Is the Watchtower God's Organization?

[Apologia4JC18]

Introduction

All too often in discussions with the Witnesses, Christians (myself included) tend to begin with points relating to the Trinity, the nature of saving faith, or the character of Christ’s Resurrection. While trivial matters should be avoided (and thus it is good to focus on essential issues such as these), it must also be remembered that crooked lenses yield crooked images. Thus, as long as Witnesses are operating under the assumption that the Watchtower is the sole channel through which God communicates his truth today, debates of a scriptural nature are all but futile. Because of this, we must first undertake the task of demonstrating that the Watchtower is not the “faithful and wise servant” that it is claimed to be.

First however, it must be acknowledged that discovering the truth about the Watchtower in no way impugns the truth of the Bible. Witnesses themselves will admit that they follow the Watchtower because of the Bible, not the Bible because of the Watchtower. This is an important point to stress in the event that the Watchtower is found to be an organization lacking divine appointment. In such a case, the faithful Witness ought to disassociate themselves from it and seek more earnestly to know the truths revealed in Scripture, rather than tossing the baby out with the proverbial bath water.


Thus Saith Jehovah...

Central to the claim of the Watchtower’s authority is the belief that God’s Word (the Bible) is sufficient for all we are to believe as Christians. If this were to be denied, the entire foundation of Watchtower theology would be toppled; for if God is without a sufficient Word, then a fallible organization could have no authority upon which to base its claims. Obviously then, without the authority of God such a group could not constitute the organization of God.

Also axiomatic to the minds of most Witnesses is the fact that those holding dear to the Bible and to God should of necessity find their way into his dispenser of truth. If this were not the case, one would certainly have grounds upon which to question the group’s authenticity, for it is their claim that no one else on earth possesses the ’’keys’’ necessary to unlock the mysteries of the Scriptures.

Thus, the veracity of the Watchtower hinges on both the sufficiency of Scripture and the demand it makes on all those considering themselves obedient to the Gospel to find solace under the umbrella of its protection. From this we can deduce that if the Bible gives insufficient testimony to the Watchtower (thus rendering the Word of God insufficient), it (the WT) is therefore exposed as a merely human institution passing itself off as divine. Stated more formally, the argument takes this form:

(1) If the Watchtower is God’s Organization, this fact would be adequately conveyed in His Word.

(2) This fact not adequately conveyed in His Word.
_________________________________________
Therefore the Watchtower is not God’s Organization


A Single Alternative

The first premise must be presupposed in order to even assert that God has an organization. What of the second? It is readily admitted that the organization known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society did not exist until the 19th Century. The best the faithful Witness can do is contend that an accurate identification of the group may be made due to certain qualities it alone possesses. Let us pause to consider the viability of this position.

The problem the Witnesses must face is the fact that such a position is never advocated by Scripture itself. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that an earthly organization guided by God would be identifiable through a single doctrine or practice. Thus, such a contention would only serve to foster further doubt upon the sufficiency of God’s Word. Since such a route ends only in skepticism, one must conclude that it is doomed to failure.


Conclusion

As we have seen, the structure and message of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society undermines the sufficiency of God's Word. As such, it can be anything but an organization guided by His hand.

[Krusader]

Introduction



All too often in discussions with the Witnesses, Christians (myself included) tend to begin with points relating to the Trinity, the nature of saving faith, or the character of Christ’s Resurrection. While trivial matters should be avoided (and thus it is good to focus on essential issues such as these), it must also be remembered that crooked lenses yield crooked images. Thus, as long as Witnesses are operating under the assumption that the Watchtower is the sole channel through which God communicates his truth today, debates of a scriptural nature are all but futile. Because of this, we must first undertake the task of demonstrating that the Watchtower is not the “faithful and wise servant” that it is claimed to be.

First however, it must be acknowledged that discovering the truth about the Watchtower in no way impugns the truth of the Bible. Witnesses themselves will admit that they follow the Watchtower because of the Bible, not the Bible because of the Watchtower. This is an important point to stress in the event that the Watchtower is found to be an organization lacking divine appointment. In such a case, the faithful Witness ought to disassociate themselves from it and seek more earnestly to know the truths revealed in Scripture, rather than tossing the baby out with the proverbial bath water.




Thus Saith Jehovah...



Central to the claim of the Watchtower’s authority is the belief that God’s Word (the Bible) is sufficient for all we are to believe as Christians. If this were to be denied, the entire foundation of Watchtower theology would be toppled; for if God is without a sufficient Word, then a fallible organization could have no authority upon which to base its claims. Obviously then, without the authority of God such a group could not constitute the organization of God.

Also axiomatic to the minds of most Witnesses is the fact that those holding dear to the Bible and to God should of necessity find their way into his dispenser of truth. If this were not the case, one would certainly have grounds upon which to question the group’s authenticity, for it is their claim that no one else on earth possesses the ’’keys’’ necessary to unlock the mysteries of the Scriptures.

Thus, the veracity of the Watchtower hinges on both the sufficiency of Scripture and the demand it makes on all those considering themselves obedient to the Gospel to find solace under the umbrella of its protection. From this we can deduce that if the Bible gives insufficient testimony to the Watchtower (thus rendering the Word of God insufficient), it (the WT) is therefore exposed as a merely human institution passing itself off as divine. Stated more formally, the argument takes this form:

(1) If the Watchtower is God’s Organization, this fact would be adequately conveyed in His Word.

(2) This fact not adequately conveyed in His Word.
_________________________________________
Therefore the Watchtower is not God’s Organization




A Single Alternative



The first premise must be presupposed in order to even assert that God has an organization. What of the second? It is readily admitted that the organization known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society did not exist until the 19th Century. The best the faithful Witness can do is contend that an accurate identification of the group may be made due to certain qualities it alone possesses. Let us pause to consider the viability of this position.

The problem the Witnesses must face is the fact that such a position is never advocated by Scripture itself. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that an earthly organization guided by God would be identifiable through a single doctrine or practice. Thus, such a contention would only serve to foster further doubt upon the sufficiency of God’s Word. Since such a route ends only in skepticism, one must conclude that it is doomed to failure.




Conclusion



As we have seen, the structure and message of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society undermines the sufficiency of God's Word. As such, it can be anything but an organization guided by His hand.


