The Changing in Pagan Society and other ?'s

[Mehangel]

1) Many pagan friends say that their religion is changed persistantly because of persecution. Doesn't persecution strengthen one self? So if one thing is true then why change it? Truth shouldn't change especially if it is to advoid conflict with others.

2) I have a friend who claims to be the one chosen. What is the deal with the one chosen? She claims to be someone pronounced to something like (Jack or Jaqc) If you have no Idea who this Jac is then I guess that I simply have to ask the same questions from someone who does not explain them well enough to an ignorent LDS member.

3) Whats with the elements? And if people can have two elements can they have three or even four or is it something that is not to be gained.

4) I heard from the same friends above that atlantus was destroyed because of corruption. If so then how does the reincarnation process work?

I don't know if these has been discussed before and if it has please show me a link to the thread.

[tmancour]

1) Many pagan friends say that their religion is changed persistantly because of persecution. Doesn't persecution strengthen one self? So if one thing is true then why change it? Truth shouldn't change especially if it is to advoid conflict with others.

While there is a certain element of truth to what your friends are saying, I think you may misunderstand the situation. Firstly, no one (except for a few mentally-ill extremists) wants to be persecuted for their religious beliefs. Yes, persecution may well strengthen your commitment to your religion -- but it's usually better for your life over all if you don't lose your job, your house, and your children because your neighbors don't understand your faith. There are better and more productive ways to become strong in your belief. And while we pride ourselves on the strength of our beliefs, most of us aren't stupid enough to step in front of a Mac truck for the sake of some "truth". Wisdom is an essential element to Pagan practice. I wouldn't say we change our truths to suit our circumstances, but then again we are less hung up on the "truth" of our beliefs than we are with how practical and useful they are to us. Avoiding conflict is often a good idea, which is why about half of all Pagans in America today stay "in the broom closet", concealing the nature of their religion to most of their friends, coworkers, and family. It just makes Thanksgiving dinner a little easier when Aunt Gert doesn't spend this valuable family quality time telling you why you're going to burn in hell.


2) I have a friend who claims to be the one chosen. What is the deal with the one chosen? She claims to be someone pronounced to something like (Jack or Jaqc) If you have no Idea who this Jac is then I guess that I simply have to ask the same questions from someone who does not explain them well enough to an ignorent LDS member.


There are a lot of people working out ego-issues in Paganism. It's not usually a problem. Your friend may well be "chosen" in her own mind -- may have experienced a revelationary dream or vision in which she was "chosen" by some spirit guide. But chosen for what and by whom are questions only she can answer. Most Pagans with any wisdom recognize this egotism for what it is, a youthful phase that usually passes, because they, too, went through such a phase. When it comes down to it, we are all "the chosen" in our own journeys. We are all the main characters in our own stories. There is nothing wrong with it, provided we don't try to get everyone else in the world to go along with it.

As far as the name goes, most Pagans adopt a magickal or circle name, a pseudonym that they are comfortable with, as part of our religious practice. Most Pagan traditions put a lot of stock in names and naming. By adopting a new name, we are initiating the beginning of our magickal personae. Kind of like how new converts to Christianity often pick "Christian" names from the Bible. It is part of the marking and recognition of their new spiritual life.


3) Whats with the elements? And if people can have two elements can they have three or even four or is it something that is not to be gained.


The elements are an important part of Pagan cosmology and phenomenology. There are Five elements, Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, plus the divine element of Spirit. That is what the five points of the Pagan pentacle represent. They are actually the basis for all modern Western science, as they were recognized by Classic philosophers as the elements that make up all other matter. Medieval alchemists expanded the list to our modern Periodic Table. But the original Elements have a role in modern science by describing the four essential States of Matter: Gas, Liquid, Solid, and Plasma. Modern Pagans use the elements as a basis for much of their magick. As a new Pagan learns the Craft, he/she usually studies each of the elements in turn until they have a good understanding of them all.


4) I heard from the same friends above that atlantus was destroyed because of corruption. If so then how does the reincarnation process work?


Atlantis is, to my knowlege, a myth that is only tangentially recognized by the Pagan community -- mostly by those who have claimed to be reincarnated Atlanteans. While I don't have any basis to dispute those claims, I also don't think it has much bearing on modern Pagan practice or belief.

As far as reincarnation goes, I do have some experience with that. I've recognized five seperate previous lives through hypnotic regression -- no one important, historical, or noteworthy -- and Lee might be pleased to know that one of them was an Orthodox Christian monk living in the outskirts of the Byzantine Empire (modern Romania, I think). But I was no theologian -- I was illiterate and in charge of the abbey's bakery for much of my life.

How does reincarnation work? Different people claim different ways. But the consensus of opinion is that after death a soul goes to the Afterlife (known as the Summerland or Tir na Nog to most Wiccans, druids and Celtic Reconstructionists, Valhalla or Hel to the Asatru) to review and reflect on the life just finished, rest and recreate, and then plan the next life.


I don't know if these has been discussed before and if it has please show me a link to the thread.

Individual questions are always welcomed.

Welcome to the thread!

Blessed be,

Arion the Blue
High Druid of Durham

[Mehangel]

Thanks you helped answer those questions better then they did.

But on the subject of the elements, you were saying there were origional elements? So why did they change?

[tmancour]

Thanks you helped answer those questions better then they did.


Thanks, it's what I do. It's a Druid thing.


But on the subject of the elements, you were saying there were origional elements? So why did they change?
[/quote]

Originally, the four elements were used by ancient cultures to describe the forces that they saw made up matter. Probably the Egyptians and Sumerians developed the idea first, but it quickly spread to other ancient civilizations, the Greeks giving it the most exposure. Consider: you are a primative herdsman, or even a priest of a deity. You look around at your universe and you can classify things into catagories of earth (solid material) air (mostly wind, of course) water ('cause it's wet) and fire (which burns). Each follows different rules, and it doesn't take much of a leap to conclude that all matter is made up of various combinations of these four -- but then you get to the living/non-living question. Spirit is therefore entered in.

This system worked fine for a few thousand years. Galen, father of Western medicine, associated the four elements into what he called the four Humors of the body: blood, yellow bile, phlegem, and black bile. This was prevailing medical thought until well into the 17th century, and persisted in places until the 19th.

What happened was alchemy. Alchemists started searching for all sorts of unlikely things, using various metals and chemicals to do so, and after a few centuries of experimentation they realized that the "4 elements" theory was inferior to a theory that encompassed all the irreducible elements they had -- iron, tin, gold, silver, cinnibar, etc. So they started using the new list (which led to chemistry and moleculor physics) and left behind the old 4 elements.

However, Alchemy had a science componant AND a mystical componant. While adapting the science portion was useful, the mystical componant still recognized the usefulness of the 4 elements, and found all sorts of nifty things to do with it. Much of Medieval and Rennisance alchemy and occultism can be distilled into various ways to make correspondances between different systems. Earth-air-fire-water, North-East-South-West, Solid-gas-plasma-liquid, Heaven-Hell-Earth-Purgatory, The Thing-Invisible Girl-Human Torch-Mr. Fantastic, the lists go on.

more detail? let me know!

Arion

[Mehangel]

So when the elements used seemed incorrect at the time they would change it something else until truth could be found. If I misunderstood what you said from Paragraph 3 and 4 please correct me.

[tmancour]

So when the elements used seemed incorrect at the time they would change it something else until truth could be found. If I misunderstood what you said from Paragraph 3 and 4 please correct me.


That's kind of the general idea -- a quest for the base elements of matter (and how to manipulate them into what you wanted) eventually, over centuries, evolved into the Scientific Method. But don't forget, this took centuries to work out, and marks the beginning of modern Chemistry's split from traditional Alchemy. There are still plenty of Alchemists today, though, that view the original Four Elements as the basis of all matter, mystically speaking.

[betzerg]

That's kind of the general idea -- a quest for the base elements of matter (and how to manipulate them into what you wanted) eventually, over centuries, evolved into the Scientific Method. But don't forget, this took centuries to work out, and marks the beginning of modern Chemistry's split from traditional Alchemy. There are still plenty of Alchemists today, though, that view the original Four Elements as the basis of all matter, mystically speaking.

Kabbalah also uses the four elements of creation in their view of manipulation. Supposidly Moses used Kabbalah to part the red sea.

The four elements are actually a representation of MAN himself. Housed in an earthen body (created from the dust) Breath (wind) Moisture contained in the breath (water) and heat from the body expressed in the breath (fire). So when man SPEAKS, if in alignment spiritually with the G-d of creation he IS the four elements. That is the concept that YESHUA brought (speak..say to this mountatin be removed and it will be done. OR SPEAK (cast out demons) or heal...or whatever) in a sense.

