I was watching the History Channle and was really bothered by something I heard.

[OckhamsRazor]

Jon
a.k.a OckhamsRazor
St. Paul MN.

I was watching a documentary on the French Revolution and there was a history professor from Johns Hopkins University on it. He said the French was the most important event in Western history. I really feel that this was a silly thing to say. I get the impression that perhaps this guy is a liberal politically and it's leaking into his statements. That's about the only way I think that he could make that statement. In my opinion, Christianity and the Roman empire were the most important things/events in Western history. After that I would say the American revolution, which resulted in the liberation of billions of people world wide. After all, we'd all be speaking german right now if America didn't exsist.

Looking forward to your comments,

Ock

[Darth Executor]

Jon
a.k.a OckhamsRazor
St. Paul MN.

I was watching a documentary on the French Revolution and there was a history professor from Johns Hopkins University on it. He said the French was the most important event in Western history. I really feel that this was a silly thing to say. I get the impression that perhaps this guy is a liberal politically and it's leaking into his statements. That's about the only way I think that he could make that statement. In my opinion, Christianity and the Roman empire were the most important things/events in Western history. After that I would say the American revolution, which resulted in the liberation of billions of people world wide. After all, we'd all be speaking german right now if America didn't exsist.

Looking forward to your comments,

Ock


You mean world war two? Just so you know, not everybody benefitted from Germany losing WW2. Personally, I'd rather speak german than speak communist.

[Nicholas]

Jon
a.k.a OckhamsRazor
St. Paul MN.

I was watching a documentary on the French Revolution and there was a history professor from Johns Hopkins University on it. He said the French was the most important event in Western history. I really feel that this was a silly thing to say. I get the impression that perhaps this guy is a liberal politically and it's leaking into his statements. That's about the only way I think that he could make that statement. In my opinion, Christianity and the Roman empire were the most important things/events in Western history. After that I would say the American revolution, which resulted in the liberation of billions of people world wide. After all, we'd all be speaking german right now if America didn't exsist.

Looking forward to your comments,

Any event could have some affect on history, if the American Revolution hadn't happened why would everything be the same except for that?

[Harfelugan]

Looking forward to your comments,

Ock
Printing press beats em all !!!!!! Outside of the Jesus stuff that is .

[Hail Mary]

I was watching a documentary on the French Revolution and there was a history professor from Johns Hopkins University on it. He said the French was the most important event in Western history. I really feel that this was a silly thing to say. I get the impression that perhaps this guy is a liberal politically and it's leaking into his statements. That's about the only way I think that he could make that statement.

Ock: Doesn't it seem lately that the history channel has aired more UFO stories than good programs about, uhh, history?

Anyway, about the professor, the producers probably called several "experts" before deciding which to interview and which to air. One good way to make sure they pick you is to say "This is the MOST important event in the history of history, blah blah, yada yada." That's sure to get you on the air, then you can plug your book, and be famous and retire to the Alps.

I hate to be so cynical about this, but many times I think its more about notoriety than history.

[OckhamsRazor]

Any event could have some affect on history, if the American Revolution hadn't happened why would everything be the same except for that?

Before we entered the war, the UK was losing the war. They were victims of the Blitz Krieg. They would have enventualy been invaded by the Germans. The United States turned the tide of that war. Americ's resources, man power, engineering, coupled with the UK's millitary and engineering was more than the Germans could take on. Admittedly, the fight with the Russians put a great strain on Germany's resources. With the combined efforts of all the countries we beat Hitler. I would say that the one country in the equation is the only one that cannot be done with out. The United States is that country.

I would go further in pointing out that the US is the first country to ever attempt to build a bi-racial society (Stephen Ambrose/ To America). I think that the US makes enough food to feed every person on the planet a 3000 calorie a day diet. I could be wrong about that. I know that we are the society that gives more interms of charity by the citizens than any other country.

Sincerely,

Ock~

[Conductor42]

Jon
a.k.a OckhamsRazor
St. Paul MN.

I was watching a documentary on the French Revolution and there was a history professor from Johns Hopkins University on it. He said the French was the most important event in Western history. I really feel that this was a silly thing to say. I get the impression that perhaps this guy is a liberal politically and it's leaking into his statements. That's about the only way I think that he could make that statement. In my opinion, Christianity and the Roman empire were the most important things/events in Western history. After that I would say the American revolution, which resulted in the liberation of billions of people world wide. After all, we'd all be speaking german right now if America didn't exsist.

