Opinions: Is there such a thing as a just war?

[Alden]

Here's a topic that is a bit politics/policy, and a bit theology.

As we head (possibly) into the next war, we as Christians should be asking ourselves some hard questions. Many churches, at least in America, seem to wholeheartedly support the possible war with Iraq.

The questions that I pose are:

What is a just war from the Christian perspective?

What is the proper conduct/guidelines for our military?

How should these views affect the way that we participate in gov't? In other words, what kind of political activism is appropriate?

In the past, we have had to fight for causes that are just. Fighting the threat of Fascism in WWII is something that comes to mind.

In light of that just cause, was the Allied firebombing of cities like Hamburg and Dresden justified?

Your opinions here.

[GrayPilgrim]

Alden:
In light of that just cause, was the Allied firebombing of cities like Hamburg and Dresden justified?


I do beleive there is such a thing as just war, however, these two act were reprehenisble. The Allies knew that by Feb. 13, 1945 the German war machine was done for, Hitler's last gamble Wacht am Rhein, had failed . They knew it was only a matter of time before the Wehrmacht (Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine combined) colapsed. In fact the Luftwaffe was a joke by then, even with their Wunderwaffen. Bombing Dresden was purely a retalitory act for the years of fighting and the Concentration Camps. The attacks explicitly targeted civillians, which while it can be argued that even the civillian promoteds teh war effort in a totalitarian state (which is generous monikor for the Fuehrer's gangster rule), by this time, a civillian could not contribute food, tehy were starving in Germany, he could not contribute to the war industry (most of it was in Czechoslovakia or so far underground by this point that it was more like sending Germany free metal to bomb the cities). At this stage in the war decimating the infrastructure was legitimate: trains (non-Red Cross ones), merchant vessels (carrying war materiel), and bridges. However, leveling a city, and targeting its cultural centers (Semperoper, Frauenkirche, and der Zwinger) served no purpose than to sate the anger of Eisenhower and Spatz.

IMHO if the raid had been mounted one year earlier Feb 13, 1944, the answer would have been different, b/c then the Wehrmacht was still an aggressive war making power and Dresden served as part of the miltary complex. But targeting an opera, a church and a palace would still have bene unjust.

[Ryokan]

I would say a just war is a war in self defense.
And as far as Dresden goes, I don't know....

[Alden]

Here's a side note on Dresden:

Over 100,000 people died. Most of them were refugees fleeing from the Russians.

The fire was so large, that it created winds in excess of 100mph. It used so much oxygen, that it would actually suck it out of people's lungs.

Some bomb shelters turned into ovens with temperatures in excess of 1000 degrees. There was nothing left.

Two days later, they were still so hot that they singed the people who opened the doors looking for survivors.

Quite a nasty business.

[Pilgrim]

I don;t a bout just, but maybe necessary?

[Alden]

I would tend to agree with most of what has already been said here. The reason why I posted in this forum is that I don't see much in the way of contemplation happening within the church, but rather a gung-ho go get em' type attitude. I'm not a pacifist by any means, but I would like to see more thought and discussion at times. Like what we have here.

How would you apply my initial questions to the current war situation?

[Ryokan]

It really depends. If you are inclined to believe that Iraq intends to use those weapons that Mr. Powell showed yesterday offensively, then yes, I think a war would protect American, Kuwaiti, Saudi, and Israeli lives, if not then probably not. So, really, it comes down to Saddam the man.

[Alden]

Ryokan:
It really depends. If you are inclined to believe that Iraq intends to use those weapons that Mr. Powell showed yesterday offensively, then yes, I think a war would protect American, Kuwaiti, Saudi, and Israeli lives, if not then probably not. So, really, it comes down to Saddam the man.

Well, when discussing Saddam the man, I don't think there is much positive to say. His hero is Stalin after all.

The main point of my question as much to conduct as the justification for going to war, that's why I brought Dresden up.

