Do Christians Feel A Lot Of Guilt?

[Doubting John]

When I was a Christian I felt guilty almost all of the time. I knew that it was by grace I was saved through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. I knew I could never earn salvation by my works too. Only by faith could I be completely forgiven in God's eyes.

And yet, I was reminded every time I read the Bible, prayed or attended church what I must do as a Christian in response to God's love. If I was grateful for God's free gift of grace, then I should respond and behave like I was grateful. And I did try.

But I never felt like I was praying or reading the Bible enough, even though at an early stage in my Christian life I prayed 1 hour a day, and read the Bible 1 hour a day. I never felt like I was donating enough money, or evangelizing enough, either. Then there were temptations of greed, lust, laziness, and worldliness which always plagued me. I even had some people on my hate list, whom I just couldn't stand, and I just couldn't forgive.

I tried. I tried to give myself over to the power of the Spirit to take control of my life. I prayed for the power to live a spirit-fulled life of righteousness, knowing full well even as a Christian I could never be perfect--that was something to await in heaven.

But I always felt guilty, at least nearly 4 or 5 times a day. I prayed for forgiveness and felt clean again, of course. But then I started to feel guilty that I didn't spend that much time in prayer praying for the real needs of the world.

Now I am pretty much guilt free, and I'm lovin' it--freedom!

But what about you? How do you reconcile the grace-guilt-grace trip as a Christian?

[!Fluffy!]

When I was a Christian I felt guilty almost all of the time. I knew that it was by grace I was saved through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. I knew I could never earn salvation by my works too. Only by faith could I be completely forgiven in God's eyes.

And yet, I was reminded every time I read the Bible, prayed or attended church what I must do as a Christian in response to God's love. If I was grateful for God's free gift of grace, then I should respond and behave like I was grateful. And I did try.

But I never felt like I was praying or reading the Bible enough, even though at an early stage in my Christian life I prayed 1 hour a day, and read the Bible 1 hour a day. I never felt like I was donating enough money, or evangelizing enough, either. Then there were temptations of greed, lust, laziness, and worldliness which always plagued me. I even had some people on my hate list, whom I just couldn't stand, and I just couldn't forgive.

I tried. I tried to give myself over to the power of the Spirit to take control of my life. I prayed for the power to live a spirit-fulled life of righteousness, knowing full well even as a Christian I could never be perfect--that was something to await in heaven.

But I always felt guilty, at least nearly 4 or 5 times a day. I prayed for forgiveness and felt clean again, of course. But then I started to feel guilty that I didn't spend that much time in prayer praying for the real needs of the world.

Now I am pretty much guilt free, and I'm lovin' it--freedom!

But what about you? How do you reconcile the grace-guilt-grace trip as a Christian?


Do Christians Feel A Lot Of Guilt?

Only when I think about it.

:wink:

Of course before I was a Christian, there were times when I felt guilty about not feeling guilty.

Serious post to follow....thanks for starting this thread BTW.

[!Fluffy!]

When I was a Christian I felt guilty almost all of the time. I knew that it was by grace I was saved through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. I knew I could never earn salvation by my works too. Only by faith could I be completely forgiven in God's eyes.

Yes.
And yet, I was reminded every time I read the Bible, prayed or attended church what I must do as a Christian in response to God's love. If I was grateful for God's free gift of grace, then I should respond and behave like I was grateful. And I did try.
I know the feeling... and sorry, but in the end it is all a load of carp foisted off by legions of demons and zipperheads and does nothing but drive people insane or away from the church.

But I never felt like I was praying or reading the Bible enough, even though at an early stage in my Christian life I prayed 1 hour a day, and read the Bible 1 hour a day. I never felt like I was donating enough money, or evangelizing enough, either. Then there were temptations of greed, lust, laziness, and worldliness which always plagued me. I even had some people on my hate list, whom I just couldn't stand, and I just couldn't forgive.
This strikes a note in every honest soul. Charles Stanley says when he first started counseling, he was surprised to find how many were having problems regarding forgiveness. Now many years later he said he would estimate 90% of the problems he sees have unforgiveness at the root of the problem. This includes not being able to forgive God. It is the hardest "work" of all, and the most gratifying when you come out the other side. A heavy load is lifted and it is intensely freeing, if you choose to take the challenge. Actually I found that once I was able to truly forgive one person who had hurt me the most, the rest came easy. Now it is no problem for me at all. I forgive instantly and forever. But it took two years to get there and I was (supernaturally?) determined to do it.

I tried. I tried to give myself over to the power of the Spirit to take control of my life. I prayed for the power to live a spirit-fulled life of righteousness, knowing full well even as a Christian I could never be perfect--that was something to await in heaven.
And I understand completely. It is so hard to reconcile the idea of imperfection and righteousness, especially if people are giving you the idea you have to be perfect. But salvation is an event - sanctification is a process. So we are works in progress as long as we are alive on this earth. Depending on the individual, that progress might be made in fits and starts, it might mean taking 3 steps forward and one back. Christ told us he came here for sinners -- that's me. He said if you are healthy, you don't need a doctor. I just think that the closer you get to the light, the more imperfections you see, and the more you realize your need for Him.

But I always felt guilty, at least nearly 4 or 5 times a day. I prayed for forgiveness and felt clean again, of course. But then I started to feel guilty that I didn't spend that much time in prayer praying for the real needs of the world.

Satan did his job well then. He stands as the Accuser of the Saints, that's his job, and a lot of churches are used by him as helpers to accomplish the ultimate goal: to remove believers from the fold.

Now I am pretty much guilt free, and I'm lovin' it--freedom!

Me too! (Although I have my moments, they are fleeting). Once I realized what was going on with the guilt, I came to this conclusion: I will allow no church, person, or doctrine to try and convince me
a. I'm not worthy
b. I'm not saved
c. I should feel guilty
d. I don't have the Holy Spirit
e. I'm going to hell

But what about you? How do you reconcile the grace-guilt-grace trip as a Christian?

Let me put it this way. I gave up the struggle. I freely admit my shortcomings to believers and unbelievers alike. Let people point fingers at me all day long and call me what they will: Guilt does not own me, God does. Since he's the Creator, author and finisher of my faith, I rest and know that He is God.