Looking forward to your comments,

Ock
The founding fathers *almost* made German the official language

[!Fluffy!]

The founding fathers *almost* made German the official language

Wow.
Really?

[CatholicSage]

Well, if I had to pick the single most important event in Western history, it certainly wouldn't be the French Revolution. I would probably pick Alexander's conquest and hellenization of much of the known world, and his young death. Or perhaps the rise of Christianity,speaking in secular terms, that is; obviously from a Christian viewpoint Christianity was the most important event.

[Hail Mary]

Before we entered the war, the UK was losing the war. They were victims of the Blitz Krieg. They would have enventualy been invaded by the Germans. The United States turned the tide of that war. Americ's resources, man power, engineering, coupled with the UK's millitary and engineering was more than the Germans could take on. Admittedly, the fight with the Russians put a great strain on Germany's resources. With the combined efforts of all the countries we beat Hitler. I would say that the one country in the equation is the only one that cannot be done with out. The United States is that country.

Not really, the UK handed the Nazis their first big defeat in the Battle of Britain. Once the Luftwaffe was beaten, there was really no way for the Nazis to make it across the channel, so the UK was pretty much safe from invasion after that. We (the US) definitely helped out a lot, but it was the Brits that saved themselves.

[EvoUK]

The French Revolution was one of the big turning points in recent western history, I'd definately say that much. But then again any programme discussing the most important event would basically be one of opinion.

[TheOneAndOnly]

Before we entered the war, the UK was losing the war. They were victims of the Blitz Krieg. They would have enventualy been invaded by the Germans.

Actually, no we wouldn't. Hitler didn't have the military capacity to launch an invasion of Britain. Think about D-Day, how difficult that was. Now reverse it, and instead of having a clear channel for the US/UK/Canadian vessels and amphibious landing craft to sail through, imagine a powerful navy prowling the coast of Britain. The German high command never attempted an invasion because they knew it wouldn't be successful. Operation Sea Lion was never going to happen. The British were so worried about the threat of invasion at the time because of faulty intelligence. We thought they had more aircraft than they actually did.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Operation-Sea-Lion
In wargames conducted at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst after the war, which assumed that the Germans had total air superiority, the Germans were able to establish a beachhead in England by using a minefield screen in the English Channel. However, after a few days, the Royal Navy was able to cut off supplies to German troops in England, and they were then isolated and forced to surrender.


...and no, we wouldn't all be speaking German if it wasn't for America.



The United States turned the tide of that war.

In the Pacific yes. Britain and allies were doing miserably until America entered, and US supplies and resources were greatly needed for the British and SSoviet war effort. In Europe, the most significant war was between Germany and the Soviet Union. This was where 25+ million Soviets died. The battles of Berlin, Moscow, Kursk, Stalingrad etc were arguably the most important of the war.

Americ's resources, man power, engineering, coupled with the UK's millitary and engineering was more than the Germans could take on. Admittedly, the fight with the Russians put a great strain on Germany's resources. With the combined efforts of all the countries we beat Hitler. I would say that the one country in the equation is the only one that cannot be done with out. The United States is that country.

The German's were far more preoccupied with the Eastern front than the US, UK war. The war with the Soviets was a total war of annihilation.


I would go further in pointing out that the US is the first country to ever attempt to build a bi-racial society (Stephen Ambrose/ To America).

What does that mean? America had slavery long after the British Empire banned it.


I think that the US makes enough food to feed every person on the planet a 3000 calorie a day diet.

I heard Brazil is currently the largest food manufacturer.


In my opinion, Christianity and the Roman empire were the most important things/events in Western history.

Undoubtedly Christianity was important. However, is Christianity an event? Maybe the historian was talking about specific events. In which case Constantine's conversion would be important. The first call to crusade by Urban II in 1096 really shaped European relations with it's neighbours for the next thousand years. The Battle of Hastings in 1066 flipped England's polarity froma Nordic focused nation into a latinized, francophone nation, whose rivalry with France set in motion the rise of the nation state.


After that I would say the American revolution, which resulted in the liberation of billions of people world wide.

