How many of you are former christians? {For Non-Theists Only}

[Bagger_Vance]

I myself was quite the fundamentalist at one time. My de-conversion was very gradual. I started as fire and brimstone inerrantist. I studied and discussed and the more I read, saw, and discussed the more I saw nuance and doubt. I found myself bending over backwards to excuse things in the Bible and I really started disliking my fellow christians. :lol:

First it was little things. I acknowledged evolution as fact(I know that sounds lame but hey small steps). Then I moved from Biblical Inerrancy to a position of the Bible as a way to get to heaven not how the heavens go. A position that the parts in the Old Testament didn't apply anymore etc. Basically I moved from Evangelical Bible Thumper to Liberal Christianity. I was pro-choice, pacifist, and so on and do forth. Then over time it just came down to the problem of evil and the doctrine of hell that finally sapped my last bit of faith. I only officially acknowledged where I ended up a few months ago. That is to say that I was for all intents and purposes a Quaker style christian that couldn't post in this forum up until a short time ago.

For me it was the PoE and the doctrine of Hell that sealed the deal. What was it for you guys?

[Ryokan]

Well, I started out a Roman Catholic. however, several issues, including the problem of evil, a lack of any hard evidence for God, little luck with mysticism, and the weakness of arguements from my theology teachers brought me to where I am today. It was a gradual thing, though. Few people just wake up one day and abandon their faith.

[Bagger_Vance]

Well, I started out a Roman Catholic. however, several issues, including the problem of evil, a lack of any hard evidence for God, little luck with mysticism, and the weakness of arguements from my theology teachers brought me to where I am today. It was a gradual thing, though. Few people just wake up one day and abandon their faith.

I personally finally came to the realization that I was being intellectually dishonest in desperate attempts to justify and defend Christianity. I would work backwards from tragedies to explain away God's culpability and eventually I just saw that. It didn't happen overnight but when it finally all came together there was no going back.

I remember hearing this preacher that I know and admire telling this woman that he didn't know why her husband died but he was sure God had a plan. I still love the guy but that angred me to no end. How could you go from dishonesty to truth so quickly in one sentence. Of course he didn't know why her husband died but he also has no idea what God's plan is and to speak about it in certain terms is a fallacy. I kept seeing that and hearing contrastly things like "We can't know but know that it was for God's plan". You just said we can't know! :ahem:

[EvoUK]

I went from apathetic, never having religion really a meaningful part of my early life- I have no idea what my parents believe regarding a god, and quite frankly I couldn't care less- and having to sing hymns and say the lords prayer in every assembly at school, to it being brought up in a RE lesson at school, where I actually went away and looked it up. It took me a couple of years, but the more I looked into it- the history of the bible and christianity, the "arguments" for god etc- the more self-evidently absurd the whole concept became.

After that I called myself an agnostic- afterall, I only actively disbelieved in one god- the god put forward as a majority by my society. After that I looked into the idea of a god as a concept, and found that just as unlikely- so I became what I am now. Weak atheist towards deist gods, and strong agnostic towards every defined god I've yet come across.

[mentored1]

I myself was quite the fundamentalist at one time. My de-conversion was very gradual. I started as fire and brimstone inerrantist. I studied and discussed and the more I read, saw, and discussed the more I saw nuance and doubt. I found myself bending over backwards to excuse things in the Bible and I really started disliking my fellow christians. :lol:

First it was little things. I acknowledged evolution as fact(I know that sounds lame but hey small steps). Then I moved from Biblical Inerrancy to a position of the Bible as a way to get to heaven not how the heavens go. A position that the parts in the Old Testament didn't apply anymore etc. Basically I moved from Evangelical Bible Thumper to Liberal Christianity. I was pro-choice, pacifist, and so on and do forth. Then over time it just came down to the problem of evil and the doctrine of hell that finally sapped my last bit of faith. I only officially acknowledged where I ended up a few months ago. That is to say that I was for all intents and purposes a Quaker style christian that couldn't post in this forum up until a short time ago.

For me it was the PoE and the doctrine of Hell that sealed the deal. What was it for you guys?


Well met again Bagger!

I'm glad to see that you didn't toss around the "A" word here... Good boy...

I was a fire and brimstone Baptist almost Preacher... The doctrines of the Church at first drew my questioning gaze: exclusivist doctrines mixed with inflexible ethical rules and what not... After dismantling those I got booted from the Church...

Started checking up on some deeper issues like Gnosticism and varying interpretations of Scripture... Then into comparative Mythology... the common threads of archetypes and the power behind them really opened my eyes to the depths of spiritual writing and mysticism in general... I knew it was NEVER intended to be taken literally...

The part that made the process to doubt irreversible was the study of some neglected philosophical trails in the mind... The crystallization that all that I "know" to be real is real only to my own mind... How do I know what I think I know... that sort of stuff...

My journey was more about these abstract realizations than anything concrete... It was altering or removing the alterations (not sure which) to various faculties and functions in my head... Of course the fire-brimstone personality still sulks in the mental basement but his services are enlisted when discussing issues with Bible believers so I "employ" his services from time to time... :b_evil:

Take care

[Bagger_Vance]

Well met again Bagger!

I'm glad to see that you didn't toss around the "A" word here... Good boy...

I was a fire and brimstone Baptist almost Preacher... The doctrines of the Church at first drew my questioning gaze: exclusivist doctrines mixed with inflexible ethical rules and what not... After dismantling those I got booted from the Church...

Started checking up on some deeper issues like Gnosticism and varying interpretations of Scripture... Then into comparative Mythology... the common threads of archetypes and the power behind them really opened my eyes to the depths of spiritual writing and mysticism in general... I knew it was NEVER intended to be taken literally...

The part that made the process to doubt irreversible was the study of some neglected philosophical trails in the mind... The crystallization that all that I "know" to be real is real only to my own mind... How do I know what I think I know... that sort of stuff...

My journey was more about these abstract realizations than anything concrete... It was altering or removing the alterations (not sure which) to various faculties and functions in my head... Of course the fire-brimstone personality still sulks in the mental basement but his services are enlisted when discussing issues with Bible believers so I "employ" his services from time to time... :b_evil:

Take care

I can definitely see your questioning of the fundamentals of knowledge and what we can know going over poorly in a baptist setting. :lol: I was not Baptist but my father was a preacher that sorta jumped from denomination to denomination preaching. He was an evangelist so I saw all the different denominations in the Deep South. I've even seen the Snake Handlers. Interesting stuff but I doubt your deep thinking would go over well in those settings.

I liked a lot about Gnosticism myself. I was very friendly towards it and still am from a philosophical standpoint. I actually take the stance of Gandhi on Jesus. I like Jesus a lot. I think a lot of what he said should be followed if you ignore the diety stuff, the hell doctrine, and miracle business I think Jesus had some great things to say about compassion, perception, and the problems facing mankind. That isn't unique but it is still a good man to study so long as you don't go overboard.

[gharfish]

I myself was quite the fundamentalist at one time. My de-conversion was very gradual. I started as fire and brimstone inerrantist. I studied and discussed and the more I read, saw, and discussed the more I saw nuance and doubt. I found myself bending over backwards to excuse things in the Bible and I really started disliking my fellow christians. :lol:

First it was little things......

I only officially acknowledged where I ended up a few months ago......

For me it was the PoE and the doctrine of Hell that sealed the deal. What was it for you guys?Good for you Badger. You worked your way out of the tight shackles of ignorance that others had put you in. You freed your mind; stoicly faced the hard truths, as each came to you, that revealed the fraudulence of all things Christian. "Did you let go, and let Buddha ?" Was he involved at all in "the deal ?"...after the sealing of...? Is he/it anywhere near where you "ended up, a few months ago" ...or did you just accidentally press the wrong key for religious affiliation when you joined-up on TWeb ?

Well, now that all that ugliness is behind you, I wonder: what will you do with the freedom, of sorts, that your hard won transcendence has brought you (?)

Oh...right in front of my face !

You are now here, all over TWeb, helping others de-convert from on high, or shake the weakest of the potentially faithful back down into the disillusionment that is an eventuality if one is an honest-to-self, courageous, intellectual (as we see in you).

BTW; I'm sorry that you suffered so long under Christianity -so long, in your struggle towards the light, to gain that sure foothold on the solid ground of (dare I say ?) THE ultimate truth, of all the "ultimate" kinds.

Which is what again ? I forgot. Enlighten me, Buddy C., because I am not 'a fan' -following your day-by-day, point-by-point, public dismantling of your former faith. What's "new," I mean ?! (Buddhism ?)

Born anew; you stand before us: cooly dispassionate, unflinchingly extending your hand now above and then even into the very flame of cruel logic, itSELF...proud and erect, ready to attend to a new personal cause. Kudos ! For you have clearly again taken a fiery stand for what is right, fundamentally. --> What's TRULY right, this time around; yes ?! *Pearls !

Mother Nature help you in your new calling to re-educate all those here who are just now getting underway in your heroic journey of the mind. They have in you a noble guide --a "been there, done that" stand-up-kind-of-guy, to emulate. Hasten their exits, Bagger, with your mean streets kind of wisdom about Christianity ...having been down there where they are now ! Those poor, blinded saps.

Help shoulder their loads of superstition, 'til they can one day lay them down by the riverside. Be there for them. Post for them, Bagger. Post ! Turn them from the foolishness that was, for you, as a millstone around your neck -cast off, to a victory -your's- & that you seek to savor here with likeminded others, on this your latest "look at me, everybody !" thread.

*writer throws-up just a little bit into mouth / chokes it back down / continues*

YES ! May your oppressed brothers, in churches far and wide, effortfully moving onward to unbelief; (may) their stories, like your's, in turn become everybit as inspiring to others, endeavoring to travel the same road.