Here's a Bic lighter sitting on my table. If it stood up and said, "I know I'm supposed to be a cigarette lighter, but...I feel like maybe I'm just a wad of melted plastic. I'm just laying here on the table, useless." I would say: "Look dummy. I don't care what you feel like. I bought you because you're a lighter, Bic created you to be a lighter, and that's what you are. Period. Now tell me again: what are you?"
"Um, a lighter?" "Good." Then I flick it and it lights my candle and I'm happy.

Christ bought me. He paid a dear price. He put a label on me, and He uses me to His glory in His way in His timing. My prayer is always "use me in my brokenness, Lord". He knows who I am better than I do. He made me. It may seem to me at times I am not "being" a Christian. But he says I belong to Him and I believe Him. Maybe I'm delusional, but I don't feel guilty for stuff anymore, except on the rare occasions when I intentionally do something bad (and it's never something I planned, usually done in a moment of anger, and these moments are fewer and farther between). My trust in Him is unfailing. I truly believe that no matter what befalls me, He is with me. I may not always be faithful and He knows that but He is always faithful.

[Jawa Man]

Actually I think guilt is a major thing in Christianity. I have been in times where I am filled with guilt and don't even know over what. However at some point it seems we find that guilt comes because we are not relating to God like we should. We fill ourselves up with religious concepts and great ideas to do the Christian thing in order to squash the guilt, yet we don't go after the true God and what He really wants from us.

Did you see a common pattern in your Christian life when you experienced guilt? From what you said the common theme is that you are not doing enough; this indicates that you realized you were not in the right with God. We need targets to know where this "unrightness" comes from, and so we figure it's that we must not have read enough or prayed enough or done enough good works. So we think, "God must not be pleased with this," and begin asking God to forgive us for sins that we invented in our minds in order to restore us to being in the right. However, by doing this we invent another god in our minds, a god that we can understand (and so place ourselves in his right). We "know" what he must be feeling about our "sins!" And so we begin serving this god who gives us a reason as to why we are not in the right with him. However the real God, who knows the real reason, is ignored.

This shows that we either don't have a firm enough belief in God to think that He would answer us, or that we are unwilling to listen because we really are in love with our own lives too much and would be uncomfortable with a big change. Jesus came to save, but only those who were willing to accept His message. Part of His message was, "Take up your cross and follow Me," and "Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it." This all shows that those who experience a lot of guilt have ceased serving the real God at some point in order to have to do lesser things to get into the right.

There are obviously different degrees of this idolatry, but it centers on one key thing. Our minds subconsciously make these idols because our inner being does not want to really follow God, but wants what will make it feel good. Ironically the thing that we think will make us feel good, which is following an idol, actually makes us more miserable, because we receive a never-ending thirst for peace with God that cannot end until the idol is gone and we reconcile ourselves with Him.

[Cynic Sage]

When I was a Christian I felt guilty almost all of the time. I knew that it was by grace I was saved through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. I knew I could never earn salvation by my works too. Only by faith could I be completely forgiven in God's eyes.

And yet, I was reminded every time I read the Bible, prayed or attended church what I must do as a Christian in response to God's love. If I was grateful for God's free gift of grace, then I should respond and behave like I was grateful. And I did try.

But I never felt like I was praying or reading the Bible enough, even though at an early stage in my Christian life I prayed 1 hour a day, and read the Bible 1 hour a day. I never felt like I was donating enough money, or evangelizing enough, either. Then there were temptations of greed, lust, laziness, and worldliness which always plagued me. I even had some people on my hate list, whom I just couldn't stand, and I just couldn't forgive.

I tried. I tried to give myself over to the power of the Spirit to take control of my life. I prayed for the power to live a spirit-fulled life of righteousness, knowing full well even as a Christian I could never be perfect--that was something to await in heaven.

But I always felt guilty, at least nearly 4 or 5 times a day. I prayed for forgiveness and felt clean again, of course. But then I started to feel guilty that I didn't spend that much time in prayer praying for the real needs of the world.

Now I am pretty much guilt free, and I'm lovin' it--freedom!

But what about you? How do you reconcile the grace-guilt-grace trip as a Christian?

Not really, but then again, I was diagnosed as an Autistic-Psychopath as a child.

You know DJ, from reading your posts, I get the impression that even though you are no longer Xtian, you are still a preacher.

Old DJ: "Accept Jesus and feelings of guilt would be washed away."

New DJ: "Reject religion and feelings of guilt would be washed away."

[mentored1]

When I was a Christian I felt guilty almost all of the time. I knew that it was by grace I was saved through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. I knew I could never earn salvation by my works too. Only by faith could I be completely forgiven in God's eyes.

As a Christian I also pondered that often... I remember reading and re-reading and trying to grasp the concept that to preach just the cross to someone was foolish without first indentifying that they had offended God: like offering medicine to someone who wasn't sick... First I had to help them understand they were sick in a way that could not be experienced by the senses or psyche... It was spiritual... a nature inherited in bygone ages by a man they never knew and that their nature could not be escaped - everyone will sin, offend God, and die in hell... that's staggering to hear and to preach... I felt horrible telling people that but I felt just as horrible thinking that I might be responsible for not telling them...

I've wondered if the incredible mechanisms and counter-weights of guilt / responsibility and so forth are not carefully crafted to trap the human soul... It works well... but I should mention I haven't the foggiest clue if any of that is true or not... but it was enough to be perplexed and hence doubt.


But I never felt like I was praying or reading the Bible enough, even though at an early stage in my Christian life I prayed 1 hour a day, and read the Bible 1 hour a day. I never felt like I was donating enough money, or evangelizing enough, either.

Indeed it can seem as though in trying to be 'Christ-like' the mortal is asked to be the immortal while still bound in the finite world. How can you fill the measure of Christ who is - by Biblical standard - equal with God? Again this may not be the case but it is enough to perplex...


But what about you? How do you reconcile the grace-guilt-grace trip as a Christian?

Don't know if I'm loving it... I indeed do truly doubt even the nature of reality... Isn't just enjoying it all without thought hedonism? Nonetheless, I cannot confirm nor deny the spiritual world or physical world so it's sort of persistent perplexity....

