 NASB

That's it. There's the textBook definition of Antichrist. The RCC proclaims with pretty much all believers:
...We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end....

...So no, the Pope is decidedly not the Antichrist. He may have a different view of HOW Jesus saves mankind(sacraments), but let's not pretend the Pope denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

That said, I don't believe our Lord was making Peter the first Pope in his"upon this rock" statement, as has surely been covered before.


I guess that sorta makes sense in that we are the Body of Christ...but why does the Holy See feel the need to make more extreme statements than those in scripture, knowing that they sound like blasphemy? It's a fine line between "We are the Body of Christ" and "We are all Christs"(ala New Age hippie-pinko-liberals :flaming:)

I'd agree with your evaluation of "We are all Christs" statement - it sounds like some mumbo jumbo straight out of the New Age: "I am god," said Shirley McClain!

[Jomby]

I guess that sorta makes sense in that we are the Body of Christ...but why does the Holy See feel the need to make more extreme statements than those in scripture, knowing that they sound like blasphemy? It's a fine line between "We are the Body of Christ" and "We are all Christs"(ala New Age hippie-pinko-liberals :flaming:)

To be precise, it's not the Holy See that made this statement, but St. Augustine in his commentary on the Gospel of John. Also, a lot of things sound like blasphemy when they're ripped out of context. (cf. all of Jude3b's posts.):wink:

[Keumkang]

To be precise, it's not the Holy See that made this statement, but St. Augustine in his commentary on the Gospel of John. Also, a lot of things sound like blasphemy when they're ripped out of context. (cf. all of Jude3b's posts.):wink:
OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH!!! Man, that was a zinger :cheers: Thanks for the correction. St. Augustine was about to strike me with a lightni...er, a really heavy book, maybe? Disaster averted.:sigh:

[Jude3b]

Jude,refers to a famous question allegedly actually asked in cross-examination during a court case : "Have you stopped beating your wife? -- Yes, or No!", which a man who has not been beating his wife cannot answer with either "Yes, I have stopped beating my wife" or "No, I have not stopped beating my wife". The assumption inherent in that question was wrong, and the question fallacious.

Therefore be assured that Ave Maria was not accusing you of wife-beating, but using wry humour to highlight the incorrect premiss underlying : That is, Ave Maria was stating, "It doesn't"; hence also stating the question is unanswerable because, to put it politely, it is spurious.

David


PS to Ave Maria : The "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" reference in another thread was not wasted totally.

Dear David: Thank you for explaining the beating the wife question. That is interesting how you put that.

[Jude3b]

I'd agree with your evaluation of "We are all Christs" statement - it sounds like some mumbo jumbo straight out of the New Age: "I am god," said Shirley McClain!

Dear Crusader:

That would be shocking enough, but its actually right out of the Roman Catholic Catechism, the official doctrinal book of that religion.

Can I ask you a question Crusader? In your opinion, is Roman Catholicism a Christian denomination or is it another religion all together or is it a counterfeit version of Christianity?

Are Roman Catholics Christians? What makes someone a Christian?

[Jude3b]

To be precise, it's not the Holy See that made this statement, but St. Augustine in his commentary on the Gospel of John. Also, a lot of things sound like blasphemy when they're ripped out of context. (cf. all of Jude3b's posts.):wink:

Before someone calls me a liar, they should first check out the reference I supply:

The Roman Catholic Catechism states:

"Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Chritians, but Christ himself. Marvel and rejoice: WE HAVE BECOME CHRIST." (Page 210, #795).

That is a direct quote from the 1994 Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church.

If you want to call me a liar, and you doubt me, please look it up!

And yes, it is also a New Age, Occult teaching which further demonstrates that the Roman Catholic "magisterium" is not Christian and that Roman Catholicism itself is not Christian.

Roman Catholicism is not a Christian denomination - it is an entirely different religion.

Roman Catholics are not Christians in the normal definition of a Christian based on the Word of God, they are Roman Catholics.

[Jomby]

Before someone calls me a liar, they should first check out the reference I supply:

In the words of the great Miyagi, "No call nobody nothing." I was just pointing out that this quote is originally from St. Augustine, is presented as such in the Catechism, and should be read in its proper context.

[Jude3b]

In the words of the great Miyagi, "No call nobody nothing." I was just pointing out that this quote is originally from St. Augustine, is presented as such in the Catechism, and should be read in its proper context.