Thanks for the replys so far

[e4e]

Both the first world war and the second could have been prevented, and were forced upon us. I will leave it at that before someone starts to yell conspiricy. The one we are getting into now is no defferant. It is an unjust war guided by a flawed forign policy. That policy was set in 1913 when we as a nation decided to internationalise our monatary system. Our forighn policy is set by the international money linders.

[Dee Dee Warren]

I do believe there is such a thing... defining whether any one particular one falls under that rubric is a whole 'nother tomato.

[Ryokan]

Conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously, both world wars could have been prevented, but I doubt that it had to do much with international moneylenders, (WW2 maybe a little, but only in that massive debt crippled Europe after the first war, leading to instability).

[e4e]

Revelation 17





Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

The great whore, who is she? She is not given a name but I think it is possible to recognize who she is. In verse 4 the angle shows where the whore presently is at the time of the writing of this prophecy.

The whore set upon a scarlet colored beast that was filled with the names of blasphemy and had seven heads and ten horns. Lets not concern our selves with the beast at this moment but at a latter time should that be a prudent thing to do. Lets just concern ourselves with the whore.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:---

This whore was very wealthy and had made her living at the expense of the innocent and in collaboration with governments. She set upon government. She was not the government. From her appearance one could deduce a financial system that governments relied upon. It is the governments that were in the position of servitude to the whore. The whore was not holding up the government but the governments was holding up the whore. The whore is the master of the governments.

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. This is very critical. This is not the Babylonian government but that which the Babylonian government relied. It was not the government itself. King Nebuchanizzar displayed his innermost character and it was this mystery that fed that character and caused its display for the masses.

Daniel 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.
2 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.
3 Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up.
4 Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages,
5 That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
6 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
7 Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

This is the way that the Mystery Babylon displayed it self.. It seeks to kill all those who will not buy into its system and consequently the blood of the saints was found in her.

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

It is apparent that the Mystery Babylon is a global system. A hidden system. It is also apparent that this system is an economic system that hold sway over the hearts of men and rewards them with capital gain. The affairs of men and government are ruled by the whore and all decisions are made to feed the appetite of the whore.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Now for the beast with the seven heads and ten horns.. The 9th. Verse says that the 7 heads are seven mountains. It is a well known fact that Rome sets on seven mountains. This I do not think is the proper understanding that should be give to this passage. The reason is this. The whore is the Mystery Babylon so the whore was sitting on Babylon giving the prospective of World power of which Babylon and Rome are both one off. The list goes like this 1.Chaldean, 2 Egyptian 3 Babylonian, 4 Medeo-Persion, 5 Grecian, 6 Rome, 7.----, 8.------. The scripture does not say who #7 is but we do know that # 8 is the Mystery Babylon. It is not government that is being talked about but the economic system that exercises control of government will rule. The mountains and the kings are one and the same. It is not a physical mountain that is referred too, but governments, nations and peoples. The Mystery Babylon will be hated buy the ten kings that have not received there kingdom as yet.

Who are the ten kings that have not received there power as yet?

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

If you will notice the 10 nations receive there power from the beast, not the whore. The beast has sway as government over the nations. The ten nations hate the whore not the governments. Why was the twin towers struck? It was not an attack on the United States but an attack on the whore. The whore is the invisible world economic system that reduces nations to slavery by debt. The United States is the enforcer of the world economic system.

By the powers of deduction, I have formulated an opinion and it is my own. You may disagree and that is fine but basted upon the foregoing This is what I now believe is the world situation.

First, The 10 kings are 10 fundamentally Islamic countries.
Second, The beast is the non Islamic countries in the governments that comprise the Unite Nations and they receive there authority from the United Nations and rule with her.
Third, The 10 Islamic nations will destroy the globel economic system of which the United States is a part and the enforcer.

[Alden]

I have two things to say:


1.


Both the first world war and the second could have been prevented, and were forced upon us. I will leave it at that before someone starts to yell conspiricy. The one we are getting into now is no defferant. It is an unjust war guided by a flawed forign policy. That policy was set in 1913 when we as a nation decided to internationalise our monatary system. Our forighn policy is set by the international money linders.