Really? The American Revolution was undoubtedly a major event in history. I think Americans tend to overplay the whole "fighting for liberty and justice" angle. Americans don't tend to mention the thousands of American patriots who fought for the motherland (England). They've been villified into a small clutch of cowardly traitors and other charicatures.


After all, we'd all be speaking german right now if America didn't exsist.

What language would you be speaking if England didn't exist?

[TheOneAndOnly]

I would probably pick Alexander's conquest and hellenization of much of the known world, and his young death.

How about the Punic Wars, which set the Mediterrenean under (greek influenced) Roman control for centuries, and shaped the future of Europe. Had the Carthaginians won, the Mediterrenean world would have been one of blood sacrifices (I heard the Phoenicians were into human sacrifice) and Phoenician domination, which means no Roman rule in Judea. From a secular point of view that means no reactionary religious thinkers and anti-Roman political dissidents. I.e. No Jesus.
I would like to see what Europe would have been like had the Carthaginians won the Punic Wars. They probably wouldn't have gone on to dominate Europe as much as the Romans did, but I expect they'd spread their weird culture across the world like the Romans did theirs.

[Darth Executor]

In the Pacific yes. Britain and allies were doing miserably until America entered, and US supplies and resources were greatly needed for the British and SSoviet war effort. In Europe, the most significant war was between Germany and the Soviet Union. This was where 25+ million Soviets died. The battles of Berlin, Moscow, Kursk, Stalingrad etc were arguably the most important of the war.


The americans saved the soviets' butt by giving them equipment. There is no way Russia would have beaten Germany if it wasn't for the US, regardless of how many stupid tactical mistakes Hitler made.

[Thomas2003]

Jon
a.k.a OckhamsRazor
St. Paul MN.

I was watching a documentary on the French Revolution and there was a history professor from Johns Hopkins University on it. He said the French was the most important event in Western history. I really feel that this was a silly thing to say. I get the impression that perhaps this guy is a liberal politically and it's leaking into his statements. That's about the only way I think that he could make that statement. In my opinion, Christianity and the Roman empire were the most important things/events in Western history. After that I would say the American revolution, which resulted in the liberation of billions of people world wide. After all, we'd all be speaking german right now if America didn't exsist.

Looking forward to your comments,

Ock


From the humanist point of view the French Revolution was a great thing - it revolted against history itself proposing to remake all things in man's image, for example, they even started the calendar over. It is man rising to the pinnacle of his claim to be god, and this is a great thing in the reprobate mind, because they cast down everything - all foundations. Humanist man is rootless man, anything that ties him into history he hates because it then defines him and and he is unable to define history pursuant to his own terms. If he can pull himself up by the roots he is liberated from the tyranny of creation, then he can prove to himself he is a god by redefining all things in terms of himself.

[CatholicSage]

How about the Punic Wars, which set the Mediterrenean under (greek influenced) Roman control for centuries, and shaped the future of Europe. Had the Carthaginians won, the Mediterrenean world would have been one of blood sacrifices (I heard the Phoenicians were into human sacrifice) and Phoenician domination, which means no Roman rule in Judea.


Good point; this was also important.



From a secular point of view that means no reactionary religious thinkers and anti-Roman political dissidents. I.e. No Jesus.


Well, assuming that Jesus was merely a reactionary anti-Roman religious leader as you say (:ahem: BTW), who's to say that he wouldn't simply have been a reactionary anti-Carthaginian religious leader? It seems likely that Carthage, as a former colony of Phoenicia, would've at least taken over the region of their old "mother land," even if they never achieved the kind of pan-European dominance that Rome did.



I would like to see what Europe would have been like had the Carthaginians won the Punic Wars. They probably wouldn't have gone on to dominate Europe as much as the Romans did, but I expect they'd spread their weird culture across the world like the Romans did theirs.

Yeah, I sometimes wonder about that. I always root for Hannibal whenever I see a show on him, just like I always root for the Trojans whenever I watch Troy. :smile: Maybe I should start rooting for al Qaeda... :eek:

[Conductor42]

Wow.
Really?

I did a little more research into that. It turns out that it was a semi-myth. According to Wikipedia, there was an attempt to have all federal documents avaliable in English AND German. Similar, but not exactly the same thing.

[TheOneAndOnly]

Well, assuming that Jesus was merely a reactionary anti-Roman religious leader as you say ( BTW), who's to say that he wouldn't simply have been a reactionary anti-Carthaginian religious leader?