These are excellent points which you have made. Also, if God did have an "organization" and was leading it by His Holy Spirit (or by some force called "holy spirit" as JWs teach), we would expect to see the fruit of that leading - not all the unfulfilled prophetic teachings of the Watchtower, i.e., Armageddon in 1975; the princes of the O.T. returning in 1925, to name a few. Their founder, Russell, made many false predictions - what evidence did Russell ever provide that he was establishing Jehovah's organization on earth? Why, Russell was divorced by his own wife for flirtatious activities with other women - and Russell himself claimed that he viewed women as "butterflies," and that if they should light on him - well, so be it. Furthermore, the Watchtower conned its readers out of thousands of dollars in its "miracle wheat" ads - something you wouldn't expect to find "Jehovah's organization" doing. There is no evidence that the Watchtower Society is better than any other earthly corporation or organization - and in many ways, it's a lot worse!

[technomage]

:offtopic:

As a complete side-point, I have to wonder--are there even enough JWs here to shake a stick at?

[Bill the Cat]

:offtopic:

As a complete side-point, I have to wonder--are there even enough JWs here to shake a stick at?
there have been about 3-5 regulars and a few hit-and-miss posters

:trex:

[technomage]

there have been about 3-5 regulars and a few hit-and-miss posters

:trex:
Cool. Sorry for the interruption, folks--carry on.

[Krusader]

there have been about 3-5 regulars and a few hit-and-miss posters

:trex:

Also, Bill, it's interesting to note that Jehovah's Witnesses have been warned in their Halls not to interact on the internet with Christians. However, when you go over to the "Who's On Line" area, you'll note that many of the "Guests" are perusing the Jehovah's Witnesses site. Interesting!

[David_A_Reed]

Also, Bill, it's interesting to note that Jehovah's Witnesses have been warned in their Halls not to interact on the internet with Christians. However, when you go over to the "Who's On Line" area, you'll note that many of the "Guests" are perusing the Jehovah's Witnesses site. Interesting!

I was a JW for thirteen years, an elder for eight years, and my wife was raised in the sect. It was Bible reading that got us to start questioning the Watchtower organization back in the late 1970s and leave it in 1982. Reading Jesus' words proved to have a powerful impact on us, and we realized our leaders at Kingdom Hall were not following what Jesus said. At first we thought there were some local elders that had gone astray; then we thought it was a few in the upper hierarchy. Finally, we began to get the picture that the organization never did represent biblical Christianity.

It took us about three years to rethink matters and to make the transition from starting to question, to making our escape. One of the first things we did was to look for information in the public library. That was in the days before the Internet. Now, JWs use search engines, and find sites like this one.

[Dee Dee Warren]

David I believe that I have one of your books. I used to be very much into interacting with JWs and Christadelphians which led me to author Christ - the Alpha and the Omega: Christology from A to Z (http://www.apocalipsis.org/alphaomega.htm)

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Whoa. We've got David Reed here now. How awesome is that. I've got a copy of "Jehovah's Witnesses Answered: Verse by Verse." Excellent read!

[David_A_Reed]

David I believe that I have one of your books. I used to be very much into interacting with JWs and Christadelphians which led me to author Christ - the Alpha and the Omega: Christology from A to Z (http://www.apocalipsis.org/alphaomega.htm)

That's an excellent response to unitarian thinking (including JW thinking) on "the Alpha and the Omega" in Revelation! Thanks for sharing the link.

[David_A_Reed]

Whoa. We've got David Reed here now. How awesome is that. I've got a copy of "Jehovah's Witnesses Answered: Verse by Verse." Excellent read!

Thank you. It's awesome that TW is here. I only wish I had found you sooner!

[Dee Dee Warren]

That's an excellent response to unitarian thinking (including JW thinking) on "the Alpha and the Omega" in Revelation! Thanks for sharing the link.

Thank you, I spent a great deal of time, thought, and prayer on it, and know it has born some fruit.

One summer my husband and I went door to door evangelizing, and it was funny when we knocked on the doors of our JW neighbors - they were like, hey you not supposed to be doing that. And, somewhat surprisingly, only one JW let us in. I spoke of the Alpha and Omega issue, and she was stumped. She kept throwing in 1918 or whatever the important dates are, and just no answer for what I said. We were never invited back. She left a copy of their classic Trinity booklet at our door and I think she was surprised when I left a note at her door thanking her profusely because I kept seeing that pamphlet come in books and articles I read, and I never was able to get a copy of it. With that note I left her an article out of the CRJ which talked about how JWs changed their policy of worshipping Jesus to not worshipping him and a pamphet by James White called "Hiding the Name of Jehovah" showing fragmentsof the NT in Hebrew where Jesus is called Jehovah.

BTW David, we run featured articles here, if there is anything you have, we would love to feature it.

[Armor of God]

Mr. Reed. I was wondering if you could compare/contrast your book with Ron Rhode's Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I have heard great things about both books, as I've heard they're somewhat smiliar in how they address the JW's "proof" scriptures point by point. Does your book cover some issues that Mr. Rhodes leaves out? Or vice versa?

A former insider's opinion would be the ultimate insight into how they think and what to expect.

I typically have a few JW's visit me every year, but the number has been dwindling. In fact, I haven't had any stop by this year. Do they sort of cross you off thier visit list if it's become apparent that a person is going to contend thier teaching?

[David_A_Reed]

Dee Dee, sorry I didn't see your reply until just now when I got one of the weekly e-mails for people following threads. I guess I failed to check the link when I got the earlier e-mail that listed this post -- still learning my way around here by trial-and-error, like posting inappropriately in your gym debate with Dr. B, not graspin the rules when I did so. Sorry about that, too!


Thank you, I spent a great deal of time, thought, and prayer on it, and know it has born some fruit.

One summer my husband and I went door to door evangelizing, and it was funny when we knocked on the doors of our JW neighbors - they were like, hey you not supposed to be doing that. And, somewhat surprisingly, only one JW let us in. I spoke of the Alpha and Omega issue, and she was stumped. She kept throwing in 1918 or whatever the important dates are, and just no answer for what I said. We were never invited back. She left a copy of their classic Trinity booklet at our door and I think she was surprised when I left a note at her door thanking her profusely because I kept seeing that pamphlet come in books and articles I read, and I never was able to get a copy of it. With that note I left her an article out of the CRJ which talked about how JWs changed their policy of worshipping Jesus to not worshipping him and a pamphet by James White called "Hiding the Name of Jehovah" showing fragmentsof the NT in Hebrew where Jesus is called Jehovah.

Very effective approach! I've been on the other side of that Alpha and Omega issue -- back when I was a JW elder -- and I've seen JWs severely shaken by it. They are trained not to admit to the Christian at the door that they have been made to doubt their organization, but that Alpha and Omega evidence in Revelation sends them running to their elders for help, or leaves them questioning.