But thanks for asking! :wink:

[Meh_Gerbil]

No.

I see prolonged feelings of guilt as a sin -- as either a lack of faith (which I feel guiltly for)(1) or a lack of initiative to change.

'Guilt' for me is increasingly becoming and opportunity to thank G_d for forgiveness and an opportunity to change my ways. I refuse to let the deval push me around with this and move to keep turning guilt into victory.

Slap guilt onto me and I'll confront my pride and repent - I win.
Slap guilt onto me and I'll praise G_d for forgiveness - I win.
Slap guilt onto me and I'll forge an opportunity to change - I win.

Sitting around mulling over vague feelings of badness is nothing but loss.
That is no longer for me.
It has nothing to do with Christ.









--------------------
NOTES:
1: Joke

[Doubting John]

WoW!

Some superior responses! Thanks! I guess you understood from my post that I wasn't trying to work my way into heaven.


Chick YOU ARE ON FIRE!

Once I realized what was going on with the guilt, I came to this conclusion: I will allow no church, person, or doctrine to try and convince me
a. I'm not worthy
b. I'm not saved
c. I should feel guilty
d. I don't have the Holy Spirit
e. I'm going to hell

JawaMan:

Part of His message was, "Take up your cross and follow Me," and "Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it." This all shows that those who experience a lot of guilt have ceased serving the real God at some point in order to have to do lesser things to get into the right.

Hmmm. That message is indeed guilt producing. Those who experience a lot of guilt may very well be people who are further down the road than you. The closer I got to God the more guilt I felt because I could see my sin clearer. The farther away from God you are the less you feel guilty, I believe.

Johnny EC:


You know DJ, from reading your posts, I get the impression that even though you are no longer Xtian, you are still a preacher.

Old DJ: "Accept Jesus and feelings of guilt would be washed away."

New DJ: "Reject religion and feelings of guilt would be washed away."

Once a preacher always a preacher, I guess. But I'm not saying the one should reject Christianity in order to live a life with less guilt. I'm just saying that this is the result when one does. And I'm finding that I still am as good to people as I ever was as a Christian too, but without the specific kinds of Christian guilt. And I no longer feel guilty for my thoughts either, just my actions.

mentored1:

I felt horrible telling people that but I felt just as horrible thinking that I might be responsible for not telling them...

Me too!


Mad Gerbil:
Your initial and final answer to this thread is:

No.

Congratulations! That's something I could never say.

Oh, and by the way, how often do you look at pornography on the web? How does that make you feel?

Come on and be real with us.

[betzerg]

When I was a Christian I felt guilty almost all of the time. I knew that it was by grace I was saved through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. I knew I could never earn salvation by my works too. Only by faith could I be completely forgiven in God's eyes.

And yet, I was reminded every time I read the Bible, prayed or attended church what I must do as a Christian in response to God's love. If I was grateful for God's free gift of grace, then I should respond and behave like I was grateful. And I did try.

But I never felt like I was praying or reading the Bible enough, even though at an early stage in my Christian life I prayed 1 hour a day, and read the Bible 1 hour a day. I never felt like I was donating enough money, or evangelizing enough, either. Then there were temptations of greed, lust, laziness, and worldliness which always plagued me. I even had some people on my hate list, whom I just couldn't stand, and I just couldn't forgive.

I tried. I tried to give myself over to the power of the Spirit to take control of my life. I prayed for the power to live a spirit-fulled life of righteousness, knowing full well even as a Christian I could never be perfect--that was something to await in heaven.

But I always felt guilty, at least nearly 4 or 5 times a day. I prayed for forgiveness and felt clean again, of course. But then I started to feel guilty that I didn't spend that much time in prayer praying for the real needs of the world.

Now I am pretty much guilt free, and I'm lovin' it--freedom!

But what about you? How do you reconcile the grace-guilt-grace trip as a Christian?

I think you must be in a form of denial to say you are "guilt-free'. Because all of us have expectations from others and ourselves about life. Late to work, no guilt...hmmm...bad thing. Ignore your kids...no guilt...bad thing. Guilt can be very very good. It makes us aware of the yetzer hora and the yetzer tov at work in all of us. It inspires us to make HIGHER decisions than just the common and easy ones that present themselves daily.

To feel guilt for transgressing the laws of G-d is a good thing. To feel guilt for not being "perfect"...is a very arrogant thing. YOu expect yourself to be perfect..and so you expect others to be perfect...and if they aren't..you really don't like them (our yourself) much. This is the problem with "obsessive" guilt.

In judaism it is a sin to NOT enjoy the gift of life that G-d has given to you. Feeling guilt constantly because you "didn't read the bible".. only detracts from our joy in reading scripture. Feeling guilt for not praying enough...actually makes us not pray as much...because we create a barrier between ourselves and G-d and in a sense BLAME him for our bad feelings.

So...yes I feel guilty if I disobey scripture...it's a good thing. And yes..I feel guilt at times for not being perfect..but I repent (paradoxiacally), because whom am I that I think I should do everything perfectly... and thank HaShem for the good things He's given to me to enjoy. Prayer and scripture, for example.

Our rabbi tells us this:

Our journey towards G-d is a climb...an assent..to what is holy. The torah is the mountain that we climb. IF we fall...we don't curse G-d. We don't curse the Torah. WE don't curse ourselves. WE just get back up and begin climbing the mountain again. This is LIFE! This is what it means to be a living, experiencing HUMAN...and if we despise our own humanity..we will also despise our creator.

Shalom,

BETZER

[Doubting John]

Betzer:

You're right, no one lives without some guilt.

Only a sociopath lives a completely guilt-free life.

So what I meant is this:

I'm living without the specific kinds of Christian guilt spelled out in my first post. And I no longer feel guilty for my thoughts either, just my actions.

But that is a lot of guilt off of my back! Compared to my Christian life it's almost like I am now guilt-free.

But you're correct.

