Swedenborgian Connection

[Krusader]

Emanuel Swedenborg was a Swedish occultist who founded the "New Church." It appears that Smith was somewhat familiar with Swedenborg's numerous, numerous and I mean numerous writings. Swedenborg taught that all things on earth were first created spiritually in heaven (one of the heavens), and Smith seemed to concur. Furthermore, Swedenborg taught that men became angels in the afterlife, something which Smith also taught. Christians, of course, believe that angels are a separate order of creation. I wonder if anybody out there is aware of additional connections between Swedenborgianism and Mormonism.

[Nosnomis]

Emanuel Swedenborg was a Swedish occultist who founded the "New Church." It appears that Smith was somewhat familiar with Swedenborg's numerous, numerous and I mean numerous writings. Swedenborg taught that all things on earth were first created spiritually in heaven (one of the heavens), and Smith seemed to concur. Furthermore, Swedenborg taught that men became angels in the afterlife, something which Smith also taught. Christians, of course, believe that angels are a separate order of creation. I wonder if anybody out there is aware of additional connections between Swedenborgianism and Mormonism.

I still am dealing with my busy schedule and don't have much time, so I will keep this post short.

First, you claim that Joseph Smith got all of his ideas the Cambellite ministers.
Now you say he got his ideas from Swedenborg. Which accusation are you going to stay with? Second, when did Swedenborg live, and how could Joseph Smith, living in a farm in rural New York have gotten hold of his "numerous writings," and where are these numerous writings?

[Krusader]

I still am dealing with my busy schedule and don't have much time, so I will keep this post short.

First, you claim that Joseph Smith got all of his ideas the Cambellite ministers.
Now you say he got his ideas from Swedenborg. Which accusation are you going to stay with? Second, when did Swedenborg live, and how could Joseph Smith, living in a farm in rural New York have gotten hold of his "numerous writings," and where are these numerous writings?

Jeth, how are you? I'm glad you're back, since it's been really boring over here. Swedenborg was a very intelligent man who lived in the 17th century, but unfortunately got caught up into the occult. He produced a vast number of books, some of them available in the 19th century in this country. Johnny Appleseed espoused Swedenborgianism, as did Helen Keller. I believe that Smith's doctrines regarding baptism, regeneration, etc., were chiefly derived from Campbellite doctrines. However, some of his more esoteric teachings seem to have a relationship to Swedenborg. If you'll do a search on Swedenborg, you can probably come up with a good list of his writings - you'd probably love Arcana Coelestia and Conjugial Love (not misspelled -where he teaches men can have other women in addition to their wives.) How is your reading coming along, guy?

[Nosnomis]

Jeth, how are you? I'm glad you're back, since it's been really boring over here. Swedenborg was a very intelligent man who lived in the 17th century, but unfortunately got caught up into the occult. He produced a vast number of books, some of them available in the 19th century in this country. Johnny Appleseed espoused Swedenborgianism, as did Helen Keller. I believe that Smith's doctrines regarding baptism, regeneration, etc., were chiefly derived from Campbellite doctrines. However, some of his more esoteric teachings seem to have a relationship to Swedenborg. If you'll do a search on Swedenborg, you can probably come up with a good list of his writings - you'd probably love Arcana Coelestia and Conjugial Love (not misspelled -where he teaches men can have other women in addition to their wives.) How is your reading coming along, guy?

About halfway through Book 1 of the Church History.

[Krusader]

About halfway through Book 1 of the Church History.

That's good Jeth. I'm sure you'll find it interesting, and that we can all engage in good conversation about it when you're finished.

[freelight]

I would be interested if it could be proven that JS had access to any of Swedenborgs works. Actually Swedenborg was brilliant - much more astute and accomplished in many fields than JS ever was....and yes....a prolific writer - at least 1 or 2 spiritual classics, among them "Divine Love and Wisdom","Heaven and Hell" and others. I think christians can learn alot from his writings(using their own discernment) - they being more esoteric/allegorical but as far as ethics/insights and the reality of the spiritual worlds and spirits are concerned he was a pioneer and did have much discourse with spirits and related their 'reality' via his writings. (also gives clear details on what happens to the human soul/spirit after physical death).

While Swedenborg believed we do become angels as we advance in spiritual/soul development...the scriptures do say we becomes as 'angels'. His view does seem more resonant with a christian spiritualist View....where spirits are actually human souls (this includes the classes of angels) - at least the ones he communicated with. Whether or not He included in his theology a class of non-human angels...I am unware of. I actually have several of his books given to me by a friend that I havent read yet - I did read a few of his other books years ago. I have spiritualist leanings so naturally am open to study some of the material offered in this field.

Unless we can prove JS had access or was familiar with ES(Emmanel Swedenborg) material or philosophy we cannot really make a connection but only theoritically. Still there are glaring differences between JS's doctrine and ES's teaching.....relative to nature of God, eternal progression and probably on some minor points of what affords a soul salvation. Their cosmologies may have some parallels but peculiarities all their own. Good postulation however that needs more research :smile:







paul

[Krusader]

I would be interested if it could be proven that JS had access to any of Swedenborgs works. Actually Swedenborg was brilliant - much more astute and accomplished in many fields than JS ever was....and yes....a prolific writer - at least 1 or 2 spiritual classics, among them "Divine Love and Wisdom","Heaven and Hell" and others. I think christians can learn alot from his writings(using their own discernment) - they being more esoteric/allegorical but as far as ethics/insights and the reality of the spiritual worlds and spirits are concerned he was a pioneer and did have much discourse with spirits and related their 'reality' via his writings. (also gives clear details on what happens to the human soul/spirit after physical death).