Fair point. Since you are Christian you have a different view of Jesus than me. I see him as a Jewish reformer and anti-Roman martyr (assuming he existeed = o|). Obviously you have a different view of him. So were the Carths into crucifixion? I wonder how they would have delat with Jesus???


...just like I always root for the Trojans whenever I watch Troy.

I always root for someone, anyone, to turn off the DVD player. The movie is about 2 hours too long.


Maybe I should start rooting for al Qaeda...

Well, in a way I agree. They stand absolutely no chance whatsoever of toppling the US government. In fact they can't even topple the Saudi government, which has been hanging by a thread for years. Their tactics, while terrifying, are pretty much useless. They haven't even scratched the West's war machine, or the industry behind it. Their tactics are obsolete.. The London bombings showed this. They are completely and utterly beaten (except in Iraq). The underdogs always need a good cheer squad. So give me an A! Give me an L! Give me a Q...

[Cleombrotus]

Jon
a.k.a OckhamsRazor
St. Paul MN.

I was watching a documentary on the French Revolution and there was a history professor from Johns Hopkins University on it. He said the French was the most important event in Western history. I really feel that this was a silly thing to say. I get the impression that perhaps this guy is a liberal politically and it's leaking into his statements. That's about the only way I think that he could make that statement. In my opinion, Christianity and the Roman empire were the most important things/events in Western history. After that I would say the American revolution, which resulted in the liberation of billions of people world wide. After all, we'd all be speaking german right now if America didn't exsist.

Looking forward to your comments,

Ock


Your baloney detector is in fine working order, Ock. About the only use I have for the TV any more is for checkups on mine.

[OckhamsRazor]

Not really, the UK handed the Nazis their first big defeat in the Battle of Britain. Once the Luftwaffe was beaten, there was really no way for the Nazis to make it across the channel, so the UK was pretty much safe from invasion after that. We (the US) definitely helped out a lot, but it was the Brits that saved themselves.

I disagree. They were able to stop the first attempt by the Germans but how long would it have taken Germany to try agian. D-day would have been impossible with out the US. Germany would have maintained Frances resources and man power and strategic location. Eventually they would have tried again. The Brits didn't have anywhere near the resources to repel another attack from Germany. I think you're forgeting Hitlers "Vengance wepons". I've heard that had he fully developed those wepons any earlier it would have turned the tide of the war even with the US. The Russians took up alot of Hitler's resources and that made it very difficult for Germany to respond to the US/Brit attack on D-day. They still might have won that had Romel been able to get there with his panzers. What it comes down to is with out the US all of the above countries would have fallen at the hands of Hitler eventually. You know it's ironic that the Russians wouldn't even had had one its own resources with out a US engineer. That enigeer was Christie or Christy I'm not sure how to spell it. He was the one who originated the first of the T series tanks. The US wouldn't buy them so he sold the design to the Russians.

[OckhamsRazor]

Fair point. Since you are Christian you have a different view of Jesus than me. I see him as a Jewish reformer and anti-Roman martyr (assuming he existeed = o|). Obviously you have a different view of him. So were the Carths into crucifixion? I wonder how they would have delat with Jesus???

Jesus wasn't anti-Roman. That's one of the things many Judeans were disillusioned with. He would not promote the Zealots. Jewish reformer is partly accurate. If he existed?!! I don't know of any serious scholar that would question wether Jesus existed. Rome or the Carths was not or would not be the ones to had or have dealt with Him. Pilot tried repeatedly to free Him. When he had Jesus flogged and then brought out Barabas he figured that there would be no way that they would choose Barabas and then he could set Jesus free. Jesus was asked by the Judean leaders "Should we pay taxes to Ceaser" in hopes of tricking Him; thinking that either answer would doom Him. He answered "He asked for a coin and then He asked "Whos picture is this on the coin? They answered "Ceasars." He answered them saying "Then give unto Ceasars what is Ceasars and unto God what is God's"

I always root for someone, anyone, to turn off the DVD player. The movie is about 2 hours too long.



