The second question the Arminian can't answer

[Colossians]

2. This question concerns the pragmatics of faith:

Jesus told Peter that He had prayed that Peter's faith would not fail - that Peter would endure to the end.
The Arminian tells us that it was up to Peter as to whether he stayed aligned with God or not: Peter had free will, and God would never override this.


The question:
"Given that Jesus always prayed in accord with the will of God and therefore always received what He asked for, how was Peter's free will a factor in the retention of his faith?"

[Tercel]

Given that Jesus always prayed in accord with the will of God and therefore always received what He asked forThen how do you explain the fact that his prayer for unity of the Church (John 17:11,21-22) has gone so horribly wrong?

[infide]

2. This question concerns the pragmatics of faith:

Jesus told Peter that He had prayed that Peter's faith would not fail - that Peter would endure to the end.
The Arminian tells us that it was up to Peter as to whether he stayed aligned with God or not: Peter had free will, and God would never override this.


The question:
"Given that Jesus always prayed in accord with the will of God and therefore always received what He asked for, how was Peter's free will a factor in the retention of his faith?"

does Jesus ever say that this was not simply a desire that was frustrated by Peter's free will to fail in faith? I mean really - isnt Jesus saying that his faith would fail, given the following statement about denying Him 3 times?

He does say that He prayed for Him that He would not fail. But we know that Peter does fail in faith. So what to make of this? You seem to suggest that Jesus meant "in the long term" or "in the final account" or something like that. But is that what Jesus is saying?

i think the scenario in question is more nuanced than you want to acknowledge here.

peace,
jd

[Kevin Wayne]

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality.


I guess everytime a Christian slips up & falls into immorailty, we can say that God's will is "frustrated"?

Unless, that is- his will is that he have humans independent of himself who are able to have a genuine relationship...

So along with Tercel's example, I'd say we now have two places where God allows the carrying out of his intentions to depends partly on us.

[Zxcv Bnm]

"Given that Jesus always prayed in accord with the will of God and therefore always received what He asked for, how was Peter's free will a factor in the retention of his faith?"I thought the "free will" debate was about the ability of the sinner to willingly accept Lord Jesus as saviour. Am I wrong?

I don't think the Arminean rejects the concept of God using His people against their will (Look at Jonah).

But I think Peter was more than willing to endure to the end.

[Kevin Wayne]

I thought the "free will" debate was about the ability of the sinner to willingly accept Lord Jesus as saviour. Am I wrong?

I don't think the Arminean rejects the concept of God using His people against their will (Look at Jonah).

But I think Peter was more than willing to endure to the end.



Amazing all these questions Arminians can't answer, that we keep answering... ;-)

[Colossians]

Tercel,
Then how do you explain the fact that his prayer for unity of the Church (John 17:11,21-22) has gone so horribly wrong?
Praying that his people will be one, is understood to have to come through love and forebearance, which takes time. So the Lord was speaking of a process, which definitely occurs as a result of His prayer in Jo 17.
This is vastly different from praying for one's faith to not fail, which can only be realised at the end of such a one's life.
So your supposed counter-example is no good.


Infide,
isnt Jesus saying that his faith would fail, given the following statement about denying Him 3 times?
Jesus’ prayer for Peter’s faith was concerning what faith is about: ultimate salvation. Not some interim faith over a particular event.



Zxcv,
I thought the "free will" debate was about the ability of the sinner to willingly accept Lord Jesus as saviour. Am I wrong?
Yes you’re wrong. It’s about any free will any time. Nice try at compartmentalising though.

I don't think the Arminean rejects the concept of God using His people against their will (Look at Jonah).
Jonah was not used against his will. He changed his mind and went obediently. Your example is bogus.

But I think Peter was more than willing to endure to the end.
Begging the question.



Kevin Wayne
Amazing all these questions Arminians can't answer, that we keep answering...
(He just doesn’t get it!)





So we are still waiting for the answer.

[seer]

Tercel,
Then how do you explain the fact that his prayer for unity of the Church (John 17:11,21-22) has gone so horribly wrong?
Praying that his people will be one, is understood to have to come through love and forebearance, which takes time. So the Lord was speaking of a process, which definitely occurs as a result of His prayer in Jo 17.
This is vastly different from praying for one's faith to not fail, which can only be realised at the end of such a one's life.
So your supposed counter-example is no good.


