Why God hid so great a salvation

[yxboom]

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Determinists reply preferred, but this thread is open for all comments. Maybe i misunderstand something or this could possibly be a strawman but given that unregenerate men will always choose against God and beings that Jesus is God. How is it a reasonable concern for God to intentionally hide His plan of redemption for fear that the Lord would not have been crucified? Is the concern that not the unregenerate but the elect would have thwart His plan?

[smaller]

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Determinists reply preferred, but this thread is open for all comments. Maybe i misunderstand something or this could possibly be a strawman but given that unregenerate men will always choose against God and beings that Jesus is God. How is it a reasonable concern for God to intentionally hide His plan of redemption for fear that the Lord would not have been crucified? Is the concern that not the unregenerate but the elect would have thwart His plan?

As an ultra determinist...;) here is The Word's take on these matters:

Mark 14:
27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
31 But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all.

And we know of course that with all the efforts of their supposed "freewills" they COULD NOT break what The Scriptures via The Living Word had PREscribed for them.

They could not accept these things from Jesus particularly coming on the heels of the prior statements wherein Jesus said one of them would betray Him.

All forms of "freewillers" should bow to the fact that these men DID NOT DO what THEY expressed or their respective WILL'S desired, but DID as The Word commanded THEY WOULD DO.

Jesus said and did God's Will:

Mark 14
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

A man who thinks by their "will" they came to God is not speaking the Truth on these matters. Men WILL do as they are directed to do by God's Will and for the purposes of final and eternal judgment for what is currently IN THEM that is RESISTING to God's Will and Word.

enjoy!

smaller

[yxboom]

As an ultra determinist...;) here is The Word's take on these matters:

Mark 14:
27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
31 But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all.

And we know of course that with all the efforts of their supposed "freewills" they COULD NOT break what The Scriptures via The Living Word had PREscribed for them.

They could not accept these things from Jesus particularly coming on the heels of the prior statements wherein Jesus said one of them would betray Him.

All forms of "freewillers" should bow to the fact that these men DID NOT DO what THEY expressed or their respective WILL'S desired, but DID as The Word commanded THEY WOULD DO.

Jesus said and did God's Will:

Mark 14
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

A man who thinks by their "will" they came to God is not speaking the Truth on these matters. Men WILL do as they are directed to do by God's Will and for the purposes of final and eternal judgment for what is currently IN THEM that is RESISTING to God's Will and Word.

enjoy!

smaller
thanks for the reply but I dont see my OP being addressed at all. All you did was argue that no one resists God's will. ok, granted. Now in regards to my OP that simply begs the question, if no one resists God's will than why did God hide his plan of redemption?

[smaller]

thanks for the reply but I dont see my OP being addressed at all. All you did was argue that no one resists God's will. ok, granted. Now in regards to my OP that simply begs the question, if no one resists God's will than why did God hide his plan of redemption?

That is because you do not see who The Gospel is HID FROM.

The Good News is NOT for the things IN MEN that resist God's Word and WILL and The Gospel is therefore hidden to those things.

Whenever you read of resistance you only SEE UNREGENERATE MEN. Where you see the ELECT you only see the GOOD THINGS.

The fact is that there is resistance to God's Word and Will in ALL MEN, even those who "think" they know Jesus and this is a fact to this day just as it was then.

So you see a plan hidden from (?whoever/the elect) but in fact that God's "plan" is automatically hidden from the resistant by God.

They were never meant to either see or hear anything from God but to automatically RESIST God and HIS PLANS whatever they may be and that resistance is IN MEN's hearts.

I would go even further to say you do not see "them" because you are not allowed by that resistence to see THEM in yourself just as the Disciples could not see this resistance in and amongst themselves.

enjoy!

smaller

[Zxcv Bnm]

Determinists reply preferred, but this thread is open for all comments. Maybe i misunderstand something or this could possibly be a strawman but given that unregenerate men will always choose against God and beings that Jesus is God. How is it a reasonable concern for God to intentionally hide His plan of redemption for fear that the Lord would not have been crucified? Is the concern that not the unregenerate but the elect would have thwart His plan?I may as easily misunderstand, [and I don't know if I am determinist,] but I don't think Paul is saying that the rulers would have become believers if the wisdom were revealed to them. I'm thinking perhaps one of the greatest pleasure of those who reject God would be to "disobey" Him--in this case to "thwart" His plan. They probably would have imprisoned or exiled Him rather than crucify Him, since the crucifixion would have only further proved Him to be messiah.

