On the Will Being Bound by the Nature.

[johnnybanano]

This is a question for Calvinist, or any proponent of Total Depravity who says that man acts volitionally according to his nature.

I understand -- within the Calvinist framework -- that unregenerate man can only act according to his nature, which is fallen. It makes sense practically because those things that some might argue an unregenerate person does which are righteous are irrelevant to a discussion of righteousness, as righteousness is not in any act, but in faith.

Here's an example of what I mean. . .

A person who's faith has not been placed in Jesus Christ for their salvation claims to be righteous, because they volunteer and give to the poor. The Calvinist (as would almost all Christians) objects, saying that righteousness is not in works, but in faith. They continue saying that no unregenerate person could be righteous because they cannot have faith in Christ for their Salvation, for it's contrary to their unregenerate nature.

*****You'll want to correct me here if I've already misrepresented the Calvinist position*****

The conclusion is that the unregenerate cannot obey the will of God, in this case by having faith, because their nature does not allow for it.

But what happens with the regenerate person? Can they disobey the will of God?

It seems to me that if one cannot act out of accordance with their nature, and the regenerate nature is to obey the will of God, the regenerate cannot disobey the will of God. And because sin violates the will of God, this would leave the regenerate person without the capacity to sin, for it is against their nature.

I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. . .so my question is this:

How is it that regenerate Christians are able to sin, when it goes against their regenerate nature, which is to obey the will of God?

The answer that I come up with in my own head is, "Well, then obeying the will of God must not be their new nature." But if the unregenerate nature is to disobey or rebel against God, wouldn't the regenerate nature be obedience to (the will of) God? How then do we account for the acts of sin that can be found in the life of virtually any saved individual? I understand that these sins are covered and atoned for, but they occur, nonetheless.

I'm not trying to set up a trap or anything, I'm just looking to understand Calvinism a bit better. That's why I posted here instead of Theology 201.

Thanks for any imput,

Daniel

[Calvinist4Him]

:hi: JB, sorry if this reponse doesn't meet whatever expectations you might have.

The conclusion is that the unregenerate cannot obey the will of God, in this case by having faith, because their nature does not allow for it.

According to the "two wills" theory (which I think is true and biblical), which is really one will, but two distinctions in one will, I am inclined to think the unregenerate do "the will of God" even though they disobey God, in the sense that God has ordained them to be "vessels of wrath". It's not like God gazing into eternity doesn't know they will disobey Him, it's not like He doesn't allow them to disobey Him. So in the sense that He allows them the freedom to disobey Him, they are doing His will. Surely we would agree that He could intervene at any given moment and deliver the justice people deserve, but quite often He allows things to happen that we don't like.

But what happens with the regenerate person? Can they disobey the will of God?

The will of God, is for people to have the freedom to choose according to their nature, the regenerate person, while forgiven and free not to sin, is not free from their body of sin or the consequences of sin (we die), so there are two natures at work within a Christ. By the power of the Spirit of GOD the Christian is enabled to overcome their sinful nature. I think the Apostle Paul put it this way; "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." and "Greater is He that is in me..."

It seems to me that if one cannot act out of accordance with their nature, and the regenerate nature is to obey the will of God, the regenerate cannot disobey the will of God. And because sin violates the will of God, this would leave the regenerate person without the capacity to sin, for it is against their nature.

I've had the same thoughts, and I hope my explaination above helps, if not, I'll try to reword or re-phrase my thoughts.

I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. . .so my question is this:

How is it that regenerate Christians are able to sin, when it goes against their regenerate nature, which is to obey the will of God?

Here are a few Scriptures to go with what I've said above:

Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

The answer that I come up with in my own head is, "Well, then obeying the will of God must not be their new nature." But if the unregenerate nature is to disobey or rebel against God, wouldn't the regenerate nature be obedience to (the will of) God? How then do we account for the acts of sin that can be found in the life of virtually any saved individual? I understand that these sins are covered and atoned for, but they occur, nonetheless.

I'm not trying to set up a trap or anything, I'm just looking to understand Calvinism a bit better. That's why I posted here instead of Theology 201.l

I think the answer to the problem is in the "two will" theory which recognizes an active aspect of the will of God, and a passive aspect of God.

I'm thinking you would likely find more in depth answers than I've given in evangelical Calvinist J. I. Packer's books.