Gehenna or living forever..

[Yamyam]

I'm busy with the Watchtower Society and the people in it since about two months. I notice that their most important subject and goal is to live forever in a paradise on earth. They say that once you're dead there will be absolutely no conscience, and if you get the surrection you'll have 1000 years to choose for or against God and if you choose for God you'll live forever in a paradise, and if you choose against God you'll be destroyed and that's it. Now I wonder...

1a. What's the difference anyway? If I'm dead I can't think nor feel nor be conscious about ANYTHING so I won't care or even be able to care about a paradise I could live in. I can only care about it right now, when I'm alive or in those 1000 years. But once I'm dead it doesn't matter anymore, so actually the whole thing doesn't matter.
1b + So what's the punishment then, what makes the balance? If you've been a very bad person and you'll die and won't be resurrected or after your resurrection you're dead again, this time forever, you might still feel you had a nice life, and you haven't had any punishment or guilt or whatever what makes things right. I mean: in this world life isn't fair. Some get a lot, some get less. I'm sure you'll agree. I believe in righteousness, and because it's not here, it has to be somewhere else, possibly after death. But if the bad people are just destroyed, and the good people go to paradise->no, I just don't believe that's it what makes things right. I also don't believe that bad persons should go to hell forever though.

2. I principally feel I do not wish to live forever because once you chose you'll never have the option to die anymore. You're forced to live, whether you like it or not. Forever, which seems like a damn long time. Allthough you might never want to die once you live in paradise and everything is oh so great...like I already said, it's about the principal. Being mortal gives me a choice, gives me reason to live, gives me meaning to life. If I need to live forever, I can never die, and I just want to have the option to die. I might prefer to be destroyed and not have a life after then have to live forever. Of course the people from the WTG don't understand this, I hope some of you do.

Summary:
1.a If you're dead you have no consciousness anymore so there is no need for paradise.
1b. I don't believe the balance of good and bad is made by destroying the bad persons and putting the good persons in paradise. (also because when you're dead there's nothing to care about anymore or feel)
2. If you chose to live in paradise and to live forever you can never rechoose, you can never choose to end you're life, or be mortal. I consider that inpropiet, a bad thing, a forcement.

I would like to know what you think about my doubts and considerations and if you have an answer to it or something that has to do with it you wish to share.

that word used in that manner is innapropriate language

[Comfortablynumb]

Hi Yamyam,


Summary:
1.a If you're dead you have no consciousness anymore so there is no need for paradise.

I'm not sure what being unconscious has to do with it. When you sleep at night you're unconscious, yet presumable you still want to wake up in the morning? When you're under anaesthetic, you still want to live don't you? The state of being unconscious doesn't suddenly mean that you've slipped out of existence somehow.

Jesus compared death to sleep. Christ is the way back from that "sleep" to life.


1b. I don't believe the balance of good and bad is made by destroying the bad persons and putting the good persons in paradise. (also because when you're dead there's nothing to care about anymore or feel)

If the dead are "conscious of nothing at all" then surely that must impact upon the balance of good and bad? If a room contains ten people, five good and five bad, and then the five bad are removed, how would that affect the balance of the room? Surely there would be a swing towards good?


2. If you chose to live in paradise and to live forever you can never rechoose, you can never choose to end you're life, or be mortal. I consider that inpropiet, a bad thing, a forcement.

I think you're confusing everlasting life with immortality. The two things are not the same and JW's don't believe that everyone on the earth becomes immortal.

And you're reasoning that not being able to commit suicide is a bad thing eludes me somewhat...lol

[Dracula Girl]

2. I principally feel I do not wish to live forever because once you chose you'll never have the option to die anymore. You're forced to live, whether you like it or not. Forever, which seems like a * edited by a moderator * long time. Allthough you might never want to die once you live in paradise and everything is oh so great...like I already said, it's about the principal. Being mortal gives me a choice, gives me reason to live, gives me meaning to life. If I need to live forever, I can never die, and I just want to have the option to die. I might prefer to be destroyed and not have a life after then have to live forever. Of course the people from the WTG don't understand this, I hope some of you do.
I used to feel afraid of eternity when I was younger. I couldn't imaging being happy just living in the same place doing the same things I would be doing in heaven. Basically, if there was anything to be gained as a Christian for eternity, it was an eternity I couldn't imagine remaining happy in verses something that was worse. I decided to just not think about that as much for a while because heaven is just supposed to be a good happy place even if I can't imagine that.

