Why should we listen to .....

[PrometheusX303]

Billy Graham?


Here is a recent talk.origins post:

"I don't think that there's any conflict at all between science today and

the Scriptures. I think that we have misinterpreted the Scriptures many

times and we've tried to make the Scriptures say things they weren't meant

to say, I think that we have made a mistake by thinking the Bible is a

scientific book. The Bible is not a book of science. The Bible is a book

of Redemption, and of course I accept the Creation story. I believe that

God did create the universe. I believe that God created man, and whether

it came by an evolutionary process and at a certain point He took this

person or being and made him a living soul or not, does not change the fact

that God did create man. ..... whichever way God did it makes no

difference as to what man is and man's relationship to God." (Quoted in

David Frost, 1997, Billy Graham: Personal Thoughts of a Public Man, p.

72-74.)

One reply was:

Yes, I've read this before. Billy Graham has more sense (and
integrity) than to invent problems between Christianity and science.

Creationists tend to respond with deafening silence to Billy's point of
view.

So what makes people like Billy Graham and the late pope JPII such authorities on origins? Why shouyld we believe them over creationists?

[rogero]

Billy Graham?

...
One reply was:

Yes, I've read this before. Billy Graham has more sense (and
integrity) than to invent problems between Christianity and science.

Creationists tend to respond with deafening silence to Billy's point of
view.

So what makes people like Billy Graham and the late pope JPII such authorities on origins? Why shouyld we believe them over creationists?

So are Billy Graham and JPII not creationists? I'm confused...

[grmorton]

So what makes people like Billy Graham and the late pope JPII such authorities on origins? Why shouyld we believe them over creationists?

What makes you think creationists are such experts on origins? All I ever see is a lack of expertise whenever they speak to science.

[Jugulum]

So what makes people like Billy Graham and the late pope JPII such authorities on origins? Why shouyld we believe them over creationists?Why are you trying to figure out who to believe instead of what to believe?

[shunyadragon]

So are Billy Graham and JPII not creationists? I'm confused...

Dear confused . . .

You missed the point of the thread. Billy Graham and John Paul II are NOT YEC creationists.

[JonF]

So what makes people like Billy Graham and the late pope JPII such authorities on origins? Why shouyld we believe them over creationists?
They are not particular authorities on origins, and we should not necessarily believe what they say in the absence of good evidence. But agreeing with their opinions is not the point.

They are accepted by most people as sincere Christians, and their opinions on origins demonstrate that not all sincere Christians reject modern science in favor of a peculiar interpretation of the Bible.

Of course, a fair percentage of YECs would say that Reverend Graham and the Pope and the several thousand clerics who recently signed a statement strongly supporting evolution (I can't find a link to it right now) are ipso facto not realio trulio Christians like, e.g., the particular YEC making the claim. There's even one I know of (Wilowtree/Ray Martinez) who would call them atheists.

[rogero]

They are not particular authorities on origins, and we should not necessarily believe what they say in the absence of good evidence. But agreeing with their opinions is not the point.

They are accepted by most people as sincere Christians, and their opinions on origins demonstrate that not all sincere Christians reject modern science in favor of a peculiar interpretation of the Bible.

Of course, a fair percentage of YECs would say that Reverend Graham and the Pope and the several thousand clerics who recently signed a statement strongly supporting evolution (I can't find a link to it right now) are ipso facto not realio trulio Christians like, e.g., the particular YEC making the claim. There's even one I know of (Wilowtree/Ray Martinez) who would call them atheists.

That's Ray Martinez/Willowtree/AdamZenith... :blush: And, I'd suspect he'd call them "atheist wannabes" or some such thing.

[grmorton]

Prometheus is one of those drive-by-posters. Post something stupid and then drive away not remaining to even respond to the criticisms that came to his post. Such cowardice is another characteristic of many young-earth creationists!

Creationists out there, is this the way God would have us behave???????

[PrometheusX303]

Prometheus is one of those drive-by-posters. Post something stupid and then drive away not remaining to even respond to the criticisms that came to his post. Such cowardice is another characteristic of many young-earth creationists!

Creationists out there, is this the way God would have us behave???????


Am I really?

Can't a person take more than 24 hours to reply? I have a job and can't spend all my time in the forums.

My post had a point. Maybe it wasn't clear enough for those with their blinders on.

I don't know if the T.O poster is an atheist or a theist, but frequently even atheists praise the words of Graham or the Pope when they affirm evolution.

All others are ignorant theists.

[grmorton]

Am I really?

Can't a person take more than 24 hours to reply? I have a job and can't spend all my time in the forums.

My post had a point. Maybe it wasn't clear enough for those with their blinders on.

I don't know if the T.O poster is an atheist or a theist, but frequently even atheists praise the words of Graham or the Pope when they affirm evolution.

All others are ignorant theists.


I am glad you came back, you have shown that you are not a typical coward. That being said, you still failed to actually answer my question. Why should we consider YECs to be such experts on origins? They never know any actual scientific data. Are you able to address the question?

[PrometheusX303]

I am glad you came back, you have shown that you are not a typical coward. That being said, you still failed to actually answer my question. Why should we consider YECs to be such experts on origins? They never know any actual scientific data. Are you able to address the question?


As I tried to explain in my last post, my implication was not that YECs are experts or more intelligent than others who hold different views of origins.

Even if I did think so, no amount of data I could give in suport would convince you or others like you. Of course, I would guess that most of us are set in our view and opinions about origins, and much evidence contrary to those views is dismissed.

[Jugulum]

Even if I did think so, no amount of data I could give in suport would convince you or others like you. Of course, I would guess that most of us are set in our view and opinions about origins, and much evidence contrary to those views is dismissed.You know that Glenn started out YEC (he published in YEC journals) before he decided that young-earth and global-flood required dismissing too much real-world data, right?

[PrometheusX303]

You know that Glenn started out YEC (he published in YEC journals) before he decided that young-earth and global-flood required dismissing too much real-world data, right?


So I see.

And I have neither the authority nor the information to dispute that claim.

[grmorton]

As I tried to explain in my last post, my implication was not that YECs are experts or more intelligent than others who hold different views of origins.

Even if I did think so, no amount of data I could give in suport would convince you or others like you. Of course, I would guess that most of us are set in our view and opinions about origins, and much evidence contrary to those views is dismissed.

You probably don't know that I was a publishing YEC for about 20 years of my adult life. I was a convinced young-earther. The problem was that the data DID convince me that I was wrong. I dismissed YEC after 20 years of struggling with the geologic data.

[grmorton]

So I see.

And I have neither the authority nor the information to dispute that claim.

You can get the information that verifies that I was a publishing YEC at http://home.entouch.net/dmd/auth.htm


At the bottom you will find the references for my young-earth articles. You can look any of them up in your church library if you want.