Why does paganism change so much? Just like anything else...they're just trying to make something work. And honestly...it really doesn't. Because man won't even begin to be in alignment with the holiness of G-d..and the purposes of G-d..we've pretty much lost our balance. It is balancing the seferot that brings oneness with G-d and an ability to perform miracles.

Maybe in the world to come?

Shalom,

BETZER

[Mehangel]

I am glad that I am understanding the elements more thankyou tmancour and betzerg. I know I have alot of questions but I find it mandatory to have them answered by someone so that I can understand fully the conversation. Well my next questions are:

1) In one book I read it mentioned numbers and how Jesus's name and Gods name turned into something that made them pagan wizards or something. does that mean that you truly believed Jesus is pagan? Do you know what I am talking about?

2) I looked over a book called Earth Magic which mentioned many types of druid ceremonies. Well I was just wondering how many types of Magic are their and is any magic prohibited by other wizards?

3) I was told that warlock was a name for an evil witch. Is it proper to address others who are not warlocks as mage, wizard or elementalist? I never had a chance to ask that question to that friend.

Just wishing to understand one question at a time.

[betzerg]

I am glad that I am understanding the elements more thankyou tmancour and betzerg. I know I have alot of questions but I find it mandatory to have them answered by someone so that I can understand fully the conversation. Well my next questions are:

1) In one book I read it mentioned numbers and how Jesus's name and Gods name turned into something that made them pagan wizards or something. does that mean that you truly believed Jesus is pagan? Do you know what I am talking about?

2) I looked over a book called Earth Magic which mentioned many types of druid ceremonies. Well I was just wondering how many types of Magic are their and is any magic prohibited by other wizards?

3) I was told that warlock was a name for an evil witch. Is it proper to address others who are not warlocks as mage, wizard or elementalist? I never had a chance to ask that question to that friend.

Just wishing to understand one question at a time.

Sorry, I'm not a pagan. I understand Kabbalah from a totally Torah observant position. G-d is soverign. What we do MUSt align with HIS will or it is not permitted.

Magic is manipulation. Manipulation is a sin. Those who feel powerless must used manipulation to regain a sense of hope..but G-d wishes all men to hope in HIM. . . To find their positions of order and existence in the realm of HIS
Design.

To try to magically control your universe is futile. I hope you give up this position and turn to doing mitvah and serving your creator. Mitvah is good deeds...actions that help G-d heal the earth and bring freedom to all mankind.

Shalom,

BETZER

[Mehangel]

I am sorry, I jump to conclusions way too fast that is why I ask questions on these things so that I don't jump to conclusions. I don't know what your post was really about but if you could tell me I'd be very much greatful. But I am still waiting for my questions to be answered.

[Durthorin]

1) In one book I read it mentioned numbers and how Jesus's name and Gods name turned into something that made them pagan wizards or something. does that mean that you truly believed Jesus is pagan? Do you know what I am talking about?


Varies with the Pagan, some see him if the think of him at all as an enlightened man, others may see him as an aspect of the "God".. ie male Diety.


2) I looked over a book called Earth Magic which mentioned many types of druid ceremonies. Well I was just wondering how many types of Magic are their and is any magic prohibited by other wizards?


As many types of magic as there are cultures with a multiplication factor for cultures that have two, three or four. Prohibitied universally? None. There is some that "most" of those that use magic consider unacceptable.. such as attempting to bend another to your will. I have found Wiccan's, Druids and Cherokee Shaman all agreeing on that being a "bad" thing. But you will find others who see no problem with it.


3) I was told that warlock was a name for an evil witch. Is it proper to address others who are not warlocks as mage, wizard or elementalist? I never had a chance to ask that question to that friend.


Its generally accepted that Warlock means an "oathbreaker" someone who has betrayed his oaths to his coven or circle. Some say it comes from a scotish word but you would be hard pressed to prove it. What is true is that a large number of current neo-pagans see the word as an insult. Most male witches accept the same form of address as a female witch. ie "Witch" In traditions, where what they do is is more a matter of their relationship with the gods & goddess and less about spells.. As mine, we tend to think of ourselves as follwers of the Old Gods.. and simply as Preistess and Preists in their service and the service of our community.

Blessed Be Dur

[Mehangel]

But is it improper or would it insult others to address them as mage, elementalist or wizard. I'm just wondering.

[Durthorin]

But is it improper or would it insult others to address them as mage, elementalist or wizard. I'm just wondering.

Personally, I wouldn't be insulted.. but I might feel like blushing. :)

[technomage]

But is it improper or would it insult others to address them as mage, elementalist or wizard. I'm just wondering.

Mage would not be terribly improper, but technically some of them would be somewhat incorrect, at best. The full list of titles that I am entitled to is as follows:
1: "High Priest and Magus," based on my work as a Wiccan.
2: 5°=6 (Adeptus Minor) based on accomplishments within an organized lodge.
3: Theoretically, I'm also entitled to refer to myself as 10°=1 (Ipsissimus), based on certain ritual experiences. However, I doubt any Ceremonial Magician I ever meet will accept such a designation, and I do not claim the title that goes with the experience.

However, I personally claim no titles, and just answer to "Justin." If one calls me by one of my titles, I usually assume they're up to no good. :hehe:

[tmancour]

Mage would not be terribly improper, but technically some of them would be somewhat incorrect, at best. The full list of titles that I am entitled to is as follows:
1: "High Priest and Magus," based on my work as a Wiccan.
2: 5°=6 (Adeptus Minor) based on accomplishments within an organized lodge.
3: Theoretically, I'm also entitled to refer to myself as 10°=1 (Ipsissimus), based on certain ritual experiences. However, I doubt any Ceremonial Magician I ever meet will accept such a designation, and I do not claim the title that goes with the experience.

However, I personally claim no titles, and just answer to "Justin." If one calls me by one of my titles, I usually assume they're up to no good. :hehe:


Consider that many pagans use these designations not as titles, per se -- though I have no problem with titles that are appropriate within a particular religious organization -- but as descriptions. Mage= someone who uses magick. Priest/Priestess=spiritual description. High Priest/High Priestess=the one who runs the mailing list. I think the rank-and-file pagans (those who have been practicing more than five years -- let's face it, we get our share of denomination-hoppers) unofficially work under the Rectification of Names, a Confucian doctrine that basically means: "You are your title when you act as that title describes. If you are not doing the job your title describes, then you should no longer have the title -- or the job." That is, we'll accept titles at face value for the sake of politeness, but it takes time and experience for that title to actually mean something to them. Sceptisism is a wonderful thing.

For the record, I am a High Priest in a Neo-Alexandrian tradition, a minister in the ULC, First Shift Flamekeeper of Cill Guis (Ord Brigheada), and High Druid of Durham.

A bit of explanation on the last part: when I was in college, a wanna-be hippy majoring in Religious Studies, I went to a post-class party for a Taoism class (bitchin' class, BTW). There was the usual mix of pre-seminary students and wacky pagan/buddhist hippies, plus alcohol and other intoxicants. As the conversation spiraled out of control, long past midnight, someone asked about my personal religious philosophy, and a friend quipped, 'Dude, that's the High Druid of Durham.'
'What makes him the High Druid?'
'He's the highest druid you'll ever see. It's more of a description than a title.'

I liked it so much, I adopted it and have used it long passed my collegiate experimental phase. Acording to the principal of the Rectification of Names, if I act like the High Druid, I am the High Druid. Besides, no one else wanted the job.

Peace out,

Arion

[technomage]

I think the rank-and-file pagans (those who have been practicing more than five years -- let's face it, we get our share of denomination-hoppers) unofficially work under the Rectification of Names ...

Absolutely ... and that's a major part of the reason I no longer use the titles. (Plus which, without them I save lots on the printing costs for my customized stationery. :hehe: )

I liked it so much, I adopted it and have used it long passed my collegiate experimental phase. Acording to the principal of the Rectification of Names, if I act like the High Druid, I am the High Druid. Besides, no one else wanted the job.

:lmbo: Oh, I wish I'd been in on that class ... or at least at the party!

[tmancour]

:lmbo: Oh, I wish I'd been in on that class ... or at least at the party!


It was one of my three favorite religious studies classes. Taoism is a fascinating religion/philosophy, and I think that modern paganism draws indirectly more on Taoism than on any other "great religion" philosophy. My other favorite classes were on Tibetan Buddhism -- with the foremost Western authority on the subject, Eva Dargyay -- and the place of the Oedipus cycle in Greek religious culture. Least-favorite: Introduction to Akkadian (student store was all out of papyri styli and clay tablets) and a Religious literature class taught by a supremely snotty Asian professor who hated white people. But the books were cool.