Over the last several years, the fact that heaven is a place I would not want to leave or to have changed became more real to me as I read more about it in the Bible and grew as a Christian. Heaven is going to be a whole new world and everyone in it will be completely transformed from the state we entered this world in. Revelation chapter 21:1-8 describes how God will wipe away every tear and there will be no more sorrow not pain and the former things will have passes away. All of the things that could make a person want to leave or die, they won't be in heaven. Those in heaven will have such joy and fulfillment from being so much in the presence of God that not only will it not end, they will never want it to end.

"I might prefer to be destroyed and not have a life after then have to live forever."
That destruction doesn't mean one won't exist any more. It's like ruined, damaged beyond all hope. It's the cost of existing separated from God, exist as less than what one is now or could have been, the pain of recognizing what could have been, and the knowledge that it will never be undone.

Spiritual life comes from God and spiritual death comes from separation from God. If anything good comes from being with God, it's not worth it to choose to be apart from Him because we don't yet grasp eternity in its completeness.

[Yamyam]

Hi Yamyam,



I'm not sure what being unconscious has to do with it. When you sleep at night you're unconscious, yet presumable you still want to wake up in the morning? When you're under anaesthetic, you still want to live don't you? The state of being unconscious doesn't suddenly mean that you've slipped out of existence somehow.

Jesus compared death to sleep. Christ is the way back from that "sleep" to life.



If the dead are "conscious of nothing at all" then surely that must impact upon the balance of good and bad? If a room contains ten people, five good and five bad, and then the five bad are removed, how would that affect the balance of the room? Surely there would be a swing towards good?



I think you're confusing everlasting life with immortality. The two things are not the same and JW's don't believe that everyone on the earth becomes immortal.

And you're reasoning that not being able to commit suicide is a bad thing eludes me somewhat...lol

I agree with the unconciousness, but I discussed it with the Jehovah's Witnesses who come to my house every week and they said you don't dream or whatever; they presume it's more like losing existence than just being unconscious. Next time I'll ask again what exactly it is to be in "Sjeool" (it's Dutch, don't know the English word).

Oh yes, your example of the room thing: it would be a swing towards good for them. That's an overall balance. I think the balance should be there all together AND individual. If a bad person just disappears, he had no punishment, grief whatsoever. If a good person goes to paradise, and live forever he just forgets about the pain he's been through? I personally would feel the balance is made if someone who for example killed my daughter would FEEL what he did, would KNOW the pain of my daughter, me, and everyone who miss her, if he would understand. if the murderer would just be gone, sure that would be nice, he wouldn't be able to kill anymore, but then what? He still could have had a great life in his opinion and never felt any grief whatsoever. I consider that wrong. I just think there's a better way.

Oh, can you tell me more about the immortal thing and everlasting life? I thought people just had to live forever once you chose for God.

[Yamyam]

I used to feel afraid of eternity when I was younger. I couldn't imaging being happy just living in the same place doing the same things I would be doing in heaven. Basically, if there was anything to be gained as a Christian for eternity, it was an eternity I couldn't imagine remaining happy in verses something that was worse. I decided to just not think about that as much for a while because heaven is just supposed to be a good happy place even if I can't imagine that.

Over the last several years, the fact that heaven is a place I would not want to leave or to have changed became more real to me as I read more about it in the Bible and grew as a Christian. Heaven is going to be a whole new world and everyone in it will be completely transformed from the state we entered this world in. Revelation chapter 21:1-8 describes how God will wipe away every tear and there will be no more sorrow not pain and the former things will have passes away. All of the things that could make a person want to leave or die, they won't be in heaven. Those in heaven will have such joy and fulfillment from being so much in the presence of God that not only will it not end, they will never want it to end.