Just a thought. :smile:

[yxboom]

I may as easily misunderstand, [and I don't know if I am determinist,] but I don't think Paul is saying that the rulers would have become believers if the wisdom were revealed to them. I'm thinking perhaps one of the greatest pleasure of those who reject God would be to "disobey" Him--in this case to "thwart" His plan. They probably would have imprisoned or exiled Him rather than crucify Him, since the crucifixion would have only further proved Him to be messiah.

Just a thought. :smile:
In this case, I think we are reading it the same. I realize this could be Paul's way of illustrating that they didnt know who they were messing with. I am curious though if there is any validity to Paul's illustration or was he speaking purely hypothetically. And then what the determinst take was. If there was any validity to Paul's statement than if God risks nothing, why hide the plan? As smaller has already stated, they would have done what God determined them to do regardless.
I agree with you that it would seem that it would be more proof of prophecy and Messiahship had God revealed the mystery and the rulers do it anyway. It doesn't seem to follow in a determinist model imo.

[yxboom]

That is because you do not see who The Gospel is HID FROM.

The Good News is NOT for the things IN MEN that resist God's Word and WILL and The Gospel is therefore hidden to those things.

Whenever you read of resistance you only SEE UNREGENERATE MEN. Where you see the ELECT you only see the GOOD THINGS.

The fact is that there is resistance to God's Word and Will in ALL MEN, even those who "think" they know Jesus and this is a fact to this day just as it was then.

So you see a plan hidden from (?whoever/the elect) but in fact that God's "plan" is automatically hidden from the resistant by God.

They were never meant to either see or hear anything from God but to automatically RESIST God and HIS PLANS whatever they may be and that resistance is IN MEN's hearts.

I would go even further to say you do not see "them" because you are not allowed by that resistence to see THEM in yourself just as the Disciples could not see this resistance in and amongst themselves.

enjoy!

smaller
I completely miss what your point is.

[smaller]

I completely miss what your point is.

I'm going to try this one more time. Why, I don't know. (will he get it the third time?)

Your Quote:
How is it a reasonable concern for God to intentionally hide His plan of redemption for fear that the Lord would not have been crucified? Is the concern that not the unregenerate but the elect would have thwart His plan?

And the scripture cited:
1 Corinthians 2:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

The Princes of this world did not expect God to enter into the fray of the life of mankind personally. They didn't get it.

Who are the "princes of this world?"

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

1 Corinthians 2:6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

Follow the bouncing ball here: The princes of this world are the devil and his messengers. They are the princes of the power of the "air:"

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Wherever you see the Gospel HIDDEN and SPOKEN in PARABLES it is to HIDE The Truth of THE GOSPEL from THEM. THEY operate through the 5 SENSES of the FLESH, but are not savvy to the "ears" and "eyes" of The Spirit because there is NO LIFE or TRUTH in them.

It's a simple and consistent N.T. PRINCipal.

We as believers are supposed to KNOW why people DON'T believe/receive Jesus into their hearts YXBOOM.

2 Corinthians 4:
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You see my dear friend THEY do not ENJOY The Light of God's Words in the MINDS AND BODIES OF MANKIND! The Light TO THEM means THEIR ENDING is NEAR.

And the fact that you do not "hear" or "see" their WORLD AND WAYS is a problem for your body. You cannot be crucified to "this world" if you cannot discern IT. (Galatians 6:14)

Mark 8:
19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

dig?

sigh...

enjoy!

smaller

[Nang]

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

[quote]How is it a reasonable concern for God to intentionally hide His plan of redemption

What makes you conclude these verses teach that God hid His plan of redemption? Redemption is not mentioned or taught.

I see God's wisdom being hidden; which is embodied in His Holy Spirit.

The Gospel is not universally known, but it has been broadcast openly and not hidden at all.

It is the Holy Spirit of God that is withheld from the reprobate soul.

Jesus Christ was crucified by those persons bereft of God's Spirit.

They did not know Him as God and they murdered him in their unbelieving ignorance.

Nang

[yxboom]

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


What makes you conclude these verses teach that God hid His plan of redemption? Redemption is not mentioned or taught.
umm.. maybe the fact that Paul concludes the thought with the crucifixion of the Lord of glory.

