Magic

[Darth Executor]

Can anybody here use magic to create visual effects? This means casting a spell that has an immediate effect that anybody can either see or use one of their other senses to feel it.

[Darth Executor]

Nobody?

[tmancour]

Nobody?
Nope, probably not. That sort of thing would likely be under 'illusions'. magick is a lot more subtle than that. While I'm sure that you could sufficiently focus your mental power on a receptive object enough to convince a couple of electrons to convert to photonism, I doubt that there would be enough to be visable with the naked eye.


Arion

[Darth Executor]

Nope, probably not. That sort of thing would likely be under 'illusions'. magick is a lot more subtle than that. While I'm sure that you could sufficiently focus your mental power on a receptive object enough to convince a couple of electrons to convert to photonism, I doubt that there would be enough to be visable with the naked eye.


Arion

You realise that you basically said magic is useless, right? The energy that is supposedly used to perform an "invisible" act (like improving your odds of getting a job) physically requires more energy than, say, setting a piece of toilet paper on fire. In both cases you're moving electrons. I wonder if the practicioner's disbelief in something "ridiculous" like throwing fireballs dampens his ability to do anything of the sort.

[technomage]

You realise that you basically said magic is useless, right? The energy that is supposedly used to perform an "invisible" act (like improving your odds of getting a job) physically requires more energy than, say, setting a piece of toilet paper on fire. In both cases you're moving electrons. I wonder if the practicioner's disbelief in something "ridiculous" like throwing fireballs dampens his ability to do anything of the sort.

Theoretically speaking, if you're moving electrons, then it takes a lot less energy to influence the electrochemical behavior of a prospective employer's brain than to ignite a roll of TP. :wink:

[Darth Executor]

Theoretically speaking, if you're moving electrons, then it takes a lot less energy to influence the electrochemical behavior of a prospective employer's brain than to ignite a roll of TP. :wink:

Actually that would depend on how much energy one requires to interfere with somebody's soul rather than their brain. Direct brain interference might be noticed by their victim who will wonder why they blanked out and woke up with you as their employee. :tongue:

[technomage]

Actually that would depend on how much energy one requires to interfere with somebody's soul rather than their brain. Direct brain interference might be noticed by their victim who will wonder why they blanked out and woke up with you as their employee. :tongue:

Subtlety, lad, subtlety. You don't have to overwhelm ... just influence. Kind of like "Charm Employer." :hehe:

[tmancour]

You realise that you basically said magic is useless, right? The energy that is supposedly used to perform an "invisible" act (like improving your odds of getting a job) physically requires more energy than, say, setting a piece of toilet paper on fire. In both cases you're moving electrons. I wonder if the practicioner's disbelief in something "ridiculous" like throwing fireballs dampens his ability to do anything of the sort.


You are thinking entirely too physically! Magick is a subtle art, more like rule-of-thumb engineering than a science. Consider: in most cases where you are improving your chances of getting a job, outside of your own psychology (which is, of course, effected by the spell) you are influencing very subtle forces, forces such as thought and probability, things which are a lot less tangible than gross electrons. Don't believe that such things can alter the universe? Consider chaos theory, specifically "sensative dependence on initial conditions", aka the Butterfly Effect. In short, you can change the course of mighty rivers -- if you start far enough up-stream.

And perhaps there are those naturally talented magi who can use magic to make fireballs. There is certainly such a thing as pyrokineses, and no doubt this naturally occuring phenomena could, theoretically, be learned by someone who a) had the applicable natural talent and b) was willing to devote his or her life to the study. Most magi are unwilling to pursue such a mundane (although undoubtedly cool) use for magick. It's easier to build a flame-thrower.

As far as belief goes, it is very valid in magick. Not only for the placebo effect, or even the "voodoo doll" effect, but because it is difficult for you to get your minds straight for a powerful spell when you really don't believe it will work. Contra, too much belief can be self-deceiving and lead to utter disapointment. The wise mage will cultivate a balance between belief and scepticism, recognizing the use and need for both.

Arion

[jrstruthers]

Can anybody here use magic to create visual effects? This means casting a spell that has an immediate effect that anybody can either see or use one of their other senses to feel it.

I have been worked on by witches specializing in healing whose hands become extremely (like painfully) hot while they are working. Pretty odd phenomenon, but not really outside the realm of human experience.

[Ryokan]

Couple Questions, since I am allowed to post here now:
1. Magic versus Prayer: How's it different?
2. Magic's effectiveness: How's it evaluated by practitioner's?
3. To reframe Darth's REAL question: Is magic's results scientifically verifiable? If so, have studies been done? Whose done them, if so?

[Darth Executor]

Couple Questions, since I am allowed to post here now:
1. Magic versus Prayer: How's it different?