"I might prefer to be destroyed and not have a life after then have to live forever."
That destruction doesn't mean one won't exist any more. It's like ruined, damaged beyond all hope. It's the cost of existing separated from God, exist as less than what one is now or could have been, the pain of recognizing what could have been, and the knowledge that it will never be undone.

Spiritual life comes from God and spiritual death comes from separation from God. If anything good comes from being with God, it's not worth it to choose to be apart from Him because we don't yet grasp eternity in its completeness.

Oh, as I learned from the Jehovah's Witnesses it's not existing any more, not like being separated from God. (Gehenna) Is that not the view of Jehovah's Witnesses or am I wrong? I personally think your view of that destruction comes more to it, and is the right way to look at it, but it's not the way the WTG teached me when visiting me. They told me about complete destruction, about just not being there anymore, no consciousness, no nothing, fire and a place where children were burned.

[Dracula Girl]

Oh, as I learned from the Jehovah's Witnesses it's not existing any more, not like being separated from God. (Gehenna) Is that not the view of Jehovah's Witnesses or am I wrong? I personally think your view of that destruction comes more to it, and is the right way to look at it, but it's not the way the WTG teached me when visiting me. They told me about complete destruction, about just not being there anymore, no consciousness, no nothing, fire and a place where children were burned.
It probably is what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe. I just got the impression that maybe you were thinking of taking their view on it. That's all.

[Krusader]

It probably is what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe. I just got the impression that maybe you were thinking of taking their view on it. That's all.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe in annihilationism - the cessation of any existence, bodily or spiritual. They believe that those who have not had an opportunity to hear the "kingdom" message will be resurrected and given a "second chance." However, JWs must remain faithful to the anointed class in this life, in order to get an opportunity to be resurrected. At death, JWs believe they cease to exist in any way. The Bible, of course, says to fear those who can kill the body but not the soul - implying that the soul has a separate existence from the body.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Hi Yamyam. Let's look at your questions.


I'm busy with the Watchtower Society and the people in it since about two months. I notice that their most important subject and goal is to live forever in a paradise on earth. They say that once you're dead there will be absolutely no conscience, and if you get the surrection you'll have 1000 years to choose for or against God and if you choose for God you'll live forever in a paradise, and if you choose against God you'll be destroyed and that's it. Now I wonder...

I wonder first off are you aware that this was a change in their doctrine. Search before 1935 and you won't find this doctrine of Paradise Earth. Also, they use Ecclesiastes to show there is no consciousness. However, Ecclesiastes is written from the pagan point of view really. It's a picture of life without God. It's kind of a reverse argument for the faith.


1a. What's the difference anyway? If I'm dead I can't think nor feel nor be conscious about ANYTHING so I won't care or even be able to care about a paradise I could live in. I can only care about it right now, when I'm alive or in those 1000 years. But once I'm dead it doesn't matter anymore, so actually the whole thing doesn't matter.

You're right there. Keep that kind of thinking up.


1b + So what's the punishment then, what makes the balance? If you've been a very bad person and you'll die and won't be resurrected or after your resurrection you're dead again, this time forever, you might still feel you had a nice life, and you haven't had any punishment or guilt or whatever what makes things right. I mean: in this world life isn't fair. Some get a lot, some get less. I'm sure you'll agree. I believe in righteousness, and because it's not here, it has to be somewhere else, possibly after death. But if the bad people are just destroyed, and the good people go to paradise->no, I just don't believe that's it what makes things right. I also don't believe that bad persons should go to hell forever though.

These are deep issues so try to bear with me.

First off, every person has the image of God regardless of what they do, and God will respect their choice. Because they bear that image, they have value for who they are and not what they do. We can't then destroy them at the end for what they did when their value rests on who they are. That switches their value from essence to function.

Secondly, you are correct. It's not really a punishment. If annihilationism is true and I get to God and he says I didn't make it, I'll just say "darn" hopefully before I'm poofed.

Lastly, the reason people go to Hell forever is because of the nature of their sin and not the length of the sin. I could knock on my neighbor's door and pull out a gun and blow their brains out in less than a minute. I could spend a day and a half planning how to break into their house and steal their TV. Which is the worst crime?

Hell is forever because God is an infinite being. A crime against God is an infinite crime. It has a price that can never be fully paid.

