James Covill - What the Mormon god didn't know

[Krusader]

In D&C 39, God supposedly gave a revelation that stated that James Covill (a Baptist minister to whom the Mormon gospel had been preached) was now in good standing with the Mormon god. He was commanded to be baptized, and that the Mormon deity was going to send him on a mission to the Ohio. According to the Mormon deity, Covill's heart was now "right."

On the next page, you will find D&C 40, which states that, although James Covill's heart was right - his heart is not right now and he has broken his covenant.

This all took place during the same month.

Question: The Mormon deity seems to have a real problem with knowing what is to come, since he had a great mission he was going to send Covill on, but Covill tricked the Mormon deity into believing his heart was right, when it wasn't right.....

Or perhaps, as I believe, these so called "revelations" are bogus.

[Nosnomis]

In D&C 39, God supposedly gave a revelation that stated that James Covill (a Baptist minister to whom the Mormon gospel had been preached) was now in good standing with the Mormon god. He was commanded to be baptized, and that the Mormon deity was going to send him on a mission to the Ohio. According to the Mormon deity, Covill's heart was now "right."

On the next page, you will find D&C 40, which states that, although James Covill's heart was right - his heart is not right now and he has broken his covenant.

This all took place during the same month.

Question: The Mormon deity seems to have a real problem with knowing what is to come, since he had a great mission he was going to send Covill on, but Covill tricked the Mormon deity into believing his heart was right, when it wasn't right.....

Or perhaps, as I believe, these so called "revelations" are bogus.

His heart was right when the revelation was given. It was only when he started experiancing trials that he fell away. Jesus gave a parable that is a very good example of this, the parable of the Sower. It is found in Matthew 13. Covill easily fits the description of the seed falling into stony places, where the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy recieveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Those were verses 20 and 21. A few years ago, while on splits with a missionary, I met a former Baptist who fell away from his church because he decided that it was better to spend his time drinking at a local bar or boating than going to church. He said that he did feel saved when he joined, but did not like having to devote his time to things that he did not particulary enjoy.

Several months ago, my mom was watching Oprah, and on the show there were three daughters who had been sexually abused every day by their father who was a minister in a church. If God knew that he was going to be such a wicked man, why did he allow him to become a minister, a person who was supposed to be a source of spiritual guidance to others?

God does know what is in our hearts, and he does know what choices we will make, as he has had many eons to observe us as intelligences and as spirits before we came to mortality.

God did know that Covill would fall away. However, to each of us is given agency, and it would not have seemed fair to Covill if the Lord witheld him from the Church just because he would fall away from it in the future. Covill at the time he made his covenant was so very sure that he would remain faithful, and was sincere in his heart at that time, that if the Lord had denied him the ministry it would have seemed to Covill that it wasn't the True Church if people were kept from joining it. I hope this answers your question.

[Krusader]

His heart was right when the revelation was given. It was only when he started experiancing trials that he fell away. Jesus gave a parable that is a very good example of this, the parable of the Sower. It is found in Matthew 13. Covill easily fits the description of the seed falling into stony places, where the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy recieveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Those were verses 20 and 21. A few years ago, while on splits with a missionary, I met a former Baptist who fell away from his church because he decided that it was better to spend his time drinking at a local bar or boating than going to church. He said that he did feel saved when he joined, but did not like having to devote his time to things that he did not particulary enjoy.

Several months ago, my mom was watching Oprah, and on the show there were three daughters who had been sexually abused every day by their father who was a minister in a church. If God knew that he was going to be such a wicked man, why did he allow him to become a minister, a person who was supposed to be a source of spiritual guidance to others?

God does know what is in our hearts, and he does know what choices we will make, as he has had many eons to observe us as intelligences and as spirits before we came to mortality.

God did know that Covill would fall away. However, to each of us is given agency, and it would not have seemed fair to Covill if the Lord witheld him from the Church just because he would fall away from it in the future. Covill at the time he made his covenant was so very sure that he would remain faithful, and was sincere in his heart at that time, that if the Lord had denied him the ministry it would have seemed to Covill that it wasn't the True Church if people were kept from joining it. I hope this answers your question.

No, Jeth, if you read D&C 39 you will note that the Mormon deity had already planned a mission for Covill to Ohio. When Covill decided not to submit to Mormon baptism, the Mormon deity saw his mistake and then you have D&C 40 revealed to cover up D&C 39.

The Christian God knows the end from the beginning, Jeth. He did not call Paul based on the whimsy of Paul's acceptance - he called Paul and gave him the grace to minister to the Gentiles. In the same way, he called Abraham, Moses, Peter, etc. Our performance is not based on our own flimsy ability to fulfill the mission God gives us, but on God's sovereign grace and election.