Infide,
isnt Jesus saying that his faith would fail, given the following statement about denying Him 3 times?
Jesus’ prayer for Peter’s faith was concerning what faith is about: ultimate salvation. Not some interim faith over a particular event.



Zxcv,
I thought the "free will" debate was about the ability of the sinner to willingly accept Lord Jesus as saviour. Am I wrong?
Yes you’re wrong. It’s about any free will any time. Nice try at compartmentalising though.

I don't think the Arminean rejects the concept of God using His people against their will (Look at Jonah).
Jonah was not used against his will. He changed his mind and went obediently. Your example is bogus.

But I think Peter was more than willing to endure to the end.
Begging the question.



Kevin Wayne
Amazing all these questions Arminians can't answer, that we keep answering...
(He just doesn’t get it!)





So we are still waiting for the answer.

You forgot Kevin's point:

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality.


I guess everytime a Christian slips up & falls into immorailty, we can say that God's will is "frustrated"?

Unless, that is- his will is that he have humans independent of himself who are able to have a genuine relationship...

So along with Tercel's example, I'd say we now have two places where God allows the carrying out of his intentions to depends partly on us.

When the genuine Christian falls into sexual sin, and we do, we have frustrated the explicit will of God...

[Kevin Wayne]

I don't think the Arminean rejects the concept of God using His people against their will (Look at Jonah).
Jonah was not used against his will. He changed his mind and went obediently. Your example is bogus.




Big deal. Use Jeremiah as your example then. Either way, the concept still stands.

[Bill the Cat]

The question:
"Given that Jesus always prayed in accord with the will of God and therefore always received what He asked for :snip:

Matthew 23:37
37" Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Not all the time...

[john-philip]

Amazing how these one line responses can so easily refute everything in this thread. Brilliance. :ahem:

[infide]

Infide,
isnt Jesus saying that his faith would fail, given the following statement about denying Him 3 times?
Jesus’ prayer for Peter’s faith was concerning what faith is about: ultimate salvation. Not some interim faith over a particular event.


absolute nonsense. faith is not simply about final salvation at the gwt. Its about a way of life, salvation from the evil and destruction we live in RIGHT NOW.

Are you a deist in Calvinist clothing?

peace,
jd

[themuzicman]

2. This question concerns the pragmatics of faith:

Jesus told Peter that He had prayed that Peter's faith would not fail - that Peter would endure to the end.
The Arminian tells us that it was up to Peter as to whether he stayed aligned with God or not: Peter had free will, and God would never override this.


The question:
"Given that Jesus always prayed in accord with the will of God and therefore always received what He asked for, how was Peter's free will a factor in the retention of his faith?"

This begs the question: Is God's will always done?

Michael

[geebob]

It is well within the scope of free will theism to suggest that one can have personal developement up to the point where he no longer excersized libertarian freedom in his his relationship with God IN TERMS of whether he is for God or against Him.

I assume we are speaking of Peter before the denial. So his developement (based upon libertarian free choices that have already been made) would've been such that he had some rocky places that had yet to be ironed out (the three denials), but in the end, he would continue on in God's plans.

[Colossians]

Seer,

You forgot Kevin's point:
Quote:
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality.
I guess everytime a Christian slips up & falls into immorailty, we can say that God's will is "frustrated"?
The "will of God" here in 1 Th 4:3 speaks of that which pleases God, not His sovereign will.
The verse which tells us that we know we have the petitions we ask of Him, speaks of that which is definitely locked in in God’s sovereign power and intent to answer as requested.
You therefore have not answered the question as to why Peter’s free will had anything to do with his salvation, given that Jesus prayed in accord with God’s will for him to be saved, thus securing the petition on His own without Peter’s input.




Kevin Wayne,
I don't think the Arminean rejects the concept of God using His people against their will (Look at Jonah).
Jonah was not used against his will. He changed his mind and went obediently. Your example is bogus.
Big deal. Use Jeremiah as your example then. Either way, the concept still stands.
No-one does anything unless they have decided to do it. You have no concept except a bogus one.




BilltheCat.
The question:
"Given that Jesus always prayed in accord with the will of God and therefore always received what He asked for
Scripture Verse:
Matthew 23:37
37" Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Not all the time...
This is a typical of the Arminian mindset. Rather than deduce he might be errant, he declares Christ was errant instead.
Think Mr Cat. Where did Jesus in Matt 23 pray for Jerusalem? (I’m all ears.)