C.S. Lewis stated that the gates of Hell are locked from the inside. People go to Hell not for one choice, but because they lived a constant life of rejecting God. In the end, they will be hardened to that state, just as Christians spent a constant life of glorifying God.


2. I principally feel I do not wish to live forever because once you chose you'll never have the option to die anymore. You're forced to live, whether you like it or not. Forever, which seems like a * edited by a moderator * long time. Allthough you might never want to die once you live in paradise and everything is oh so great...like I already said, it's about the principal. Being mortal gives me a choice, gives me reason to live, gives me meaning to life. If I need to live forever, I can never die, and I just want to have the option to die. I might prefer to be destroyed and not have a life after then have to live forever. Of course the people from the WTG don't understand this, I hope some of you do.

If all you did was ride on clouds and play harps and sing all day long, I could relate. But what a picture of Heaven is that? A heaven that's so wonderful you'd have to commit suicide to escape? Have you ever considered the work of Peter Kreeft? www.peterkreeft.com. He's written a great book called "Heaven: The Heart's Deepest Longing" and his website has writings with an FAQ answering 35 different questions on Heaven. A lot of people have a huge misconception of what Heaven is like. Kreeft clears that up quite well.


1.a If you're dead you have no consciousness anymore so there is no need for paradise.

Not so. You are more than your body.


1b. I don't believe the balance of good and bad is made by destroying the bad persons and putting the good persons in paradise. (also because when you're dead there's nothing to care about anymore or feel)

It might make things better for the good, but that doesn't make it right. God honors the individual choice of all.


2. If you chose to live in paradise and to live forever you can never rechoose, you can never choose to end you're life, or be mortal. I consider that inpropiet, a bad thing, a forcement.

Only because you don't have a full view of Heaven yet.


I would like to know what you think about my doubts and considerations and if you have an answer to it or something that has to do with it you wish to share.

I think you're asking the right questions.

[Yamyam]

Hi Yamyam. Let's look at your questions.



I wonder first off are you aware that this was a change in their doctrine. Search before 1935 and you won't find this doctrine of Paradise Earth. Also, they use Ecclesiastes to show there is no consciousness. However, Ecclesiastes is written from the pagan point of view really. It's a picture of life without God. It's kind of a reverse argument for the faith.



I wasn't aware of that no. I do know that there are many changes made in their doctrine trough the years, and some striking ones I wrote in my questions/doubts WTG document. :teeth:

You're right there. Keep that kind of thinking up.




These are deep issues so try to bear with me.

First off, every person has the image of God regardless of what they do, and God will respect their choice. Because they bear that image, they have value for who they are and not what they do. We can't then destroy them at the end for what they did when their value rests on who they are. That switches their value from essence to function.

Secondly, you are correct. It's not really a punishment. If annihilationism is true and I get to God and he says I didn't make it, I'll just say "darn" hopefully before I'm poofed.

Lastly, the reason people go to Hell forever is because of the nature of their sin and not the length of the sin. I could knock on my neighbor's door and pull out a gun and blow their brains out in less than a minute. I could spend a day and a half planning how to break into their house and steal their TV. Which is the worst crime?

Can you explain the bold text? I don't understand what you mean. :blush:
I find the gunthing worse. But about length: wouldn't it be more wrong to torment someone two hours in stead of one?



Hell is forever because God is an infinite being. A crime against God is an infinite crime. It has a price that can never be fully paid.

C.S. Lewis stated that the gates of Hell are locked from the inside. People go to Hell not for one choice, but because they lived a constant life of rejecting God. In the end, they will be hardened to that state, just as Christians spent a constant life of glorifying God.


Interesting. But I just can't believe it. Why can't a crime be fully paid?



If all you did was ride on clouds and play harps and sing all day long, I could relate. But what a picture of Heaven is that? A heaven that's so wonderful you'd have to commit suicide to escape? Have you ever considered the work of Peter Kreeft? www.peterkreeft.com. He's written a great book called "Heaven: The Heart's Deepest Longing" and his website has writings with an FAQ answering 35 different questions on Heaven. A lot of people have a huge misconception of what Heaven is like. Kreeft clears that up quite well.


