Colossians: Is God Double Minded?

[seer]

From another thread:


ME: 1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality.

I guess everytime a Christian slips up & falls into immorailty, we can say that God's will is "frustrated"?


COL: The "will of God" here in 1 Th 4:3 speaks of that which pleases God, not His sovereign will.

Excuse me Colossians. Are you saying that God is double minded? Part of God desires that we do not fornicate, but another part of God - His sovereign will -wants us to fornicate? So when I fornicate I'am doing God's will?

[Colossians]

Seer,


Your question is easily answered:


God's will is two-fold:
1. God's will for His Son (His will that His Son might suffer in order to learn obedience through such suffering, and so glorify the Father). This is typed in Abraham's offering of Isaac without cause from Isaac. And so it is written of Christ: "They hated Him without a cause".
2. God's will in Christ (His will as per the mind of Christ (that which pleases God and responds obediently to the suffering resultant from (1)). This is typed in Isaac's obedient response to Abraham.
Thus it is written of Christ: "He learned obedience by the things He suffered".

(1) is outworked via the old man in us: the more the old man does, the more Christ had to suffer.
(2) is outworked via the new man is us.




The transaction therefore is only properly understood from top down, not bottom up:
There was and is an irresistable urge in the Godhead to demonstrate His glory via the obedience of the Son to the Father.
The mechanism used to achieve this was the 'divorcing' of the Son from His Bride in a realm of time, so rendering the Bride a sinner (being not joined to her Head), making her to live without wisdom from such Head.
Such sin therefore was created by God in order to provide the incentive for the Son to demonstrate obedience in suffering at Calvary: He had to reconcile His wife to Himself. Thus it is written: "He endured the cross for the joy that was set before Him".

Such reconciliation is evidenced in the New Man within us, who grows more and more each day via a knowledge of forgiveness for having been separated from the Husband, which was caused by God anyway.

Thus as well as the Son learning obedience against an 'undeserved act', the wife learns it also, but she through the rest of grace after the fact of disobedience, and He through suffering without a cause. Thus the Bride and Groom are united in One in the obedience of a love which necessarily "takes no account of wrong suffered".




So the whole thing was not a sort of 'plan B' (a salvaging of a plan gone horribly wrong), but a deliberate transaction of obedience between the Father and the Son, at the will of the Father, resulting in such obedience being infused into His Bride by their being joined as One again in Holy Matrimony.

What we are seeing linearly in time is therefore not a progressive constituting of the Body of Christ, but the eternal constitution itself of such Body revealed incrementally: the time-constrained linear demonstration of what is "I am" outside of time.
The whole thing is not about contingency, but God's irresistable and unending urge to be and demonstrate who He is, within the Godhead.
To wit: God's love is no mere statement of such, but perpetual demonstration in the Son within the Trinity of God.

And so: "He has been given a name above all names".

Be advised accordingly.

[yxboom]

uh.... what does this have to do with the tea in China?

[seer]

Seer,


Your question is easily answered:


God's will is two-fold:
1. God's will for His Son (His will that His Son might suffer in order to learn obedience through such suffering, and so glorify the Father). This is typed in Abraham's offering of Isaac without cause from Isaac. And so it is written of Christ: "They hated Him without a cause".
2. God's will in Christ (His will as per the mind of Christ (that which pleases God and responds obediently to the suffering resultant from (1)). This is typed in Isaac's obedient response to Abraham.
Thus it is written of Christ: "He learned obedience by the things He suffered".

(1) is outworked via the old man in us: the more the old man does, the more Christ had to suffer.
(2) is outworked via the new man is us.




The transaction therefore is only properly understood from top down, not bottom up:
There was and is an irresistable urge in the Godhead to demonstrate His glory via the obedience of the Son to the Father.
The mechanism used to achieve this was the 'divorcing' of the Son from His Bride in a realm of time, so rendering the Bride a sinner (being not joined to her Head), making her to live without wisdom from such Head.
Such sin therefore was created by God in order to provide the incentive for the Son to demonstrate obedience in suffering at Calvary: He had to reconcile His wife to Himself. Thus it is written: "He endured the cross for the joy that was set before Him".