[Jawa Man]

Hmmm. That message is indeed guilt producing. Those who experience a lot of guilt may very well be people who are further down the road than you. The closer I got to God the more guilt I felt because I could see my sin clearer. The farther away from God you are the less you feel guilty, I believe.
If it's guilt that leads to change, it's one thing. Guilt that remains and comes a lot shows how far one is from God. You said, "The closer I got to God the more guilt I felt because I could see my sin clearer." However, as the Bible says (and so is related to the spiritual experience), love covers an abundance of sin. Where there is love, there is no guilt. So the person who truly loves God would not live in constant observance of it.

By the way, I am not denying people futher along than me can struggle with it. I am also not denying that we as people set up an abundance of things, other than guilt, which sidetrack us from God. I'm not claiming I love God fully and so I don't experience guilt. However I know to dwell on guilt is to mean that I am not yielding to God, and knowing this helps me when it comes.

[Meh_Gerbil]

Oh, and by the way, how often do you look at pornography on the web? How does that make you feel?

Come on and be real with us.

You've managed to ask about a sin with which I've never had a problem.

I won't answer questions about other potential sin in my life because if you keep guessing you'll hit one (or a dozen) eventually.

:blush:

[Meh_Gerbil]

One must be aware of the following:

1: Not feeling guilty doesn't mean one isn't guilty.
2: Feeling guilty doesn't mean one is guilty.

In short, the feeling has little to do with the reality.

[jpholding]

But what about you? How do you reconcile the grace-guilt-grace trip as a Christian?

Christians never felt "guilt" until recent history because the Biblical world was an honor and shame based society.

The grace-guilt-grace trip is a phenomenon of modern individualism and can be laughed off as such.

No, DJ, before you say it -- people in honor-based societies are not "sociopaths". They simply have other means to control behavior than we do.

Remember once again that your world is not all that exists.

[FlimFlamboyant]

John,
There are two things in your post that I really want to draw your attention to, because it shows a common contradiction in the thinking of what I suspect are most believers (or supposed "ex-believers" if you insist).

When I was a Christian I felt guilty almost all of the time.
This is also quite common, but the solution is simple (though it can be difficult). Oddly enough, you supplied the solution in rest of the paragraph, but I don't think you realize it:

I knew that it was by grace I was saved through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. I knew I could never earn salvation by my works too. Only by faith could I be completely forgiven in God's eyes.
It's one thing to have "head-knowledge" of the fact that we are saved by grace through faith, and that works haven't a thing to do with it. It's quite another thing to really BELIEVE it, however, and that's where the old guilt-trip comes in. Now here comes the contradiction I mentioned. Yes, you're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, but then you go on to say:

And yet, I was reminded every time I read the Bible, prayed or attended church what I must do as a Christian in response to God's love. If I was grateful for God's free gift of grace, then I should respond and behave like I was grateful. And I did try.
Pow! There it is. Notice for a moment what I underlined and let's read on:

But I never felt like I was praying or reading the Bible enough, even though at an early stage in my Christian life I prayed 1 hour a day, and read the Bible 1 hour a day. I never felt like I was donating enough money, or evangelizing enough, either. Then there were temptations of greed, lust, laziness, and worldliness which always plagued me. I even had some people on my hate list, whom I just couldn't stand, and I just couldn't forgive.
When you failed (and we all do), where did you place your emphasis when it came to correcting it? Here's a hint; just count the number of times the word "I" appears in the above paragraph. I count 8. That's a lot.

I tried.
No doubt you did. But at the same time, this was your downfall and the reason you felt so guilty. When it comes to combatting sin in our lives, as believers, we have two options. One, we can try to improve our performance. It's a noble cause, but at the same time self-defeating. Why?:

(Rom 7:11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

(1Co 15:56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
If you set out to improve your performance by attempting to adhere to a system of commandments (I must pray more, I must forgive more, etc., etc.) guess what sin is going to do with that? It's going to take those very commandments and beat you over the head with them. In essence, by taking this approach, you're giving sin the very ammunition it needs to defeat you. So what's the solution?:

(Col 2:6) As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

How did we receive him?:

(Col 2:7) Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

We received him by grace through faith, did we not? Therefore, how should we walk? By faith, and not by the works of the law, whether it be the law of Moses, or any other! But how can this help you combat sin, you might wonder?:

(Gal 5:16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

"Ok, fine, how do I do THAT?". Understand that you can't "walk" in something that is spiritual by attempting to fulfil something that is carnal (law). To walk in faith IS to walk "in the Spirit", and you're doing that, guess what happens AUTOMATICALLY? You won't fulfil the lust of the flesh, that's what. Faith is simply a mindset; a trusting relationship with our savior.

(Phi 4:8,9) Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

You see, the battle is not waged in the flesh by attempting to maintain a righteous way of life according to some carnal commandments. The real war takes place in the mind. Every evil thought, along with every righteous thought, begins there. If you "set your affection on things above", and don't fret over your failures here on earth, guess what will happen as a result? For one, you will not "fulfil the lusts of the flesh", because you're not thinking about those things. Secondly, as Paul writes, "the God of peace shall be with you". No more guilt!

But I always felt guilty, at least nearly 4 or 5 times a day. I prayed for forgiveness and felt clean again, of course.
On who's behalf were you asking forgiveness? Consider what Paul writes in Romans 7:

(Rom 7:16-18) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Understand that when you look in the mirror and wonder how God could possibly love someone who fails him so often, you aren't really looking at yourself at all!

(Rom 7:22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

The moment we believe, that old inward man is "crucified with Christ", put to death and replaced by the one new man that is "created in righteousness and true holiness". But when Paul looks in the mirror, so to speak, what does he see?:

(Rom 7:23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

He sees the corruption of sin in his flesh. The good news for us who believe however, is this:

(2Co 5:16,17) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And thus Paul reveals our true identity. We aren't that disgusting sin-corrupted bag of flesh that does nothing but fail us (and God) at all! We are a new SPIRITUAL creature living inside this body of sin.

(Rom 7:24,25) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

God isn't interested in these fleshly bodies at all. The sin which corrupts them is irrelevant. We are "new creatures" in Christ and will one day shed these bodies of death.