And the parties in the RS department were always killer. At the beginning of the year, there were about equal number Pre-Seminarians and Hippies vying to establish the naked Truth of human religion. By the end of the year, there were about an equal number of each as well -- but not the same people. Pre-Sems became hippies, Hippies got traditional religion, and all the really smart people transferred out of the program and went into Web Design and actually got jobs after school. But the parties were always stimulating. Have a few drinks, someone lights a joint after midnight (and all the squares have gone home) and before you know it, some girl is dancing on the hood of a car with her moral philosophy off. Wild.

[Mehangel]

You answered that question perfect.

Next question, concerning druids, when does one become a druid, I personally am not interested as I declined to become one from more than one friend because it would conflict with my current religion, but I am still courious in what is included and what was required.

[tmancour]

You answered that question perfect.

Next question, concerning druids, when does one become a druid, I personally am not interested as I declined to become one from more than one friend because it would conflict with my current religion, but I am still courious in what is included and what was required.


It really depends upon just what you consider being a druid to mean. If you mean membership in a grove or other organization, there are several that have excellent reputations for clerical training, lore, or tradition. None of them really practice the faith of the original druids, because all of that was lost, due to the druid's reluctance to committing their sacred teachings to paper. So the only portrait we get of them is the descriptions of their activities by Herodotus and Julius Caesar -- neither of whom were great fans.

I try to take my own brand of druidism as an inspired tradition. Druids functioned in Celtic society as the professional class -- doctors, lawyers, war leaders, magicians, priests, geneologists, healers, bards, all sorts of things. But basically each tuath or tribe or clan would have a group of druids that were "theirs", and serviced each tribe as needed.

Today, I try to service my "tribe", my immediate family and large circle of friends (most of whom are decidedly not pagan) the best way I can. I provide comfort in times of great need, as a Christian priest is supposed to. I arrange special celebrations for folks. I refer them to appropriate agencies or professionals as they need them. I offer wisdom and counsel when asked. I try to steer political discussion. And I do what I can to encourage them to find peace, prosperity, and happiness. That's what I do as a druid, and it has little to do with the lore I've learned or the herbs I've studied or even the rites and rituals I've practiced. It is an attitude. I have taken on the responsibility of seeing my people thrive. And that makes me the druid I am today.

That and the cool cedar staff and pointy blue hat with the stars on it.

Arion

[technomage]

You answered that question perfect.

Next question, concerning druids, when does one become a druid, I personally am not interested as I declined to become one from more than one friend because it would conflict with my current religion, but I am still courious in what is included and what was required.

Actually, you might be somewhat surprised. The Druids in Britania and Ireland were not necessarily a religious class, but a "professional" caste that also included doctors, lawyers, poets (seen as important cultural members) and scholars. There were Brehon laws that mentioned Druids up through the 14th century in Ireland, if I remember correctly--and these "druids" were quite obviously Christian!

I don't have the reference right to hand--Arion may have it available--but being a Druid only conflicts with Christianity if you also follow a Celtic religion.

[Mehangel]

I didn't mean to say that it conflicted with being christian for I know that it doesn't, I meant that being LDS has conflicts with Druidism.

Anyhow, so what I take is that the attitude of druid is for the most part the necessity, please correct me if I am wrong for I only say what I got out of it.

[technomage]

I didn't mean to say that it conflicted with being christian for I know that it doesn't, I meant that being LDS has conflicts with Druidism.

As a non-Christian, I tend to consider the various Mormon sects as sub-sects of Christianity as a whole--and I must admit that I see no conflict between LDS and secular Druidism. However, I'm not knowledgeable enough to say whether or not there is an actual conflict: if you are a member of a Mormon church, your bishop is probably the best person to speak with.

Anyhow, so what I take is that the attitude of druid is for the most part the necessity, please correct me if I am wrong for I only say what I got out of it.

Well ... attitude certainly plays a part, but the biggest thing is a cultural connection--one that, strictly speaking, isn't actually extant anymore. There are various organizations (such as ADF) that are attempting to revive that cultural connection, however, they may be doing so strictly in a religious context--I'm not sure of ADF or similar organizations work to accomodate Christians within their organization, though I would be pleased if they did.

[Mehangel]

You do realise that there are several religions that consider LDS as a cult and choose not to associated the LDS religion with christianity in any way shape or form.

So what you are saying is that it is the cultural connection that really counts.

I was told that:

1) The Gods can be defeated (not necessarily killed).

2) These Gods are not replaced.

is any of this true? I know that it is rooted back near reincarnation but I was just wondering what happens when all the Gods are defeated, if it is true?

[technomage]

You do realise that there are several religions that consider LDS as a cult and choose not to associated the LDS religion with christianity in any way shape or form.

Yeppers. I see such arguments as "intra-religious fighting," similar to the arguments between Catholicism and some sects of Protestantism, or the views that most Mormons have of non-Mormon Christians (that they're somewhere close to the right track, but don't quite have all the information correct).

So what you are saying is that it is the cultural connection that really counts.

Eh ... sort of. The cultural connection is what counted back then (pre-Christian and early Christian Ireland). Now, instead of being born into a culture, we have a much greater freedom of association--in other words, I can choose to attend a Druidic association without having been born in Ireland.

I was told that:

1) The Gods can be defeated (not necessarily killed).

2) These Gods are not replaced.

is any of this true? I know that it is rooted back near reincarnation but I was just wondering what happens when all the Gods are defeated, if it is true?

Stories of the defeat of the Gods (such as Ragnarok (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarok), or some of the Celtic stories as Christianity advanced in Celtic lands) are just that--stories. They are human-devised analogies of the Divine--necessary, because the Creator is essentially beyond our understanding, but also necessarily inaccurate for the very same reason.

In that sense, I guess a person can believe that the stories are true--more fundamentally, people can believe that even if the stories are not entirely accurate, they represent a fundamental truth. That does not actually make the stories true. Afte all, people believed the phlogiston theory for centuries.

[Mehangel]

I looked up the Phlogiston Theory and it mentioned an element of Combustion, which later stated as false. Were you saying that people still believe in the theory, forgive me but it seemed possible that some of the sentences make it seem so?

So are you saying that these stories told are like legends, stories that can have truth to them, but are more false as word passes them on like rumors in a game?

[technomage]

I looked up the Phlogiston Theory and it mentioned an element of Combustion, which later stated as false. Were you saying that people still believe in the theory, forgive me but it seemed possible that some of the sentences make it seem so?

I'm sorry--I meant to demonstrate that popular agreement to a theory does not make the theory true, and demonstrate that assertion by the history of the Phlogiston theory. I guess I was thinking in shorthand and forgot to translate to real-people speak. :blush: And no--I know of no one who still believes in phlogiston ... though in the light of the Flat Earth Society, I suppose it's not impossible.

So are you saying that these stories told are like legends, stories that can have truth to them, but are more false as word passes them on like rumors in a game?

Eh ... the "Telephone" analogy can also be relevant, but it's far more complex.

I am of the belief that all human religions are inaccurate depictions of God--and yes, while I have a great deal of respect for both Mormonism and mainstream Christianity, I include both these and my own religion of Wicca as all being equally wrong. Succinctly, human religions are not capable of having an accurate understanding or depiction of God, because God is fundamentally beyond human comprehension.

At the same time, I feel that it is possible for a religion to still be useful in gaining some measure of communion with God, despite the intrinsic errors of the doctrines. This is why I tend to respect religions that I do not practice: I may disagree with the specific doctrines or holy books (and I do specifically disagree with any assertions of historical inerrancy in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Qu'ran, and my own Book of Shadows, to name a few examples), I have to recognize that all of the various paths that look to these books have produced people who were in communion with the Creator.

In that sense, I can truly say that all religions are wrong--but all may be useful

[Mehangel]

I am of the belief that all human religions are inaccurate depictions of God--and yes, while I have a great deal of respect for both Mormonism and mainstream Christianity, I include both these and my own religion of Wicca as all being equally wrong. Succinctly, human religions are not capable of having an accurate understanding or depiction of God, because God is fundamentally beyond human comprehension.

At the same time, I feel that it is possible for a religion to still be useful in gaining some measure of communion with God, despite the intrinsic errors of the doctrines. This is why I tend to respect religions that I do not practice: I may disagree with the specific doctrines or holy books (and I do specifically disagree with any assertions of historical inerrancy in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Qu'ran, and my own Book of Shadows, to name a few examples), I have to recognize that all of the various paths that look to these books have produced people who were in communion with the Creator.