Such reconciliation is evidenced in the New Man within us, who grows more and more each day via a knowledge of forgiveness for having been separated from the Husband, which was caused by God anyway.

Thus as well as the Son learning obedience against an 'undeserved act', the wife learns it also, but she through the rest of grace after the fact of disobedience, and He through suffering without a cause. Thus the Bride and Groom are united in One in the obedience of a love which necessarily "takes no account of wrong suffered".




So the whole thing was not a sort of 'plan B' (a salvaging of a plan gone horribly wrong), but a deliberate transaction of obedience between the Father and the Son, at the will of the Father, resulting in such obedience being infused into His Bride by their being joined as One again in Holy Matrimony.

What we are seeing linearly in time is therefore not a progressive constituting of the Body of Christ, but the eternal constitution itself of such Body revealed incrementally: the time-constrained linear demonstration of what is "I am" outside of time.
The whole thing is not about contingency, but God's irresistable and unending urge to be and demonstrate who He is, within the Godhead.
To wit: God's love is no mere statement of such, but perpetual demonstration in the Son within the Trinity of God.

And so: "He has been given a name above all names".

Be advised accordingly.

What? Let's get back to some basic yes or not answers. So if the Christian fornicates is he doing the will of God? Does part of God want us to sin while another part of God doesn't? Please give a direct reply...

[Colossians]

You need to go back and study what I have written.
It is clear that at present you are still on milk to some extent. What I have written is solid food, and will therefore take you some time to understand.

[yxboom]

You need to go back and study what I have written.
It is clear that at present you are still on milk to some extent. What I have written is solid food, and will therefore take you some time to understand.
iow he can only answer by obfuscation.

[seer]

You need to go back and study what I have written.
It is clear that at present you are still on milk to some extent. What I have written is solid food, and will therefore take you some time to understand.

It's a simple question Colossians, one of many you have avoided. Here, I'll write it so that even you can understand it - when a Christian fornicates is he doing God's will?

[john-philip]

You know, Colossians, people with more outrageous theology than you have resorted to using the milk/meat analogy when they are left defenseless. All I ask is that you be a little more original. :wink:

[Nang]

So when I fornicate I'am doing God's will?

You are a fornicator?

Shame on you.

Nang

[john-philip]

He was just trying to do God's will. :no:

[Nang]

He was just trying to do God's will. :no:

Fornication is a sin, and God never authorizes sin.

Fornicators are performing (authorizing) their own will; not the will of Holy God.

Shame and guilt resides upon them.

Nang

[seer]

Fornication is a sin, and God never authorizes sin.

Fornicators are performing (authorizing) their own will; not the will of Holy God.

Shame and guilt resides upon them.

Nang


Will you guys get it straight? Colossians said that if Christian fornicates he is doing the sovereign will of God (see his quote in the first post on this thread). Or - can we resist the will of God?

[Kevin Wayne]

Will you guys get it straight? Colossians said that if Christian fornicates he is doing the sovereign will of God (see his quote in the first post on this thread). Or - can we resist the will of God?


They aren't going to becuase their objective isn't actual Theological dialougue, but boasting on their percieved superiority.


***Edited to add***


Oh, and the gist of Colossians' post has to do with the issue of there being two separate wills of God in different circumstances and applications: the will of God for his Son vs. the will of God for his bride.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

In the "two wills" view, I think this implies that God experiences frustration, and has to compromise, if there are conflicts in his desires, or conflicts between his desires and his will (this seems to be John Piper's view), or if there are conflicts in his will.

And that won't do...

Isaiah 46:10 I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

So I believe God's will (that we not commit sin) will indeed be fulfilled, Jesus said the law will all be fulfilled, which must imply complete obedience! And yet God's plan also involves sinful actions, as part of his ultimate plan.

So a given sinful deed is part of God's plan for good, and also, the law will be completely fulfilled, as well, so God does not have to give up one desire in order to have another desire, or to have his will fulfilled.

Blessings,
Lee

Frustration:

1) The condition that results when an impulse or an action is
thwarted by an external or an internal force.