BTW David, we run featured articles here, if there is anything you have, we would love to feature it.

Well, thank you, Dee Deed! I'll have to see what I can come up with.

[David_A_Reed]

Mr. Reed. I was wondering if you could compare/contrast your book with Ron Rhode's Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I have heard great things about both books, as I've heard they're somewhat smiliar in how they address the JW's "proof" scriptures point by point. Does your book cover some issues that Mr. Rhodes leaves out? Or vice versa?

A former insider's opinion would be the ultimate insight into how they think and what to expect.

Well, Armor, the insider's perspective is probably the biggest difference. I'm afraid it's been some years since I picked up Ron Rhode's book to compare it with mine, and I can't make such a comparison right now off the top of my head, except to say the above.

But I will say that Ron Rhodes does excellent work, and I recommend his books.


I typically have a few JW's visit me every year, but the number has been dwindling. In fact, I haven't had any stop by this year. Do they sort of cross you off thier visit list if it's become apparent that a person is going to contend thier teaching?

Yes, JWs go door-to-door using little "territory maps" that consist of a local street map cut into pieces, each approx. 3" x 5" piece pasted on poster board and inserted into a custom envelope where they keep track of the dates it is checked out for coverage. When they run into a "problem" householder who refutes them too effectively, they sometimes insert a note into the envelope along with the map, warning others not to call at that address. (Although sometimes they call anyway, hoping to meet a different member of the household.)

[DannyHaszard]

Good post,to keep it simple the central core dogma of Jehovah's Witnesses,the reason they came into existence 110 years ago was to proclaim Jesus second coming in the year 1914.

When their 'prophecy' {derived from the William Miller movement of 1844} failed,they went on to say that Jesus came "invisibly".Yes,it's the 'emperor's new clothes' all over again.

The Watchtower is a lie!-Danny Haszard www.dannyhaszard.com

[Krusader]

Good post,to keep it simple the central core dogma of Jehovah's Witnesses,the reason they came into existence 110 years ago was to proclaim Jesus second coming in the year 1914.

When their 'prophecy' {derived from the William Miller movement of 1844} failed,they went on to say that Jesus came "invisibly".Yes,it's the 'emperor's new clothes' all over again.

The Watchtower is a lie!-Danny Haszard www.dannyhaszard.com (http://www.dannyhaszard.com)

I think they kinda play down the invisible second coming of 1914 now. I've even seen JWs posting here and saying that that wasn't the Second Coming. I don't know whether they are telling lies or simply totally confused.

[Cal_Minian]

Introduction

All too often in discussions with the Witnesses, Christians (myself included) tend to begin with points relating to the Trinity, the nature of saving faith, or the character of Christ’s Resurrection. While trivial matters should be avoided (and thus it is good to focus on essential issues such as these), it must also be remembered that crooked lenses yield crooked images. Thus, as long as Witnesses are operating under the assumption that the Watchtower is the sole channel through which God communicates his truth today, debates of a scriptural nature are all but futile. Because of this, we must first undertake the task of demonstrating that the Watchtower is not the “faithful and wise servant” that it is claimed to be.

First however, it must be acknowledged that discovering the truth about the Watchtower in no way impugns the truth of the Bible. Witnesses themselves will admit that they follow the Watchtower because of the Bible, not the Bible because of the Watchtower. This is an important point to stress in the event that the Watchtower is found to be an organization lacking divine appointment. In such a case, the faithful Witness ought to disassociate themselves from it and seek more earnestly to know the truths revealed in Scripture, rather than tossing the baby out with the proverbial bath water.


Thus Saith Jehovah...

Central to the claim of the Watchtower’s authority is the belief that God’s Word (the Bible) is sufficient for all we are to believe as Christians. If this were to be denied, the entire foundation of Watchtower theology would be toppled; for if God is without a sufficient Word, then a fallible organization could have no authority upon which to base its claims. Obviously then, without the authority of God such a group could not constitute the organization of God.

Also axiomatic to the minds of most Witnesses is the fact that those holding dear to the Bible and to God should of necessity find their way into his dispenser of truth. If this were not the case, one would certainly have grounds upon which to question the group’s authenticity, for it is their claim that no one else on earth possesses the ’’keys’’ necessary to unlock the mysteries of the Scriptures.

Thus, the veracity of the Watchtower hinges on both the sufficiency of Scripture and the demand it makes on all those considering themselves obedient to the Gospel to find solace under the umbrella of its protection. From this we can deduce that if the Bible gives insufficient testimony to the Watchtower (thus rendering the Word of God insufficient), it (the WT) is therefore exposed as a merely human institution passing itself off as divine. Stated more formally, the argument takes this form:

(1) If the Watchtower is God’s Organization, this fact would be adequately conveyed in His Word.

(2) This fact not adequately conveyed in His Word.
_________________________________________
Therefore the Watchtower is not God’s Organization


A Single Alternative

The first premise must be presupposed in order to even assert that God has an organization. What of the second? It is readily admitted that the organization known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society did not exist until the 19th Century. The best the faithful Witness can do is contend that an accurate identification of the group may be made due to certain qualities it alone possesses. Let us pause to consider the viability of this position.

The problem the Witnesses must face is the fact that such a position is never advocated by Scripture itself. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that an earthly organization guided by God would be identifiable through a single doctrine or practice. Thus, such a contention would only serve to foster further doubt upon the sufficiency of God’s Word. Since such a route ends only in skepticism, one must conclude that it is doomed to failure.


Conclusion

As we have seen, the structure and message of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society undermines the sufficiency of God's Word. As such, it can be anything but an organization guided by His hand.


If you hold yourself to the same standards for your foundational teaching of the Trinity you will reject the Trinity before you reject the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses as the group Jehovah is using to preach the gospel. Note, you said:





(1) If the Watchtower is God’s Organization, this fact would be adequately conveyed in His Word.

(2) This fact not adequately conveyed in His Word.
_________________________________________
Therefore the Watchtower is not God’s Organization




1) If God is three persons, this fact would be adequately conveyed in His Word.
2) This fact not adequately conveyed in His Word.
_________________________________________
Therefore the God is not three persons.


Now lets compare the two. Does God have an organization to teach his sheep? Matthew 24:44-45 says that the Faithful and Discreet Slave would provide food at the proper time. The fact that this Slave exists cannot be denied. Who that Slave is, is a matter of interpretation, not the fact of whether it exists.

Is there such a thing as a multi-personal being and is God one? Note this is not an argument that since we cannot understand it or it is not logical that it cannot be true. It is an argument that no bible writer teaches that there is a being who is multi-personal, in context, in a passage.