It's hard. It's hard. It's so hard ...to not believe. Gird your loins, soldier, to fight the good fight ...even unto death.

Buddha bless you for the threads you've dutifully offered-up in just this short time with us --a service to your fellows; those advanced seekers ...of the REAL. Selfless...empowering friend. May the counter-truth prevail !

Seriously, Bagger. This is obviously heavy sarcasm aimed at you, but I am doing it JUST IN CASE you REALLY were a believer/trusting in Jesus ...and thus saved, forever, according to God's boundless loving grace toward (and LONG-suffering) with) His own. If you were truly saved, you remain so. Don't run on for a long time. That bears repeating: Don't run on for a long time. You could turn a few years into a decade...or longer, estranged; and you WILL NEVER be happy away from God. Think about how stubbornly long you will, feet-sticking-up, quickly & effortlessly back-slide ---> to your misery ( I assure you; it's coming).

If you have never believed, "retrace your steps back" to the old days; but this time DO THE WORK. Face the problem of evil and the problem of hell, and work it out. HIT IT ! Persevere, man ! It can be done, "enough" -well enough- that you can still follow Jesus with a sound mind and satisfied heart, despite not having these horrendous (admittedly) issues resolved 'to your satisfaction.' In the final analysis, one must/has to give God the benefit of the doubt ...and trust ---> knowing that WE can see next to NOTHING about God's higher ways, thoughts ...an END PLAN, that is justifiable -yes- (even) in the sh--ty world we have / "as is"...are stuck with for now.

This has a pleasingly far-eastern sound to it: "Does the student know more than the teacher ?" I mean to say; are you (am I) really in a position of moral superiority, knowing what is REALLY most merciful, fair...thinking we could have better made and be running the place down here, from down here...and actually have any -ANY- virtue we humans hold dear, in greater abundance or form than the One who made us ?

Fortunately, God does allow us for awhile to entertain the presumptuous notion that we surpass him in go(o)dliness and smarts too ...but He does require that we obey the gospel / humbly receive the gift, so that He may save us, and in the 'working-out part of' salvation (so to speak) keep on putting aside that judgement-in-lack-of-knowledge, of Him, along the way.





*Made you look ! No pearls. I lied.

Forum guidelines for Naturalism state "This forum is strictly for discussions and debates between nontheists only" Please abide by them. Thanks

[yuzuha]

Guess I pretty much started out as an agnostic Buddhist and then grafted on bits of Shinto.

[Ryokan]

Good for you Badger. You worked your way out of the tight shackles of ignorance that others had put you in. You freed your mind; stoicly faced the hard truths, as each came to you, that revealed the fraudulence of all things Christian. "Did you let go, and let Buddha ?" Was he involved at all in "the deal ?"...after the sealing of...? Is he/it anywhere near where you "ended up, a few months ago" ...or did you just accidentally press the wrong key for religious affiliation when you joined-up on TWeb ?

Well, now that all that ugliness is behind you, I wonder: what will you do with the freedom, of sorts, that your hard won transcendence has brought you (?)

Oh...right in front of my face !

You are now here, all over TWeb, helping others de-convert from on high, or shake the weakest of the potentially faithful back down into the disillusionment that is an eventuality if one is an honest-to-self, courageous, intellectual (as we see in you).

BTW; I'm sorry that you suffered so long under Christianity -so long, in your struggle towards the light, to gain that sure foothold on the solid ground of (dare I say ?) THE ultimate truth, of all the "ultimate" kinds.

Which is what again ? I forgot. Enlighten me, Buddy C., because I am not 'a fan' -following your day-by-day, point-by-point, public dismantling of your former faith. What's "new," I mean ?! (Buddhism ?)

Born anew; you stand before us: cooly dispassionate, unflinchingly extending your hand now above and then even into the very flame of cruel logic, itSELF...proud and erect, ready to attend to a new personal cause. Kudos ! For you have clearly again taken a fiery stand for what is right, fundamentally. --> What's TRULY right, this time around; yes ?! *Pearls !

Mother Nature help you in your new calling to re-educate all those here who are just now getting underway in your heroic journey of the mind. They have in you a noble guide --a "been there, done that" stand-up-kind-of-guy, to emulate. Hasten their exits, Bagger, with your mean streets kind of wisdom about Christianity ...having been down there where they are now ! Those poor, blinded saps.

Help shoulder their loads of superstition, 'til they can one day lay them down by the riverside. Be there for them. Post for them, Bagger. Post ! Turn them from the foolishness that was, for you, as a millstone around your neck -cast off, to a victory -your's- & that you seek to savor here with likeminded others, on this your latest "look at me, everybody !" thread.

*writer throws-up just a little bit into mouth / chokes it back down / continues*

YES ! May your oppressed brothers, in churches far and wide, effortfully moving onward to unbelief; (may) their stories, like your's, in turn become everybit as inspiring to others, endeavoring to travel the same road.

It's hard. It's hard. It's so hard ...to not believe. Gird your loins, soldier, to fight the good fight ...even unto death.

Buddha bless you for the threads you've dutifully offered-up in just this short time with us --a service to your fellows; those advanced seekers ...of the REAL. Selfless...empowering friend. May the counter-truth prevail !

Seriously, Bagger. This is obviously heavy sarcasm aimed at you, but I am doing it JUST IN CASE you REALLY were a believer/trusting in Jesus ...and thus saved, forever, according to God's boundless loving grace toward (and LONG-suffering) with) His own. If you were truly saved, you remain so. Don't run on for a long time. That bears repeating: Don't run on for a long time. You could turn a few years into a decade...or longer, estranged; and you WILL NEVER be happy away from God. Think about how stubbornly long you will, feet-sticking-up, quickly & effortlessly back-slide ---> to your misery ( I assure you; it's coming).

If you have never believed, "retrace your steps back" to the old days; but this time DO THE WORK. Face the problem of evil and the problem of hell, and work it out. HIT IT ! Persevere, man ! It can be done, "enough" -well enough- that you can still follow Jesus with a sound mind and satisfied heart, despite not having these horrendous (admittedly) issues resolved 'to your satisfaction.' In the final analysis, one must/has to give God the benefit of the doubt ...and trust ---> knowing that WE can see next to NOTHING about God's higher ways, thoughts ...an END PLAN, that is justifiable -yes- (even) in the sh--ty world we have / "as is"...are stuck with for now.

This has a pleasingly far-eastern sound to it: "Does the student know more than the teacher ?" I mean to say; are you (am I) really in a position of moral superiority, knowing what is REALLY most merciful, fair...thinking we could have better made and be running the place down here, from down here...and actually have any -ANY- virtue we humans hold dear, in greater abundance or form than the One who made us ?

Fortunately, God does allow us for awhile to entertain the presumptuous notion that we surpass him in go(o)dliness and smarts too ...but He does require that we obey the gospel / humbly receive the gift, so that He may save us, and in the 'working-out part of' salvation (so to speak) keep on putting aside that judgement-in-lack-of-knowledge, of Him, along the way.





*Made you look ! No pearls. I lied.
This thread is just for nontheists. Why are you so threatened that some people don't believe what you believe?

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Bagger_Vance]

I simply grew out of christianity. There was far too much deception.

See my above notice.

[TheOneAndOnly]

I went to sunday school every week until I was about 12, but I honestly can't remember ever believing that Jesus was a God. So I would never consider myself an ex-Christian. I still consider myself a cultural Christian though.

[Ryokan]

I went to sunday school every week until I was about 12, but I honestly can't remember ever believing that Jesus was a God. So I would never consider myself an ex-Christian. I still consider myself a cultural Christian though.
I don't know about the UK, but here its hard to not be at least a cultural Christian.

[TheOneAndOnly]

I don't know about the UK, but here its hard to not be at least a cultural Christian.

Well in the US there's that whole Church and State separation thingy. In the UK the CofE pervades public life. The archbishops get seats in the House of Lords (I guess that would be similar to Billy Graham and Pat Robertson getting permanant seats in the senate). They are also in the Queen's privy council.
In my school, and I think this is the same for most primary schools in England, we had to have a religious assembly once a week, which involved singing hymns and some sort of religoius story and a prayer. Although religious attendence in the UK is falling into oblivion, it still has a strong Christian influence.

[Bagger_Vance]

I don't have any problem with Jesus the man and his teaching on certain things. I like the story of Thomas Jefferson's Poor Man's Bible where he edited the Gospels by taking out every reference to Christ as a deity along with every reference to hell. I have to say that is the extent of my admiration of Christ. His teaching on compassion, love, and forgiveness.

[Barry Desborough]

I had a non-religious family background, but was exposed to Anglican(ism?) at school. Went to choir and confirmation classes, became confirmed. Was quite into it, but it was also a break in the extreme tedium of my incarceration in a boarding school. Puberty and science classes put and end to it. I guess my critical thinking kicked in, and science seemed a much better way of making sense of the world.

[FormerFundy]

My whole family, mother, father, brother and myself, were all born-again within about a 3 month period. My father first- he was a 39 year old truck driver. Heavy drinker and smoker. Once he got saved he had all of us attending a Southern Baptist church. My mother got saved, then both my brother and I did. I was 12 years old at the time. My parents enrolled me in a Christian school. So from 7th through 12th grade I attended a conservative Christian school. Upon graduation I entered a Christian college and felt called to preach . I majored in Systematic Theology and graduated summa cum laude with a Bachelor of Arts degree. During my time there, I preached in nursing homes, jails, and Sunday school classes.

