Can someone describe the resurrection of the saints...

[commonman]

...and please use scriptural references.

Specifically I am trying to understand what bodily resurrection means. The way I read it, bodily resurrection can mean one of two things:

1. The saints (believers, faithful, etc.) will be raised at the last day in their renewed physical body. Bodily resurrection.

2. Christ is resurrected in the believer's body and in the body of believers. Resurrection in the body.

I'm sure there are nuances to these two broad descriptions. Any scriptural insight is greatly appreciated.

[National Intelligence Director Phoenix]

Hi Commonman! Thanks for the question! Let's look at it. The first thing would be to determine what is meant by resurrection.

In Daniel 12:2 for instance, we read about many being brought back to life out of their graves. There is reason to believe that this could refer to what happened when Jesus died. What happened then was clearly a physical event. In fact, at the time, many rabbis asked to be buried with their staves in their hands because when Messiah came, they would be resurrected.

In the biblical line of thought, the body does matter. God creates everything in Genesis and calls it good. This includes the material world, something important to consider. In Greek thought, the body was seen as the prison of the soul and what one must escape. In Jewish thought though, the soul and body would be a unity. Neither is complete without the other. However, the soul can function without the body.

However, Paul does speak in 2 Cor. 5:8 of being absent from the body and present with the Lord. So what makes the resurrection so important? Is the body just an extra piece of equipment for this world just waiting to be ditched by us? Hardly.

The body is good because God created it good. Man is not meant to be without a body. It would almost be like being naked in public, a nightmare some people say they've had. However, I don't see any reason this has to be a one-to-one correspondence where each cell in your body will match each cell you lost. After all, the body is changing constantly. You have new cells dying and old cells coming in. Every seven years, your body is virtually replaced.

But what will rise up? That which would correspond in a greater case. The body will not be immaterial though. Flesh and blood in Hebrew thought was an idiom for the sinful nature. Those who have the sinful nature still will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

Instead, your body will be new and glorified. I believe someone, who for instance, lived in a wheelchair on this Earth, will run down the streets of Heaven. Why? There is no pain or sickness or sorrow there. It will be fully life as it was meant to be.

So I definitely go for option one which happens at the end of the age. Why do I not go for option two? Personally, that kind of concept doesn't even make sense. It reminds me more of the Jesus Seminar who says "Easter never happens and Easter always happens."

Furthermore, if this is just a spiritual resurrection, Satan has a victory. He ruined the material world beyond God's repair. No. God's going to redeem the whole material world including our physical bodies.

Hope this helps!
ApologiaNick

[dizzle]

Hello Commonman, here is a link to an article which may assist:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0056a.txt

[commonman]

Nick,

I appreciate your thoughtful response. I have futher questions and comments inserted with blue text. Please do interpret them as confrontational. This is my way of trying to work these concepts out in my mind.

Hi Commonman! Thanks for the question! Let's look at it. The first thing would be to determine what is meant by resurrection.

In Daniel 12:2 for instance, we read about many being brought back to life out of their graves. There is reason to believe that this could refer to what happened when Jesus died. I wholeheartedly agree. What happened then was clearly a physical event. In fact, at the time, many rabbis asked to be buried with their staves in their hands because when Messiah came, they would be resurrected.

In the biblical line of thought, the body does matter. God creates everything in Genesis and calls it good. This includes the material world, something important to consider.

But it was corrupted by the sin of Adam and Eve, so is the creation still good? All creation is to be redeemed though. The question then is, what is redemption? I have always thought of redemption as being made whole. Isn't our fullness only possible with Christ in us?

In Greek thought, the body was seen as the prison of the soul and what one must escape. In Jewish thought though, the soul and body (but which body, I have always understood the Jewish body to be the nation of Israel, because an isolated individual was counted as dead.) would be a unity. Neither is complete without the other. However, the soul can function without the body.

However, Paul does speak in 2 Cor. 5:8 of being absent from the body and present with the Lord.

2 Cor. 5:6 is even more confusing in light of the physical resurrection of the saints, "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:"

He says something similar in Gal 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

So what makes the resurrection so important? Is the body just an extra piece of equipment for this world just waiting to be ditched by us? Hardly.