But then I started to feel guilty that I didn't spend that much time in prayer praying for the real needs of the world.
We're all human beings, and I can guarantee you that even the most righteous-looking guy on earth has exactly the problems that you describe. You know what? IT... IS ... OKAY! Seriously. Just look at this:

(Rom 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Now think about it. If Christ was willing to die for us while we were yet sinners, just imagine what he's willing to do for us now that we aren't sinners any longer in the inward man! So relax, God understands better than anyone that we live in a fallen body and struggle with these issues as a result. If you placed your trust in the finished work of Christ, just take a deep breath and realize that when you fail, "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". It's all about understanding our identity in Christ. As long as we keep that fact fresh in our minds, the guilt disappears.

[Cynic Sage]

Christians never felt "guilt" until recent history because the Biblical world was an honor and shame based society.

The grace-guilt-grace trip is a phenomenon of modern individualism and can be laughed off as such.

No, DJ, before you say it -- people in honor-based societies are not "sociopaths". They simply have other means to control behavior than we do.

Remember once again that your world is not all that exists.

Hey DJ, I found some an article that can help you understand this:

http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htm

Hupe that helps.:wink:

[Doubting John]

Okay Johnny EC and JP,

The article was good, and interesting. A shame culture is one where what others think of me is more important ("I have shamed my parents"). A guilt culture is one where what I think of myself is more important ("I did wrong.").

I get it, I think.

But however you describe it, there are associated bad feelings that go with each wrong action. Whether I say "I embarrassed my family, my church and my God," or "I embarrassed myself in front of my family, my church or my God." The feelings are the same.

And as the article said:

The down-side to a shame culture is the licence it appears to give to engage in secret wrong-doing.

And yet the very seeds for individualism were sown in the gospels with Jesus himself. "Whosover will, may come." Salvation in Jesus was depicted as setting a person against their family, because in the end we all stand before the throne of God individually.

How one can laugh all of this off is a bit strange to me.

Mad Gerbil:


1: Not feeling guilty doesn't mean one isn't guilty.
2: Feeling guilty doesn't mean one is guilty.

In short, the feeling has little to do with the reality

True. But are you saying that I shouldn't feel guilty (or shame) when I do something wrong, just because I'm declared guiltless by God? Doesn't Paul shame people in his Epistles for not acting consistent with their faith (specifically 1 & 2 Corinthians)? And should I not try to show my gratitude for God's free gift of grace with my behavior, and feel badly if I let him down? The major fault of the Christian is that he or she is guilty of the blood of all the unbelievers in the world. It's not God's fault, so it must be Christians' fault--for not praying, giving money, and going to the mission field. If that doesn't hurt your consciences, then something is wrong in paradise.

Jesus: "The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest." King James Version. (Mt 9:37-38).

Flimflamboyant:

Here's Paul again (Romans 7):

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am aof flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing bwhat I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with athe Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, ano longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my aflesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, aI am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then athe principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in athe inner man,
23 but I see aa different law in 1the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of cthe law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? [New American Standard Bible]

Of course, Paul's answer to this problem was Jesus.

But any good commentator on Paul's Epistle to Rome will tell you that Paul was done discussing salvation at the end of chapter 5. Now he's dealing with specific problems as a result of being saved.

Chapter 6 dealt with whether we should continue to sin knowing we are saved.

According to the Bible Knowledge Commentary chapter 7 deals with the:

Conflict in sanctification (chap. 7).

It is one thing for a believer to understand that his identification with Jesus Christ means that he has died to sin (6:2) and to count or reckon that to be true (6:11). But it is something else for him to deal with the sin nature that remains within and its efforts to express itself in his thoughts and actions. This is the internal conflict in the area of sanctification that every believer faces.

So it's fairly clear (at least to me) that Paul was speaking of the same feelings I was speaking of. That is, this is how he has felt as a Christian, and the answer is to continually fall back on Christ. It is something Paul struggled with, just like me, and you, and you, and you.

How do you like it when a skeptic correctly informs you about the Bible?

[Shadow Phoenix]

Well I just found this thread and it seems like quite a remarkable one so I'll throw in my own two cents worth, though you can determine if my thoughts are really worth that much or not. Doesn't matter. I'm giving them away for free.

Anyhow, I will agree with JP that this is a modern phonemenon, but I also doubt that we will likely reverse the clock and go to time before the enlightenment for instance. We are very individualistic creatures today. I'm suddenly reminded of the Garfield movie with the slogan "It's all about me."

Now I will say I wrestle with guilt sometimes probably because I'm different from other people. I do know I have struggles in my life and do some things that are wrong and I am working on them. I also know that often times, problems had for years are quite unlikely to suddenly vanish overnight.

I used to look at how much I read the Bible and how much I prayed, but then I found nothing in Scripture with such a command. In fact, I'm thankful it's not there because I know that as we are today, we would make more of a ritual out of it, and that's my main fear. Our Christianity today has not become so much a lifestyle as it has a ritual.

In fact, I make it a point to take time off to do non-religious activities. I'm just now getting over a sickness but during that time, I spent very little time reading books, as when one has a headache and is in utter pain, one doesn't want to be pondering on deep ideas. Instead, I found myself playing Dragon Warrior 1 and 2 on my GBA and playing Blitzball in Final Fantasy X. However, I don't see God drawing his sword ready to smite me for such an action.

But even when not sick, I will try to do such things. I think it's important to enjoy some things not for religious enjoyment but just because they are enjoyable. If you were on a date with someone for instance, would you want to turn them into a religious experience? Not at all. You date to marry a person and not to learn about theology. Will you learn about theology? I'd say if you're observant, you will. However, that is not why you do it.

Besides, if we looked at such things as time, we'd have to say that work and sleep are the most important things to us as we spend most of our lives doing those things. Yet how many people would really say that work and sleep are the most important things in their life?

Now when we do things that are sinful, it is right that we should feel what we call guilt. Mad Gerbil is right. The feelings don't reflect reality but they could point to a truth. If I have a pain on my body, it could reflect a physical problem. Why not a pain of the soul as well?

However, when we meet these, this is where it gets frightening. We have only two options. We can either change ourselves, or we can change the judge. Now changing ourselves is quite hard for us moderns for we have to do something quite dreadful to us. We have to admit that we were wrong. GASP!