Immediately upon graduation, I enrolled in graduate school at Bob Jones University (http://www.bju.edu.) Yes, the notoriously conservative fundamentalist school in Greenville, SC. I finished an M.A. in Theology in 18 months and was accepted into the Ph.D. program. After another 3.5 years, I graduated with a Doctor of Philosophy in Biblical and Historical Theology. BJU has some strange practices but their academic program is rigorous. For the Ph.D. degree, I took over 100 semester hours. Included in this was 24 hours of Greek (I had 12 hours in undergrad) and 12 hours of Hebrew (OT majors had to take more). Upon completion of the classwork, I had to pass an examination in Hebrew, Greek and German (something I had to take for non-credit). After completing the language exams, I had to pass written and oral comprehensive exams. The written exams were 8 hours in duration and the oral exam was 4 hours (before the entire Religion faculty). Then you start the dissertation. I spent nearly 18 months every day in the library (8am to 4pm) researching and writing the dissertation. When it was finished, it was a 326 page document.

Upon graduating with Ph.D., I took a job teaching Bible and Theology in a Bible college (independent Baptist). I was only 26 years old and younger than a number of the students. I taught there for 9 years and became the chairman of their graduate program (they offered a M.A. in Biblical Studies and later a D.Min. for Pastors). During this time, I taught the largest adult sunday school in my church (approx. 100 members), preached in chapel and at various other local churches in the area and beyond.

I would say that about 7 years into my teaching, I began to have some serious doubts. Doubts had come before but I usually swept them under the rug or attributed them to the devil. One of the classes I taught regularly was Christian Apologetics . (I also taught English Bible classes, first, second and third year Greek, Church History, Intro to Philosophy, Christian Ethics, and Systematic Theology). In the Apologetics class, I became more and more convinced that the presuppositionalists were correct (e.g., Cornelius Van Til, John Frame, Gordon Clark, Greg Bahnsen, etc) The presuppositionalists argue that evidence cannot prove Christianity because evidence has to be interpreted and interpretation is not infallible (that is an oversimplification, see http://mywebpages.comcast.net/webpages54/ap/presup.html for more detail). They argue that once one presupposes the truth of Christianity then the evidence supports the truth claim. I found this to be very disturbing because it seemed like "begging the question" to me.

Another question that plagued me was the concept of vicarious atonement. How could it constitute justice for an innocent to be punished in the place of the guilty? I searched and searched but could find no satisfying answer.

Other problems were the fact that it seemed to me that people like Gleason Archer (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties) , Norman Geisler (When Critics Ask?) and Harold Lindsell ( The Battle for the Bible ) were engaging in extreme mental gymnastics to try to defend the inerrancy of Scripture. Yes they could come up with some possible answers to various problems but they seemed contrived to me.

Some other problems were: 1) The fact the evangelical Christianty seemed to only be about 500 years old. Prior to the Reformation, one was hard pressed to see the distinctives of evangelical Christianity present in the church (e.g., salvation by faith alone). 2) The fact that the Bible did not seem to be what one would expect in a divine revelation. There are large sections in the OT that seem to be totally worthless or meaningless to modern Christians (e.g., the genealogies). There were parts of the OT that seemd to present a God drastically different than the God presented in the NT (e.g, killing infants and toddlers). 3) The fact that Christians cannot agree on what the Bible acutally teaches. You have those who believe in a Trinity and those who do not. You have those who believe in salvation by grace through faith and those that do not. YOu have those who insist on the necessity of baptism for salvation and those who do not. You have so many different interpretations and everyone is convinced that they are right. You would think that God would have written a document that was a little clearer, especially on the fundamental doctrines. 4) The problem of evil and the severity of eternal punishment were also major concerns.

Anyway, all of this continued to brew in my mind for several years. All the time I continued teaching and preaching. I distinctly remember one time preaching at a church in El Paso when during the course of the message the thought entered my mind-- you don't really believe this anymore . The thought startled me. I could hardly finish the sermon. I attributed it to the devil trying to destroy my faith.

After a couple of years of struggling with these issues, my faith just seemed to evaporate. There was no crisis or specific instance in which I can remember it crumbling. It just gradually dissipated. I tried to recover it through prayer and more intense study but I just couldn't do it. To be honest, I had to resign my position and go into another field to earn my living. This was very difficult. I was 37 years old and had spent 9 years in college preparing for the ministry. What was I going to do now? I had two small children, a wife, a mortgage and no good options for employment. Fortunately, I was able to start a company with a relative which turned out to be pretty profitable.

I did not announce to my church or college what had happened to my faith. I was a little embarrased and did not know how they would respond. I had an idea, though, that they would say that the devil had taken over my life and I had given in to him. I really did not want to have that discussion with anyone. I also did not want to negatively influence the students that had looked up to me. I was not interested in trying to undermine their faith. I knew it was a very traumatic thing, emotionally and psychologically, to lose your faith. I did not want to expose them to that.

The most difficult in all of this has been my parents and children. My wife has been an unbelievable support. My parents are very sincere in their Christianity and they are now in their seventies. The last thing I would want to do is strip them of their faith at this late stage. Neither are academically inclined and so would not be interested in scholarly discussions of the topics involved. Their faith is a simple one but a very sincere one.

My children were only small when I deconverted. They are now nearly grown. It is hard to explain to children how one can go from being a preacher to an agnostic. They had been in Sunday School and church every Sunday of their lives. They had been in AWANA and Christian summer camps. Both were saved . All of a sudden we went from being regulars at every church service to not going at all. This is difficult for children to understand.

Now that they are bigger, I have had brief discussions with them but nothing too weighty. They seem to understand and I will let them choose their own paths in life, although I encourage them to be skeptical about religion.

Well thats my life story up till now. Hope this is helpful to someone.

[mickiel]

your interferance in this thread shows much to the wise. you cannot stop truth.

Follow the rules Mickiel. You have been warned not to post in Naturalism, and the warning says not to argue about moderation in that thread

[Vivian]

A former Christian...I guess that I am.

I was an active member of a large fundamental Christian Church and although there were some theological problems, it did not concern me much. The biggest problem was the doctrine requiring a blood sacrifice in the physical to solve a problem exsiting in the spiritual. :huh: But in my own spiritual awakening God became more important than who was right and who was wrong, so I let this and other questions slide.

After seven years, one day while studying the NT, I heard a voice that brought me to my knees. For 18 months I called this voice Jesus, and it led me on an awakening that included hours of daily Bible study, visions, dreams, inner awakenings (which I called the Holy Spirit) and a few literal lessons from the voice. Much later I learned what this seemingly miraculous voice was, but meanwhile it opened up the deeper meaning of the scriptures. Of course I was very excited and began to teach what I was learning. At first it all went well, but eventually it became obvious that the church had lost understanding of the Bible, God, and themselves.

And so as the a gulf began to appear between me and those that I loved at church, I stopped attending, not because of any bad treatment received from them, but because I did not want to create negativity between us. It felt important that the love I felt for them remain untouched. If I stayed, I could have become angry, cynical, judgmental, etc etc. And it had become obvious that churches were not necessary for learning the truth of God, in fact they were hindrances.

After separating my mind from Christianity, veils began to fall, leaving me mentally free and I began to see the obvious, in this world, in scripture, about God, His creation and the fall.


viv

Vivian, this forum is for non-theists (those who do not believe in God)

[Soundsurfr]

My whole family, mother, father, brother and myself, were all born-again within about a 3 month period. My father first- he was a 39 year old truck driver. Heavy drinker and smoker. Once he got saved he had all of us attending a Southern Baptist church. My mother got saved, then both my brother and I did. I was 12 years old at the time. My parents enrolled me in a Christian school. So from 7th through 12th grade I attended a conservative Christian school. Upon graduation I entered a Christian college and felt called to preach . I majored in Systematic Theology and graduated summa cum laude with a Bachelor of Arts degree. During my time there, I preached in nursing homes, jails, and Sunday school classes.

Immediately upon graduation, I enrolled in graduate school at Bob Jones University (http://www.bju.edu (http://www.bju.edu/).) Yes, the notoriously conservative fundamentalist school in Greenville, SC. I finished an M.A. in Theology in 18 months and was accepted into the Ph.D. program. After another 3.5 years, I graduated with a Doctor of Philosophy in Biblical and Historical Theology. BJU has some strange practices but their academic program is rigorous. For the Ph.D. degree, I took over 100 semester hours. Included in this was 24 hours of Greek (I had 12 hours in undergrad) and 12 hours of Hebrew (OT majors had to take more). Upon completion of the classwork, I had to pass an examination in Hebrew, Greek and German (something I had to take for non-credit). After completing the language exams, I had to pass written and oral comprehensive exams. The written exams were 8 hours in duration and the oral exam was 4 hours (before the entire Religion faculty). Then you start the dissertation. I spent nearly 18 months every day in the library (8am to 4pm) researching and writing the dissertation. When it was finished, it was a 326 page document.

Upon graduating with Ph.D., I took a job teaching Bible and Theology in a Bible college (independent Baptist). I was only 26 years old and younger than a number of the students. I taught there for 9 years and became the chairman of their graduate program (they offered a M.A. in Biblical Studies and later a D.Min. for Pastors). During this time, I taught the largest adult sunday school in my church (approx. 100 members), preached in chapel and at various other local churches in the area and beyond.

I would say that about 7 years into my teaching, I began to have some serious doubts. Doubts had come before but I usually swept them under the rug or attributed them to the devil. One of the classes I taught regularly was Christian Apologetics . (I also taught English Bible classes, first, second and third year Greek, Church History, Intro to Philosophy, Christian Ethics, and Systematic Theology). In the Apologetics class, I became more and more convinced that the presuppositionalists were correct (e.g., Cornelius Van Til, John Frame, Gordon Clark, Greg Bahnsen, etc) The presuppositionalists argue that evidence cannot prove Christianity because evidence has to be interpreted and interpretation is not infallible (that is an oversimplification, see http://mywebpages.comcast.net/webpages54/ap/presup.html for more detail). They argue that once one presupposes the truth of Christianity then the evidence supports the truth claim. I found this to be very disturbing because it seemed like "begging the question" to me.