This is the crux of my question, what is the scriptural evidence for this concept?

The body is good because God created it good. Man is not meant to be without a body. It would almost be like being naked in public, a nightmare some people say they've had. However, I don't see any reason this has to be a one-to-one correspondence where each cell in your body will match each cell you lost. After all, the body is changing constantly. You have new cells dying and old cells coming in. Every seven years, your body is virtually replaced.

But what will rise up? That which would correspond in a greater case. The body will not be immaterial though. Flesh and blood in Hebrew thought was an idiom for the sinful nature. Those who have the sinful nature still will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

Instead, your body will be new and glorified.

Christ was, without doubt resurrected bodily, but even he says to Mary the Magdelene, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Also according to the gospels, the only place the disciples touched Jesus after the resurrection was in the blood. There is something to this, and I am certain it is related to the Hebrew understanding of flesh and blood. I guess my question is will the glorified body be something other than physical?

I believe someone, who for instance, lived in a wheelchair on this Earth, will run down the streets of Heaven.
No offense, but this rubs me wrong. It's like a really bad golfer who plays the perfect game in Heaven. This line of thought reminds me of the mythical Shangri-la, where everyone lives in a perfect physical utopia, and Paul says in Gal 2:20, "But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ."
Why? There is no pain or sickness or sorrow there. It will be fully life as it was meant to be.

So I definitely go for option one which happens at the end of the age. Why do I not go for option two? Personally, that kind of concept doesn't even make sense. It reminds me more of the Jesus Seminar who says "Easter never happens and Easter always happens."

Furthermore, if this is just a spiritual resurrection, Satan has a victory. He ruined the material world beyond God's repair. No. God's going to redeem the whole material world including our physical bodies.

Hope this helps!
ApologiaNick

[commonman]

Hello Commonman, here is a link to an article which may assist:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0056a.txt

DD,
Thanks for the article, but I do not understand how the author made the connection between the physical resurrection of Christ with the resurrection of individual saints. He cites the Apostle's Creed, but the modern version of the Creed, like more ancient versions, closes with

"I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen."

The body in scripture almost always refers to Christ's body the Church, so how did he link this with individual bodies? It is clearly singular in the Apostles' Creed as it is throughout scripture.

I am not trying to be a thorn in the side, I am really struggling to understand this, and right now, I don't, and I appreciate your help.

[dizzle]

But commonman we have writings throughout history as to what was meant by the word in that Creed - we are not free to redefine it. Now I know you are not a hyperpreterist, but here is something else that may assist, for your view is similar to the Max King camp of hyperpreterists. So in short, the article is written combatting hyperpreterism specifically, but the denial of the bodily rez generally.

http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/warrengrave.html

[commonman]

But commonman we have writings throughout history as to what was meant by the word in that Creed - we are not free to redefine it. Now I know you are not a hyperpreterist, but here is something else that may assist, for your view is similar to the Max King camp of hyperpreterists. So in short, the article is written combatting hyperpreterism specifically, but the denial of the bodily rez generally.

http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/warrengrave.html

Thanks,

I am going to go hide in a cave and consider these things.

[National Intelligence Director Phoenix]

Nick,

I appreciate your thoughtful response. I have futher questions and comments inserted with blue text. Please do interpret them as confrontational. This is my way of trying to work these concepts out in my mind.

Alright. First off, for Daniel 12:2, I just agree it refers to what happens in Matthew 27 when Jesus is crucified.

As for the material world, who says that it was corrupted entirely? There has been some suffering put on man, but the material world still had events like earthquakes I'd say before the fall.

While the Jews were not individualists, they did know what a person was, so the term body refers to the body of the person.

Now as for the idea of the resurrection, we know the body matters because it is resurrected! It is said by God to be good in Genesis.

Will the sick be healed in Heaven? Yes! Rev. 21:1-5 makes it clear that there is nothing negative in the state of Heaven.

As for the touching the body of Jesus, I take it to mean that Mary should not cling to him because he would not be staying permanently. Also, there's no record of the disciples touching the blood of Jesus that I know of.