Therefore proponents of the Trinity cannot even get to the next step which is to identify a multi-personal being as God. We know the F&DS exists. Thefore we can study Scripture for the identity of the Slave because we did not have to manufacture the slave from our own imagination.

The Trinity is imaginative, I will grant that. But just because something is possible does not make it probable or true.

[Krusader]

Cal said:

"If you hold yourself to the same standards for your foundational teaching of the Trinity you will reject the Trinity before you reject the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses as the group Jehovah is using to preach the gospel. "

Oh yes, God surely would always use false prophets to preach His Gospel, right? Wrong! The Watchtower Society is clearly a false prophet - just ask the people who sold their goods and put off marriage waiting for 1975 to roll around.

See: http://www.carm.org/jw/false_prophecies.htm

and: http://dianedew.com/jwfalsep.htm

We all know that the Bible condemns false prophets. The Watchtower's "anointed" brethren are lucky they aren't living in Old Testament times!

[Cal_Minian]

Cal said:

"If you hold yourself to the same standards for your foundational teaching of the Trinity you will reject the Trinity before you reject the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses as the group Jehovah is using to preach the gospel. "

Oh yes, God surely would always use false prophets to preach His Gospel, right? Wrong! The Watchtower Society is clearly a false prophet - just ask the people who sold their goods and put off marriage waiting for 1975 to roll around.

See: http://www.carm.org/jw/false_prophecies.htm

and: http://dianedew.com/jwfalsep.htm

We all know that the Bible condemns false prophets. The Watchtower's "anointed" brethren are lucky they aren't living in Old Testament times!

I can see that you are buying into falsehoods that are being spread about JWs on the internet.

First of all, JWs acknowledge that there were prophets in the OT and in the 1st century NT. However we teach that the gifts of prophecy have ceased. We do teach that someone can be a "prophet" if they preach the prophecies already in the bible.

Secondly, the accusations against us in the regard simply ignore what we teach on the subject. For example the 1975 date you brought up. Note what was published in 1966.



"Brother Franz [at the Baltimore assembly in 1966] went on to say: You have noticed the chart [on pages 31-35 in the book Life Everlasting--in Freedom of the Sons of God]. It shows that 6000 years of human experience will end in 1975, in about nine years from now. What does that mean? Does it mean that God's reset day began 4026 B.C.E.? It could have. The Life Everlasting book does not say it did not. The book merely presents the chronology. You can accept it or reject it... What about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?" asked Brother Franz. "Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could!. All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could! It could!. Does it mean that the attack of God of Magog is going to be made on Jehovah witnesses to wipe them out, then God himself will be put out of actions? It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don't any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975." "Rejoicing over 'God's Sons of Liberty' Spiritual Feast," -- The Watchtower, 15 October 1966, Page 631.


We have always taught this:



1895
The Watchtower in it's mission statement: "This journal ... is not dogmatic, but confident; for we know whereof we affirm, treading with implicit faith upon the sure promises of God. It is held as a trust, to be used only in his service; hence our decisions relative to what may and what may not appear in its columns must be according to our judgment of his good pleasure, the teaching of his Word, for the upbuilding of his people in grace and knowledge. And we not only invite but urge our readers to prove all its utterances by the infallible Word to which reference is constantly made to facilitate such testing."
1904
"It is not our intention to enter upon the role of prophet to any degree, but merely to give below what seems to us rather likely to be the trend of events--giving also the reasons for our expectations." March 1,1904 Watchtower
1909
"Someone may ask, Do you, then, claim infallibility and that every sentence appearing in The Watch Tower publications is stated with absolute correctness? Assuredly we make no such claim and have never made such a claim. What motive can our opponents have in so charging against us? Are they not seeking to set up a falsehood to give themselves excuse for making attacks and to endeavor to pervert the judgments of others?" Zion's Watchtower and Herald of Christ's Presence, 15 September 1909.


On the other hand, in Christendom many still teach that the gifts are active. Chuck Smith predicted the time of the rapture. Note:



On the jacket of his book, "End Times" Smith is called a "well-known Bible Scholar and prophecy teacher ". "As we look at the world scene today, it would appear that the coming of the Lord is very, very, close. Yet, we do not know when it will be. It could be that the Lord will wait for a time longer. If I understand Scriptures correctly, Jesus taught us that the generation which sees the 'budding of the fig tree', the birth of the nation Israel, will be the generation that sees the Lord's return. I believe that the generation of 1948 is the last generation. Since a generation of judgment is forty years and the Tribulation period lasts seven years, I believe the Lord could come any time before the Tribulation starts, which would mean anytime before 1981.(1948+40-7=1981). However, it is possible that Jesus is dating the beginning of the generation from 1967, when Jerusalem was again under Israeli control for the first time since 587 B.C. We don't know for sure which year marks the beginning of the last generation."

Chuck Smith, Future Survival (Costa Mesa, Ca: The Word For Today, 1978)
page 17, "We're the generation that saw the fig tree bud forth, as Israel became a nation again in 1948. As a rule, a generation in the Bible lasts 40 years. The children of Israel journeyed in the wilderness for 40 years until that generation died. Forty years after 1948 would bring us to 1988."
Ibid, page 20, "From my understanding of biblical prophecies, I'm convinced that the Lord is coming for His Church before the end of 1981. I could be wrong but it's a deep conviction in my heart, and all my plans are predicated upon that belief.

Ibid, page 21, The Lord said that towards the end of the Tribulation period the sun would scorch men who dwell upon the fact of the earth (Rev. 16). The year 1986 would fit just about right.


Finally I would like to note that your quotes are from Matt Slick of CARM. Matt was baptized by Chuck Smith. Since by your standards Chuck Smith is a false prophet, why do you quote Matt?

[Krusader]

I can see that you are buying into falsehoods that are being spread about JWs on the internet.

First of all, JWs acknowledge that there were prophets in the OT and in the 1st century NT. However we teach that the gifts of prophecy have ceased. We do teach that someone can be a "prophet" if they preach the prophecies already in the bible.

Secondly, the accusations against us in the regard simply ignore what we teach on the subject. For example the 1975 date you brought up. Note what was published in 1966.



We have always taught this:



On the other hand, in Christendom many still teach that the gifts are active. Chuck Smith predicted the time of the rapture. Note:



Finally I would like to note that your quotes are from Matt Slick of CARM. Matt was baptized by Chuck Smith. Since by your standards Chuck Smith is a false prophet, why do you quote Matt?