[yxboom]

I'm going to try this one more time. Why, I don't know. (will he get it the third time?)

Your Quote:

And the scripture cited:
1 Corinthians 2:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

The Princes of this world did not expect God to enter into the fray of the life of mankind personally. They didn't get it.

Who are the "princes of this world?"

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

1 Corinthians 2:6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

Follow the bouncing ball here: The princes of this world are the devil and his messengers. They are the princes of the power of the "air:"

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Wherever you see the Gospel HIDDEN and SPOKEN in PARABLES it is to HIDE The Truth of THE GOSPEL from THEM. THEY operate through the 5 SENSES of the FLESH, but are not savvy to the "ears" and "eyes" of The Spirit because there is NO LIFE or TRUTH in them.

It's a simple and consistent N.T. PRINCipal.

We as believers are supposed to KNOW why people DON'T believe/receive Jesus into their hearts YXBOOM.

2 Corinthians 4:
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You see my dear friend THEY do not ENJOY The Light of God's Words in the MINDS AND BODIES OF MANKIND! The Light TO THEM means THEIR ENDING is NEAR.

And the fact that you do not "hear" or "see" their WORLD AND WAYS is a problem for your body. You cannot be crucified to "this world" if you cannot discern IT. (Galatians 6:14)

Mark 8:
19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

dig?

sigh...

enjoy!

smaller
smaller, seriously i appreciate your response and willingness to repost a second time. but i apologize that i still am not "seeing it". if you dont want to give it a third shot i can respect that.

[Nang]

umm.. maybe the fact that Paul concludes the thought with the crucifixion of the Lord of glory.

Those who crucified our Lord were reprobate; bereft of God's Holy Spirit according to the will of God, and thereby without Godly wisdom.

But many of those who cheered and advocated the crucifixion were very familiar with the teachings of Moses, the Psalmists, and the Prophets which all prophesied and preached the redemption of God . . .and many had heard Jesus Christ Himself preach the kingdom of God.

So it was not that redemption by the Messiah was hidden, but it was the fact that the Holy Spirit was not given to those who murdered Jesus.

Jesus said while on the cross: "They know not what they do."



Nang

[yxboom]

ok thats reasonable. thanks.

[7thangel]

In this case, I think we are reading it the same. I realize this could be Paul's way of illustrating that they didnt know who they were messing with. I am curious though if there is any validity to Paul's illustration or was he speaking purely hypothetically. And then what the determinst take was. If there was any validity to Paul's statement than if God risks nothing, why hide the plan? As smaller has already stated, they would have done what God determined them to do regardless.

I agree with you that it would seem that it would be more proof of prophecy and Messiahship had God revealed the mystery and the rulers do it anyway. It doesn't seem to follow in a determinist model imo.

As the Bible say, "wisdom giveth life to them that have it." It is impossible for man to have wisdom and deny it. The fact is wisdom is itself that leads us to salvation, that is why wisdom is personified by Christ himself, our saviour.

God did not reveal the wisdom unto the lost, else they will surely not crucify Christ and surely will obey God, not because they will do other way to disobey God.

God had predestined them to be blind and to be lost, Or rather, more perfectly, God hid the mystery to the losts because they are made unto vessels of destruction. In fact, the Bible says, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

[Xmansmommy]

In fact, the Bible says, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

So if God hadn't blinded them they would have heard, understood, believed and been healed? Wow, why would God set out to make them vessels for destruction if they would have believed if He hadn't blinded them in the first place? That's amazing to me!

[7thangel]

So if God hadn't blinded them they would have heard, understood, believed and been healed?

Yes, that is how the way we should understand those words.


Wow, why would God set out to make them vessels for destruction if they would have believed if He hadn't blinded them in the first place? That's amazing to me!

If it is true that a person is dependent of God's work on him to be good or evil, then man is mere automaton. For God to value an automaton is like valuing gold, because a human automaton is nothing but a clay whose value is dependent on the user. So it is supposed to be that the user, which is God, is where value of things are objected.

But unfortunately, most of us see that humans are moral beings independent of God.

[smaller]

smaller, seriously i appreciate your response and willingness to repost a second time. but i apologize that i still am not "seeing it". if you dont want to give it a third shot i can respect that.

That's OK YX. Your response is exactly what is supposed to occur. And that was the 3rd shot.