This is absolute rubbish :doh: The above statement is ripe with logical fallacy.

2. You should show the relevance of the scripture that you've posted.

[kiwimac]

There is no such thing as a just war!

Kiwimac

[Alden]

Unless I'm mistaken, didn't God tell a bunch of people called the Israelites to go to war?:huh:

[flipper]

Alden wrote:

Unless I'm mistaken, didn't God tell a bunch of people called the Israelites to go to war?
<atheist>
No.
</atheist>

[Ryokan]

what do you recommend we did in afghanistan kiwimac?

[Solly]

Alden:
In light of that just cause, was the Allied firebombing of cities like Hamburg and Dresden justified?

You forgot the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki; both arguably unjustified actions.

[Ishmael]

GrayPilgrim:


I do beleive there is such a thing as just war, however, these two act were reprehenisble. The Allies knew that by Feb. 13, 1945 the German war machine was done for, Hitler's last gamble Wacht am Rhein, had failed . They knew it was only a matter of time before the Wehrmacht (Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine combined) colapsed. In fact the Luftwaffe was a joke by then, even with their Wunderwaffen. Bombing Dresden was purely a retalitory act for the years of fighting and the Concentration Camps. The attacks explicitly targeted civillians, which while it can be argued that even the civillian promoteds teh war effort in a totalitarian state (which is generous monikor for the Fuehrer's gangster rule), by this time, a civillian could not contribute food, tehy were starving in Germany, he could not contribute to the war industry (most of it was in Czechoslovakia or so far underground by this point that it was more like sending Germany free metal to bomb the cities). At this stage in the war decimating the infrastructure was legitimate: trains (non-Red Cross ones), merchant vessels (carrying war materiel), and bridges. However, leveling a city, and targeting its cultural centers (Semperoper, Frauenkirche, and der Zwinger) served no purpose than to sate the anger of Eisenhower and Spatz.

IMHO if the raid had been mounted one year earlier Feb 13, 1944, the answer would have been different, b/c then the Wehrmacht was still an aggressive war making power and Dresden served as part of the miltary complex. But targeting an opera, a church and a palace would still have bene unjust.

You're right. Thank God you have the opportunity to express your opinion too. Perhaps in a facist German world you would not.

Let me explain to you a view from the foxhole near Dresden. Those men on the ground probably new that Dresden was beat when they asked for the air corp to help out, but they also knew that just one platoon, one soldiers, one sniper or 88 crew could wipe out more of their buddies.

They were angry, all of them, and they knew that the poor civilians of Dresden had done nothing to stop the horrors of the concentration camps. They just enjoyed their lives while the murder was happening all around them.... kind of like.. never mind....

But back to the infantryman's buddy... If Dresden would have been a ground campaign more good men would have died and more murderers would have lived... I don't really see your point in this light....

As a matter of fact, if you are an American, maybe your grandfather would have died near or in Dresden, and just maybe you wouldn't even be here to express your armchair opinion of what's right and wrong in war.

Calvinist
Soldier

[Ishmael]

Solly:


You forgot the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki; both arguably unjustified actions.

See my last post in reference to invading Japan by ground or conventional bombing.

Or maybe the Brits would have done the invading?

Not likely given that they were partial to the night shift on low altitude bombing mission over Germany during the 24 hour air campaign. Yanks took the day shift.... go figure.

[Solly]

Yes, I've seen Memphis Belle; and all the other "how John Wayne won the war" films.

I've also seen the DamBusters, Battle of Britain, and 633 Squadron.

And I've seen Coventry Cathedral; and pictures of London after the blitz.

Are we trading scars now?

Solly
ex Air Force.

[Ishmael]

So you are saying the Brits didn't take the night shift?

[Solly]

Nope, if you mean some airman who knew the risks

But we took the night and day shift of hard knocks, in civilian casualities, merchant shipping, and damage to the fabric of our society.