Essentially, if we're biblical, we can't change the judge. God is the one who changes not. However, we could try to lesser him, and I do believe some atheists like Sartre did just that. Sartre started off burning a rug and then felt guilt and decided that nay God who would try to destroy a child's guilt like that couldn't be real. Indeed, if there is no judge, there can be no guilt. The person who truly lives out the lifestyle of moral relativism the best is the sociopath. This seems another great reason to believe in objective moral values.

However, let's remember that our view of the judge could be wrong. I could not tell the place as it's been awhile since I've heard the story, but there is a chaplain who had students come to him and say they don't believe in God. He'd sit them down and say "Tell me about this God you don't believe in. I probably don't believe in him either."

In fact, too often, we seem to focus on God's wrath rather than on his mercy. Isaiah 28 calls judgment God's alien task simply because it is not something that would have to be done if there was no one else to judge. Yet, there was love, before there was someone else to judge in the Trinity.

I mention this because I see so many complaining about the atrocities they claim to see in the OT. They never stop to look at the gracious side in the OT. It is as if God has to be evil because he takes so many lives. Well who's to say he's wrong to do so? If you were God and you knew that taking a life could do more good than leaving it, would that not be an option?

Yet if God is so horrid, why did he always send prophets and messengers to warn people? A truly capricious God would have destroyed with no warning whatsoever and no reason whatsoever. In fact, in the OT, we see God wooing people to come to him. He is the bridegroom begging for the bread. As Deuteronomy 32:10 could be saying, we are the little maiden of his eye. The picture is of getting so close to someone that their reflection shows in your eyes.

And in the NT, we see the bridegroom coming personally. If anyone is a romantic, it is God. He is the author of the true love story. All romance novels today pale darkly in comparison to that of Scripture. We see the God who comes and dies for a people who don't even love him to show that he loves them. Hasn't he given enough evidence already? I would say so, but he gave more. He took our sin on himself, so we would not have to face it.

Which brings us to how I deal with it. I try to remember that I am a being trapped in time. My feelings and moods fluctuate. I cannot base anything purely on subjective experience. Experience has a great role to play indeed, but it is not the deciding factor. I have never experienced my personal death, but I have no doubt that unless the Second Coming happens, it will happen.

Yet God is outside of time. God doesn't just see me where I'm at right now. He sees the finished product. Ephesians 2 says that we are already seated within the heavenlies. Why would it say that? Because it's true! God sees our finished product! He doesn't cause it to happen, but he knows that it will happen.

The ultimate answer is to realize that I am a fallable human being. I do lack trust in God many times and I simply say that's because I do not fully see him as he is. I'd say all our sin stems from that even. We do not see God as he is. In fact, a Christian acts like an atheist when he sins as he sets himself up to be God over God.

And yet in all of that, there is still love for us. Do I wrestle and struggle? Of course, and I have my few faithful friends who I turn to who know my struggles and help me. I have a counselor on a regular basis and I think it's a wonderful thing more Christians should have. I know many say "It's just me and Jesus." Nonsense. Even Jesus asked his friends to pray for him. God did not create you to be a Lone Ranger. Don't be one.

[FlimFlamboyant]

Of course, Paul's answer to this problem was Jesus.

But any good commentator on Paul's Epistle to Rome will tell you that Paul was done discussing salvation at the end of chapter 5. Now he's dealing with specific problems as a result of being saved.
To which I agree completely. I don't see how that negates anything that I said.

Chapter 6 dealt with whether we should continue to sin knowing we are saved.
It's not quite that simple. Chapter 6 starts off by telling us who we really are now that we are saved, then the remainder of the chapter goes on to tell us how we should behave in our flesh in light of who we already are in the inward man.

So it's fairly clear (at least to me) that Paul was speaking of the same feelings I was speaking of.
And how he escaped them. He did so by recognizing his true identity in Christ, and that when he fails, it is "no longer I, but sin that dwells in me (his flesh)".

That is, this is how he has felt as a Christian, and the answer is to continually fall back on Christ. It is something Paul struggled with, just like me, and you, and you, and you.
What do you mean by "fall back" on Christ? Asking forgiveness for something that you (the inward man) didn't do? Nonsense. It's all about having a proper understanding of who we really are. It's evident that you never actually understood that. It's a shame, but that's how most churches are any more. If indeed you have been saved, it's a shame you never came to understand the liberty that you have in Christ; to understand that you have no reason to feel guilty whatsoever.

[Doubting John]

ApologiaNick:

Yours was a very thoughtful response.


However, when we meet these, this is where it gets frightening. We have only two options. We can either change ourselves, or we can change the judge.

Essentially, if we're biblical, we can't change the judge. God is the one who changes not. However, we could try to lesser him, and I do believe some atheists like Sartre did just that. Indeed, if there is no judge, there can be no guilt. The person who truly lives out the lifestyle of moral relativism the best is the sociopath. This seems another great reason to believe in objective moral values.

However, let's remember that our view of the judge could be wrong. I could not tell the place as it's been awhile since I've heard the story, but there is a chaplain who had students come to him and say they don't believe in God. He'd sit them down and say "Tell me about this God you don't believe in. I probably don't believe in him either."

"Change ourselves or change the judge."

I did not purposely set out to change the judge. It just followed from my change of theology, but it is so liberating refreshing to me I wish you knew this feeling.


The person who truly lives out the lifestyle of moral relativism the best is the sociopath. This seems another great reason to believe in objective moral values.

I am not a relativist, although I feel the force of those arguments like never before as a philosophy instructor. One philosophy instructor I know said that relativism "cannot be refuted." He said that just because we might all agree that we chould never torture an innocent person, this doesn't mean that such a view can be defended logically. But I digress, and if we want to discuss relativism there are probably other threads to do that.

[jpholding]

But however you describe it, there are associated bad feelings that go with each wrong action. Whether I say "I embarrassed my family, my church and my God," or "I embarrassed myself in front of my family, my church or my God." The feelings are the same.

Your point being, what?

Where a shame culture is concerned, at least there are vectors outside of you who can confirm or deny that you did wrong. And thus there is no internal struggle, which was the whole point of your OP.

And yet the very seeds for individualism were sown in the gospels with Jesus himself. "Whosover will, may come."