You might think I see heaven as a place with clouds and harps and angels, but I don't. I see heaven as a place close(r) to God than hell, where you can do all the things you like/love, and well..I don't know furthermore really. The bible doesn't say that much about the insides of heaven right? I'll look at that site you linked me.



Not so. You are more than your body.


I was saying that from the view of a Jehovah's witness.




Only because you don't have a full view of Heaven yet.


Maybe. Can a human have that anyway?


I think you're asking the right questions. [/QUOTE]

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Can you explain the bold text? I don't understand what you mean. :blush:
I find the gunthing worse. But about length: wouldn't it be more wrong to torment someone two hours in stead of one?

Sure. Let's take this computer I'm on. If the computer does not work, I do not have a sentimental relationship to it. My computer only has value in so far as it functions the way I want it to. It's good as long as it serves its purpose.

Are people the same way? Are people that are in comas any less human because they don't function? No. They have value regardless of what they do. But if you destroy people, you're saying "What you did determines that you have no value in existing. That's an immoral way to treat people.

Also, it's torment, but not torture. Torture is external. The fires are not literal. God is not literally burning people up. God is leaving people alone. They are in torment from their own lives. They have wanted God to leave them alone forever, and he does just that.






Interesting. But I just can't believe it. Why can't a crime be fully paid?

Because it's infinite. Philosophically, you cannot pay it. Imagine having an infinite debt. You could pay one cent every day for eternity and never pay it off, because you cannot complete an infinite set.




You might think I see heaven as a place with clouds and harps and angels, but I don't. I see heaven as a place close(r) to God than hell, where you can do all the things you like/love, and well..I don't know furthermore really. The bible doesn't say that much about the insides of heaven right? I'll look at that site you linked me.

That'd help. Heaven and Hell aren't so much locations as ways of life. Hell is the self-centered life with nothing but self. Heaven is the God-centered life with God and all that God values.







[QUOTE=yamyamMaybe. Can a human have that anyway?
[/QUOTE]

Nope. But we can dream.

[Yamyam]

Sure. Let's take this computer I'm on. If the computer does not work, I do not have a sentimental relationship to it. My computer only has value in so far as it functions the way I want it to. It's good as long as it serves its purpose.

Are people the same way? Are people that are in comas any less human because they don't function? No. They have value regardless of what they do. But if you destroy people, you're saying "What you did determines that you have no value in existing. That's an immoral way to treat people.

Also, it's torment, but not torture. Torture is external. The fires are not literal. God is not literally burning people up. God is leaving people alone. They are in torment from their own lives. They have wanted God to leave them alone forever, and he does just that.

Because it's infinite. Philosophically, you cannot pay it. Imagine having an infinite debt. You could pay one cent every day for eternity and never pay it off, because you cannot complete an infinite set.

That'd help. Heaven and Hell aren't so much locations as ways of life. Hell is the self-centered life with nothing but self. Heaven is the God-centered life with God and all that God values.

Nope. But we can dream.

How do you know it's not literal?
Why is it infinite? "Because God is an infinite being" is a vague answer to me. I don't understand why it should be infinite.

Your description of Hell and Heaven sounds nice, but it's vague too. I still don't know what it'll be like. What can I do up there, how does it look like, how about pain, etc...

[Krusader]

How do you know it's not literal?
Why is it infinite? "Because God is an infinite being" is a vague answer to me. I don't understand why it should be infinite.

Your description of Hell and Heaven sounds nice, but it's vague too. I still don't know what it'll be like. What can I do up there, how does it look like, how about pain, etc...

When Jesus described hell, he used Hebraic hyperbole. This was a rabbinical teaching method. For instance, He likened hell to Gehenna, which was a garbage dump outside the gates of Jerusalem. He likened it to fire, and so forth. These descriptions of hell by the Lord need not be taken literally, but they explain clearly that hell is a painful place, a place of darkness and a place of eternal punishment (separation from God).

Other Hebraic heyperboles used by the Lord include cutting off your hand or plucking out your eye if they offend God. Does anybody believe these teachings were not hyperbolic?