And a decade of austerity following.

And the loss of an Empire.

And the arrival of socialism.

Nobody helped to rebuild our economy, or our inner cities. We well and truly lost WWII, while Germany and Japan were rebuilt, re-equipped, and re-launched.

[Ishmael]

Solly:
Yes, I've seen Memphis Belle; and all the other &quot;how John Wayne won the war&quot; films.

I've also seen the DamBusters, Battle of Britain, and 633 Squadron.

And I've seen Coventry Cathedral; and pictures of London after the blitz.

Are we trading scars now?

Solly
ex Air Force.

I know. And I would argue that this is part of the reason that your Prime Minister is on the side of right. To protect veterans like yourself from the horrors of a maniac in the middle east.

I, for one, don't really care if we have a "smoking gun" in Iraq. Sadam is dangerous to America whether or not he has sponsored Al-crapa and we need to put a secular democracy in Iraq for the good of the world.

Its a just cause and our (USA, Brit, Astralia, France, Germany, et. al.) way of life will be protected for years because of the vice grip we are going to place the fanatical middle eastern countries in.. at least until they fall like the Soviets (God bless the destruction of Soviet Russia) did...

[Solly]

Calvinist:
Its a just cause and our (USA, Brit, Astralia, France, Germany, et. al.) way of life will be protected for years because of the vice grip we are going to place the fanatical [sic]middle eastern countries in.. at least until they fall like the Soviets (God bless the destruction of Soviet Russia) did...

Ahh, death to all fanatics.

[Ishmael]

fanatical is spelled correctly Solly

[Ishmael]

Solly:


Ahh, death to all fanatics.

Nobody has to die over there. They can surrender which is even now being suggested to the basic Iraqi soldiers and General alike.

[Solly]

Calvinist:
fanatical is spelled correctly Solly

It wasn't your spelling, it was your use of the adjective that I drew attention to.

[Alden]

flipper:
Alden wrote:

&lt;atheist&gt;
No.
&lt;/atheist&gt;

Okay, maybe that isn't relevant for all of us here, so I'll try again with some examples that might be called "just".

Going to war with Germany when they invaded Belgium (a country who was declared to be neutral) in WWI.

Going to war with Germany when they invaded Belgium, and just about every other country on the planet, in WWII.

The American Civil War. The south fired on the north. It must be asked, was there any other way to remove slavery from a region of the country unwilling to give it up?

[GrayPilgrim]

Solly:


You forgot the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki; both arguably unjustified actions.

Actually I put Dreseden in a completely different category. Dresden was an act of vengence on a defeated Geramny. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were in fact done for the express purposes of ending the war, not vengence. More people died in the fire bombing of Tokyo than in Nagasaki and Hiroshiam combined. Both are horrible deaths, but it was the motive behind one (vengence) that makes it an unjustifiable act, whereas the otehr was done as an attempt to save millions of lives (H&N) that IMHO makes in justifiable, as it ois always morally justifiable try to save lives.

GP

[GrayPilgrim]

Alden:
Unless I'm mistaken, didn't God tell a bunch of people called the Israelites to go to war?:huh:

Yes he told them to irradicate the Jebusites, the Hitites, the Amalakites, the Girga[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]es, a few other ites

Now admitedly this brings up the aspect of Holy War (I think that term is bandied about to freely). But it shows that to God there is such thing as a just war. As the Bible speaks of God fighting these wars, but also note that it did not justify all their actions as he did not help them when they went to Ai and Kadesh Barnea, so one cannot say all war is just but that some war is.

GP

[ollie]

02-18-2003 @ 03:59 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=18163#post18163)
Alden:

Unless I'm mistaken, didn't God tell a bunch of people called the Israelites to go to war?:huh:
Right, and they were justified in it because it came from God.

In todays world the only justified war that God authorizes is that
war god's people have with the flesh 24/7/365.

The wars of the world are not of God, but their very existence in actuality or rumours herald the return of Jesus Christ.