Allright Jomby:

Why don't you give us the "proper context" of the Catechism verse I quoted, since by your statement you are implying that I have taken it out of context or that it really says something different that I stated.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[Jomby]

Allright Jomby:

Why don't you give us the "proper context" of the Catechism verse I quoted, since by your statement you are implying that I have taken it out of context or that it really says something different that I stated.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Um, ok-- I thought I already did. Here is it for those who missed it: Augustine's Tractate on the Gospel of John, chapter 21 (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701021.htm).

[Jude3b]

Um, ok-- I thought I already did. Here is it for those who missed it: Augustine's Tractate on the Gospel of John, chapter 21 (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701021.htm).

No, No, No, I am not asking for the writings of Augustine. I want you to show that the verse in the Catechism of Roman Catholicism, the official doctrinal book for all of the Roman Catholic church, that I quoted was taken out of context by me, or misinterpred by me. That is what your post had intimated.

[Jomby]

No, No, No, I am not asking for the writings of Augustine. I want you to show that the verse in the Catechism of Roman Catholicism, the official doctrinal book for all of the Roman Catholic church, that I quoted was taken out of context by me, or misinterpred by me. That is what your post had intimated.

5 pearls, Jude, if you can figure this one out yourself. Otherwise, I'll be happy to explain how context works later this evening when I get the time.

[Jude3b]

5 pearls, Jude, if you can figure this one out yourself. Otherwise, I'll be happy to explain how context works later this evening when I get the time.

You can keep your pearls, but you need to take back the charge of liar unless you can clearly show that I took the verse from the Catechism of Roman Catholicism out of context and that I misinterpreted it.

[Jomby]

Jude, I've been around Tweb for a while and I'm smarter than that-- I won't allow myself to get sucked into the vortex of futility in trying to argue rationally with you. So I'm only going to say this once--

You offer as proof for your claim --that the RCC offers salvation through itself instead of through Christ-- a quotation taken from the Catechism. But this quotation is #1) itself already a quotation from Augustine and not a statement issued from the Church #2) contains another sentence, which you leave out, that explains its meaning. Are Christians not members of the body of Christ, and thus by extension part of Christ himself?

Jude, the text itself comes from a larger context that explains its meaning. Part of that context is its surrounding text and another part is the fact that it comes from a particular work of a particular theologian. To leave out referenceto either is to _take it out of context_.

And I'm not calling you a liar, Jude. I just think you need to be much more careful when you read things-- including things written by those you dislike.

[Jude3b]

Jude, I've been around Tweb for a while and I'm smarter than that-- I won't allow myself to get sucked into the vortex of futility in trying to argue rationally with you. So I'm only going to say this once--

You offer as proof for your claim --that the RCC offers salvation through itself instead of through Christ-- a quotation taken from the Catechism. But this quotation is #1) itself already a quotation from Augustine and not a statement issued from the Church #2) contains another sentence, which you leave out, that explains its meaning. Are Christians not members of the body of Christ, and thus by extension part of Christ himself?

Jude, the text itself comes from a larger context that explains its meaning. Part of that context is its surrounding text and another part is the fact that it comes from a particular work of a particular theologian. To leave out referenceto either is to _take it out of context_.

And I'm not calling you a liar, Jude. I just think you need to be much more careful when you read things-- including things written by those you dislike.


Dear Jomby:

First, the Roman Catholic Catechism is the OFFICIAL Doctrinal book of the Roman Catholic religion. So something that is taken from it should be official doctrine of that relgion - no matter where they got it from.

Yes, true Christians are members of the body of Christ.

Roman Catholics are members of the Roman Catholic religion.

Are all Roman Catholics Christians?

What makes someone a Christian? Are we a Christian because we belong to the Roman Catholic religion and got baptised by one of their priests as a baby? Or are we a Roman Catholic?

[BibleMan]

The Roman Catholic Catechism claims that:

"The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls" (Page 246, #937).

According to the Bible, the pope is NOT the head of the true church of God - the body of Christ. That position is reserved exclusively for the Lord Jesus Christ: "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church..." (Eph. 5:23)

Why does the Roman Catholic religion want to set the pope up as anti-Christ?



I don't know what their motivation is, but for sure Christ is the head of the "church." Never can any man be the head of "the body of Christ!"