[Yamyam]

When Jesus described hell, he used Hebraic hyperbole. This was a rabbinical teaching method. For instance, He likened hell to Gehenna, which was a garbage dump outside the gates of Jerusalem. He likened it to fire, and so forth. These descriptions of hell by the Lord need not be taken literally, but they explain clearly that hell is a painful place, a place of darkness and a place of eternal punishment (separation from God).

Other Hebraic heyperboles used by the Lord include cutting off your hand or plucking out your eye if they offend God. Does anybody believe these teachings were not hyperbolic?

Ok. How you recognise a pronouncement as a Hebraic hyperbole in the Bible?
And another question...Hell as being totally separated from God...aren't many people in the world already? What would be the difference for them?

[Krusader]

Ok. How you recognise a pronouncement as a Hebraic hyperbole in the Bible?
And another question...Hell as being totally separated from God...aren't many people in the world already? What would be the difference for them?

Hebraic hyperboles are in a class by themselves. You can see them used not only by Jesus but in the collateral rabbinical writings. It simply placing an emphasis on a particular truth by using terminology that is hyperbolic. It was a teaching tool.

Nobody living on earth is separated from the presence of God, since God is omnipresent (this is something JWs deny, by the way). As long as one has breath, the Spirit of God can still speak the small whisper of "come unto me." In other words, where there is life there is hope. But should a person pass from this life, having denied the Gospel of Christ, there is no hope - and that person is eternally separated not only physically, but spiritually, from the presence of God.

If you'd like to know more about the use of hebraic hyperbole in the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the NT, please do a "Google" search for "Hebraic Hyperbole." A lot will come up. The Romans have some especially good stuff on it.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

How do you know it's not literal?
Why is it infinite? "Because God is an infinite being" is a vague answer to me. I don't understand why it should be infinite.

Your description of Hell and Heaven sounds nice, but it's vague too. I still don't know what it'll be like. What can I do up there, how does it look like, how about pain, etc...

Simple. It's a violation of God's holiness. The crime is infinite because it's against a being of infinite value. To have any payment less than infinite satisfy it would be to lower God.

And Crusader is right. Consider fire and darkness. They don't go together. Also, God still has many clues of who he is here and the chance for repentance. None of that in Hell. There will be no good thing there.

[Skippy]

And another question...Hell as being totally separated from God...aren't many people in the world already? What would be the difference for them?
Good point! You are correct, the people who will be separated from God after death are already separated from Him in life. The major difference is they either do not accept that God is real or they do not believe that there is anything after death and AFTER they have died the truth will be known. Unfortunately for them, it will be too late to make a difference at that point as to where they will spend eternity.

I heard a preacher recently say that "a person begins "everlasting life" at the moment you are saved, not at your physical death." Death then, is just the next step in the continuation in your eternal life.

Skippy

[Yamyam]

Good point! You are correct, the people who will be separated from God after death are already separated from Him in life. The major difference is they either do not accept that God is real or they do not believe that there is anything after death and AFTER they have died the truth will be known. Unfortunately for them, it will be too late to make a difference at that point as to where they will spend eternity.

I heard a preacher recently say that "a person begins "everlasting life" at the moment you are saved, not at your physical death." Death then, is just the next step in the continuation in your eternal life.

Skippy

But wouldn't it be possible for one who denied God in this life to have a nice afterlife even when they now KNOW that it was a bad choice? In this life it wasn't a problem for them, why should it be in Hell?

By the way: God might be an infinite being but he could create a temporary life for humans, I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for an infinite almighty Being to make a life afterlife temporary.

[Skippy]

Simple. It's a violation of God's holiness. The crime is infinite because it's against a being of infinite value. To have any payment less than infinite satisfy it would be to lower God.

And Crusader is right. Consider fire and darkness. They don't go together. Also, God still has many clues of who he is here and the chance for repentance. None of that in Hell. There will be no good thing there.
Good stuff on the infinite punishment, Apologia, haven't heard that in a while but I think you are exactly right. I do have one small thing to discuss on the other issue which came up in a discussion I had with a JW who I used to work with.