As far as I'm concerned, the modern meaning of "magic" includes prayer, except that prayer is invoking the aid of a god while in magic you can power your own distortions of reality as well. I usually refer to the latter as psychic ability.


2. Magic's effectiveness: How's it evaluated by practitioner's?

When I experimented with it I prefered something with an obvious effect. I think I made a coin levitate once for example, although as time passed I began to doubt the event and wondered if it wasn't just my imagination.

3. To reframe Darth's REAL question: Is magic's results scientifically verifiable? If so, have studies been done? Whose done them, if so?

I doubt good practicioners usually bother with proving stuff to arrogant people who demand it. If I had a huge ammount of power I sure as heck wouldn't be sitting in a lab. I'd be busy taking over the world from behind the curtains. I do believe that the CIA and the Russians did some far seeing experiments during the Cold War with very little success. Of course, data on the subject is rather scarce and I'm somewhat alergic of paranormal web sites because the owner would believe pretty much anything.

[James Peter]

I have been worked on by witches specializing in healing whose hands become extremely (like painfully) hot while they are working. Pretty odd phenomenon, but not really outside the realm of human experience.

And which is rather similar to my experiences within a christianity healing ministry context. Just last week I was praying for a girl and her head got visibly heated - holding a hand above her head was liking one by an open oven). Not white hot but hot nonetheless. I guess heat is the normal way that excess energy is dissipated..

[jrstruthers]

And which is rather similar to my experiences within a christianity healing ministry context. Just last week I was praying for a girl and her head got visibly heated - holding a hand above her head was liking one by an open oven). Not white hot but hot nonetheless. I guess heat is the normal way that excess energy is dissipated..

Yeah, I guess it is pretty much in the same ballpark. I have to say that the experience was pretty surprising to me. I have a pretty scientific bent to me (ok, I'm a scientist) and am eternally the skeptic. This gals hands were actually hot enough to leave visible marks on me. Fairly intense, but she sure does good massage work.

As to the transfer of energy thing...could be. Or it could be her using something that she can do (or the Divine can help her do) to more effectively heal. I have also seen similar cases of Soma healers using touch to trigger some pretty incredible emotional releases in people. To the observer, it is almost like a seizure or a really intense vision in the person (where they seem to not be aware of where they are and speak spontaneously). I've heard of similar things in the more ecstatic denominations of Christianity. Anybody else witness similar things of a more tangible nature?

[James Peter]

Well I've seen outright and undeniable physical healings (serious diagnosed conditions disappearing instantly) if thats what you mean by tangible and I've personally seen visions and so forth but I've never known any visible directly supernatural effect (So a physical object being manipulated would be outside this category) to be visible by everyone (although by several within a large group I have encountered).

I've not seen such things outside christian circles because if I was present when they were going on I couldn't stand idly by anyway...

[Timothy Leary]

Can anybody here use magic to create visual effects? This means casting a spell that has an immediate effect that anybody can either see or use one of their other senses to feel it.
Can you heal people? Cast out demons?

[Darth Executor]

Can you heal people? Cast out demons?

I healed one of my stomach aches a few years ago, but that's about it. I don't know about the latter, I have yet to meet a posessed individual.

[Timothy Leary]

And how did you do it? Did such healing occur by your body's natural healing, or by the use of medicine, or by a supernatural means?

If the first two, and you cannot produce a 3rd, why do you expect the pagans to produce a miracle when you cannot?

I healed one of my stomach aches a few years ago, but that's about it. I don't know about the latter, I have yet to meet a posessed individual.

[Cynic Sage]

Couple Questions, since I am allowed to post here now:
1. Magic versus Prayer: How's it different?
2. Magic's effectiveness: How's it evaluated by practitioner's?
3. To reframe Darth's REAL question: Is magic's results scientifically verifiable? If so, have studies been done? Whose done them, if so?

My two cents is that Prayer's purpose isn't getting what you want.

[Ryokan]

My two cents is that Prayer's purpose isn't getting what you want.
Fair enough, but then why ask for something?

[Darth Executor]

And how did you do it? Did such healing occur by your body's natural healing, or by the use of medicine, or by a supernatural means?

If the first two, and you cannot produce a 3rd, why do you expect the pagans to produce a miracle when you cannot?

I didn't expect the pagans to produce anything. What's with this tone?

[Darth Executor]

Fair enough, but then why ask for something?

To get what you need.

[Durthorin]

I didn't expect the pagans to produce anything. What's with this tone?

Many years ago I was in an auto accident. The kind where they tell your wife your not going to make it and you spend 2 weeks in ICU. The doctors told me when I did get out that due to the damage I would be over a year before I could walk without assitance and I would never regain use of my left arm.