Another question that plagued me was the concept of vicarious atonement. How could it constitute justice for an innocent to be punished in the place of the guilty? I searched and searched but could find no satisfying answer.

Other problems were the fact that it seemed to me that people like Gleason Archer (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties) , Norman Geisler (When Critics Ask?) and Harold Lindsell ( The Battle for the Bible ) were engaging in extreme mental gymnastics to try to defend the inerrancy of Scripture. Yes they could come up with some possible answers to various problems but they seemed contrived to me.

Some other problems were: 1) The fact the evangelical Christianty seemed to only be about 500 years old. Prior to the Reformation, one was hard pressed to see the distinctives of evangelical Christianity present in the church (e.g., salvation by faith alone). 2) The fact that the Bible did not seem to be what one would expect in a divine revelation. There are large sections in the OT that seem to be totally worthless or meaningless to modern Christians (e.g., the genealogies). There were parts of the OT that seemd to present a God drastically different than the God presented in the NT (e.g, killing infants and toddlers). 3) The fact that Christians cannot agree on what the Bible acutally teaches. You have those who believe in a Trinity and those who do not. You have those who believe in salvation by grace through faith and those that do not. YOu have those who insist on the necessity of baptism for salvation and those who do not. You have so many different interpretations and everyone is convinced that they are right. You would think that God would have written a document that was a little clearer, especially on the fundamental doctrines. 4) The problem of evil and the severity of eternal punishment were also major concerns.

Anyway, all of this continued to brew in my mind for several years. All the time I continued teaching and preaching. I distinctly remember one time preaching at a church in El Paso when during the course of the message the thought entered my mind-- you don't really believe this anymore . The thought startled me. I could hardly finish the sermon. I attributed it to the devil trying to destroy my faith.

After a couple of years of struggling with these issues, my faith just seemed to evaporate. There was no crisis or specific instance in which I can remember it crumbling. It just gradually dissipated. I tried to recover it through prayer and more intense study but I just couldn't do it. To be honest, I had to resign my position and go into another field to earn my living. This was very difficult. I was 37 years old and had spent 9 years in college preparing for the ministry. What was I going to do now? I had two small children, a wife, a mortgage and no good options for employment. Fortunately, I was able to start a company with a relative which turned out to be pretty profitable.

I did not announce to my church or college what had happened to my faith. I was a little embarrased and did not know how they would respond. I had an idea, though, that they would say that the devil had taken over my life and I had given in to him. I really did not want to have that discussion with anyone. I also did not want to negatively influence the students that had looked up to me. I was not interested in trying to undermine their faith. I knew it was a very traumatic thing, emotionally and psychologically, to lose your faith. I did not want to expose them to that.

The most difficult in all of this has been my parents and children. My wife has been an unbelievable support. My parents are very sincere in their Christianity and they are now in their seventies. The last thing I would want to do is strip them of their faith at this late stage. Neither are academically inclined and so would not be interested in scholarly discussions of the topics involved. Their faith is a simple one but a very sincere one.

My children were only small when I deconverted. They are now nearly grown. It is hard to explain to children how one can go from being a preacher to an agnostic. They had been in Sunday School and church every Sunday of their lives. They had been in AWANA and Christian summer camps. Both were saved . All of a sudden we went from being regulars at every church service to not going at all. This is difficult for children to understand.

Now that they are bigger, I have had brief discussions with them but nothing too weighty. They seem to understand and I will let them choose their own paths in life, although I encourage them to be skeptical about religion.

Well thats my life story up till now. Hope this is helpful to someone.

Wow. Incredible story. Mine is similar but not half as intense.

Roman Catholic upbringing. Went to parochial grammar school (thought anybody who didn't was sort of odd) and was terrorized by nuns for 8 years, but remained very devout and fearful of God. Then 4 years of RC high school where I began to question things - specifically vicarious atonement and the problem of evil. Later began to be skeptical of the motives and practices of my teachers, many of whom were just miserable people. Became a voracious reader of all things philosophical, both religious and secular.

Resolved that the real answer to life's biggest questions is pretty much always: "Not enough data."

Continue to explore Buddhism, which in practice is at times exquisitely beautiful, rational, compassionate and effective in practice, but has some goofy stuff attached. I tend to see Christianity and Islam as the opposite, primarily bizarre and nonsensical with sporadic exquisitely beautiful stuff attached.

I guess you could call me agnostic, as I do not deny the possibility of a god, but I prefer atheist, as I entertain no real belief in any deity.

[mentored1]

I don't have any problem with Jesus the man and his teaching on certain things. I like the story of Thomas Jefferson's Poor Man's Bible where he edited the Gospels by taking out every reference to Christ as a deity along with every reference to hell. I have to say that is the extent of my admiration of Christ. His teaching on compassion, love, and forgiveness.

I certainly have to agree that those teachings would not be bad for a society to model laws and behavior on...

There my questioning of knowledge enters the picture... Even those "benevolent" teachings require their "manevolant" counterparts to be comprehended fully... One of the issues I brought up regarding the doctrine of Heaven / Hell is the absence of Good/Light in Hell and the absence of Sin/Darkness in Heaven... How could Heaven be conceived as only "good" without the comparison of "evil"; in Hell how would you know it was "evil" and "hellish" without the good and heavenly?

It's the whole fantasy of the utopian society: if we're all on the same page with the same values.... I shudder to think of such a nightmare... :egad:

Thankfully I don't know if it's possible...

Later Vance

[BlackOpal12]

I was raised Methodist, and have attended a Catholic (Jesuit) college for 3 years now - I converted to Buddhism after deciding upon a degree in theological studies. While this might seem counterintuitive, the deeper research into both theology and theological standpoints drove me very far away from the basis of the religion, which I maintain has been misinterpreted and misused since its inception. I found Buddhism, studied it, TA a course on it, and now I practice it. It makes me smile.

[rach12]

I was raised by a Catholic mother and Buddhist father and split my time between the two on Sundays. I went to catechism, was baptised, confirmed, and had my first communion only because it was important to my mother.

I don't ever remember a time when I was convinced there was a god. I thought maybe it was possible, and so I prayed and was a good Catholic girl. I think what initiated my deconversion was the idea that people, no matter how good, unless they believed in god/Jesus/whatever, were bound for hell. That meant my father was bound for hell. I simply could not reconcile a god who loved "His children as a father does" with one who was vengeful enough to send good people to Hell. Christianity made no logical sense to me.

As I reached my teens, I had no use for religion, I found it silly and inane, and when my parents told me I was old enough to choose to go or not go to church, I never went back - except on holidays and such as a favor to my mom.

It wasn't until I started posting on messageboards and discussing religion that I realized I was no longer a Christian. At first, I considered myself agnostic, but after more thought, I found that god was as real to me as Santa Claus. I do not believe anything is 'supernatural,' but do not rule out the unexplained - we're simply lacking the knowledge to understand everything at this point in time.

[Green]

According to most people, I think, I used to be a Christian, and I would have answered an unequivocal ‘yes’ before I started learning about Christian apologetics.

At some point at the age of ten or eleven on an otherwise un-extraordinary Sunday, sitting in church, I ‘realized’ that God and Jesus were pretty much the adult version of Santa Claus. Thinking back to it now, I imagine some sort of grand enlightenment event with halos and attendant angels, probably because I am glad that it happened for some reason. In reality though, it was more like suddenly figuring out a complicated math problem while brushing one’s teeth, the answer just leaps out of the subconscious without exhortation.

I had never thought to question God’s or Jesus’ existence or deity; I just believed what they told me in Sunday school and church, which I attended since around 6 yrs and birth, respectively. I was baptized, had been taking communion, and received the sacrament of reconciliation and had never really had any aversion to any particular doctrine or practice except that I didn’t like the taste of wine. It all made sense at the time; I prayed for help and thanked God for good fortune and the like, and was otherwise a typical (as far as I know) Christian child. I have never believed in Santa Claus, though I didn’t tell my parents that. I can’t say why the conclusion that God and Santa Claus were of the same mould leapt into my head, except that perhaps it had something to do with the fact that I was sitting in a different part of the church than usual that Sunday.

The point of the story is that while I certainly thought that the Christianity was true, it was only because I had never considered the possibility that it was not. Upon my ‘realization’, there really wasn’t much debate in my mind. I probably thought about it a little, but the issue was officially settled before mass was over. According to some the people I have seen arguing about who and who is not a true Christian, I don’t think I would have qualified; I am inclined to agree, but it is not much of an issue for me. I never fought doubt, or struggled with my faith, or anything of that sort, and so never ‘earned my stripes’ as a Christian. I am not sure how common my conversion from Christianity to atheism was, but my completely uneducated guess is that a fair number of atheists that come from a Christian background have similar story, and that it may not even be uncommon the other way around.

I am glad that I got it over with quickly and easily, but I admire the strength of those that have had a tough time with it, switching from anything to whatever it was is that they genuinely feel is truth.



I found Buddhism, studied it, TA a course on it, and now I practice it. It makes me smile.

I think I may currently be somewhere (near the beginning) of a similar journey. I don't want to derail this thread, but could you recommend some material for the 'study it' part? PM is fine. Thanks.

[Matthew]

I consider myself a former Christian. I don't like to discuss this with Christians because I can't always avoid the "eternity security" crowd. And even with other Christians, as soon as they find out that I no longer believe, it seems like the vast majority of them cannot resist the temptation to play "spiritual psychiatrist" in an attempt to fix my mental/spiritual wiring and bring me back into the fold. For those who believe a person can lose one's salvation- I just quote Hebrew 6:4-6 and tell them that even if I wanted to go back (which I wouldn't in a billion years) I couldn't. As for the former crowd, I just tell them that I'm just not interested.