While Swedenborg believed we do become angels as we advance in spiritual/soul development...the scriptures do say we becomes as 'angels'. His view does seem more resonant with a christian spiritualist View....where spirits are actually human souls (this includes the classes of angels) - at least the ones he communicated with. Whether or not He included in his theology a class of non-human angels...I am unware of. I actually have several of his books given to me by a friend that I havent read yet - I did read a few of his other books years ago. I have spiritualist leanings so naturally am open to study some of the material offered in this field.

Unless we can prove JS had access or was familiar with ES(Emmanel Swedenborg) material or philosophy we cannot really make a connection but only theoritically. Still there are glaring differences between JS's doctrine and ES's teaching.....relative to nature of God, eternal progression and probably on some minor points of what affords a soul salvation. Their cosmologies may have some parallels but peculiarities all their own. Good postulation however that needs more research :smile:







paul

Hi, freelight. There is a community of Swedenborgians in Bryn Athyn, PA. Smith did live for a while in the area. However, I think the Swedenborgians, themselves, did dig up a link between Swedenborg and Smith - I've discussed this with them on another site. One of my best friends, who is now a Christian, was a member of the New Church and wrote a book titled, "Emanuel Swedenborg, Prophet of the Second Advent or Spirit Medium?" Swedenborg was, no doubt, brilliant - unfortunately his pride led him into occult practices which are forbidden in the Scriptures. Smith also was an occultist, and would probably have been drawn to Swedenborg's writings. It's interesting to note that Johnny Appleseed was quite an apostle for Swedenborg and passed out copies of his writings wherever he went.

[technomage]

Emanuel Swedenborg was a Swedish occultist who founded the "New Church." It appears that Smith was somewhat familiar with Swedenborg's numerous, numerous and I mean numerous writings. Swedenborg taught that all things on earth were first created spiritually in heaven (one of the heavens), and Smith seemed to concur. Furthermore, Swedenborg taught that men became angels in the afterlife, something which Smith also taught. Christians, of course, believe that angels are a separate order of creation. I wonder if anybody out there is aware of additional connections between Swedenborgianism and Mormonism.

Eh ... I think it would be really difficult to prove a connection between Swedenborg and Smith, short of finding a direct quote or a list of what Smith had in his library. The elements you mention are actually not terribly uncommon in various world mythoi--of course, taking into account the differences given to "Angels" in various cultures. Heck, various Christian sects used to believe that deceased saints go to be angels--it's still an "informal" belief in a lot of denominations.

The concept of things being created in heaven before being manifest on earth goes back to Plotinus, at least, and Smith could have gotten the idea from just about anywhere.

EDITED TO ADD:


here is a community of Swedenborgians in Bryn Athyn, PA. Smith did live for a while in the area. However, I think the Swedenborgians, themselves, did dig up a link between Swedenborg and Smith - I've discussed this with them on another site.

Hmmm ... interesting. I'm not sure I buy it--the Swedenborgians are just as capable of affirming a tenuous connection as anyone else--but it brings up some interesting possibilities.

Ah! I found something....


By Joseph Smith's own statements, he was familiar with Swedenborg's writtings. Smith told a convert by the name of Edward Hunter that "Emanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished." In other words, Smith liked Swedenborg's concepts of the afterlife, but criticized him for not profiting from them.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon034.htm

[Krusader]

Eh ... I think it would be really difficult to prove a connection between Swedenborg and Smith, short of finding a direct quote or a list of what Smith had in his library. The elements you mention are actually not terribly uncommon in various world mythoi--of course, taking into account the differences given to "Angels" in various cultures. Heck, various Christian sects used to believe that deceased saints go to be angels--it's still an "informal" belief in a lot of denominations.

The concept of things being created in heaven before being manifest on earth goes back to Plotinus, at least, and Smith could have gotten the idea from just about anywhere.

EDITED TO ADD:



Hmmm ... interesting. I'm not sure I buy it--the Swedenborgians are just as capable of affirming a tenuous connection as anyone else--but it brings up some interesting possibilities.

Ah! I found something....



http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon034.htm


Thanks for that link. I know quite a few Swedenborgians, and they really are lovely, interesting people. Their religious service is patterned after the Episcopal Prayer book, but modified to fit into Swedenborgianism. Also, there are two main Swedenborgian sects in this country - one is the Convention Church, and the other the General Church of the New Jerusalem (the fundamentalists of Swedenborgianism) stationed in Bryn Athyn, where they have a wonderful cathedral. Last year I was discussing this very issue with some Swedenborgians of the latter group, and they had noticed the similarities between Swedenborg and Smith in some areas. There is also a third group called "The Lord's New Church," who hold to the teaching that the internal sense of the Word (Swedenborg taught an internal sense of Scripture which is revealed in his writings), also has an internal sense. This would be the celestial sense.