Chuck Smith is not viewed by Christians as the anointed mouthpiece of God. Don't try pointing fingers - you guys are the ones claiming to be God's one, true organization on earth through which Jehovah works. Get real, have you ever read "Life Everlasting in the Freedom of the Sons of God," which you may not find down at the Hall's library since it includes the famous false peophecy about 1975? How long have you been in the Society? If any other "organization" was as steeped in false prophetic statements as the Watchtower (how about the returning princes of the Old Testament scheduled for 1925 and Beth Sarim), you would have left long ago. Look up and study cognitive dissonance.

[Cal_Minian]

Chuck Smith is not viewed by Christians as the anointed mouthpiece of God. Don't try pointing fingers - you guys are the ones claiming to be God's one, true organization on earth through which Jehovah works. Get real, have you ever read "Life Everlasting in the Freedom of the Sons of God," which you may not find down at the Hall's library since it includes the famous false peophecy about 1975? How long have you been in the Society? If any other "organization" was as steeped in false prophetic statements as the Watchtower (how about the returning princes of the Old Testament scheduled for 1925 and Beth Sarim), you would have left long ago. Look up and study cognitive dissonance.


A link to CARM was cited as proof we are false prophets. Is CARM your mouthpeace or do you have the ability to speak for yourself? Matt Slick is associated with Chuck Smith, having been baptized by him. Why do you quote false prophets?

JWs teach that the gifts of prophecy have ceased. Let me give you an illustration.

You go to a steak restaurant with some friends and order a big New York Steak. Then you excuse yourself to go to the restroom. When you come back one of your friends ate your steak. Which one? One of your friends is vegitarian and the other is not.

Do you accuse the vegitarian?

JWs teach that the gifts of prophecy have ceased, period.

Everything we have written deals with pre-existing prophecies and used chronology, not predication.

It's that simple.

[Krusader]

A link to CARM was cited as proof we are false prophets. Is CARM your mouthpeace or do you have the ability to speak for yourself? Matt Slick is associated with Chuck Smith, having been baptized by him. Why do you quote false prophets?

JWs teach that the gifts of prophecy have ceased. Let me give you an illustration.

You go to a steak restaurant with some friends and order a big New York Steak. Then you excuse yourself to go to the restroom. When you come back one of your friends ate your steak. Which one? One of your friends is vegitarian and the other is not.

Do you accuse the vegitarian?

JWs teach that the gifts of prophecy have ceased, period.

Everything we have written deals with pre-existing prophecies and used chronology, not predication.

It's that simple.

If prophetic gifts have ceased, then why believe anything the false prophets in Brooklyn say anyway. That makes them just as clueless as anybody else. What evidence do you have that your Society isn't a false prophet? Especially, when you consider this statement they made in the Watchtower:

Watchtower 4/1/72, pages 197-198
They shall know that a Prophet was among them.


"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses....Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it." (Watchtower 4/1/72, pages 197)

So, don't try to mislead people here - prove that the Society is really that "group of footstep followers" who speak for Jehovah God as a prophet. What have they ever prophesied correctly?

[Cal_Minian]

If prophetic gifts have ceased, then why believe anything the false prophets in Brooklyn say anyway. That makes them just as clueless as anybody else. What evidence do you have that your Society isn't a false prophet? Especially, when you consider this statement they made in the Watchtower:

Watchtower 4/1/72, pages 197-198
They shall know that a Prophet was among them.


"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses....Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it." (Watchtower 4/1/72, pages 197)

So, don't try to mislead people here - prove that the Society is really that "group of footstep followers" who speak for Jehovah God as a prophet. What have they ever prophesied correctly?

As I explained, JWs teach that the gifts of prophecy have ceased. When we read the prophecies in the bible to others we are "prophecying" but we are not predicting the future.

JWs teach the gifts of prophecy as in fortelling the future have already ceased. We don't claim to do this and we don't believe anyone else does either.

[Krusader]

As I explained, JWs teach that the gifts of prophecy have ceased. When we read the prophecies in the bible to others we are "prophecying" but we are not predicting the future.

JWs teach the gifts of prophecy as in fortelling the future have already ceased. We don't claim to do this and we don't believe anyone else does either.

Just how blind can one person be? Don't you see that your own society claimed in the Watchtower that the JW "footstep followers" were God's collective prophet?

Here, Cal, read the whole article for yourself. What you are saying contradicts the anointed brethren:

http://www.carm.org/jw/docs/watch_4_1_72_p197-198.htm

[Cal_Minian]

Just how blind can one person be? Don't you see that your own society claimed in the Watchtower that the JW "footstep followers" were God's collective prophet?

Here, Cal, read the whole article for yourself. What you are saying contradicts the anointed brethren:

http://www.carm.org/jw/docs/watch_4_1_72_p197-198.htm


What is the difference between a prophet and a "prophet"?
What is a prophet?
Insight on the Scriptures, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1988, it-2 page 694 under Prophet

The Greek pro-phe'tes literally means "a speaker out [Gr., pro, "before" or "in front of," and phe-mi', "say"]" and thus describes a proclaimer, one who makes known messages attributed to a divine source. (Compare Tit 1:12.) Though this includes the thought of a predictor of the future, the fundamental meaning of the word is not that of prediction. (Compare Jg. 6:7-10.)

Do Jehovah's Witnesses teach prophesying is still occurring today?
The book "Prophecy" (Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1929), page 61-62 states

"Many students have made the grievous mistake of thinking that God has inspired men to interpret prophecy. The holy prophets of the Old Testament were inspired by Jehovah to write as his power moved upon them. The writers of the New Testament were clothed with certain power and authority to write as the Lord directed them. However, since the days of the apostles no man on earth has been inspired to write prophecy, nor has any man been inspired to interpret prophecy."

What is a "prophet"?
That the term "prophet" in the series of articles which are quoted below are intended in a quasi sense can be seen by the examples of what this "prophet" does in the following quotations from the Watchtower article entitled "They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them", Watchtower 1972 4/1 197-8 where it states:

IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET"
These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? The clergy of the so-called "Christian" nations hold themselves before the people as being the ones commissioned to speak for God. But, as pointed out in the previous issue of this magazine, they have failed God and failed as proclaimers of his kingdom by approving a man-made political organization, the League of Nations (now the United Nations), as "the political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth."

However, Jehovah did not let the people of Christendom, as led by the clergy, go without being warned that the League was a counterfeit substitute for the real kingdom of God. He had a "prophet" to warn them. This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief.

Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?