In that sense, I can truly say that all religions are wrong--but all may be useful

That's interesting because I am of the belief that all religions have some truth though obviously some religions have more truth then others.

I respect your beliefs, mostly because I found that most pagan religions have alot of truth its just that other religions don't see through all the steriotypes and false lies. I also respect your religion because most pagan religions I've seen aren't quick to judge or should I say make rash choices.

Next question,

I heard from someone that the order of the pheonix was a real orginization is this true and if so what did they do or what was their purpose?

[technomage]

That's interesting because I am of the belief that all religions have some truth though obviously some religions have more truth then others.

When I say that all religions are wrong is that these religions claim to be an accurate depiction of the Creator. As human beings, we simply are not capable of understanding God: the Creator is beyond our human abilities to comprehend in any meaningful way.

Mehangel, as you know, the assertion that Joseph Smith's visions were genuine has come under doubt from many sources--but let's set those doubts aside for a moment. Even if those visions were entirely genuine, there is no way that Joseph Smith could have fully understood Heavenly Father. Heck, if I'm not mistaken, Smith said as much.

A finite human being cannot understand an infinite God. We can call this inability the "Understanding Gap." Any religion, any book, any prophet who claims to understand God falls prey to this Understanding Gap--but none (or very few) acknowledge the gap.

I heard from someone that the order of the pheonix was a real orginization is this true and if so what did they do or what was their purpose?

Absolutely true--the Order of the Phoenix is a real organization ... approximately equivalent to America's Medal of Freedom. See the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Phoenix_%28Greek_medal%29)article.

As far as an occultic "Order of the Phoenix," no ... unless some Pagans got the idea from the Harry Potter books and decided to copy it, no such organization exists. However, there are a lot of people out there who desperately want to make a connection between the Harry Potter books and witchcraft or occultism: some of those people are not above repeating false rumors in good faith, or even telling outright lies, to "prove" their point. It's no more true than the accusations of witchcraft within the LDS church.

[Mehangel]

When I say that all religions are wrong is that these religions claim to be an accurate depiction of the Creator. As human beings, we simply are not capable of understanding God: the Creator is beyond our human abilities to comprehend in any meaningful way.

Mehangel, as you know, the assertion that Joseph Smith's visions were genuine has come under doubt from many sources--but let's set those doubts aside for a moment. Even if those visions were entirely genuine, there is no way that Joseph Smith could have fully understood Heavenly Father. Heck, if I'm not mistaken, Smith said as much.

A finite human being cannot understand an infinite God. We can call this inability the "Understanding Gap." Any religion, any book, any prophet who claims to understand God falls prey to this Understanding Gap--but none (or very few) acknowledge the gap.



Yes, it is true that human beings cannot see God's true purpose, but I say that when someone hears truth from someone that can only tell truth there should not be an understanding gap. The prayer was to answer a single question of which I can hardly doubt there would be an understanding gap. The prayer's purpose was to find out which church was true, the answer none of them and was commanded to create the true church to sum it all up.

Do I say that we understand all revelations and visions given to us, no I don't.

Its like Paul the Revelator who wrote Revelations for our day and for someone having to write about trains and airplanes would cause an understanding gap.

I have seen that there are several pantheons, some of which conflict with each other (I'm not saying the names but how they became god) do Pagans have to choose which pantheon is most true to them? How does it work out?

[technomage]

Yes, it is true that human beings cannot see God's true purpose, but I say that when someone hears truth from someone that can only tell truth there should not be an understanding gap.

Well, that's where the issue of understanding comes in. Let us presume again that Smiths vision was entirely authentic--did he actually understand what the messengers of God were saying to him, or did he have an incomprehensible vision and attatch his own meanings and interpretation to the events that occurred?

Mehangel, I have experienced events that could be considered equivalent to Smith's experiences ... yet the ultimate message was different. Now, I know that at least part of that difference stemmed from my own subjective worldview ... but there was much I did not understand. For a while, I honestly thought that I had received a "universal vision," intended for the world. It was only upon reflection that I understood that my vision was meant primarily for me.

It is my humble but honest opinion that much of Smith's "vision" was not an actual message from Heavenly Father, but was Smith's opinions of contemporary Christianity. The reason for my opinion is that much of the history that Smith wrote about is not accurate. (We can discuss Smith's historical assertions in another thread, if you like.) However, even though his history was not accurate, there was (and is) quite a bit of truth to some of his writings abnout 19th century Christianity--and many of those assertions hold true, even today. There was and is quite a bit of corruption in the Church leadership.

But his accuracy in gauging the tenor of the Church of his day does not excuse the historical errors. Smith was a man ... but if I am forced to hold to the standards required for prophecy in the Old Testament, then I am in turn forced to reject Smith as an actual Prophet. Now, by my standards, I do consider Smith a prophet ... but my standards of "prophecy" also include allowance for that "Information Gap."

Its like Paul the Revelator who wrote Revelations for our day and for someone having to write about trains and airplanes would cause an understanding gap.

Mehangel, Paul did not write Revelation--Revelation was written about thirty-five years after Paul's death. Revelation was written by one (or more) members of the Johanine Community--a sect of the Early Church.

I have seen that there are several pantheons, some of which conflict with each other (I'm not saying the names but how they became god) do Pagans have to choose which pantheon is most true to them? How does it work out?

That's a hard question to answer. Paganism is not a religion per se, but a rather broad category of religions, most of which are not compatable. For Wiccans, there is a specific God and Goddess--though they are called by many names, their nature does not truly change.

However, again we run across that "Information Gap." None of the various myths or God-Names are an accurate depictiopn of the Creator--including the Wiccan God and Goddess. Most pagans associate themselves with a partiicular pantheon or Patron with whom they feel a personal connection ... a parallel to the "burning in the bosom," to be quite succinct about it. :wink:

Yet when we work through our limited understanding, many Pagans become persuaded that all Gods are one God, all Goddesses are one Goddess, and the Goddess and God are One. This is one of the Mysteries, because while I can tell you my conclusions, my words cannot and will not change your apprehension of the Creator. If you were to have the same experiences that I have had, I am moderately confident that you would reach the same conclusion.

[Mehangel]

Oops I meant John the Revelator who wrote Revelations my bad. :blush: :blush:

So what your saying is that Paganism is a way of life rather than a religion?

[technomage]

Oops I meant John the Revelator who wrote Revelations my bad. :blush: :blush:

No worries ... I've done similar. :teeth:

So what your saying is that Paganism is a way of life rather than a religion?

Hmmm ... not really. Paganism is a broad category, just as Christianity is. Heck, if you want to get really technical, Paganism is just anything that's not Jewish, Christian, or Muslim ... depending on which dictionary one uses, of course. :lol:

[Mehangel]

Next question: What is the significance of having wands out of different types of wood? Like some places offer wands of oak and others offer wands of woods like Rosemary or something. Do certain wands give certain benefits?

[technomage]

Next question: What is the significance of having wands out of different types of wood? Like some places offer wands of oak and others offer wands of woods like Rosemary or something. Do certain wands give certain benefits?

Well, traditionally they do. However, most of those "traditions" are really, really imaginitive. :wink:

[Mehangel]

Well, traditionally they do. However, most of those "traditions" are really, really imaginitive. :wink:

The way you put it seems once again it can be seen in possibly 5 ways.

1) They don't give any benefits though still useful

2) The benefits are low and often go unnoticed

3) Could be considered useless as are not required regularly

4) They are decoration

5) They have benefits

Could you please verify more clearly what you meant?

[technomage]

The way you put it seems once again it can be seen in possibly 5 ways.

1) They don't give any benefits though still useful

2) The benefits are low and often go unnoticed

3) Could be considered useless as are not required regularly

4) They are decoration

5) They have benefits

Could you please verify more clearly what you meant?

:lol: Sorry, the cynic in me was coming out. The sixth possibility is "There may or may not be benefits of using specific woods for wands, but the people who craft and sell wands would really like people to believe that their are benefits." :hehe:

I tend to view magic with a psychological model: one of the primary purposes of magic in Wicca is to change a person's view of a situation, and to psychologically give them power over evens that they would not usually have power over (or, more accurately, to restore to practitioners the power that they actually have, but that "mundane" concerns often make them forget). In that sense, yes, if a person believes (for instance) that a rosewood wand would be more beneficial than an oak wand, their belief makes it so. It's kind of a "magic by placebo effect."

At the same time, I have seen that magic may have more benefits than merely psychological. Case in point: I am clinically sterile due to a childhood illness. My wife and I wanted a baby, and we tried for eighteen months with no result. We cast a fertility spell, and my wife "caught" before the next full moon. Was it just random chance, or was the magic effectual? I can't tell you with any scientific backing, but I firmly believe that my daughter's existence is due, in part, to the spell that we cast.