2) The blocking or thwarting of an impulse, purpose, or action.

(American Heritage Dictionary)

"Compromise: Make a compromise; arrive at a compromise; 'nobody will get everything he wants; we all must compromise.'" (Webster's Dictionary)

[Kevin Wayne]

Hi everyone,

In the "two wills" view, I think this implies that God experiences frustration, and has to compromise, if there are conflicts in his desires, or conflicts between his desires and his will (this seems to be John Piper's view), or if there are conflicts in his will.

And that won't do...

Isaiah 46:10 I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

So I believe God's will (that we not commit sin) will indeed be fulfilled, Jesus said the law will all be fulfilled, which must imply complete obedience! And yet God's plan also involves sinful actions, as part of his ultimate plan.

So a given sinful deed is part of God's plan for good, and also, the law will be completely fulfilled, as well, so God does not have to give up one desire in order to have another desire, or to have his will fulfilled.

Blessings,
Lee

Frustration:

1) The condition that results when an impulse or an action is
thwarted by an external or an internal force.

2) The blocking or thwarting of an impulse, purpose, or action.

(American Heritage Dictionary)

"Compromise: Make a compromise; arrive at a compromise; 'nobody will get everything he wants; we all must compromise.'" (Webster's Dictionary)



I think I can reasonably hold to my basic view without seeing God as being ultimately frustrated or having to "compromise". Do remember that Jesus weeped over the city of Jerusalem demostrating Godly sorrow over unwillingness to be gathered. But OTHOH, God also intended that those people have a genuine choice, and that they be allowed to go to the consquences of thier choices. As Bloesch likes to put it, God's love has two sides: mercy & wrath. If one strays form the mercy of God, there then is the wrath of God, but it's still never falling from his Love.

[lee_merrill]

Do remember that Jesus weeped over the city of Jerusalem demostrating Godly sorrow over unwillingness to be gathered.
But how is this not experiencing some measure of frustration, if Jesus wanted them to be saved (as I believe he did), and yet they were not? An unfulfilled desire is the definition of being frustrated, no matter how well we may handle it, or whether we saw it coming.

But OTHOH, God also intended that those people have a genuine choice, and that they be allowed to go to the consquences of their choices.
Yes, and then God's desires are in conflict with his will, and not all God's purposes can be accomplished, if he sets out to save each person (as I believe he does).

So this involves experiences of frustration, and, having to choose between two alternatives, where not every purpose can be achieved, compromising (though not compromising in the sense of doing less than the best you can, and losing integrity).

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. If someone strews your apples, make apple strewdle!

[Kevin Wayne]

But how is this not experiencing some measure of frustration, if Jesus wanted them to be saved (as I believe he did), and yet they were not? An unfulfilled desire is the definition of being frustrated, no matter how well we may handle it, or whether we saw it coming.


Yes, and then God's desires are in conflict with his will, and not all God's purposes can be accomplished, if he sets out to save each person (as I believe he does).

So this involves experiences of frustration, and, having to choose between two alternatives, where not every purpose can be achieved, compromising (though not compromising in the sense of doing less than the best you can, and losing integrity).

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. If someone strews your apples, make apple strewdle!



Well you just told me two posts ago that frustration & compromise were not things God did - so by what you just said, that was wrong.

But my point was that God can't "ultimately" be frustrated- Romans 14:11.

[lee_merrill]

Well you just told me two posts ago that frustration & compromise were not things God did - so by what you just said, that was wrong.
Well, no, I believe we may hope for even these people to be saved, after judgment, and after death, so Jesus' desire is not frustrated. This is not, however, the usual view, the usual view was what I was recounting in the previous post.

But my point was that God can't "ultimately" be frustrated- Romans 14:11.
Yes, I agree, "every knee will bow, every tongue will confess Jesus as Lord" (see 1 Cor. 12:3, and Isa. 45:23, "swear allegiance") also gives hope for everyone, I would say.

And thus God does not experience frustration, nor does he have to compromise, and that does fit Scripture, that God does not experience either of these.

Blessings,
Lee