I needn't rehash my story here because there is a thread which I posted my deconversion story. Needless to say it was biblical errancy which finally did my faith in. It wasn't something that I was desperately trying to cling onto which was just tugged hopeless from me. I had a disappointing feeling of resignation that I was doomed to serve a God who was difficult to please and impossible to get into contact with and one who I felt just didn't give a rat's patoot if I was in anguish or not.

The thing is, I wish I had followed the path of FormerFundy. He seems to have followed a similar path that Robert M Price and perhaps Gerd Ludemann and Michael Goulder have followed. When I left, it was because it was time for me to get out, if for nothing else- survival's sake!

Matthew

[Doubting John]

My deconversion story can be found in the thread "ex-christian testimonies" here on TWEB.

Most of you know I wrote a book about it and the link is in my signature below. Here are some recommendations for my book below (please don't assail me for quoting them, I'm just pretty excited about them, that's all).:

"For years I have been saying that Christian apologetics is answering questions no one is asking. Scholarly unbelief is far more sophisticated, far more defensible than any of us would like to believe. John Loftus is a scholar and a former Christian who was overwhelmed by that sophistication and damaged irreparably by the inadequate apologetics he had at his disposal. His story is a wake up call to the church: it’s time for us to start living in, and speaking to, the real world.” Dr. James Sennett, Christian philosopher and author of Modality, Probability, and Rationality: A Critical Examination of Alvin Plantinga's Philosophy, and This Much I Know: A Post-Modern Apologetic (Forthcoming).

As a former fundamentalist minister who has followed a similar path from apostle to apostate—though mine led to atheism—I empathize completely with the deep struggle Loftus had to make in order to shed his former cherished beliefs. I respect his scholarship, but more than that, I admire his courage. There are many treasures in this book, as well as provocative and controversial arguments, all presented with a crystal-clear and brutal honesty that is rare in religious scholarship. Loftus is a true freethinker, willing to follow the facts wherever they happen to lead. Dan Barker, author of Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist. http://www.ffrf.org.

“John Loftus is a former conservative Christian who at some point admitted that he could no longer honestly use the term ‘Christian’ to describe his present beliefs or state of mind. His book is a clear, honest and concise summary of some of the questions he encountered along his spiritual, theological and philosophical journey. John's experience not only parallels that of other individuals but also parallels the experience of entire seminaries over the centuries that were once founded to promote conservative Christian views. John's book demonstrates to many who are having doubts, that there are others out there like him. There are probably a lot more unspoken doubts going on in the Christian world than anyone cares to personally relate. Edward T. Babinski (author of Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists. http://www.edwardtbabinski.us)


“I find John’s book a well balanced, honest and succinct examination of orthodox Christian beliefs that I would highly recommend to anyone seeking the understanding of the foundations of Christianity. Harry Noetzel, Ph.D.


“This book is an absolute “must have” for anyone who has left the Christian faith or is having serious intellectual doubts about the Christian religion. While the book starts out explaining some of his experiential reasons for leaving Christianity, the volume goes far beyond a mere personal testimony and dives deeply into the elemental contradictions of Christianity. The plethora of scholarly works referenced in this publication places it amongst the better resources for the honest student. Loftus deals evenly with the issues, carefully explaining the strengths and weaknesses of each argument. Loftus’ coverage of the problems inherent in the claims of Christianity is comprehensive. Much of what he wrote sounds like an echo of many of my own introspections except expressed through the well oiled mind of an academia.” David Allen Pyle, webmaster for www.ex-christian.net.

Personal advertising of this sort is not allowed. Thanks for cooperating.Pilgrim :pilgrim:

[Mark Little]

For me it was the PoE and the doctrine of Hell that sealed the deal. What was it for you guys?I can't say I was ever a Christian in the strictest sense, but I did go to Sunday School/Church and listened to the teachings and sermons.

Even as a child, I had trouble with the whole concept of an ultimately powerful personal god who created the world, but was too dense to keep evil out, even after he had to destroy nearly all the people because of that evil, but the next time he goes toe-to-toe with evil he is going to win and wipe evil out (except to allow him to make all the sinners burn in hell forever). The trinity thing was always wierd to me. I sort of figured that the "Holy Ghost" was a female thing since I understood to have a son, there must have been a mother and that must have been it. I was told in no uncertain terms that god didn't have any female aspects which I thought was odd.

However, I was prepared to give it a go and when I heard a story about some dude who wanted a sign from god and he threw a sheep skin out and the dew didn't form on it. I thought "Well, God hasn't spoken to me directly when I asked if he could help me believe, perhaps this will work."

At the tender age of nine, I prayed to god with all my childhood sincerity and threw a household rug outside. In the morning, it was soaking wet and I got a thrashing. I had my sign.:lol:

The subsequent 40+ years have not produced any credible evidence for anything spiritual, let alone for a whacky god that has to have his son executed so that he can forgive people their sins.

[trashy]

I grew up Southern Baptist, went to a conservative baptist college studying for the ministry. Unlike FormerFundy I was much too lazy for academics and nearly died when a counselor took my 1st semester 15-hour schedule and added 3 hours of Intro to Greek on top of it. I dropped the Greek by week 4 and stuck with Strong's concordance instead. Got married, dropped out of college after 2.5 years. Divorced after 7 years of marriage and 3 kids. 2 years of drugs. Back into church, this time a mild Charismatic Nazarene church. Left there to lead praise and worship at a medium-sized non-denominational church. Did so for 5 years. We burned out and just flat stopped attending. During this period I went from inerrantist charismatic to just inerrantist to Preterist to agnostic to atheist (over about 5 years). My main turning point was when I applied the Preterist idea of symbolic language to the Flood, exploring the possibility of local vs. global. I finally determined that it was neither and the rest of scripture soon crumbled.

That's the 'Cliff Notes' version. :ahem:

[Tween]

At last... others like Tween! I was a "Born again" for many years, having asked Christ into my life and all that, I tried to convince friends and family that they were going to hell etc. I have posted the questions which caused me to lose my religion on another board, but that was apparently only for Christians.

For me, I also could not find God in Christianity, I discovered my own understanding of God through an experience that had nothing to do with the Bible or Church. Now it all makes sense! Christ taught that we should seek and we shall find, not blindly accept even though intellectually none of it makes sense. I don't think that God would ever expect us to believe the unbelievable.
These are just some of the examples of senseless theology, which caused me to start searching for my truth:
The Trinity (even Christians can't make sense of that one)
The physical resurection of the body (rather holey, and full of worms singing in the choir of eternity)
Once off atonement for sin (When the universe perpetually demonstrates the truth of life death and resurrection)
The fact that the God of the OT and NT shows himself to be two (maybe even more) different people
God is male, and Father (Do we not need God the Mother, or is God an hermaphrodite?)

Anyway these are just some of the issues that have changed my life from darkness to light

Hope to hear other stories

Love

Tween

[Bagger_Vance]

I remember distinctly one event that helped me on my journey. It was during my gradual slide from inerrancy to errancy. I had all but abandoned defending the Old Testament and hell. I was struggling alot with doubt. Basically I was trying to will myself to faith. There was no faith sustaining me at all. So here I was thinking that the devil was warring with me. Yes I actually believed in the devil as a real live being that meddled in my affairs. So anyway I was trying to hold on to my faith in defiance of this devil and I was worried that he was tricking me. After reading and re-reading The Screwtape Letters(great book) I was convinced that the demons had tricked me into sliding into hell with no fuss. I was losing sleep over this and not eating. Then I had a dream about hell. I dreamed that I had been sent to hell. I saw Hitler and Stalin and a bunch of other big name killers. I woke up and I was shocked that I wasn't scared. I realized how absurd all of it was. I felt free really. The notion of actually being sent to some eternal prison just seemed insane to me at that point. I really felt that I was played by the adults in my life. I was scared into believing it. I wasn't living by the bible for love or morality but to stay out of hell. I was afraid and so were my friends. We were told from a very young age that we would go to hell if we didn't believe. It wasn't long after that I was a quaker and not long after that until I was just agnostic.

[Dig Deep]

I'm new to this website and was fascinated by your story, Former Fundy, largely because it has so many similarities to mine. I can appreciate virtually everything you related. In the extent of our formal education and involvement in ministry/teaching, most of the other participants might not be able to grasp our experience, but I know many have come a similar path, and experienced the same basic things.

From that talk of "experience" I'll shift to the rational/analytical side of issues of faith. I was always fairly intellectual and very curious. Raised in a conservative Christian family and church, I was "saved" around six, and became a serious Bible student by 15 or so, began witnessing, etc. I went to Biola University here on the "left coast." Then on to Talbot School of Theology for an M.Div., and back to Biola for a MA in Marriage, Family, and Child Counseling, which I practiced for 10 years. I was also heavily involved with apologetics, esp. under Dr. Walter Martin for 4 years, leading his research and writing department for a year, after seminary. During that period, and after, I encountered nearly every kind of major challenge to Christianity. I thought they all had good answers at the time, and I doled them out.

We (Martin's Christian Research Inst.) were right down the street from Dr. John W. Montgomery; Josh McDowell, as a Talbot grad, came around on occasion; I conversed w/ Norm Geisler and a few other such notables during those years or prior, and so on. This to give you a flavor of my immersion and affiliations--my exposure to top level apologetics. In retrospect, it's fair to say I became smug. And it would be many more years before I questioned anything at the core of Evangelical theology. You put your finger on what I consider the main reason very few with extensive education and involvement in the Evangelical/Fundamentalist world leave, despite doubts that often crop up--it's too hard to even let oneself question deeply, and too threatening to important relationships, one's own ego, etc., let alone having to deal with possible spiritual fears, which you mentioned--Satan's deception, being damned, etc.