There is much about magic that is subjective and personal, and as such it is difficult at best to give a "definitive" answer about the efficacy of a particular wood for one's wand. But I can definitely tell you that if a person believes that a particular wand is effective, that tends to make their magic more effective. This can actually be a bad thing, because magical tools can become a crutch. It would be rather like a Mormon who believes they are kept ritually "clean" by the sacred garments that they wear, rather than by the grace of God.

I once had a student who was caught in that type of thinking--he thought that his power came from his ritual tools, rather than from within him. As part of his "challenge" before Initiation, I had him sell all his tools and books, then cast a Circle (a ritually cleansed area for worship or magical work). He almost failed because he thought he needed the tools ... but he finally broke that psychological barrier.

[Mehangel]

So, its all psychological, as if you believe it does better than it will. But as you said with relying on it too much I have a quote from one of my Magic the Gathering cards: :lol:

"If magic is your crutch, cast it aside and learn to walk without it."
-Teferi

I have read that their are several Items that are on the alter, I was just wondering what is the symbolism for these items that are on the alters, or is there no symbolism and it is for show and or use?

[technomage]

So, its all psychological, as if you believe it does better than it will. But as you said with relying on it too much I have a quote from one of my Magic the Gathering cards: :lol:

"If magic is your crutch, cast it aside and learn to walk without it."
-Teferi

Well, as I said, it's not all psycholgical ... but the rest is well considered. I thought I was the only dweeb around here that played Magic: the Addiction. :hehe:

I have read that their are several Items that are on the alter, I was just wondering what is the symbolism for these items that are on the alters, or is there no symbolism and it is for show and or use?

They are symbolically important, but the entire list would be quite long ... and altars layouts are not set in stone across Wicca as a whole. A brief web-search on "Wiccan Tools" would probably give a more complete overview than I could in a single post.

[Mehangel]

Well, I play one wicked Green Druid Insect Token Deck. Well actually I stopped for a while as I didn't see any druids nor insects in the Kammigawa series.

So others have different symbolisms depending on which sect the Pagan is?

What are the standard moral beliefs set by your religion?

[technomage]

Well, I play one wicked Green Druid Insect Token Deck. Well actually I stopped for a while as I didn't see any druids nor insects in the Kammigawa series.

I used to play Slivers and land destruction. Scary ... but weak against some of the Blue decks, unless I got my land eaters out quickly.

So others have different symbolisms depending on which sect the Pagan is?

Broadly speaking there are three major branches of modern Paganism: Wicca, Wicca-influenced Paganism, and non-Wiccan Paganism. For Wicca and Wiccan-influenced Paganism, the symbolism is usually fairly similar: a good analogy is that like Christianity, if someone says "I'm a Pagan," you know that they may have some really weird beliefs, but there's at least some common ground for understanding ... well, usually. :hehe:

Non-Wiccan paganism is "everybody else," and they're all different. The AsatruaR and similar are based on pre-Christian Germanic mythology. Druidism is loosely based on pre-Christian and early Christian Celtic mythology. And there are other Pagan faiths that have their own basis.

What are the standard moral beliefs set by your religion?

Here we leave Paganism and start talking about Wicca specifically--and even more specifically, about Earthstar Wicca (the tradition to which I belong).

There are five basic statements around which my understanding of ethics is based:
1: The Wiccan Rede: "An it harm none, do as you will."
2: The Law of Return: "What we do returns to us."
3: The Ethic of Self-Responsibility: "I am responsible for my actions."
4: The Ethic of Constant Improvement: "If I stumble today, I shall strive to improve tomorrow."
5: The Ethic of Attunement: "Seek to become attuned to the Gods, and to your fellows on this earth."

It's quite a bit more complex than this, of course: each of these statements has deep ramifications, some of which I can go into here, but some of which are considered "oathbound," and that I cannot discuss.

[Mehangel]

Ah Slivers, I don't mind them that much even if they empower each other just because I use other peoples slivers against them such as using Alpha Statis on an Insect Druid + Regeneration + Add creature type Sliver + unblockable (or not), and boom either I gain 2 insect tokens for each sliver blocking it and gain life for each dmg delt to it or add up the Slivers x2 and usually that player is dead. With Druids I don't worry about destroy lands, other tokens, counter, or burn. I only worry about remove from game and -X/-X or the occaisonal Destroy all tokens and or Creatures.

Okay so:

Wiccan: 5 Rules
Christian: 10 Rules
Native American: 12 Rules

What about Druid Rules or laws?

How do different types of magic differ?

[technomage]

Slivers. :grin: The one that really gets me out of trouble is the Shifting Sliver. Truly an evil card. :hehe: Unless your opponent has something to copy or add creature types (as you do), they're toast.

Okay so:

Wiccan: 5 Rules
Christian: 10 Rules
Native American: 12 Rules

Hmmm ... gotta make a clarification here. Those five statements apply only to Earthstar Wicca, to CUEW Wicca (a tradition that I used to be a member of, and from whom I adapted those statements), and any other Trads that have chosen to use them. They're not universal.

And those aren't the "Rules," per se. There is also the "Coven Law," but that's a pretty long list of rules, and those change from tradition to tradition, and even from coven to coven.

What about Druid Rules or laws?

Dunno--that's like asking a Mormon about Roman Catholic Canon Law. :wink: I'm knowledgeable about Wicca, but I only know the basics of Druidism.

How do different types of magic differ?

Mehangel, my friend, discussing the technical aspects of magic gets into areas I'm not allowed to discuss with non-Initiates. I'm sorry, that's nothing personal, but it is a strict requirement of my Tradition, and part of my vows.

[tmancour]

Slivers. :grin: The one that really gets me out of trouble is the Shifting Sliver. Truly an evil card. :hehe: Unless your opponent has something to copy or add creature types (as you do), they're toast.


Hi, my name is Arion, and I'm a Magic: the Gathering Addict. . .
(* Hi Arion!*)


Hmmm ... gotta make a clarification here. Those five statements apply only to Earthstar Wicca, to CUEW Wicca (a tradition that I used to be a member of, and from whom I adapted those statements), and any other Trads that have chosen to use them. They're not universal.

And those aren't the "Rules," per se. There is also the "Coven Law," but that's a pretty long list of rules, and those change from tradition to tradition, and even from coven to coven.


I'd like to interject -- because that's one of the things that Druids do. Sorry.

While those are a good general guide to Wiccan and Pagan ethics, they are not considered a) absolute and b) really rules or laws, in the Judeo-Christian sense. They are more like laws or theories in the scientific sense, i.e. statements which encompass observed phenomena, not legislated or divinely mandated rules.

The difference may seem minor, but it's important to Pagan theology, especially in relation to Abrahamic theology. It's a very important difference between the religions, and one of the areas which is most common for miscommunications and misunderstandings.

Abrhamic faiths are all derived from the Ten Commandments (c), Mosaic law. The whole basis of Abrahamic religion is a variation on this theme. Abrahamic laws are absolute, therefore the morals and ethics are absolute, with little room for equivication. Some believe that the existance of "divine law" is a defining characteristic of Western Civilization; a way to bind all peoples by a common law and belief structure, a common and absolute moral code.

Pagans, on the other hand, (well, some of us who prattle incessently about such things), see the idea of a "divine law" such as Mosaic law as ultimately destructive to human society. The theory is that closed canon text-based religions are, by necessity, subject to interpretation. In addition they are damnably inflexible, which is bad because it makes it difficult to adapt to a changing and evolving society. It takes the onus of responsibility off of the individual and places it with the law, allowing individuals to act unethically, but in accordance with the law to the effect of escaping responsibility for their actions. Legalistic religions also allow ample opportunity for the spirit of the law to be flouted by the exploitation of loopholes. In short, when you let the lawyers write the religion, everyone gets screwed eventually.

Paganism, by contrast, in general emphasizes personal responsibility and the cultivation of personal wisdom as a superior for both the individual and society, rather depend upon divinely mandated laws which are subject to interpretation. That gets us accused of being "moral relativists", which is fine by us. It's "moral absolutists" who flew the planes on 9/11.




Dunno--that's like asking a Mormon about Roman Catholic Canon Law. :wink: I'm knowledgeable about Wicca, but I only know the basics of Druidism.


I suggest looking at the ADF website for a good general overview of Druidic tenants. But every tradition and every druid has a slightly different set. Your Mileage May Vary. www.adf.org


Mehangel, my friend, discussing the technical aspects of magic gets into areas I'm not allowed to discuss with non-Initiates. I'm sorry, that's nothing personal, but it is a strict requirement of my Tradition, and part of my vows.