That is a statement that shows you haven't got any grasp on individualism and collectivism. Collectivists do not fail to see themselves as individuals who can make decisions; they subjugate, rather, themselves to the will of the greater good. There is nothing here that is uniquely individulistic.

How one can laugh all of this off is a bit strange to me.

Not surprising, since you don't do homework at all. For example, you said after a reading of Romans 7:

How do you like it when a skeptic correctly informs you about the Bible?

Sorry, but you're the one who needs to be correctly informed. You're reading Romans 7 as though Paul were describing his own present experience...nope! What Paul is actually doing here is engaging in a typical Greco-Roman rhetorical practice (also found in Jewish literature, including the Qumran Psalms) in which the personal "I" and the present tense is used as a literary convention. Where the personal "I" is combined with the present tense, the author is utilizing a practice called "speech in character" to represent a universal experience. Here, Paul is bringing out the universal experience of those who do not know Christ (and that did include him, at one time) and their struggle with moral law and sin. He is not giving a biographical account of his present experience.

Nice try, but as usual you're out of touch with the scholarship where it hurts you most.

[Shadow Phoenix]

ApologiaNick:

Yours was a very thoughtful response.




"Change ourselves or change the judge."

I did not purposely set out to change the judge. It just followed from my change of theology, but it is so liberating refreshing to me I wish you knew this feeling.

But you did change the judge. Why not yourself? Is it not more likely that if God exists, which I think you've admitted something has to exist beyond nature, that whatever it is is probably a lot smarter and more powerful than we are?

As for a feeling, I wish I knew several feelings, but it is not right that I know so now. Furthermore, I have a problem with Christians who seem to get down in the dumps from time to time, which we all do, and feel like they have to regain that happy feeling. I'm sorry, but are they chasing after Christ or chasing after a feeling?

And again, feelings can lie. You feel guilt-free. What does that prove? One thing. It proves that you feel guilt-free. Take for instance the child that goes to bed at night and fears that there's a monster in the closet. What does that prove? It proves that the child fears there's a monster in the closet. The answer can only be given by examining the closet and not the child.

Now imagine the scenario. A court case takes place and the judge calls the defendant up and says "You are accused of such and such. How do you feel?" The defendant says "I feel innocent." What would any of us think of a judge who brought down the gavel and said "Case dismissed!" The criminal could be lying or deceiving himself.

G.K. Chesterton put it this way. The Christian life has often been described as tried and wanting. In reality, it's been described as difficult, and left untried.



I am not a relativist, although I feel the force of those arguments like never before as a philosophy instructor. One philosophy instructor I know said that relativism "cannot be refuted." He said that just because we might all agree that we chould never torture an innocent person, this doesn't mean that such a view can be defended logically. But I digress, and if we want to discuss relativism there are probably other threads to do that.

One test for a worldview though is if it can be lived out consistently. I have never heard of a relativist that can live out a worldview consistently.

You've probably heard the story, but a philosophy professor once asked his students to write a term paper on any topic they chose in philosophy. One student wrote his on morality to argue that everything is relative, stuck it in a blue folder, and turned it in.

When the grades came back, the student was infuriated. He received an F and the teacher had wrote, "I don't like blue folders." The student went up to complain about how wrong what happened was an unfair and injust. The professor then pointed out that if he had followed his paper consistently, he had nothing to complain about.

So what would the world be like if everyone lived out relativism? No police for instance. Rampant crime. If you had a daughter for instance, what's to keep her from being raped every day? Could you really trust putting your money in a bank? What would traffic be like with no rules and stop signs being "Suggestions?"

[jpholding]

When I was an American I felt guilty almost all of the time. I knew that it was by citizenship I was granted benefits through the government's administration. I knew I could never earn those benefits by my actions too. Only by loyal citizenship could I be completely a patriot in my country's eyes.

And yet, I was reminded every time I read the Constitution, voted or attended a fireworks show on the 4th what I must do as a American in response to our nation's providing for us. If I was grateful for America's free gift of citizenship, then I should respond and behave like I was grateful. And I did try.

But I never felt like I was voting or reading the Constitution enough, even though at an early stage in my Amercian life I voted in every possible election, and read the Constitution 1 hour a day. I never felt like I was giving enough taxes, or encouraging other people to be patriotic enough, either. Then there were temptations of greed, lust, laziness, and worldliness which always plagued me. I even had some fellow citizens on my hate list, whom I just couldn't stand, and I just couldn't forgive.

I tried. I tried to give myself over to the power of patriotism to take control of my life. I voted for the candidates I thought were the best and did as much patriotic duty as I could, knowing full well even as a American I could never be perfect--that was something to await when I got Social Security.

But I always felt guilty, at least nearly 4 or 5 times a day. I voted and did patrioitc acts and felt clean again, of course. But then I started to feel guilty that I didn't spend that much time in concern for the real needs of other citizens.

Now I am pretty much guilt free, and I'm lovin' it--freedom!

How'd I do it? I blamed other people than myself for my personal neurosis, then I moved to North Korea. How do you deal with it?

[markporter]

And I no longer feel guilty for my thoughts either, just my actions.

I would like to suggest that this is wrong, even from a non-christian point of view - you can't separate your thoughts and actions like that, you are a person who's actions are shaped by thoughts and vice-versa, your thought life is just as important to who you are as the actions you do.

[Doubting John]

JP:
Where a shame culture is concerned, at least there are vectors outside of you who can confirm or deny that you did wrong. And thus there is no internal struggle, which was the whole point of your OP.

Boy, you sure seem to know about this, don't you? "No internal struggle," eh? So that's why you fail to see the point of Romans 7? But you are absolutely wrong on both counts. Common sense and proper exegesis shows that you wrong, regardless of how much you ridicule. At the very least, you should know there is a scholarly debate about Romans 7, but you don't even seem to recognize it.

And yet you have such an air of confidence to you! I suppose the more you act like others are just stupid, the more of a following you get from those who are really stupid! They think to themselves, "Wow! JP has it all together." Well you don't, and your level of confidence is greatly misplaced, and so is trust your followers have in you. Maybe your librarian prisoners were impressed (what level of education did they have?), but I'm not.

I did think the bit about being an American was a tad funny. But don't you have better things to do..like take out the trash, change the kitty litter, wash the car, and take a bath (be sure to wash all holes, too).