Well, in a way I agree. They stand absolutely no chance whatsoever of toppling the US government. In fact they can't even topple the Saudi government, which has been hanging by a thread for years. Their tactics, while terrifying, are pretty much useless. They haven't even scratched the West's war machine, or the industry behind it. Their tactics are obsolete.. The London bombings showed this. They are completely and utterly beaten (except in Iraq). The underdogs always need a good cheer squad. So give me an A! Give me an L! Give me a Q...[/QUOTE]

[OckhamsRazor]

Sorry about the above post, I accidentally reproduced part of the post I was answering.

[Dave G]

The French Revolution was kind of a series of revolutions...Napoleon was a general in the overthrow of the monarchy, but set himself up as Emperor not much later. The attitude that the French revolution was a high-water mark is that held by the Romantics at the same time. This must have been a guy who really liked to read Wordsworth.

[learning]

hmm, Historically, was it 1215, the Magna Charter? (re: Western World)
then , printing press, freedom to access the Bible and other books eventually, industrial revolution, telescope, microscope, trains, motor cars, electricity and finally, radio, t.v. and the internet and PC's information revolution.

[Ben Franklin]

From the humanist point of view the French Revolution was a great thing -

Right...! Liberty, equality, fraternity... These ideas just didn't exist until the French Revolution...! These ideas transformed Western political thinking...!

[Snarf]

Jon
a.k.a OckhamsRazor
St. Paul MN.

I was watching a documentary on the French Revolution and there was a history professor from Johns Hopkins University on it. He said the French was the most important event in Western history. I really feel that this was a silly thing to say. I get the impression that perhaps this guy is a liberal politically and it's leaking into his statements. That's about the only way I think that he could make that statement. In my opinion, Christianity and the Roman empire were the most important things/events in Western history. After that I would say the American revolution, which resulted in the liberation of billions of people world wide. After all, we'd all be speaking german right now if America didn't exsist.

Looking forward to your comments,

Ock

Eh, how did the American revolution liberate billions of people? You mean, the collective populations of China and India (2.5 billion) are free today because of Yorktown? I'm also curious as to how WWII would have been won without the Soviet union, which took the heaviest attack of the German army (3 million soldiers invaded). The US faced very minor German forces, relatively speaking, and even then had problems (not to mention that they were accompanied by many British soldiers).

[Snarf]

I disagree. They were able to stop the first attempt by the Germans but how long would it have taken Germany to try agian. D-day would have been impossible with out the US. Germany would have maintained Frances resources and man power and strategic location. Eventually they would have tried again. The Brits didn't have anywhere near the resources to repel another attack from Germany. I think you're forgeting Hitlers "Vengance wepons". I've heard that had he fully developed those wepons any earlier it would have turned the tide of the war even with the US. The Russians took up alot of Hitler's resources and that made it very difficult for Germany to respond to the US/Brit attack on D-day. They still might have won that had Romel been able to get there with his panzers. What it comes down to is with out the US all of the above countries would have fallen at the hands of Hitler eventually. You know it's ironic that the Russians wouldn't even had had one its own resources with out a US engineer. That enigeer was Christie or Christy I'm not sure how to spell it. He was the one who originated the first of the T series tanks. The US wouldn't buy them so he sold the design to the Russians.

DDay would also have been impossible without the British Navy,, and you conveniently forget to mention that the Soviets made it into berlin before we did, even though the german armies that we faced were far smaller than the Soviets faced.

[Snarf]

The americans saved the soviets' butt by giving them equipment. There is no way Russia would have beaten Germany if it wasn't for the US, regardless of how many stupid tactical mistakes Hitler made.

The US did give the Soviets equipment, but what saved the Soviets was their own mass manpower and equipment-you think that Americans made the superior Soviet Mark VI tank, which were used by the thousands? Just how much equipment do you think could have been airlifted or transported through Siberia?

[Snarf]

The americans saved the soviets' butt by giving them equipment. There is no way Russia would have beaten Germany if it wasn't for the US, regardless of how many stupid tactical mistakes Hitler made.

Correction:
I erred, the Soviet tank was the T-4, the mark VI was the last version of the Panzer.

[Ben Franklin]

That's true... The Russians had a lot of untapped resources, and the lend-lease stuff was just to help Stalin stall the germans, not defeat them. If I had a choice, I wouldn't have accepted Sherman tanks, no siree, bob...! I think it was Stalin who felt Britain and America were dragging their feet as the Russians took the brunt of the Wehrmacht head-on... And that's why D-Day happen before the planners wanted: to give Stalin proof the other Allies were not just all talk.