[Nosnomis]

No, Jeth, if you read D&C 39 you will note that the Mormon deity had already planned a mission for Covill to Ohio. When Covill decided not to submit to Mormon baptism, the Mormon deity saw his mistake and then you have D&C 40 revealed to cover up D&C 39.

The Christian God knows the end from the beginning, Jeth. He did not call Paul based on the whimsy of Paul's acceptance - he called Paul and gave him the grace to minister to the Gentiles. In the same way, he called Abraham, Moses, Peter, etc. Our performance is not based on our own flimsy ability to fulfill the mission God gives us, but on God's sovereign grace and election.

Then why did God call Judas Iscariot as an Apostle?
Balaam was a Prophet, but he accepted money to curse Israel.

The Lord had a mission planned if Covill would hearken unto his voice and be baptized. Verse 10 and 11. Many of the blessings and commandments God gives us are based on our obediance to that which we already have.

Yes, God does give us grace to fulfill our callings, if we first demonstrate the willingness to fulfill those callings. God does not begin by asking about our ability, but our availibility. Once we prove our dependablility, he will increase our capability. Paul showed his willingness to serve after he had seen Christ, just had Abraham, Moses, Peter, etc. And after they demonstrated their willingness and chose Christ, they were given blessings and callings accordingly. Covill originally had a willing heart when he found the church, as mentioned in both sections, but because he was more afraid of persecution, he did not keep the covenants he made. I am sure that this has happened many times in the past during the persecution of the saints during the Roman Empire. They may have found the Church with gladness, but because of the death threats, they may have fallen away.

[Krusader]

Then why did God call Judas Iscariot as an Apostle?
Balaam was a Prophet, but he accepted money to curse Israel.

The Lord had a mission planned if Covill would hearken unto his voice and be baptized. Verse 10 and 11. Many of the blessings and commandments God gives us are based on our obediance to that which we already have.

Yes, God does give us grace to fulfill our callings, if we first demonstrate the willingness to fulfill those callings. God does not begin by asking about our ability, but our availibility. Once we prove our dependablility, he will increase our capability. Paul showed his willingness to serve after he had seen Christ, just had Abraham, Moses, Peter, etc. And after they demonstrated their willingness and chose Christ, they were given blessings and callings accordingly. Covill originally had a willing heart when he found the church, as mentioned in both sections, but because he was more afraid of persecution, he did not keep the covenants he made. I am sure that this has happened many times in the past during the persecution of the saints during the Roman Empire. They may have found the Church with gladness, but because of the death threats, they may have fallen away.

Jeth, Jesus called Judas, but knew that Judas would be used of Satan in betraying Him. Jesus KNEW the hearts of all men.

Jeth, I think you need to sit down and do a study on omniscience: knowing all things, past, present and future. This is a quality of the Christian God, but not of the Mormon deity.

[Nosnomis]

Jeth, Jesus called Judas, but knew that Judas would be used of Satan in betraying Him. Jesus KNEW the hearts of all men.

Jeth, I think you need to sit down and do a study on omniscience: knowing all things, past, present and future. This is a quality of the Christian God, but not of the Mormon deity.

I was using those people as an example of people called, but proven unworthy of the calling.

[Krusader]

I was using those people as an example of people called, but proven unworthy of the calling.

Jeth, what do you believe about the foreknowledge of God?

[Nosnomis]

Jeth, what do you believe about the foreknowledge of God?

I believe that God has had many eons to observe us, and teach us, first as intelligences, then as spirits. With this observation, he knows what choices we would make under what circumstances. He knows the flaws and weaknesses each of us will have in mortality, and he knows that many who were valiant and loyal as intelligences and spirits would not be loyal in mortality with the veil over our minds to keep us from remembering the choices and covenants we made in the premortal life.

With this knowledge, he knew that Covill would not remain true to the Gospel, but Covill still had his agency, and God would not have prevented him from knowing his calling, as that would have made him partial, refusing someone who would not understand the reasons and couldn't know that he would fall short. If Covill was kept from knowing the blessings and the callings, he could complain that God was denying him the opportunity to prove himself.

God did know his flaws, and warned him that he had turned from God in the past (39:9,) but promised that IF he would hearken unto His voice, then He would have a work for him to do.

[Krusader]

I believe that God has had many eons to observe us, and teach us, first as intelligences, then as spirits. With this observation, he knows what choices we would make under what circumstances. He knows the flaws and weaknesses each of us will have in mortality, and he knows that many who were valiant and loyal as intelligences and spirits would not be loyal in mortality with the veil over our minds to keep us from remembering the choices and covenants we made in the premortal life.