While I can discuss it, I preface any discussion with the fact that some of us spend an entire lifetime in the study of the Art, and any vague overview I give would be inadequate. It's kind of like asking, "So, tell me about molecular physics." Where do you begin?

Does that help?

Arion

[Mehangel]

I suggest looking at the ADF website for a good general overview of Druidic tenants. But every tradition and every druid has a slightly different set. Your Mileage May Vary. www.adf.org



This site helps alot.


While I can discuss it, I preface any discussion with the fact that some of us spend an entire lifetime in the study of the Art, and any vague overview I give would be inadequate. It's kind of like asking, "So, tell me about molecular physics." Where do you begin?

Does that help?



Yes it does.

Now I've heard rumors some of which I believe to be false which concerns sites that have spells available for show. Some say that these spells can be corrupt, cannot/should not be trusted, are evil, will drive one insane because weak minded are unable to control one self, etc. My question is are any of these things true? and to what extent?

[tmancour]

Now I've heard rumors some of which I believe to be false which concerns sites that have spells available for show. Some say that these spells can be corrupt, cannot/should not be trusted, are evil, will drive one insane because weak minded are unable to control one self, etc. My question is are any of these things true? and to what extent?


There are plenty of sites out there with spells on them. I've done my best to collect the better ones. During my survey, I'd say that 99% of the spells on the net are beneficial or completely harmless, assuming that the user didn't know what they were doing. A protection charm, for instance, would have a very, very low possibility for misuse or malfunction. Love spells have a slightly higher chance, in general, but truly disasterous consequences are no more likely for using the spell as they would be in the normal course of human interaction.

Of the 1% of spells that COULD be harmful, most are listed as curiosities only. These are the ones that are "voodoo curses", "evil", etc. Real "Dark Arts" stuff.

Are they "dangerous"? No more than complete plans published on-line for an assault rifle would be dangerous. Sure, you could assemble an AK-47 if you had exact specifications -- and a a machine shop, carpentry shop, years of specialized training and exactly the right tools. By the time you went through all that, you'd probably find some other way to acheive your objective. "Evil Bad Magick" is kind of like that. Those truly horrendous spells are useful only to someone who has already trained their mind and developed the spiritual strength to weild it them -- at which point the mage in question has usually developed the wisdom to understand why such spells are unecessary and a bad idea OR developed the understanding of the Art to the point where the mage would naturally write his or her own spell.

Can magick be dangerous? Of course -- to some people, in some situations. So are four-wheeled ATVs, yet most states have few or no rules regarding their use. I could argue that the weak minded are as likely, if not more, to join a destructive cult (and most cults in the country are, actually Christian; pagans have a hard time forming cults because we aren't that organized) as they are to use a Dark Magick spell to disasterous consequence.

Has it happened? I'm sure it has. I'm also sure that people have killed their children because of perceived "hidden messages" in the Bible. Would I want to ban the Bible? Of course not. The spells themselves are not "corrupt", any more than a diagram of an AK-47 is corrupt. The real practice of Magick is almost entirely in one's mind. It's hard enough for most people to get their desired result without years of study, discipline, and practice. To think that a spell is "corrupt" and will cause harm simply because it invokes strange names and dark imagery is innacurate. Should newcomers to the Art dabble with such powerful magick? No more than a first-year karate student should try to break through a 1 ft tall pile of bricks with his hand. They know just enough to hurt themselves -- but it's unlikely that they'll hurt anyone else.

And that's part of learning responsibility, a cornerstone of the Art. My first effective spell was a love spell when I was about 14. It worked great.

For a week. Then things went sour. Not badly -- it wasn't a happy time, but no one got hurt -- but it taught me some valuable lessons about magick and love that have stuck with me to this day.

Arion

[Mehangel]

So according to your people don't mess with spells then advertise them online.

Where can I find an accurate site for the history of egypt and its' magic?
Google doesn't always work.

[technomage]

So according to your people don't mess with spells then advertise them online.

Well ... for my point of view, that would be rather like advertizing how "powerful" your praying was, or something of the like. Though magic is not exactly equivalent to prayer, from my point of view there are some parallels.

Where can I find an accurate site for the history of egypt and its' magic?
Google doesn't always work.

Hmmm ... The absolute best place is the original documents: the Papyrus of Ani is one of the most classic (and most complete) of the funerary texts, and there is an absolute wealth of spells from Egypt on other texts. Try E. A. Wallace Budge for a good scholarly look at the topic: Budge's pronunciation values have been long derided by more recent research, but he probably has the best compilation of Egyptian magical and funerary texts and inscriptions readily available to a non-specialist.

[Mehangel]

Are their spells that you can do subvocal (without verbal component, not including alchemy)? Sorry, I am a DnD fan so it's hard to ask about spells without listing feats and such.

You mentioned that you take the best spells available. does this mean that you take spells that are:

Quickened in preparation or in cast?
Subvocal?
Duration increased/decreased?
more properties?
less complicated?
all the above?

please verify if it isn't too much trouble.

[tmancour]

Are their spells that you can do subvocal (without verbal component, not including alchemy)? Sorry, I am a DnD fan so it's hard to ask about spells without listing feats and such.


Don't sweat it, a lot of Pagans have a D&D past. It's actually sometimes helpful to be able to use D&D metaphors when talking about magick. It's not actually useful for casting spells, but there are times in discussion where a "He's a troll/dwarf/elf/orc" or "Oh, yeah, I have a +3 athame!" comes in handy.


You mentioned that you take the best spells available. does this mean that you take spells that are:

Quickened in preparation or in cast?
Subvocal?
Duration increased/decreased?
more properties?
less complicated?
all the above?

please verify if it isn't too much trouble.


No trouble at all. I take the spellst that interest me the most. I've collected plenty that I know I will never use myself, but there is always the possibility one of my students may need it. Or I use them for inspiration for my own spellwork. (remember, if you steal elements from more than three spells, it's research, not plagarism!)

As far as a non-verbal componant, sure, there are many like that. But anything really helpful is probably going to use all of your senses, and that includes vocalization.

Keep 'em comin'!

Arion

[Mehangel]

Do pagans find games or books like D&D offensive later in life?
How much of D&D is real in concept of spells, history, hobbies, etc?

I have heard that Pagans at a certain stage become like gods, is there any truth to this?

[technomage]

Do pagans find games or books like D&D offensive later in life?

Some play, some don't. Heck, some are offended at D&D quite early in life.

How much of D&D is real in concept of spells, history, hobbies, etc?

None to speak of. In the earlier versions, Gygax did some research in World Religions, but his "magic" is strictly a part of the game mechanic.

I have heard that Pagans at a certain stage become like gods, is there any truth to this?

Nah, that's D&D--once you hit 20th level, if that's not godlike, it's close. :hehe:

Seriously, there are branches of Paganism where humans are viewed as related to the Gods, but nowhere that I know of do Pagans "become like gods."

[Mehangel]

I heard that there are still witch hunters, have witch hunters changed from the last time I've read about them?

[technomage]

I heard that there are still witch hunters, have witch hunters changed from the last time I've read about them?

There has been violence in Africa against supposed "witches," some as young as four years old. Like the witch hunt in Europe, there are a lot of factors--not all of which are as honest as they are claimed.

For a good overview of the Witch Hunt in Europe, I would recommend The Witching Hours (http://www.shanmonster.com/witch/) website. Do be careful, as some of the images there are disturbing.

[Mehangel]

I would recommend The Witching Hours (http://www.shanmonster.com/witch/) website. Do be careful, as some of the images there are disturbing.

Thank you for warning me before hand I had my hand on the plug just incase if the picture's were too graphic. I didn't have much time to read the first paragraph but this seems to be a useful site to answer that question.

Some people say that magic is evocation aka magic that creates something out of nothing. I personally don't believe it, but I was wondering if there are any spells that are like this?

[tmancour]

Some people say that magic is evocation aka magic that creates something out of nothing. I personally don't believe it, but I was wondering if there are any spells that are like this?

If you are talking about the material world, then I would have to say that I have not encountered anything like that. Magick is a deeply psychological art, and the things it creates most and best are creative solutions to problems. Any spell that claims to do otherwise I would find highly suspect.

Arion

[Mehangel]

I have heard that harry potter has some verbal components that have been taken from Spellbooks, does this have any truth to this?

[technomage]

I have heard that harry potter has some verbal components that have been taken from Spellbooks, does this have any truth to this?

Nope. The spells in Harry Potter are "Dog Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Latin)" translations of the "effect" the spell is intended to perform. So for instance the spell "Crucias" (a spell supposed to cause incredible pain) simply uses the Latin verb for torment.