[Richbee]

Jon
a.k.a OckhamsRazor
St. Paul MN.

I was watching a documentary on the French Revolution and there was a history professor from Johns Hopkins University on it. He said the French was the most important event in Western history...... Ock

I would rank your English grammer as silly.

Could you try again? Are you trying to say that the support of France against Great Britain in our Revolutionary War changed all of history, and ranks as the "most important event"? Perhaps it was the person:Lafayette?

[learning]

Right...! Liberty, equality, fraternity... These ideas just didn't exist until the French Revolution...! These ideas transformed Western political thinking...!


hmm, liberty ... quotes from the Bible 'If the Son makes you free, you are free indeed.'

hmmm.... equality, fraternity
'For there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, for all are one in Christ Jesus.'

[Snarf]

Fair point. Since you are Christian you have a different view of Jesus than me. I see him as a Jewish reformer and anti-Roman martyr (assuming he existeed = o|). Obviously you have a different view of him. So were the Carths into crucifixion? I wonder how they would have delat with Jesus???


A couple of differences-Carthage was not primarily a land-occupying power. The Carthaginian Emipire was more one of trade dominance, in many ways it was similar to the British Empire; it dominated foreign governments, and used mercenaries in war.

The Carthaginians had cricufixion long before the Romans-probably the Romans got it from them. Enemies of the state, and cowardly and unsuccessful generals were crucified (probably not common thieves).

[learning]

Right...! Liberty, equality, fraternity... These ideas just didn't exist until the French Revolution...! These ideas transformed Western political thinking...!

Something just didn't ring right with this. Here's a blurb about a book about the Magna Charter
'The Magna Charter' by James Dougherty
The principle that citizens have inalienable rights and that even kings are obligated to obey the law is magnificiently expressed in the Magne Charter, signed by King John on June 15, 1215. '

[Barry Desborough]

I know that we are the society that gives more interms of charity by the citizens than any other country.

Sincerely,

Ock~

Charity by citizen in proportion to official aid and welfare, possibly.

I do not have specific information on his sources, but according to Peter Singer in 'One World'; from UN 2000 figures, United States official foreign aid was 0.1% of GNP, bottom of the table of developed nations. Adding private donations brings it to 0.14% - still bottom. Only Denmark, The Netherlands and Norway meet or exceed the long-standing UN target of 0.7%.

According to the same book, surveys reveal that Americans commonly believe 10% to 20% of the federal budget is spent on foreign aid, and want it cut to between 5% and 10%. That 'cut' would actually increase it by 50 to 100 - fold.

[MisseLaneius]

hmm, liberty ... quotes from the Bible 'If the Son makes you free, you are free indeed.'

hmmm.... equality, fraternity
'For there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, for all are one in Christ Jesus.'

And yet, for all that Europe were predominantly Christian throughout many hundreds of years, the different governments still managed to stop any kind of liberty, equality (and to a certain extent) fraternity. The divine right of kings? The feudal system?

It was the French Revolution that put these concepts on a world stage. A stage which the church had certainly not championed - the church's interests lay in being friends with the rich and powerful. What the French Revolution did was unlock the belief that people should have a say in their future. This is the bedrock of democracy, a more widely held belief (IMO) than any single religion.

[Nicholas]

Before we entered the war, the UK was losing the war. They were victims of the Blitz Krieg. They would have enventualy been invaded by the Germans. The United States turned the tide of that war. Americ's resources, man power, engineering, coupled with the UK's millitary and engineering was more than the Germans could take on. Admittedly, the fight with the Russians put a great strain on Germany's resources. With the combined efforts of all the countries we beat Hitler. I would say that the one country in the equation is the only one that cannot be done with out. The United States is that country.

I would go further in pointing out that the US is the first country to ever attempt to build a bi-racial society (Stephen Ambrose/ To America). I think that the US makes enough food to feed every person on the planet a 3000 calorie a day diet. I could be wrong about that. I know that we are the society that gives more interms of charity by the citizens than any other country.

Sincerely,

Ock~

I'm surprised I never responded to this, but I guess now is better than never.

The problem is that if the American Revolution never happened, there would likely be no World War Two, or World War One for that matter. This is because of what is known as the Butterfly Effect. For example, in a world without the American Revolution people who would have died don't, certain people might not be born. You have a sort of ripple effect. There is no reason to expect that history would take the same path. Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, and Roosevelt would never have been born.