During the World War I period this group, the International Bible Students, was very active in preaching the good news of God's kingdom, as their Leader Jesus Christ had set this work before them in his prophecy at Matthew 24:14. They took literally Jesus' words to the Roman governor Pontius Pilate: "My kingdom is no part of this world." (John 18:36) They also took to heart Jesus' words to his followers: "You are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world." They expected to suffer for living according to that rule, just as Jesus went on to say, "on this account the world hates you." (John 15:19) Hatred toward them grew into violence during World War I.

These Bible Students had long been concerned with Ezekiel and his prophecy. In 1917 they published a book entitled "The Finished Mystery," explaining the book of Ezekiel as well as that of Revelation. This book criticized the clergy as false to the Word of Jehovah. Within nine months a ban was put on its circulation in the United States and Canada. Then eight members of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, including its president and secretary-treasurer, were sentenced to prison in the Federal penitentiary, Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A.

Though the work of these Christians was crippled for a while, after only nine months the eight men were freed from prison, in March 1919. They accepted this as an answer from God to their prayers. Their work was revived, much to the consternation of the clergy, who had been behind the banning.

Accordingly, their magazine The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence , in its issues of August 1 and 15, 1919, encouraged vigorous resumption of the work of preaching the good news free from the fear of men. Under the subject "Blessed Are the Fearless," the following statements were made:


"There is a fear which is very proper, and which everyone must have who is pleasing to God, and this is known as 'Godly fear'. It means a holy reverence for Jehovah and a fear lest we should displease him and come short of the blessings he has promised us. . . . The Scriptures abound with testimony that those whom God approves do not fear man nor any other creature, but have a holy, reverential fear of Jehovah. In times of old Jehovah justified some men to friendship with him, and the record of his dealing with them was written for the benefit of the church."

Ezekiel was one of these men so used by God, and not only his prophecies, but also Ezekiel himself and his acts were pictorial of things to come.

Page 198-199 continues,

The League of Nations came into being in 1919 and began really to function when it was ratified by the signatory powers at Paris on January 10, 1920. But Jehovah's servants continued to proclaim the Messianic kingdom of God. When the ban on The Finished Mystery was lifted, they resumed its circulation and, with it as a textbook, they continued to study the book of Ezekiel. As time went on and further developments fulfilled the prophecy of Ezekiel, a three-volume set of books titled "Vindication" provided an up-to-date understanding, showing more fully the application of the prophecy.

Thus this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ, doing a work in Christendom paralleling Ezekiel's work among the Jews, were manifestly the modern-day Ezekiel, the "prophet" commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God's Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom. It is significant that, in 1931, after twelve years of faithful service despite the opposition of Christendom's clergy, these followers of Christ embraced the name "Jehovah's witnesses" at the same convention at which the book Vindication was released.-Isa. 43:10-12, American Standard Version.

Summary of "prophet" as used in the Watchtower of April 1972
The quotations around the word "prophet" distinguish it from inspired "prophets" and are intended in a quasi sense as can be seen for the examples given following this expression in this article:

What did the "prophet" do as a "prophet"?
The "prophet" actively preached the good news of God's kingdom.

Rather than uttering a new prophecy, the "prophet" published a book, "The Finished Mystery" explaining the book of Ezekiel

This "prophet" continued to study the book of Ezekiel and then published "Vindication" which gave an up-to-date understanding showing more fully the application of the prophecy. See this statement from the book "Vindication".


The work done paralleling Ezekiel is that of preaching the good news of the kingdom and warning Christendom.

[Krusader]

Cal, what does the JW article ask:

"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?"

[Cal_Minian]

Cal, what does the JW article ask:

"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?"


When JWs read the book of Revelation and warn them about Armageddon they are not predicting the future. That was done by John. They are warning people about John's prophecy. The title "prophet" applies to this work as well.

You seem light a bright person. I don't understand why you don't understand this concept.

JWs teach noone can predict the future any longer.

[Krusader]

When JWs read the book of Revelation and warn them about Armageddon they are not predicting the future. That was done by John. They are warning people about John's prophecy. The title "prophet" applies to this work as well.

You seem light a bright person. I don't understand why you don't understand this concept.

JWs teach noone can predict the future any longer.

So, what you are saying is that all the false prophetic statements made by the Watchtower weren't really false prophecies, but just false expositions of prophetic statements, right? For instance, when Rutherford built Beth Sarim out in California for the princes of the Old Testament who were going to be resurrected in 1925, he just made a mistaken exposition of the Bible, right?

Why not read this and let me know what you think:

http://www.witnessinc.com/beth%20sarim.html

See any false prophetic statements there? Maybe a monument to false prophecy.

I don't really know if it's helpful or not to debate JWs since the society limits their access to anything other than approved material, calls anything objective "apostate," and has even told them to not use the internet to debate the Society's doctrines. Some might call this mind control! What are you doing here?

[Cal_Minian]

So, what you are saying is that all the false prophetic statements made by the Watchtower weren't really false prophecies, but just false expositions of prophetic statements, right? For instance, when Rutherford built Beth Sarim out in California for the princes of the Old Testament who were going to be resurrected in 1925, he just made a mistaken exposition of the Bible, right?

Why not read this and let me know what you think:

http://www.witnessinc.com/beth%20sarim.html

See any false prophetic statements there? Maybe a monument to false prophecy.

I don't really know if it's helpful or not to debate JWs since the society limits their access to anything other than approved material, calls anything objective "apostate," and has even told them to not use the internet to debate the Society's doctrines. Some might call this mind control! What are you doing here?

JWs do not teach that anyone predicts the future except by reading the OT and NT prophecies.

Chronology is the study of the end times. It is not prophecy.

A JW who does not predict the future himself is therefore a "prophet" in a limited sense.... only in the sense of warning others about the OT and NT prophecies.

That is what we claim, what we have written and what we teach.

[Krusader]

JWs do not teach that anyone predicts the future except by reading the OT and NT prophecies.

Chronology is the study of the end times. It is not prophecy.

A JW who does not predict the future himself is therefore a "prophet" in a limited sense.... only in the sense of warning others about the OT and NT prophecies.

That is what we claim, what we have written and what we teach.

That may be what your organization (gosh, that word is so un-biblical) claims now since it's been caught prophesying falsely so often, but how does that add up with this:

In the book "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" Judge Rutherford wrote, . . . "the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925. At that time the earthly phase of the kingdom shall be recognized. The Apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord and before beginning of the selection of the church. . . . They are to be resurrected as perfect men and constitute the princes or rulers in the earth, according to his promise. . . .Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews chapter eleven, to the condition of human perfection."

Gee, seems like "confidently expect means confidently expect!!!!!!!!