John Philip
Amazing how these one line responses can so easily refute everything in this thread. Brilliance.
See above for how brilliant it was, and then wipe the egg off your face.





Infide.
isnt Jesus saying that his faith would fail, given the following statement about denying Him 3 times?
Jesus’ prayer for Peter’s faith was concerning what faith is about: ultimate salvation. Not some interim faith over a particular event.
absolute nonsense. faith is not simply about final salvation at the gwt. Its about a way of life, salvation from the evil and destruction we live in RIGHT NOW.
You don’t understand the scripture here.
Jesus related that Satan “ desired to have you” (meaning destroy their faith unto salvation). The question concerns a specific prayer that Peter’s faith fail not ultimately.
So your attempt to divide faith into smaller subsets, won’t work. All faith is ultimately faith in the Cross of Christ.
Any faith that does not have as its one and only focus the cross of Christ, is mere carnal desire, and will result in nothing except a head-ache.





Themuzicman,
This begs the question: Is God's will always done?
It doesn’t beg this question at all. We are told we always have the petitions we ask of Him if we ask in accord with his will. Thus you need to answer the question as stated.





Geebob,
It is well within the scope of free will theism to suggest that one can have personal developement up to the point where he no longer excersized libertarian freedom in his his relationship with God IN TERMS of whether he is for God or against Him.
I assume we are speaking of Peter before the denial. So his developement (based upon libertarian free choices that have already been made) would've been such that he had some rocky places that had yet to be ironed out (the three denials), but in the end, he would continue on in God's plans.
The issue in Luke 22 is about salvation (endurance to the end). Your tangent is necessarily out of context, and thus you have not answered the question which has quite irrefutable parameters. They are:
1. Christ prayed that Peter would not lose his faith in response to Satan’s wanting “to have you”.
2. Christ always prays in accord with God’s will
3. Those who pray in accord with God’s will always receive what they ask for.


But even if we are not talking about salvation, but some interim point, the question’s illocutionary force is not diminished. Christ had prayed, and received what He prayed for. The question as to what input Peter was required from Peter still stands.

[geebob]

The issue in Luke 22 is about salvation (endurance to the end). Your tangent is necessarily out of context, and thus you have not answered the question which has quite irrefutable parameters. They are:
1. Christ prayed that Peter would not lose his faith in response to Satan’s wanting “to have you”.
2. Christ always prays in accord with God’s will
3. Those who pray in accord with God’s will always receive what they ask for.


If that is absolutely true, (which I don't believe it is), then it is the case that Jesus would never pray in accordance with God's will in such a way that would take away ones libertarian free will to the point where it compromises God's purpose in making them free. And that is still perfectly coherent with what I said. The libertarian free choices made in Peter's past where sufficient for God such that he had no need to preserve his freedom with respect to the general destiny of his soul. His freedom had fullfilled it's purpose.

[themuzicman]

Themuzicman,
This begs the question: Is God's will always done?
It doesn’t beg this question at all. We are told we always have the petitions we ask of Him if we ask in accord with his will. Thus you need to answer the question as stated.

REALLY? Care to cite?

Michael

[Colossians]

REALLY? Care to cite?

Michael
Look up your bible.

[themuzicman]

Look up your bible.
Didn't think so.

[Chappie]

2. This question concerns the pragmatics of faith:

Jesus told Peter that He had prayed that Peter's faith would not fail - that Peter would endure to the end.
The Arminian tells us that it was up to Peter as to whether he stayed aligned with God or not: Peter had free will, and God would never override this.


The question:
"Given that Jesus always prayed in accord with the will of God and therefore always received what He asked for, how was Peter's free will a factor in the retention of his faith?"

Luke 22:41-43 (King James Version)
41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

Was the cup removed.

Why was Jesus praying for Peter. Did he forget what he had in eternity past predestined?

[Colossians]

Chappie,

Luke 22:41-43 (King James Version)
41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Was the cup removed.
No because the prayer included the proviso “if it be thy will”.
When Jesus prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail, there was no proviso, but rock solid petition.

So it is back to you to tell us how Peter’s will had any thing to do with it.