Does the Lord's Prayer contradict sola fide?

[KingsGambit]

An old acquaintance of mine who is now a Catholic seminarian posted a blog post asserting that the Lord's Prayer contradicts the idea of salvation by faith alone because it holds that forgiveness of others is a condition for one's own forgiveness.

I am curious what thoughts others here have on this.

http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/...asses-how.html

[Paprika]

He confuses justification with a) salvation and b) forgiveness.

[Bill the Cat]

I think it's sort of comical how he thinks that a Catholic focusing on the Lord's Prayer and a sermon on that prayer at a Catholic Church is "too serendipitous to simply be a coincidence". Given the RCC's fixation with these particular verses, I don't see any reason to consider it anything but a probable coincidence...

[mikewhitney]

The Lord's prayer was given as an instruction about prayer. The discussion on forgiveness was focused on one's attitude when coming into prayer. Such attitude should be one of reconciliation with our brethren as we also see God's forgiveness.

Jesus was likely highlighting the tendency of the people to promote divisions (e.g. by being judgmental toward everyone else) yet seeking union with God.

[Teallaura]

An old acquaintance of mine who is now a Catholic seminarian posted a blog post asserting that the Lord's Prayer contradicts the idea of salvation by faith alone because it holds that forgiveness of others is a condition for one's own forgiveness.

I am curious what thoughts others here have on this.

http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/...asses-how.html

If one has faith in Christ for salvation then failing to forgive others is not an option. They compliment, not contradict, one another.

[37818]

An old acquaintance of mine who is now a Catholic seminarian posted a blog post asserting that the Lord's Prayer contradicts the idea of salvation by faith alone because it holds that forgiveness of others is a condition for one's own forgiveness.

I am curious what thoughts others here have on this.

http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/...asses-how.html

What Jesus instructed is to be understood as under the Law as opposed to being under grace.

[footwasher]

Interestingly, no teachings of justification by faith appears in any of the writings by the early church fathers, not even in those of Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John.

So if the Reformation, which claims to return to the authentic faith of the Scriptures, concludes justification is by faith, why didn’t it appear in these writings? Were they possessing oral traditions that taught something other than Luther’s interpretation? Or did they, even so quickly after the apostles died, deviate from Scripture? And did deviation begin with them? Or with, even earlier, Polycarp?

Anyhoo, this is the present position:

Eastern Orthodox: believes the original doctrine was justification by obedience, a view present through out the writings of the ECF:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvati...ty)#cite_ref-7

Quote
Moral transformation[edit]
Main article: Moral influence theory of atonement
The moral transformation view was the predominant understanding of salvation among Christians during the first three centuries AD,[8][9][10][11][12] and continues to be held by some denominations such as the Eastern Orthodox today. In this view, Jesus saved people from sinfulness through his life and teachings, thus transforming their character to become righteous. This salvation is seen as undeserved, since God graciously sent Jesus to save people when they were unrighteous and did not in any way deserve such a favour. In the moral transformation paradigm, a person is saved from sinfulness by faithfully following the teachings of Jesus, and the example he set of how to live. Consequently, a person becomes righteous in God's sight, and can expect a positive final judgment by God. Perfection is not required, and mistakes are forgiven after repentance. In this view, Jesus' crucifixion is understood primarily as a martyrdom.[13]


Hey, that was Tercel, our old TWebbian!

RCC: believes justification is through obedience enabled by grace received only through the sacraments dispensed by the the RCC. They admit to being guilty of the wrong practice selling of indulgences, Luther’s charge against them.

Reformed: teaches justification is through belief in the fact that Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer through faith.

The latter conclusion reached at through a convoluted thought process, beginning with Erasmus’s translation of the Septuagint resulting in the Vulgate, to Melanchthon’s take on a certain verse to Luther's approval of it. How much time do we get to unpack the whole thing?

[robrecht]

... RCC: believes justification is through obedience enabled by grace received only through the sacraments dispensed by the the RCC. They admit to being guilty of the wrong practice selling of indulgences, Luther’s charge against them.

Reformed: teaches justification is through belief in the fact that Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer through faith.

The latter conclusion reached at through a convoluted thought process, beginning with Erasmus’s translation of the Septuagint resulting in the Vulgate, to Melanchthon’s take on a certain verse to Luther's approval of it. How much time do we get to unpack the whole thing?

Very interesting post, with which I largely agree, except for a couple of points. Roman Catholics do not believe that grace is ONLY available through the sacraments dispensed by the Roman Catholic Church.

And, Erasmus' translation of the Septuagint???

[footwasher]

Very interesting post, with which I largely agree, except for a couple of points. Roman Catholics do not believe that grace is ONLY available through the sacraments dispensed by the Roman Catholic Church.

And, Erasmus' translation of the Septuagint???

You are right it was Erasmus’ translation of the New Testament where at Romans 4:3 he used imputatum instead of the Vulgate's reputatum that changed the course of theological history!


creditit aut Abraham deo et imputatum est ei ad iustitiam

Serves me right for posting before checking. When I got back, the editing window had closed.

[Obsidian]

The Lord's prayer assumes that the person doing the praying is already saved. That is why it starts out with the phrase "Our Father." The reference to forgiveness is talking about God's dealings among his children who are already within the kingdom.

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

[37818]

Salvation is to obedience to grace without works. Obedience to obtain merit is disobedience.

[footwasher]

Salvation is to obedience to grace without works. Obedience to obtain merit is disobedience.

I admire the redneck sensibility, the hillbilly loyalty (Hatfield-McCoy) that pervades these discussions, and can even understand it.

Back in my home town, at a reunion, in a discussion about food(!), with a blowout barbecue roaring in the background, I had to rattle the cage of some guests, sniffing at their unbalanced food habits. Surprisingly my brother backed me up, but afterwards, afterwards, he gave me what fer.

"Don't rile the guests", he roared.
"But you backed me"! I bleated.
"That's cos you're family!" he roared back!

It's great to be loyal, even better to avoid division, but really, you want to be loyal to Scripture.

These are the instruction manuals, useful lifechanging guides, towards a favorable judgment.

[37818]

Salvation is to obedience to grace without works. Obedience to obtain merit is disobedience.

". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:4, 5.

". . . In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.


". . . to testify the gospel of the grace of God. . . ." -- Acts 20:17-27.

[Bill the Cat]

I admire the redneck sensibility, the hillbilly loyalty (Hatfield-McCoy) that pervades these discussions, and can even understand it. .

I do not admire anyone who uses those terms as anything other than affectionate...

[footwasher]

". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:4, 5.

". . . In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.


". . . to testify the gospel of the grace of God. . . ." -- Acts 20:17-27.

How is it that the Early Church Fathers do not teach salvation by faith alone, but rather, salvation by obedience to Christ's words, including the command, the inatruction, the law, to forgive?

I do not admire anyone who uses those terms as anything other than affectionate...

I assure you, these I consider great qualities, for the right situations!