[Cal_Minian]

That may be what your organization (gosh, that word is so un-biblical) claims now since it's been caught prophesying falsely so often, but how does that add up with this:

In the book "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" Judge Rutherford wrote, . . . "the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925. At that time the earthly phase of the kingdom shall be recognized. The Apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord and before beginning of the selection of the church. . . . They are to be resurrected as perfect men and constitute the princes or rulers in the earth, according to his promise. . . .Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews chapter eleven, to the condition of human perfection."

Gee, seems like "confidently expect means confidently expect!!!!!!!!

Like all JWs Rutherford taught chronology. He did not predict the future himself.

These were written by Rutherford:



1929
"Many students have made the grievous mistake of thinking that God has inspired men to interpret prophecy. The holy prophets of the Old Testament were inspired by Jehovah to write as his power moved upon them. The writers of the New Testament were clothed with certain power and authority to write as the Lord directed them. However, since the days of the apostles no man on earth has been inspired to write prophecy, nor has any man been inspired to interpret prophecy." "Prophecy" (Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1929), page 61-62

1931
"IT is not the prerogative of the Watchtower, nor of any forming a part of the 'servant' class, to announce its judgment; but is is their duty to call attention to God's judgments as they are written, and this must be done as a warning." "Vindication", 3 Vols (Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1931-1932)

[Krusader]

Like all JWs Rutherford taught chronology. He did not predict the future himself.

These were written by Rutherford:

So why build Beth Sarim? If was only speculation, wasn't that a misuse of funds?

And, he really erred, didn't he, by putting the deed in the names of those OT persons?

[Cal_Minian]

So why build Beth Sarim? If was only speculation, wasn't that a misuse of funds?

And, he really erred, didn't he, by putting the deed in the names of those OT persons?

I have no idea. I have been told that Beth Sarim was something Rutherford did on his own.

[Krusader]

I have no idea. I have been told that Beth Sarim was something Rutherford did on his own.

You have been misled. Check out the bill of sale and deed.

[Cal_Minian]

You have been misled. Check out the bill of sale and deed.

Not that it matters respecting prophecy but where is the bill of sale and deed?

[Krusader]

Not that it matters respecting prophecy but where is the bill of sale and deed?

See the Watchtower publication, the Golden Age:

http://www.bibletopics.com/BIBLESTUDY/89g.htm

and this:

http://www.docbob.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=41

and this on Beth Shan, another mansion held for the coming OT princes:

http://www.premier1.net/~raines/bethshan.html

By the way, I believe that you signature is misleading as it makes it sound like you're research project was financed by the LCMS. You really need to be less deceptive in your wording.

[Cal_Minian]

See the Watchtower publication, the Golden Age:

http://www.bibletopics.com/BIBLESTUDY/89g.htm

and this:

http://www.docbob.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=41

and this on Beth Shan, another mansion held for the coming OT princes:

http://www.premier1.net/~raines/bethshan.html

By the way, I believe that you signature is misleading as it makes it sound like you're research project was financed by the LCMS. You really need to be less deceptive in your wording.

If I have time I will look at them. Thanks for the links. However that was a long time ago.

Did you know that Chuck Smith teaches in his commentary of the book of Revelation that Christians are going to live on a cube about the size of the moon which will orbit the earth. Since the outer surface of the cube cannot hold all Christians he posits that they will live in cubicles inside of the cube. If I were you I would reserve a cube on an outer corner edge if you are claustrophobic at all.

[Krusader]

If I have time I will look at them. Thanks for the links. However that was a long time ago.

Did you know that Chuck Smith teaches in his commentary of the book of Revelation that Christians are going to live on a cube about the size of the moon which will orbit the earth. Since the outer surface of the cube cannot hold all Christians he posits that they will live in cubicles inside of the cube. If I were you I would reserve a cube on an outer corner edge if you are claustrophobic at all.

Chuck Smith is speaking of the cubic demensions of the New Jerusalem, and you are totally misrepresenting his statement. You really are slandering the man, here. If you have an issue with him, why not contact him directly. I used to attend a Calvary Chapel, Cal, and it would do you good to maybe visit one as well. Obviously, you are fascinated by what Smith has to say, aren't you? You've mentioned him to me twice already. Actually, one JW has been visiting the local Calvary Chapel here, I uderstand, and I thank the Lord for that. It takes a lot of guts for a JW to face potential shunning because he/she is searching for the truth.

In any case, the age of a false prophecy does not change the fact that it is a false prophecy. The mercurial nature of WT doctrines is such that anybody with the least bit of insight can plainly see that "new light" only means covering up false "old light."

[Cal_Minian]

Chuck Smith is speaking of the cubic demensions of the New Jerusalem, and you are totally misrepresenting his statement. You really are slandering the man, here. If you have an issue with him, why not contact him directly. I used to attend a Calvary Chapel, Cal, and it would do you good to maybe visit one as well. Obviously, you are fascinated by what Smith has to say, aren't you? You've mentioned him to me twice already. Actually, one JW has been visiting the local Calvary Chapel here, I uderstand, and I thank the Lord for that. It takes a lot of guts for a JW to face potential shunning because he/she is searching for the truth.

In any case, the age of a false prophecy does not change the fact that it is a false prophecy. The mercurial nature of WT doctrines is such that anybody with the least bit of insight can plainly see that "new light" only means covering up false "old light."

Dear Crusader,
I have his book on Revelation and I assure you I am not misrepresenting it.

Are you a Star Trek fan? Sounds absolutely BORGIAN to me!

BTW I felt you had been associated with CC. I can spot them by their illogic. :lol:

[Krusader]

Dear Crusader,
I have his book on Revelation and I assure you I am not misrepresenting it.

Are you a Star Trek fan? Sounds absolutely BORGIAN to me!

BTW I felt you had been associated with CC. I can spot them by their illogic. :lol:

I think you are attracted to Calvary Chapels - but you are wrong about one thing, I have never been a member. I did, however, help a local friend begin a Chapel. It began in their basement, and now it is the largest church in our county, with two services. One of the amazing things about Calvary Chapels is their expository preaching. They go verse by verse and expound on each verse's meaning. If you call that "illogic," I'm sorry. I call it thorough. Again, why not attend a service or two and then you can make a better estimate of what's being taught.

As for me, I'm an Independent Baptist - probably the most logical of denominations.

By the way, speaking of books about Revelation, are you familiar with the WT book of that name in which it endorses spiritualism?

[Cal_Minian]

So why build Beth Sarim? If was only speculation, wasn't that a misuse of funds?