Well, during years of practicing Christian-based counseling, I also went further into apologetics, teaching Schaeffer and Christian worldview as well as psychology from a Christian perspective. I was also still into biblical and theological studies, and decided I wanted to get a Ph.D., but from a school w/ a broader perspective. I got into Claremont School of Theology (progressive/Process Theology bastion of Methodism and liberal Protestantism). The program was "Theology and Personality [psychology] with Emphasis in Religious Education." Like BJU, very academically rigorous. It actually had a good number of conservative students in the Ph.D., as well as other programs, some even more conservative than I. I was there part-time for 4 years, finishing the coursework, tho I got derailed and never finished the dissertation and exams.

It wasn't primarily the liberal exposure at Claremont that convinced me Evangelicalism had gotten critical things seriously wrong, but I know the experience helped open me. (It wan't till about a year after leaving that I became convinced, on rational, theological bases, that I needed a new brand of faith.) For one, I realized that I had created caricatures (with a lot of help from things Evangelicals wrote and my profs and friends said) of liberals and "liberalism." They hardly resembled, at least at Claremont, what I'd come to expect. Rather, they tended to be consistent in applying "tolerance" (better put as inclusiveness, tho with limits), being respectful of me and my views, as well as other conservatives. They were seemingly as devout and spiritually minded as Evangelicals. They liked to pray, worship, etc. But their theology was clearly very different and they were comfortable in it, and excited. (None of which makes it right, of course--for the still-Evangelicals looking in.)

I'll cut the story short, but share a couple of the key points that finally convinced me I'd been perceiving and interpreting things poorly all those years. First, it was largely theological. With enough exposure and reading, one does tend to realize the "differing interpretations" point you made is a critical tip-off. It indicates just what you emphasized, that there is little true clarity or "simplicity" in "The Gospel." The "faith once for all delivered..." is wishful thinking--a backwards extrapolation, and not identifiable in the NT. Objectively read, the NT authors are seen to differ significantly, many of them particularly out to defend their brand of orthodoxy, which is actually impossible to fully ascertain without creating a patchwork theology of many authors by "cutting and pasting" (and Jefferson is often ridiculed for an only slightly crasser form of the same).

As you imply, the only viable conclusion is scripture (the OT as well) is a fascinating, profound, often inspirational human creation, but only that. I also systematically re-examined the supposed evidences for inspiration, Messianic prophecy (and others) being fulfilled, an historical basis for the resurrection, etc., etc., and realized how there was no real substance there, but rather, a strong base of tradition that is tough to see around, partly because it started being built up during and right after the writing of the NT. I came to see that "apostolic authority" in relation to NT books was merely an invention of the proto-orthodox not long after the completion of works that would be eventually canonized.

So a realization of there being no evidence for a Holy Spirit-guided process of recognition of authoritative books--NT or OT--was another key point. There was no reason to take a given book or set of books (e.g., the four Gospels), as uniquely revealed or inspired above other writings of the same periods. There were plenty of other writings, as well, though we have few early-enough copies to clearly establish dating, just as for most of the NT books. I can't go into specifics here, but I continue to study Christian origins and NT scholarship, and the more I do, the stronger and stronger is the confirmation of the clear insights I began to get about the nature of scripture and the earliest Church, around 11 years ago. (Like you, I have more detail written up, & more yet to come, at GoodNewsBetterNews.com.)

There are a lot more aspects of insights, historical and literary data (e.g., literary analysis and comparison of the NT w/ intertestamental Jewish works, Greek hero stories, Cynic philosophy, Philo, etc.), scientific and archeological data, etc. that went into my changing conclusions. It surely helped that knowledge of psychology, sociology, and anthropology, and even some theoretical physics and astronomy, made it easier for me than the typical Bible student to see that there were very good (not just get-by type) alternate explanations for conversion experiences, Christian growth dynamics (not taking out, in my view, all spirit/Spirit elements), Christian origins, etc. I think I made sure every important category was covered before I was willing to conclude there was neither good evidence for nor any real need to hold to an Evangelical or "historic Christian faith" kind of theology.

Anyway, thanks, Former Fundy, for your courage and intellectual honesty in what you did years ago, and in sharing it with us. I know there are more like you "out there," but I encounter very few who share the kind of background with me that you do, and I hope we can "meet" and collaborate more in the future.

Gratefully and Respectfully,

Dig Deep

[n0rstar]

My parents raised me to be open minded about religion and to make my own choice, which led me to venturing off to many diffrent churches and hearing many diffrent point of views.

When I was in Bristol TN at Job Corps, The Born Again phase swept through about my 6th month in, and some of my friends jumped fence real quik and became Born Again. All they would talk about was waiting for death, they couldn't wait to die so they could go to heaven. I studied some and listened to them ramble on but I was always suspect, cause what they said didn't make sense to me.

When I moved to Chattanooga TN I began going to Baptist Church, and that was a disaster! I remeber pointing out Matthew 6:5-6 to a preacher who LOVED to be seen preaching everywhere he went. He said Jesus was talking about the drug dealers, not about people like him. I became suspect of this.

Next I studied the bible to myself, writting off Churches as a money pitt full of hypocrites. My Girlfriend of 2 years went back to being a JW which I was cool with, but the bad part was, I had to be JW also, thats when I began speaking out about the bible, even though with limited education in the bible I was able to point out passages that I found to dispell the JW ideals.

So when I left her and went to NJ I went to a Kingdom Hall to learn JW inside and out so that I would be able to attack it later in life. I wasn't allowed to go out "Witnessing" unless I bought a suit, it was frowned upon for me to show up in my work clothes. So I bought a Suit and stopped working early enough to get home, shower and go to the meetings. I lived by all their rules, I didn't smoke, curse, I humbled myself and spread the message to all my friends, and I hated every moment of it.

As a JW I studied the bible 2-3hrs a day 6 days a week, with 5 days going to the Hall for various meetings. I learned more about the bible then I could have ever imagined, I learned so much I was able to notice contridictions in the passages, I could notice they were taken passages out of context, taken non-secular sources out of context to make it appear that even Scientists agreed with them, When I went to the District Meeting (We rented Vetrans Stadium the Old Phillied Stadium) and people came from ALL OVER to come to this 3 day meeting. Every day several times a day who ever the speaker was would make mention about how good we were, and how good the people speak of us, and how polite we are. There was nothing Humble about it. When the overseer came over for my Bible Study as I was now an UnBaptised Witness, some of the things he was telling me about Jesus I didn't agree with and showed him why I didn't agree with them, and he tryed maken sense of it to me, but he was again taken scriptures out of context, so I told him flat out it was a contradiction, he said there are no contradictions in the bible. SO I pointed a few out to him that had him stupafied, he said I was looking for error.

That was the end of my Faith. I asked him to leave my house and I never been back to any Church or had a believer make any solid evidences to me. It took me awhile to come to the conclusion that there is no God, but rather a set of natural laws, CHemists are all to familier with these natural laws, so I became agnostic in the sense that God isn't something we can see or hear, but is around us at all times, God to me is nothing more the laws of mathmatics.

[BeHereNow]

Yep, full-fledged charismatic Christian. My dream was to become the next Peter. I was constantly reading the Bible or affiliated literature, praying, ready to talk to people about my beliefs. How naive and simplistic I was then (not to imply that all Christians are).

[FormerFundy]

I'm new to this website and was fascinated by your story, Former Fundy, largely because it has so many similarities to mine. I can appreciate virtually everything you related. In the extent of our formal education and involvement in ministry/teaching, most of the other participants might not be able to grasp our experience, but I know many have come a similar path, and experienced the same basic things.

From that talk of "experience" I'll shift to the rational/analytical side of issues of faith. I was always fairly intellectual and very curious. Raised in a conservative Christian family and church, I was "saved" around six, and became a serious Bible student by 15 or so, began witnessing, etc. I went to Biola University here on the "left coast." Then on to Talbot School of Theology for an M.Div., and back to Biola for a MA in Marriage, Family, and Child Counseling, which I practiced for 10 years. I was also heavily involved with apologetics, esp. under Dr. Walter Martin for 4 years, leading his research and writing department for a year, after seminary. During that period, and after, I encountered nearly every kind of major challenge to Christianity. I thought they all had good answers at the time, and I doled them out.

We (Martin's Christian Research Inst.) were right down the street from Dr. John W. Montgomery; Josh McDowell, as a Talbot grad, came around on occasion; I conversed w/ Norm Geisler and a few other such notables during those years or prior, and so on. This to give you a flavor of my immersion and affiliations--my exposure to top level apologetics. In retrospect, it's fair to say I became smug. And it would be many more years before I questioned anything at the core of Evangelical theology. You put your finger on what I consider the main reason very few with extensive education and involvement in the Evangelical/Fundamentalist world leave, despite doubts that often crop up--it's too hard to even let oneself question deeply, and too threatening to important relationships, one's own ego, etc., let alone having to deal with possible spiritual fears, which you mentioned--Satan's deception, being damned, etc.

Well, during years of practicing Christian-based counseling, I also went further into apologetics, teaching Schaeffer and Christian worldview as well as psychology from a Christian perspective. I was also still into biblical and theological studies, and decided I wanted to get a Ph.D., but from a school w/ a broader perspective. I got into Claremont School of Theology (progressive/Process Theology bastion of Methodism and liberal Protestantism). The program was "Theology and Personality [psychology] with Emphasis in Religious Education." Like BJU, very academically rigorous. It actually had a good number of conservative students in the Ph.D., as well as other programs, some even more conservative than I. I was there part-time for 4 years, finishing the coursework, tho I got derailed and never finished the dissertation and exams.