Prayers to my Goddess, spells from my circle and prayers from others, Moslem, Christian and Buddist.. in a month I was running a couple of miles a day and had full use of my arm. As the doctor said, "I don't know what church you go to but I think I need to visit there."

From my standpoint, the Gods decided I wasn't going to die.. and the Goddess decided she had things for me to do. Things I have been working to accomplish.. sometimes whining to her that i don't want the chalice she is handing me.. but understanding that I was given back my life, my body and my spirit for a reason.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[Darth Executor]

Many years ago I was in an auto accident. The kind where they tell your wife your not going to make it and you spend 2 weeks in ICU. The doctors told me when I did get out that due to the damage I would be over a year before I could walk without assitance and I would never regain use of my left arm.

Prayers to my Goddess, spells from my circle and prayers from others, Moslem, Christian and Buddist.. in a month I was running a couple of miles a day and had full use of my arm. As the doctor said, "I don't know what church you go to but I think I need to visit there."

From my standpoint, the Gods decided I wasn't going to die.. and the Goddess decided she had things for me to do. Things I have been working to accomplish.. sometimes whining to her that i don't want the chalice she is handing me.. but understanding that I was given back my life, my body and my spirit for a reason.

Brighid Bless, Dur


Well, that beats my stomach ache. :rasberry:

[Timothy Leary]

I didn't expect the pagans to produce anything. What's with this tone?

Most Christians I've known to ask this question usually ask this question in order to mock the Pagans. They say that they can heal people, etc. based on NT passages. When asked for the proof, they can offer no more proof than the Pagan can.

If this was not your intention, I apologize.

[jrstruthers]

My two cents is that Prayer's purpose isn't getting what you want.

Many (unverified...okay, at least a couple) witches would say that the purpose of magic isn't getting what you want either. We don't make such a clear distinction between the part of ourselves that Divinity dwells within as Christians appear to. To me magic is a supreme act of will that (if you are on your game) is in accord with the Divine.

James

[Geifodd]

Darth Executor:

Can anybody here use magic to create visual effects? This means casting a spell that has an immediate effect that anybody can either see or use one of their other senses to feel it.

I have never seen anything like this, though I have known people who were able to cast spells for something they wanted, and they ended up getting what they wanted.

In LaVeyan Satanism, magic (or "magick" -- we Satanists typically spell it without the "k") is defined rather simply as a form of theatrical psychodrama, used to employ certain energies within yourself. The LaVeyan does not believe he is really conjuring demons per se, but that he is conjuring forces from within himself to be used. In essence, the LaVeyan theory of magic is essentially a combination of theatrical dynamics and self-help psychiatry.

Other Satanist denominations believe that magic is something inherently supernatural, but I must admit that I've never met any who could do the things you ask about it in the OP. As I have said, however, there would seem to be *something* to magic.

Being a Devil Worshiper (which is actually only one type of Satanist), I do not take much interest in the practice of magical techniques, since my denominational standpoint is more geared toward taking a devotionary approach to the forces that I invoke.

[Geifodd]

Also I forgot to make mention of the Setian theory of magic. Setians believe in something which they refer to as "black magic." However, their idea of black magic is not simply casting curses on people or sticking pins in a voodoo doll (although these options can certainly be employed, whenever necessary). Black magic is defined by the Temple of Set as the process of expanding and refining the higher qualities of one's own consciousness, to such a degree that the subjective mind can be made to survive the death of its objective shell (i.e., the physical body). In other words, the Setian idea of magic has less to do with operative outcomes (e.g., getting a better job, seducing a girlfriend, healing someone who is sick), than it does with initiatory ones. Initiation, in the Setian context, is defined as the evolution of oneself into an immortal, potent essence that can survive physical death and continue to act upon the world, *even after* its physical death. The immortalization of the psyche, essentially.

Most theistic Satanist denominations believe in some form of initiation or initiatory work, but definitions vary somewhat from here to there. A Devil Worshiper like myself considers initiation to be the life-long process of growing in the faith.

[Geifodd]

Johnny EC:

My two cents is that Prayer's purpose isn't getting what you want.

I would have to agree. I define prayer, rather simply, as being communication with one or more supernatural powers. It doesn't have to be communication in the form of a request at all. More often than not, I think prayer is usually a form of communication in which the mortal wishes to express thankfulness or good will to whatever particular power or powers with which they are connected. Prayer is usually thought to take the form of some kind of litany, but it doesn't have to -- it can be as simple as talking to your god about something that is bothering you while you are driving to work. I think that people who picture prayer as just "asking for favors" all the time are rather simple-minded.

Some within the Pagan and Satanist subcultures argue that prayer is itself a variety of magic. I think this depends largely upon whatever definition of "magic" is being used. I am perhaps one of the few Satanists who *doesn't* believe in practicing magic. I prefer to see what I do as being a combination of worship and prayer, nothing more.