[Abykale]

Right...! Liberty, equality, fraternity... These ideas just didn't exist until the French Revolution...!

You have got to be kidding. The French Revolution was inspired by the American Revolution, which itself drew on the ideas of European philosophers. Not to say that the French Revolution had no effect in spreading these ideals, but it was neither the first nor the only event to do so.

(At least, that's what I learned in my history classes here in America . . . :wink:)

[Catholicity]

Oh...yes the French Revolution.....Well...quite frankly social scientists, look at the French revolution and point to it for its spark of imperialism in all reality, their is a certain aspect, to which the quote you refer to happens to be true. Were it not for imperialism, the Germans wouldn't have become a competitive nation with the Dutch and the English. For it was that Competition which sparked WWI, the Great Depression, Followed by WWII, which at its end Sparked the State of Israe. And to Elaborate, England drew lines on the Nations it Conquered, in Africa and the Middle East Sparking wars between the Tribes and a desire for the fundamentalists of those Nations to Terrorize the "English and all its Allies" Source "The Western Tradition"

[Rushing Jaws]

You mean world war two? Just so you know, not everybody benefitted from Germany losing WW2. Personally, I'd rather speak german than speak communist.## Pity the British kept out of it; they might actually have been some use.

Oh, wait...

As everyone knows, the Land of the Free Did it all. Alone. Including taking in ex-Nazis...

That's the kind of self-magnifying & self-adoring US dreck that really gets people's backs up outside the US. It doesn't win friends, & it does alienate people. Which is a pity, because inside the US is a decent nation struggling to get out.

[Rushing Jaws]

hmm, liberty ... quotes from the Bible 'If the Son makes you free, you are free indeed.'

hmmm.... equality, fraternity
'For there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, for all are one in Christ Jesus.'## In the same sense as Hungary was liberated in 1956 from the the deviationist Imre Nagy & his lickspittle lackeys ?

Where is this much-touted freedom ? I think we should be told :smile:

[Cybelle Hawke]

## [SIZE=2][COLOR=darkred]Oh, wait...

As everyone knows, the Land of the Free Did it all. Alone. Including taking in ex-Nazis...

That's the kind of self-magnifying & self-adoring US dreck that really gets people's backs up outside the US. It doesn't win friends, & it does alienate people. Which is a pity, because inside the US is a decent nation struggling to get out.




Agreed.

Personally I got REALLY annoyed by the OP of the author of this thread.

Moreover, there is a little event called Pearl Harbour..... if the USA wanted to free the world they could have stepped in before right? And another big moreover, the jews were being prosecuted and slaughtered by Nazi Germany... so if morals were the motive here, the great USA should have stepped in right on the moment Hitler enter Poland!

Thank you for letting me vent!

[Cybelle Hawke]

oh yeah and a big event in (the far) western history to me..... is that a lot, really a lot of the Indian race and culture has been whiped off the map (from the map that today is called the USA...)

[Hannah]

Calm down sis.... don´t let this silly thread upset you.

Let us be grateful what the USA did and is doing.

As to WOII, they saved a lot of lives - and sacrificed them as well - together with the British, Canadians, Polish and Brazilian soldiers (just to mention a few) and they could not have done so much if it were not for the French, Belgian and Dutch resistance helping them.

When it comes to handing out medals.... the only one that really counts is G_d´s right?

Love ya... (could have phoned to say this but I need to post to get my avatar....)

[shunyadragon]

Jon
a.k.a OckhamsRazor
St. Paul MN.

I was watching a documentary on the French Revolution and there was a history professor from Johns Hopkins University on it. He said the French was the most important event in Western history. I really feel that this was a silly thing to say. I get the impression that perhaps this guy is a liberal politically and it's leaking into his statements. That's about the only way I think that he could make that statement. In my opinion, Christianity and the Roman empire were the most important things/events in Western history. After that I would say the American revolution, which resulted in the liberation of billions of people world wide. After all, we'd all be speaking german right now if America didn't exist.

Looking forward to your comments,

Ock

Actually, many historians consider this one of the primary hallmarks of recent history, because it fractured and weakened the royal houses of Europe, signaling the beginning of the end of the rule of kings and czars. I would pick several hallmark's of history, not just one.