ApologiaNick:


One test for a worldview though is if it can be lived out consistently. I have never heard of a relativist that can live out a worldview consistently.



Again, I'm not a relativist. But this whole thread is about the question you just now asked. Can a Christian live his or her world-view consistently?


MarkPorter:

I would like to suggest that this is wrong, even from a non-christian point of view - you can't separate your thoughts and actions like that, you are a person who's actions are shaped by thoughts and vice-versa, your thought life is just as important to who you are as the actions you do.

Perhaps so. It's just that I no longer think it's wrong to hate or lust, I suppose. Those things are fantasy, and I can discipline myself enough to keep such fantasies in my head. They can lead to wrong actions, I know, so I still have to guard against them, and I do. But I just don't have any fantasies that I think will bust out into wrong actions.

[Shadow Phoenix]

ApologiaNick:




Again, I'm not a relativist. But this whole thread is about the question you just now asked. Can a Christian live his or her world-view consistently?

Now I'll say there's a difference between perfectly and consistently. I would say it's our sin nature that keeps us from being perfect though we are being more and more conformed to the image of Christ.

But I would say the difference is that if a relativist begins really living out their worldview, you get a sociopath. If a Christian does, you get someone like Billy Graham or Mother Teresa. Of course, the best example would be Jesus. I don't think anyone would really look at Jesus and see his life as one not to be emulated.

[jpholding]

Boy, you sure seem to know about this, don't you?

Boy, the scholars whose work I consult, who have spent decades immersed in the literature, sure seem to know about this, don't they? Not that I expect you to ever pick up anything by them lest you be found in error; no, all you do is return to your Western prejudices with vague, non-answering appeals to "common sense" as opposed to an actual answer grounded in anthropological or social science scholarship.

At the very least, you should know there is a scholarly debate about Romans 7, but you don't even seem to recognize it.

I did recognize it when I did the research that led to my conclusion. So when do you plan to actually refute it and show that Rom 7 is not an example of "speech in character"?

And yet you have such an air of confidence to you!

Homework does tend to do that for a person, though I see that ignorance does it just as well as present company demonstrates. :wink:

I suppose the more you act like others are just stupid, the more of a following you get from those who are really stupid! They think to themselves, "Wow! JP has it all together." Well you don't, and your level of confidence is greatly misplaced, and so is trust your followers have in you.

The fun part is that when people like you say such things, without providing direct answers, it only makes my "followers" (as you insultingly say) find you less believable. So do keep it up.

Maybe your librarian prisoners were impressed

I seldom if ever talked apologetics with them. Sorry to bust your latest assumption. :lol:

I did think the bit about being an American was a tad funny.

Too bad you can't show that it does not destroy your attempt to create a problem out of your peculiar neurosis.

But don't you have better things to do..like take out the trash,

I'm doing that now, DJ. Hop in. :wink:

change the kitty litter,

Toby resents your comment.

wash the car

Get one free with every oil change. Nice, huh?

and take a bath (be sure to wash all holes, too).

Like the one your scholarship went down, for example? :lmbo:

[markporter]

Perhaps so. It's just that I no longer think it's wrong to hate or lust, I suppose. Those things are fantasy, and I can discipline myself enough to keep such fantasies in my head. They can lead to wrong actions, I know, so I still have to guard against them, and I do. But I just don't have any fantasies that I think will bust out into wrong actions.


It still seems a deficient view of goodness that restricts it to outward actions

[nyaminche]

Excellent thread, DJ.
While being raised a Christian for my entire life, I've been struggling with issues of guilt for a long, long time. As a Christian, yes, I've felt guilty. Yes, I've been so captivated by my guilt at times that I felt utterly helpless, and that I just did nothing at all, and got a whole lot worse. It's a guilt trap that has led me to more angst than I care to describe. But this trap has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with the devil's lies and my own weakness.

The one verse that I never understood was Rom 8:1 - Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (NIV). On the one hand, it obviously was not carte blanche to do whatever I wanted, without guilt. On the other hand, if no one could accuse or condemn me of anything, didn't that mean that everything was fair game? Neither of those stacked up. Telling myself "don't feel guilty" didn't work either.

It's taken me an embarrasingly long time to realize what chickonfire so excellently expressed. I'd never really had a true understanding of who a Christian really was, and how they stood with respect to God and men. The words were there in the Bible and I knew them through and through, but I'd never grasped what they were saying.

What you do does not determine who you are - who you are determines what you do.

I'd always seen myself as "just a sinner saved by grace". I treated myself like one. Lots of guilt, lots of prostration, lots of begging for forgiveness, feeling unworthy and unchristian and fake. Not all the time perhaps, but often. Living like this, I've never felt in the least victorious or free from guilt.

But when I finally understood what I was reading, that Christians are not sinners, but saints who sometimes sin, things changed for me. Understanding that I am a holy saint in the eyes of God means that I can finally act like one. Before I was always waiting (in guilt) for the grace of God to suddenly overwhelm me and cause me, a sinner, to no longer sin. Now I understand that as a saint, I'm free from condemnation from God. I don't have to wait to be transformed from a sinner into a marvellous Christian. I'm already a marvellous Christian, I just have to understand that, and believe that, and live like who I am (still not easy :wink: ).

As chickonfire says, there's absolutely nothing that I can do (short of absolute, concious, and total rejection of God (but I'm not intending to discuss that argument here)) to change who I am in Christ.

What replaces guilt in a Christian is conviction. While sin is still sin for the Christian and non-Christian alike, Christians are not condemned for their sin (happy are those whose sins the Lord does not hold against them!). But we are still convicted of it, we still realize what we have done is sin, and we are still called to confess it, renounce it, and repent from it. We still have to ask forgiveness from God and others. If we don't, it will usurp God's control of our lives, introduce feelings of guilt, disrupt our communion with God, and cause us misery. We give the devil a foothold in our lives and start to live like people who we are not.

But there's no basis for feeling bad, or worthless, or unsaved, or unloved. While the devil cannot undo our holy standing with God, if he can convince us that we are any of these things, he can cripple us in our daily lives, and keep us from acting like any kind of Christians at all.