He posed the question: "If a spirit is intangible, how would fire do anything to it which would be considered torture?" My reply at that point was, "Duh, I don't know, but as I undertand it that is exactly what happens." Over the next few days, I read a passage in Exodus that gave me the perfect answer. Exodus 3:2 says, "There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up." There are other biblical instances where spiritual fire was selective in what it consumed, and even one instance where God chose not to burn three individuals in a real fire.

So, I can't say that I fully understand how the soul will be dealt with in Hell, but I am sure that God can and will do what He wishes to do.

Skippy

[Skippy]

But wouldn't it be possible for one who denied God in this life to have a nice afterlife even when they now KNOW that it was a bad choice? In this life it wasn't a problem for them, why should it be in Hell?

By the way: God might be an infinite being but he could create a temporary life for humans, I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for an infinite almighty Being to make a life afterlife temporary.
Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..." For that to be true, man would have to have been made with an eternal aspect (soul or spirit). So, after a bodily death, the eternal part of your being will spend eternity somewhere.

Soemthing for thought... If God was into totally destroying His creation when the creature displeased Him, why would He have cast out Lucifer and the other angels which followed him? Why not annihilate them and save man from the destructive influences of them?

[Skippy]

But wouldn't it be possible for one who denied God in this life to have a nice afterlife even when they now KNOW that it was a bad choice? In this life it wasn't a problem for them, why should it be in Hell?
No. Imagine you buy a lottery ticket, write down the numbers then burn it. That night your numbers are drawn and you realize you threw away 100 million dollars - never have another need in your life you couldn't meet financially. THAT dissapointment would be nothing compared to seeing Heaven and The Creator in His Glory and then having to spend eternity away from that place and Him.

Skippy

[Yamyam]

Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..." For that to be true, man would have to have been made with an eternal aspect (soul or spirit). So, after a bodily death, the eternal part of your being will spend eternity somewhere.

Soemthing for thought... If God was into totally destroying His creation when the creature displeased Him, why would He have cast out Lucifer and the other angels which followed him? Why not annihilate them and save man from the destructive influences of them?

As JW's put it: so that God would proove to everyone, so that everyone and everything would know that God was right and the Devil was wrong and God's the right choice. To make up the strive question. (bad translation, last sentence, probably)
I find it quite childish. :ahem:
People have to suffer because of the higher aim. Couldn't God think of another solvement?

By the way: why do you think God didn't destroy Lucifer and the other angels right away?

[Yamyam]

No. Imagine you buy a lottery ticket, write down the numbers then burn it. That night your numbers are drawn and you realize you threw away 100 million dollars - never have another need in your life you couldn't meet financially. THAT dissapointment would be nothing compared to seeing Heaven and The Creator in His Glory and then having to spend eternity away from that place and Him.

Skippy

Hmm, I wouldn't care much about the lottery I think. :wink: Only because I would love to give 90 million away to charity :teeth: and now it probably goes to some idiot who buys a big villa and a lot of cars for himself from it.

Can you explain further?
What's so bad about begin away from the Creator when you never wanted to be with Him in the first place?

[Skippy]

Hmm, I wouldn't care much about the lottery I think. :wink: Only because I would love to give 90 million away to charity :teeth: and now it probably goes to some idiot who buys a big villa and a lot of cars for himself from it.
Historically (in the States) yu are correct. Lottery winners usually end up bankrupt within a few years. :bawl:

What's so bad about begin away from the Creator when you never wanted to be with Him in the first place?
Do you have children? I have two, they are 15 and 13. Before they were born I couldn't imagine how much my life would change...except I knew that my wife and I would not be totally free to do what WE wanted to until they were old enough to move out (selfish, I know). Now, I could not imagine life without my children. It took me experiencing each child for just a short time actually, for me to know that I couldn't be happy ever again if I was separated from them permanently. I've been married 19+ years and I feel the same way about my wife.

That may not make sense to you...maybe it is a pet or your personal security or your parents or your career that you don't feel that you could live without. Multiply the joy or security those people/things bring you many times and that is what it will be like in Heaven. Think about knowing that joy/security and having it taken away...even if you never knew it before, you would still have the regret of knowing that your decision is what is keeping you separated from that joy/security.
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"In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." John 14:2-3