With this knowledge, he knew that Covill would not remain true to the Gospel, but Covill still had his agency, and God would not have prevented him from knowing his calling, as that would have made him partial, refusing someone who would not understand the reasons and couldn't know that he would fall short. If Covill was kept from knowing the blessings and the callings, he could complain that God was denying him the opportunity to prove himself.

God did know his flaws, and warned him that he had turned from God in the past (39:9,) but promised that IF he would hearken unto His voice, then He would have a work for him to do.

So, you are saying that God is not Sovereign, and that his revelations are contingent upon the capricious nature of man? Doc. & Cov. 39 being a prime example. This is not the Christian God, Who knows the end from the beginning (see Isa. 46:10).

Also, note that God states in the vs. cited, "My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure."

The Mormon deity seems to have not known the future, called Mr. Covill to a mission (which the Mormon deity apparently did not know would fall through), and told Covill that his heart was right before him, when in reality, Covill had no intention of becoming a Mormon.

[Nosnomis]

So, you are saying that God is not Sovereign, and that his revelations are contingent upon the capricious nature of man? Doc. & Cov. 39 being a prime example. This is not the Christian God, Who knows the end from the beginning (see Isa. 46:10).

Also, note that God states in the vs. cited, "My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure."

The Mormon deity seems to have not known the future, called Mr. Covill to a mission (which the Mormon deity apparently did not know would fall through), and told Covill that his heart was right before him, when in reality, Covill had no intention of becoming a Mormon.

I told you already, God does know everything that is going to happen. And yes his counsel does stand, and he does his pleasure. He did call Mr. Covill to a mission, but it was for Covill to choose to accept the Lord's calling or not. He still had his agency, and chose to not keep his covenant and fall away from the Church. God knew that Judas would betray Christ, yet Judas was still called. Did Judas know he was going to betray Christ when he was called? No, Judas still had to make the personal choice to betray Christ, and suffered accordingly. Just as Covill had to learn for himself the choices he would make, and of course he fell away. At the time that Judas was called, I am sure that he was sincere in his calling, just as Covill was sincere. But both Judas and Covill made the choice to fall away.

[Krusader]

I told you already, God does know everything that is going to happen. And yes his counsel does stand, and he does his pleasure. He did call Mr. Covill to a mission, but it was for Covill to choose to accept the Lord's calling or not. He still had his agency, and chose to not keep his covenant and fall away from the Church. God knew that Judas would betray Christ, yet Judas was still called. Did Judas know he was going to betray Christ when he was called? No, Judas still had to make the personal choice to betray Christ, and suffered accordingly. Just as Covill had to learn for himself the choices he would make, and of course he fell away. At the time that Judas was called, I am sure that he was sincere in his calling, just as Covill was sincere. But both Judas and Covill made the choice to fall away.

Jeth, you have clearly pointed out one of the chief differences between the anthropomorphic, limited Mormon deity who is not omniscient, and the Christian God, who is:

The Christian God states clearly that He knows the END from the BEGINNING:

Is. 9:9,10: "........for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done....."

By the way, Jesus foreknew that Judas was "a devil." Check the Bible.

[Nosnomis]

Jeth, you have clearly pointed out one of the chief differences between the anthropomorphic, limited Mormon deity who is not omniscient, and the Christian God, who is:

The Christian God states clearly that He knows the END from the BEGINNING:

Is. 9:9,10: "........for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done....."

By the way, Jesus foreknew that Judas was "a devil." Check the Bible.

I have already stated that God is omniscient. Yes he does know the end from the beginning.

And I have already mentioned that God knew that even though Covill's heart was right at the time he made the covenant, he would fall away from the Church, but that he still gave Covill the opportunity to prove himself, just as he gave Judas the opportunity to prove himself.

[Krusader]

I have already stated that God is omniscient. Yes he does know the end from the beginning.

And I have already mentioned that God knew that even though Covill's heart was right at the time he made the covenant, he would fall away from the Church, but that he still gave Covill the opportunity to prove himself, just as he gave Judas the opportunity to prove himself.

Your idea of an omnisicient God and the Christian doctrine of omnicient are two different things, Jeth. Here is another example: The Mormon deity supposedly orders Mormons to settle in Missouri, which is going to be Zion. When the Missourians didn't take kindly to Mormon claims on their state and began chasing them out, the great prophet, Joseph Smith, claimed that God had chastened the Mormons because they weren't really being obedient. Another case of the Mormon deity changing his mind based on human frailities. Of course, in the OT the Jews, who were always being disobedient, did obtain the Promised Land eventually, according to the Sovereign will of God.

And also, didn't Jesus say, "hath not I chosen you all and one of you is a devil." Jesus knew exactly who Judas was from the beginning - he wasn't giving him a "chance" to reform. It was in the soteriological economy of God that this "devil" would bring about the death of Christ, which also defeated Satan.....the irony of God!