It wasn't primarily the liberal exposure at Claremont that convinced me Evangelicalism had gotten critical things seriously wrong, but I know the experience helped open me. (It wan't till about a year after leaving that I became convinced, on rational, theological bases, that I needed a new brand of faith.) For one, I realized that I had created caricatures (with a lot of help from things Evangelicals wrote and my profs and friends said) of liberals and "liberalism." They hardly resembled, at least at Claremont, what I'd come to expect. Rather, they tended to be consistent in applying "tolerance" (better put as inclusiveness, tho with limits), being respectful of me and my views, as well as other conservatives. They were seemingly as devout and spiritually minded as Evangelicals. They liked to pray, worship, etc. But their theology was clearly very different and they were comfortable in it, and excited. (None of which makes it right, of course--for the still-Evangelicals looking in.)

I'll cut the story short, but share a couple of the key points that finally convinced me I'd been perceiving and interpreting things poorly all those years. First, it was largely theological. With enough exposure and reading, one does tend to realize the "differing interpretations" point you made is a critical tip-off. It indicates just what you emphasized, that there is little true clarity or "simplicity" in "The Gospel." The "faith once for all delivered..." is wishful thinking--a backwards extrapolation, and not identifiable in the NT. Objectively read, the NT authors are seen to differ significantly, many of them particularly out to defend their brand of orthodoxy, which is actually impossible to fully ascertain without creating a patchwork theology of many authors by "cutting and pasting" (and Jefferson is often ridiculed for an only slightly crasser form of the same).

As you imply, the only viable conclusion is scripture (the OT as well) is a fascinating, profound, often inspirational human creation, but only that. I also systematically re-examined the supposed evidences for inspiration, Messianic prophecy (and others) being fulfilled, an historical basis for the resurrection, etc., etc., and realized how there was no real substance there, but rather, a strong base of tradition that is tough to see around, partly because it started being built up during and right after the writing of the NT. I came to see that "apostolic authority" in relation to NT books was merely an invention of the proto-orthodox not long after the completion of works that would be eventually canonized.

So a realization of there being no evidence for a Holy Spirit-guided process of recognition of authoritative books--NT or OT--was another key point. There was no reason to take a given book or set of books (e.g., the four Gospels), as uniquely revealed or inspired above other writings of the same periods. There were plenty of other writings, as well, though we have few early-enough copies to clearly establish dating, just as for most of the NT books. I can't go into specifics here, but I continue to study Christian origins and NT scholarship, and the more I do, the stronger and stronger is the confirmation of the clear insights I began to get about the nature of scripture and the earliest Church, around 11 years ago. (Like you, I have more detail written up, & more yet to come, at GoodNewsBetterNews.com.)

There are a lot more aspects of insights, historical and literary data (e.g., literary analysis and comparison of the NT w/ intertestamental Jewish works, Greek hero stories, Cynic philosophy, Philo, etc.), scientific and archeological data, etc. that went into my changing conclusions. It surely helped that knowledge of psychology, sociology, and anthropology, and even some theoretical physics and astronomy, made it easier for me than the typical Bible student to see that there were very good (not just get-by type) alternate explanations for conversion experiences, Christian growth dynamics (not taking out, in my view, all spirit/Spirit elements), Christian origins, etc. I think I made sure every important category was covered before I was willing to conclude there was neither good evidence for nor any real need to hold to an Evangelical or "historic Christian faith" kind of theology.

Anyway, thanks, Former Fundy, for your courage and intellectual honesty in what you did years ago, and in sharing it with us. I know there are more like you "out there," but I encounter very few who share the kind of background with me that you do, and I hope we can "meet" and collaborate more in the future.

Gratefully and Respectfully,

Dig Deep

Dig Deep,

Fascinating story. I "thank God" for the internet. Before the advent of the internet, it was easy to think that you were the only one who had the kinds of experiences that we had. Now it appears that there are many like us.

Look forward to more postings from you.

[Doubting John]

Dig Deep,

Fascinating story. I "thank God" for the internet. Before the advent of the internet, it was easy to think that you were the only one who had the kinds of experiences that we had. Now it appears that there are many like us.

Look forward to more postings from you.

FormerFundy, and Dig Deep. Join us!

[Minnesota]

Baptized Mormon. Confirmed Lutheran. Awakened agnostic.

[testallargument]

Hello everybody

For what it's worth , here it goes .............

I started my religious experience as a Christian in my early teens . I was heavily involved in the “Messianic” movement , which can be described as Christianity with the outward trappings of Judaism ( Mostly a large group of Gentiles who are Jewish wannabes , wannabes that call their church a “synagogue “ and pretend to be Jewish ) .

Now in my early thirties I look back and I just shake my head at how utterly confused I was . I can’t really put my finger on the calendar and tell you when I left Christianity / Religion . The internet contributed a lot to my new way of looking at things , due to the abundance of information found on the web .

I still have some serious emotional and psychological scars caused by the loss of my faith . It’s practically destroyed my life , up to this point . At the age of 22 , after serving 4 years in the US Army , I returned home and got a Job , enrolled at the community college .etc What most young men do when they finish their tour in the service . I also found a Church and thought I was on the right track spiritually , I felt really close to what I believed was God .

Then I got on the internet and found Jews for Judaism and Rabbi Tovia Singer’s “Outreach Judaism” and the “Jerusalem Institute For Biblical Polemics “ . Their arguments contra Christianity were very powerful , practically irrefutable . I read all of the arguments pro et con and eventually came to the conclusion that they were right , BUT I just couldn’t deny Jesus / Yeshua . I was emotionally attached to these mental archetypes and beliefs , I just couldn’t reject them and move on .

A lot of it stems from fear . Maybe I’m wrong , even though my brain tells me these Jewish anti-missionaries are right , my “heart” tells me “maybe they’re wrong and if that’s the case , you might end up in hell “ . Maybe I’m being deceived by Satan ( I would see the church lady from Saturday Night Live saying " hmmmm who do you think it is ? hmmm ? maybe it's....((((( Satan ))))) " )

I eventually gave up on the Bible all together and converted to Islam . Yep , I was desperate , confused . I was a Muslim for about 2 years ( found it to be just as flawed as Christianity and Judaism ) .


There are certain things I experienced while I was a Christian that I can’t explain . However , I’m open to the possibility that these events I witnessed are the product of the mind , consciousness . Maybe faith it self , belief , has the power to manifest certain phenomena that are for all intensive purposes , inexplicable , beyond our current scientific knowledge . That’s not to say that in the future we won’t find an answer , an answer that will not necessarily be “super-natural “ .

I’m not omniscient , I don’t know everything , hence I will not form an opinion either way . I will just say I don’t know . I’m an agnostic , I don’t presume to know the answer as to whether there is or isn’t an Intelligentsia Prima ( Prime Intelligence ) responsible for everything .

Religion ruined my youth , my life . I’ve wasted a lot of years being depressed . No ambition , no desire to do anything constructive with my life . Self loathing and hate , guilt , a sense of worthlessness .


I had a nervous breakdown a couple of years ago , lived in a VA homeless shelter for almost a year . I was eventually admitted into a state psychiatric ward and diagnosed with a depressive disorder . I’m currently suppose to be on medication for that ( I need to start taking it again , I’m trying be “normal” , unfortunately I now realize I need the medication ) .

I’m completely dysfunctional , to the point where the VA sends me a check every month . I’m not proud of that and I’m working towards changing that now . I’m currently living in Central America and I’m planning to open a English School for Taxi drivers ( they all want to learn English ! ) . I wont need the VA money after that gets off the ground ( I‘m being optimistic ) .

I live in a Hotel , and I stay in my room for days , sometimes weeks at a time ( the Hotel receptionists call me “ El Austronauta “ which in Spanish means “ The Astronaut “) . I have my room full of books , that’s really all I do , read and ..read - and listen to the Art Bell show:outtie: .... ( small fridge and microwave at arms length from the computer - Fig Newtons and a carton of milk . It’s my capsule , it keeps me safe and sound . Yeah …) . That’s what religion left me with ( Fig Newtons and a carton of milk ) . I know I might be giving everyone a bit to much info , but maybe there’s somebody else going through something similar , you’re not alone .

Hopefully I’ll kick this before I get to old .

[Bagger_Vance]

testallargument,

That is a great post. Hopefully you can work through the disillusion and depression. I encourage the medication if you can grab it.

[mpb1]

Because I'm a believer, I realize the moderator may remove my post, though I hope not :)

I stumbled upon this site tonight, and read this thread with absolute fascination (not to mention sadness and a little doubt and fear, I have to admit). I'm a believer, and I was wondering if FormerFundy and DigDeep would be willing to debate someone online - possibly one of the apologists from Stand To Reason (a sister ministry of TheologyWeb, from what I understand).

I just posted a link to THIS thread here: www.evangelismforum.com/index.php?topic=119.msg185;topicseen#msg185
at a fairly new site where I'm the admin: www.EvangelismForum.com ...hoping to get some feedback - since the arguments from FormerFundy and DigDeep are worth discussing. I haven't contacted Stand To Reason, but I hope someone there will consider a debate. It would be a VERY interesting discussion!

[Bagger_Vance]

Because I'm a believer, I realize the moderator may remove my post, though I hope not :)

I stumbled upon this site tonight, and read this thread with absolute fascination (not to mention sadness and a little doubt and fear, I have to admit). I'm a believer, and I was wondering if FormerFundy and DigDeep would be willing to debate someone online - possibly one of the apologists from Stand To Reason (a sister ministry of TheologyWeb, from what I understand).

I just posted a link to THIS thread here: www.evangelismforum.com/index.php?topic=119.msg185;topicseen#msg185
at a fairly new site where I'm the admin: www.EvangelismForum.com ...hoping to get some feedback - since the arguments from FormerFundy and DigDeep are worth discussing. I haven't contacted Stand To Reason, but I hope someone there will consider a debate. It would be a VERY interesting discussion!