And, he really erred, didn't he, by putting the deed in the names of those OT persons?

I would say that building Beth Sarim and selling it for more than the original purchase price was a wise investment and financed the productions of bibles and other literature!

[Cal_Minian]

I think you are attracted to Calvary Chapels - but you are wrong about one thing, I have never been a member. I did, however, help a local friend begin a Chapel. It began in their basement, and now it is the largest church in our county, with two services. One of the amazing things about Calvary Chapels is their expository preaching. They go verse by verse and expound on each verse's meaning. If you call that "illogic," I'm sorry. I call it thorough. Again, why not attend a service or two and then you can make a better estimate of what's being taught.

As for me, I'm an Independent Baptist - probably the most logical of denominations.

By the way, speaking of books about Revelation, are you familiar with the WT book of that name in which it endorses spiritualism?

When you helped start a CC did you teach the new ones about how many dates that Chuck Smith predicted the rapture would come?

[Krusader]

When you helped start a CC did you teach the new ones about how many dates that Chuck Smith predicted the rapture would come?

Actually, I never remember Chuck Smith ever being quoted as an authority at all in anything. They use strictly Scripture, not cheap, trashy magazines rolling off the presses in Brooklyn claiming to be a hotline to heaven.

[Cal_Minian]

Actually, I never remember Chuck Smith ever being quoted as an authority at all in anything. They use strictly Scripture, not cheap, trashy magazines rolling off the presses in Brooklyn claiming to be a hotline to heaven.

Actually,
Chuck Smith is has now called some of the senior Pastors together to strenghen his power base. He also is kicking out CC Churchs that tend towards Calvinism.

So there is quite a bit of control going on behind the scene.

As for Chuck being quoted, I have heard his sermons being given almost word for word by other CC Pastors on the radio.

[Krusader]

Actually,
Chuck Smith is has now called some of the senior Pastors together to strenghen his power base. He also is kicking out CC Churchs that tend towards Calvinism.

So there is quite a bit of control going on behind the scene.

As for Chuck being quoted, I have heard his sermons being given almost word for word by other CC Pastors on the radio.

Well, I've never met a CCer who is a Calvinist - so how many could he be kicking out? I think you are attracted to the CC, and rightly so. There is a degree of freedom of thought and freedom to explore different views that you will neve have down at the Hall. Why not attend a service instead of listening to silly gossip.

[Cal_Minian]

Well, I've never met a CCer who is a Calvinist - so how many could he be kicking out? I think you are attracted to the CC, and rightly so. There is a degree of freedom of thought and freedom to explore different views that you will neve have down at the Hall. Why not attend a service instead of listening to silly gossip.


Actually,
I am attracted to their teachings because I meet them at their homes when I am evangelizing. I find it convenient to carry one of Chucks little pocket books with me where he predicts dates for the rapture that have passed. Then if they bring up our predictions (and they generally do!) I pop the little guy out of my bag and watch their jaws drop.

I once spoke to an assistant Pastor about this and after I showed him the book he backed off a bit.

Then I asked him, had he heard the one where the CC'ers had sold their homes and were waiting in the CC parking lot for the rapture.

He laughed and said he had not heard that one, but he did not deny it.

[Krusader]

Actually,
I am attracted to their teachings because I meet them at their homes when I am evangelizing. I find it convenient to carry one of Chucks little pocket books with me where he predicts dates for the rapture that have passed. Then if they bring up our predictions (and they generally do!) I pop the little guy out of my bag and watch their jaws drop.

I once spoke to an assistant Pastor about this and after I showed him the book he backed off a bit.

Then I asked him, had he heard the one where the CC'ers had sold their homes and were waiting in the CC parking lot for the rapture.

He laughed and said he had not heard that one, but he did not deny it.

You're probably attracted to the CC because they are one of the only evangelical denominations that really stresses apologetics, and really reaches out to cultists. Do you know Daniel Hall, a former JW? He preached a really wonderful presentation on the Watchtower at our local CC. We even had Mormons come to see it! I didn't know that Russell was a Mason until then - are you aware of that?

I think you attribute too much power to Smith. Each CC is autonomous, as are Baptist Churches. Hey, Christians say a lot of things that are questionable, but we don't impute them to God and call ourselves His mouthpiece and the "anointed" remnant. It's the doctrinal statements you need to review before evaluating any group.

[Cal_Minian]

You're probably attracted to the CC because they are one of the only evangelical denominations that really stresses apologetics, and really reaches out to cultists. Do you know Daniel Hall, a former JW? He preached a really wonderful presentation on the Watchtower at our local CC. We even had Mormons come to see it! I didn't know that Russell was a Mason until then - are you aware of that?

I think you attribute too much power to Smith. Each CC is autonomous, as are Baptist Churches. Hey, Christians say a lot of things that are questionable, but we don't impute them to God and call ourselves His mouthpiece and the "anointed" remnant. It's the doctrinal statements you need to review before evaluating any group.

No you are wrong. Chuck Smith has stated that if a CC church starts to teach Calvinism they have to take CC off the building.

The reason you do not hear about it is because they squash it before that generaly happens. It is mostly the junior pastors are starting to become Calvinists, or perhaps to lean towards Calvinism.

I predict that after Chuck dies, CC splits big time.

[Krusader]

No you are wrong. Chuck Smith has stated that if a CC church starts to teach Calvinism they have to take CC off the building.

The reason you do not hear about it is because they squash it before that generaly happens. It is mostly the junior pastors are starting to become Calvinists, or perhaps to lean towards Calvinism.

I predict that after Chuck dies, CC splits big time.

Are you aware that the CC already split - some are now Vineyards. But, so what if the CC splits over Calvinism - what with the big controversy in The Berean Call (and the editor is fairly pro CC - Dave Hunt), I wouldn't be shocked if there is a split. But, if there is they won't point fingers at each other and say the other party isn't Christian and part of the Body of Christ. Calvinism is divisive in many ways, and I say that as a Calvinist.

[Cal_Minian]

Are you aware that the CC already split - some are now Vineyards. But, so what if the CC splits over Calvinism - what with the big controversy in The Berean Call (and the editor is fairly pro CC - Dave Hunt), I wouldn't be shocked if there is a split. But, if there is they won't point fingers at each other and say the other party isn't Christian and part of the Body of Christ. Calvinism is divisive in many ways, and I say that as a Calvinist.


The assistant Pastor was concerned that CC would pretty much disintregrate as a cohesive group when Chuck is gone. That is more than a split and it would hurt him in his pocketbook.... out of a job... know what I mean?