[technomage]

Nope. The spells in Harry Potter are "Dog Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Latin)" translations of the "effect" the spell is intended to perform. So for instance the spell "Crucias" (a spell supposed to cause incredible pain) simply uses the Latin verb for torment.
Forgot to add: However, this is a common argument of the "Anti-Harry Potter" crowd. Again, it's grossly untrue, and is one of the more shameful acts of this bunch.

[tmancour]

Forgot to add: However, this is a common argument of the "Anti-Harry Potter" crowd. Again, it's grossly untrue, and is one of the more shameful acts of this bunch.

Also, you might want to consider that words from "spellbooks" aren't particularly special, to a non-mage. Any idiot can write a "spellbook" -- I've written many myself, and I'm not your average idiot.

However, when I do cast a spell (a complex series of psycho-magical manipulations) I sometimes use a verbal componant as a trigger, similar to a post-hypnotic trigger, to activate or access it. But you can use pretty much any words you want for it.

Arion

[Mehangel]

Well obviously the spells in harry potter are in latin (as I can read most latin, not to mention most languages are based off of latin, for example one of the languages I understand and read often is welsh which is based off of latin aswell), but I've seen books that That there were spells in latin about the four winds, well I think they were spells.

Anyhow, how is punishment/judgement done on those who misuse magic? Or is there no restriction on how people may use their magic?

One more thing, I've heard that people can take away magic from others, or place magic with crystals such as quartz, or in bottles, is this true or is it one more of those psychological things?

[technomage]

Anyhow, how is punishment/judgement done on those who misuse magic? Or is there no restriction on how people may use their magic?

It depends. If the person is a member of a coven or group that forbids malefic magic, that group may expell him.

One more thing, I've heard that people can take away magic from others, or place magic with crystals such as quartz, or in bottles, is this true or is it one more of those psychological things?

For some groups, this expulsion includes a ritual "locking" of the person's power. It ... well, to be blunt, it's like a ritual disfellowshipping or excommunication. It is binding, and it has definite effects.

[Mehangel]

I haven't found much in this subject but do some witches sell out other witches, well obviously it does happen sometime but I guess what I want to know is:
Are there any Famous witches that are known to sell out others are there any famous ones today?

I am sure that you've noticed that in my posts I've not often capitalized pagan or witch, and I was wondering if you find it disrespectful (as I do not wish to be disrespectful), and if you do then from now on I will capitalize them.

[technomage]

I haven't found much in this subject but do some witches sell out other witches, well obviously it does happen sometime but I guess what I want to know is:
Are there any Famous witches that are known to sell out others are there any famous ones today?

:huh: "Sell out?" I'm not sure I understand.

I am sure that you've noticed that in my posts I've not often capitalized pagan or witch, and I was wondering if you find it disrespectful (as I do not wish to be disrespectful), and if you do then from now on I will capitalize them.

Of course I'm terribly offended, and you should see the green, warty skin growing on you just any second. :zap: :lol:

Seriously, no, I'm not offended: your usage is gramatically correct. However, there are a few Wiccan "offense kleptomaniacs" running around--if they see an otherwise unattended offense, they'll take it. :lol:

[Mehangel]

:huh: "Sell out?" I'm not sure I understand.


Well, I guess what I mean is that one witch giving info on witches he or she knows to witch hunters or others who go out of their way to make life tough for witches.

I heard something that the four winds have different properties, is this just background info or is for real, and yes, concerning these matters you have often considered things like wands Psychological, but just want to know if there is a dfference?

[technomage]

Well, I guess what I mean is that one witch giving info on witches he or she knows to witch hunters or others who go out of their way to make life tough for witches.

In European history, yes: many of the accused "malefic witches" were accused by "white witches." It was not a pretty time--however, the European idea of "witchcraft" had little or nothing to do with modern witchcraft.

I heard something that the four winds have different properties, is this just background info or is for real, and yes, concerning these matters you have often considered things like wands Psychological, but just want to know if there is a dfference?

I'm going to let Arion hadle this, if he will: my bones are giving me more than a little bit of grief, and so I'm not being as clear as I would like.

[Mehangel]

I'm going to let Arion hadle this, if he will: my bones are giving me more than a little bit of grief, and so I'm not being as clear as I would like.

Whats wrong? are you ill? hurt? old? cursed?
If it is too personal I understand but I care for all especially those who have different customs then those that I have?

[technomage]

Whats wrong? are you ill? hurt? old?

I have ... well, the docs aren't sure. It acts like Rheumatoid Arthritis, or maybe like fibromyalgia, or maybe like EDS, and my doctor seems to spend a lot of time scratching his head. I've had it since I was three or so. :shrug: On days when the weather is bad, or if I've exausted myself, I tend to be in more pain than is easy to deal with. It's no big deal--like Nietszche (sp?) said, "That which does not kill us is still a pain in the butt" ... or, something like that. :hehe:

cursed?

:lol: Goodness, I hope not!

[Mehangel]

So it's like my brother who oddly enough gets ill, or weak whenever weather is brewing and it's no ordinary fealing. He KNOWS it is going to rain. My grandpa has it too. I on the other hand seem to control the weather not to say that I make it rain, it just seems that when I am in a spiritual high it rains.. ALOT.

Well, I hope you feel better soon.

[tmancour]

I heard something that the four winds have different properties, is this just background info or is for real, and yes, concerning these matters you have often considered things like wands Psychological, but just want to know if there is a dfference?


See, that's the tricky thing about magick: is the power of a particular material really important, or is it all in your head? The answer is: both. Yes, the winds do have different properties to some magi -- highly depends on the system of magick you study. For me, I'm not as into wind as I am into fire and earth. So winds don't mean as much to me. But to a coastal witch, or a desert witch, winds could be VERY important, and their properties could be profound.

Are such differences "real"? Again, depends upon who you ask. I would say that they are real if you believe them to be, but that gets back into psychology again. Damn this subjective universe we live in!



So it's like my brother who oddly enough gets ill, or weak whenever weather is brewing and it's no ordinary fealing. He KNOWS it is going to rain. My grandpa has it too. I on the other hand seem to control the weather not to say that I make it rain, it just seems that when I am in a spiritual high it rains.. ALOT.


This has actually less to do with magick and more to do with physiology and physics. When a storm front or even a rain storm comes through, it is essentially a low pressure system. When that system inflicts itself on the atmosphere, it is allowing all other gaseous/fluidic systems, such as those in the human body, to increase internal pressure as external pressure declines. This includes the little pockets of fluid within your joints as well as old scar tissue. Having a 'weather-wise' joint is not a phenomenological issue, but a physiological one.

Arion

[Mehangel]

This has actually less to do with magick and more to do with physiology and physics. When a storm front or even a rain storm comes through, it is essentially a low pressure system. When that system inflicts itself on the atmosphere, it is allowing all other gaseous/fluidic systems, such as those in the human body, to increase internal pressure as external pressure declines. This includes the little pockets of fluid within your joints as well as old scar tissue. Having a 'weather-wise' joint is not a phenomenological issue, but a physiological one.

I wasn't saying it was magic at all, as my brothers are also LDS. I wasn't saying that I thought it was magic though I am sorry if it seemed that way. I was only saying that my brother also gets sick when weather is coming. Note that some of my brothers don't believe that there is magic in the world.

anyhow, wouldn't the fire element need much wind as fire needs wind, or is the wind too much and it would blow out the fire? If I am wrong please clarify it.

[Mehangel]

I heard that that there are vampires..
I wish to know about the vampires and how or if what rumors of the legends concerning vampires are true such as:

Does stabbing a vampire with a wooden stake kill him/her?

Will stabbing it with silver knives/stakes make a difference?

Will daylight have an effect on them or is it that they simply don't like it?

How long has there been vampires?

If there are vampires I have no doubt there are other undead such as Wraiths, am I true?

Are vampires immortal as they don't die of old age?

If so do they have to move to advoid attention?

Is being a vampire also something Psychological?

Is the sucking blood thing something exaggerated?

I doubt that vampires sleep in coffins, but still I am courious.

[technomage]

I heard that that there are vampires..

Not in the sense that Bram Stoker wrote about, certainly. Try the Wikipeadia article on vampires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire)--it will give a very complete picture.

[tmancour]

I heard that that there are vampires..

(*sigh*) I guess it's my turn.


I wish to know about the vampires and how or if what rumors of the legends concerning vampires are true such as:

Does stabbing a vampire with a wooden stake kill him/her?


That will put a damper on pretty much anyone's day.

Will stabbing it with silver knives/stakes make a difference?

That's gonna piss off pretty much anyone you do that to.


Will daylight have an effect on them or is it that they simply don't like it?


Depends on what kind of skin they have. For dry skin, yes, it causes an ashiness that has to be addressed by proper skin care. Oily skin: pretty much OK. What we call Combination Skin? See your skin care professional.



How long has there been vampires?


The next one will be the first.


If there are vampires I have no doubt there are other undead such as Wraiths, am I true?


Are you true? I hope not. Are you correct? No. Vampires, as you think of them, are creations of folklore and Joss Whedon.


Are vampires immortal as they don't die of old age?


No, they just look really good. I've heard they had some work done.


If so do they have to move to advoid attention?


Yes, there is a secret society of vampire hunters, usually known by their Itailian name: La Paparazzi. You can find lots of info on the net about them. They seek to capture irrefutable proof of vampires on film. Since vampires don't film well, they usually just get pics of the celebreties they hang around.


Is being a vampire also something Psychological?


Getting warmer . . .


Is the sucking blood thing something exaggerated?


Getting cooler . . .

I doubt that vampires sleep in coffins, but still I am courious.

Some do, some don't. Depends on how kinky they are.

[Mehangel]

So, vampires don't exist (or thats what I got out of the site) thats good news. :woohoo:
Well, I just had to ask about the vampires because some friend of mine said that he had to pass some test with vampires, in some way or another and because of his strange sense of humor I didn't know if he was joking or not and I didn't have the time to ask him about it.

So from what I've taken in you consider the Wikipeadia as an accurate source of information.

What is the purpose of having different inscense sticks and different candles?

[technomage]

So, vampires don't exist (or thats what I got out of the site) thats good news. :woohoo:
Well, I just had to ask about the vampires because some friend of mine said that he had to pass some test with vampires, in some way or another and because of his strange sense of humor I didn't know if he was joking or not and I didn't have the time to ask him about it.

Not necessarly--there is a contemporary sub-culture that refers to themselves as vampires. There's more information here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire#The_vampire_subculture).

So from what I've taken in you consider the Wikipeadia as an accurate source of information.

Reasonably so--of course, like any other source, they have their moments.

What is the purpose of having different inscense sticks and different candles?

It can range from different magical purposes to esthetics.

Or it can be like I once told some students of mine--the asked me why I was using blue candles for a particular ritual. I swore them all to secrecy, then advised them "Because I happen to have blue candles." :wink:

[Mehangel]

When I was asking about scents or what they were made of, not necessarily the color, but I think I got your point.

In computer games, you often see different prigmatic colors spurt out of the wizards hands, this may be just to catch the attention of others to attract them to the game, but my question is do or can witches make that light spurt out of their hands? Just a simple question in my opinion but one I wanted to ask for a long time.

[technomage]

When I was asking about scents or what they were made of, not necessarily the color, but I think I got your point.

In computer games, you often see different prigmatic colors spurt out of the wizards hands, this may be just to catch the attention of others to attract them to the game, but my question is do or can witches make that light spurt out of their hands? Just a simple question in my opinion but one I wanted to ask for a long time.
:lol: No ... and yes, depending on whom you ask.

I don't think you'll ever find a Wiccan who can shoot visible light from their hand--light that can be reliably captured by a camera. On the other hand, some Wiccans may visualize healing energy coming from their hands as part of a healing, and this is visible for some of those who were in the proper state of trance-consciousness.

[Mehangel]

On the other hand, some Wiccans may visualize healing energy coming from their hands as part of a healing, and this is visible for some of those who were in the proper state of trance-consciousness.

So its like seeing Auras', anyhow some friends think it is wrong to tell someone their aura saying that it will end up ruining their life if they are told it and not found by self? is this true?

[technomage]

So its like seeing Auras',

Very much so.

anyhow some friends think it is wrong to tell someone their aura saying that it will end up ruining their life if they are told it and not found by self? is this true?

Um ... no. And your friend is being rather silly ... but I didn't say that. :wink:

[Mehangel]

While on the topic of Auras, I would like to ask this, Can one hide ones Aura or disquise it? The book I read about didn't seem real clear on that subject.

Do Pagans believe in intellegent life outside of earth, I am guessing that you do, or is it simply personal belief (some do, some don't)?

[tmancour]

While on the topic of Auras, I would like to ask this, Can one hide ones Aura or disquise it? The book I read about didn't seem real clear on that subject.


Some talented and skilled people can do this quite easily at will.


Do Pagans believe in intellegent life outside of earth, I am guessing that you do, or is it simply personal belief (some do, some don't)?
[/quote]

Do you mean UFOs or Faeries?

[jrstruthers]

:lol: No ... and yes, depending on whom you ask.

I don't think you'll ever find a Wiccan who can shoot visible light from their hand--light that can be reliably captured by a camera. On the other hand, some Wiccans may visualize healing energy coming from their hands as part of a healing, and this is visible for some of those who were in the proper state of trance-consciousness.

Never seen a witch spout light out of their hands, but I have had the rather odd experience of a healer's hands becoming unbearably hot (consistently) while they do body work. Being a scientist type, I found this to be very interesting.

[Mehangel]

Do you mean UFOs or Faeries?

Well, because I've seen sites that express how people are constantly searching for fey, I have no doubt that some pagans believe in Faeries. But, I should've been more specific, I was meaning UFOs at the time.

I know that different branches of Paganism have different views in this question, but how do pagans believe human life was created?

[tmancour]

Well, because I've seen sites that express how people are constantly searching for fey, I have no doubt that some pagans believe in Faeries. But, I should've been more specific, I was meaning UFOs at the time.

I know that different branches of Paganism have different views in this question, but how do pagans believe human life was created?


Through the usual prevailing scientific evidence. We are far, far less concerned with creation/demiurge than the Abrahamics. Our point about religion is that it is most helpful here and now, and the murky past is either inspiration or baggage.

Some Pagans believe in UFOs, some don't.

Arion

[Mehangel]

What do you think is the number 1 reason why christians become pagans? I am asking this because it happens so often, though not in mine own, so I am never told..I am guessing that it is because many christian churches offer little truth and they search it out. Am I right?

[Durthorin]

What do you think is the number 1 reason why christians become pagans? I am asking this because it happens so often, though not in mine own, so I am never told..I am guessing that it is because many christian churches offer little truth and they search it out. Am I right?

The reason varies with the pagan. But as a "personal" answer. Its because my pagan faith is a living part of my life. It was and is a direct interaction with the Divine for me.

Danu Bless, Dur

[Mehangel]

I know that this next question that I am about to ask is not exactly directed to pagans, but according to Celtic Mythology or the Pagan religion what happened to the Faeries? I've looked in one book and it says that they were hunted down and I looked in another and it says that they still exist? I personally don't believe in fey though I really would like to, but a current discussion with a friend had me wish to ask.

[jrstruthers]

I know that this next question that I am about to ask is not exactly directed to pagans, but according to Celtic Mythology or the Pagan religion what happened to the Faeries? I've looked in one book and it says that they were hunted down and I looked in another and it says that they still exist? I personally don't believe in fey though I really would like to, but a current discussion with a friend had me wish to ask.

To my knowledge, there are no Celtic myths that deal with the Fey being hunted down and "eliminated. Some myths (like the Selkie, Ban-sidhe, ect.) have tehm still active in our world.

Some Pagan denominations put a large emphasis on working with nature spirits and refer to them as Faery.

James

[Mehangel]

How is the Pagan list of growth spread out? For example in my religion it is simular to this
Decon, Teacher, Priest, etc.. Or is there no groups?

[jrstruthers]

How is the Pagan list of growth spread out? For example in my religion it is simular to this
Decon, Teacher, Priest, etc.. Or is there no groups?

Once again, depnds on the denomination. In many Wiccan paths it goes something like; Dedicant (Committed in a program of development of faith...typically toward initiation), First through Third Degree Initates (All considered clergy, Priest or Priestess). Community or Coven leaders who have completed training for the Third are often called High Priests/Priestesses, although some covens consider this a working title for one who leads or organizes ritual.

In my path, Initiatory training requirs a minimum year and a day of study for each degree (typically a lot more). There is a surprising amount of stuff to learn.

James

[Mehangel]

I hate to say it but, now all my questions have been answered and I have a greater understanding. Well, I do have some small questions but those I can have answered by my friends if needs be. Thanks to all who clarified these things. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

[technomage]

I hate to say it but, now all my questions have been answered and I have a greater understanding. Well, I do have some small questions but those I can have answered by my friends if needs be. Thanks to all who clarified these things. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
More than welcome. If anything else comes up, give a shout!