If they do decide to delete your post you can PM both individuals with your request. I'd sure love to see the debate myself.

[mpb1]

If they do decide to delete your post you can PM both individuals with your request. I'd sure love to see the debate myself.

Thanks Bagger,

I just sent them a PM and e-mailed Stand to Reason. This board has raised many issues regarding Christianity that I think really need to be answered. It would be interesting to compile a list - something like the one below, and then have responses posted from Christian apologists as well as people like Dig Deeper and FormerFundy...

PROBLEMS WITH CHRISTIANITY:

- Evangelical Christianity as we know it appears to be less than 500 years old
- Difficulty reconciling the God of the O.T. with the God of the N.T.
[...The "God of the O.T." killed infants and children]
- The apparent "worthlessless" of large portions of the O.T.
- Lack of clear supernatural involvement in forming the canon of Scripture
- Difficulty reconciling the teachings of all the various biblical writers
[List perceived contradictions here...]
- Lack of clear supernatural authorship of many books and passages
- Lack of evidence for the supposed "Apostolic authority" of the writers
- Lack of clarity in many teachings of Scripture, allowing for multiple contradictory interpretations
- Difficulty in defending the supposed inerrancy of Scripture
- Difficulties reconciling science with Scripture, particularly Creation and the Flood
- Difficulty reconciling the existence of a good, omnipotent God with the "problem of evil" and suffering
- Difficulty fathoming the severity of God's intended punishment of the damned
- Difficulty understanding how justice is served through vicarious atonement - the innocent dying for the guilty
- Lack of compelling evidence for the deity of Christ, the Resurrection, etc.

I hope other members will add to this list, so it can be somewhat comprehensive before one or more apologists begins to tackle the issues.

After the list is "complete" maybe it can be posted in a debate forum, where both sides can post responses (since this forum is only for non-believers, and I shouldn't even be here :)

[mpb1]

I just received this response from Howard Pepper, who goes by the username Dig Deep on Theolgy Web (one of the two men who wrote extensively on this thread about walking away from their faith). He gave me permission to post his reponse:

----------------------------------------

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your consideration and offer. I'll have to admit it is tempting, though I feel I must say no for now. My sense of calling, no different than the one I had for Christian service earlier in life, is toward education with the aim of individual and societal growth and improved functionality, as well as greater knowledge of truth, and preparation for the life to come, which I still believe in.

Yes, when and how to "correct" what I see as serious misimpressions gained from a literalist biblical reading is tricky. Some people get traumatized if led into "doubt." They can't imagine other ways all the good effects of their faith can be reinterpreted and replicated, though many have gone through it.

But my reasons to decline, for the next month or 2 at least, are pragmatic in terms of where I need to put my time. And I am so meticulous that any debate situation would no doubt consume a LOT of my time.

Thanks again, and please stay in touch,

Howard


Howard Pepper
President, Nurture Press
Ebooks on Spiritual Cooperation
www.GoodNewsBetterNews.com

----------------------------------------

Here's a portion of another message I just received from Howard (Dig Deep on TheologyWeb). He gave me permission to post his response...

----------------------------------------

I do like the list and it's phrasing. Nicely succinct. Of course, many more could be added, some equally strong. There are a few that could be strengthened by either elaborating a bit, or adding sub-points. E.g., a lot more could be done w/ the canonization issue--books taken, for quite a period sometimes, as authoritative by much of the Church and by accepted orthodox (or "proto-orthodox") Fathers that did not make the canon; the very long, political process for agreeing on a canon, with books like Revelation (key in the "end times" scenarios so popular these days) being very late, and still questioned as late as the Reformation; the evidence for many competing forms of early Christianity, in which varying degrees of "Gnosticism" were often present, not always more "out there" than some of the concepts in John's gospel or in Eph/Col. It's not just the canon, but agreement on now-key doctrinal issues around the nature of Christ, his sacrifice/atonement, Israel vs. all peoples as God's "chosen," role of the Law, etc., etc. that came only slowly, with no evidence of "Holy Spirit guidance," really--just a convenient label for a natural process.

An elaboration on the vicarious atonement/justice issue is that atonement theories also developed slowly and have never been agreed upon broadly within orthodoxy (or Orthodoxy/Catholicism/Protestantism). Corollary: The OT certainly did not make clear that the Messiah would be sacrificed (nor that he would be a God-man!) in an atoning way--that he would be the fulfillment of the sacrificial system of their faith, and it apparently was far from clear to the Apostles, and even not settled on by whoever wrote the Gospels.

I'd also say lack of evidence that there was prophecy-fulfillment-recording in Christ, rather than prophecy applied to story, which was written precisely TO ACCOMMODATE those prophecies.

The difficulties w/ Paul's authority (based largely on his visions and his self-assertion, accepted by some, but not clearly so by other Apostles), and relationship to the Jerusalem leaders should have a prominent place in any list.

Thanks,

Howard
----------------------------------------

[FormerFundy]

I just sent Mark a pm but I thought I would share my thoughts here as well.

As I told him, I wouldn't mind a friendly dialogue on these issues but I am not really interested in a "debate." Most of the time in debates, people are not interested in discovering truth but rather in "winning" the debate. It tends to harden both sides. Since I am an agnostic, I don't think its possible to win a debate on these matters in any kind of objective way. To quote Paul, let each man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

[mpb1]

Thanks FormerFundy,

I kind of feel like I've hijacked this thread, and to those who have posted here, I apologize for that. I guess this issue should be moved to an appropriate area as soon as possible, though I'm not exactly sure where it should go, myself.

Bill the Cat sent me the PM below. So I guess he likes the idea. Now, it's just a matter of setting up a thread here, and then (I guess) folks from both sides could start posting points and counter-points - unless it should be done in a more structured way. (I was thinking maybe unstructured at first, and then we could gather the best points from both sides as the "debate" progresses.)

Like FormerFundy, I also just want to see the "best of both sides" to LEARN more about the issues and BECOME BETTER EQUIPPED, rather than merely participating in a boxing match. I feel like a couple Goliath's (forgive the analogy) have raised serious questions about Christianity, and I'm hoping a few David's can take down these giants - though of course, no offense is intended :)

Here's the message from Bill the Cat, and below that is part of the PM I received from Former Fundy, where he said it might be good to have Doubting John involved as well (which sounds great to me). I hope the more experienced members here can setup a thread in the appropriate place, and then the discussion can begin...

--------------------------------

"Mark,

... seeing how we are a theology debate forum, we think your idea is great and we would love to host it here, since the two other members are already registered here. If you would like to assist us in coordinating that, we would welcome your help..."

Thanks
Bill the Cat
Admin Assistant

--------------------------------

From FormerFundy's PM:

"BTW--I don't know if you have contacted DoubtingJohn (John Loftus) who runs the site: debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com
but he is also a former Christian who earned a Th.M. in apologetics under William Craig and who now is an atheist. He may be interested in a debate as it were."

- FormerFundy

--------------------------------

Finally, here's a portion of the reply I sent yesterday to Bill the Cat, which I also sent to Stand to Reason Ministries (the message was tweaked a little for posting here):

...If a debate can be arranged, that'd be terrific. I guess I now see it as a much longer process, since the "problems with Christianity" list will need more developing, and frankly, I think it would take multiple apologists to even come close to adequately answering the issues. So on the first go-around, we probably won't even have all the "problems" on the table, and we probably won't come close to answering them (especially not to the satisfaction of the true skeptics).

I want to help in any way I can. But it would probably take something like a "campaign" where TheologyWeb announced it, then created a special forum where contributors could help create a comprehensive list of problematic issues that undermine Christianity.

Once the list was developed and honed by a few good writers, perhaps a more structured debate could begin. It would probably have to be a long-term debate, and I for one would love to request responses from all the top apologists and a number of seminary professors. Since the two ex-Christians were educated in the best apologetics information available - and still walked away - it will take a great deal of scholarship and research to overcome the objections raised.

And the amount of time this whole process will take may end up being similar to that of writing a book. Perhaps TheologyWeb cam announce the possibility that this debate project may be turned into a book. I have a small library of apologetics books myself, and I don't believe any of them can answer all the objections raised. ..."The Top 10 (or 15 or 20) Objections to Christianity" might be a good working title (if the idea of eventually turning this into a book project is considered).

If a publisher takes any interest in the project, we'd have a better chance of receiving responses from the top apologists. By the way, I want nothing from it. I just want to see it happen, and I'll help if I can.

I'm not quite sure where to go from here. I guess we'll see what happens :)

Thanks,
Mark Bradford

[mpb1]

******************************************

UPDATE:

PROBLEMS WITH CHRISTIANITY: Skeptics vs. Apologists

DEBATE FORUM HAS BEEN STARTED HERE:

www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=81238


******************************************

[yuzuha]

I myself was quite the fundamentalist at one time. My de-conversion was very gradual. I started as fire and brimstone inerrantist. I studied and discussed and the more I read, saw, and discussed the more I saw nuance and doubt. I found myself bending over backwards to excuse things in the Bible and I really started disliking my fellow christians. :lol:

First it was little things. I acknowledged evolution as fact(I know that sounds lame but hey small steps). Then I moved from Biblical Inerrancy to a position of the Bible as a way to get to heaven not how the heavens go. A position that the parts in the Old Testament didn't apply anymore etc. Basically I moved from Evangelical Bible Thumper to Liberal Christianity. I was pro-choice, pacifist, and so on and do forth. Then over time it just came down to the problem of evil and the doctrine of hell that finally sapped my last bit of faith. I only officially acknowledged where I ended up a few months ago. That is to say that I was for all intents and purposes a Quaker style christian that couldn't post in this forum up until a short time ago.

For me it was the PoE and the doctrine of Hell that sealed the deal. What was it for you guys?
Was never a Christian though have gone to various churches with friends on various occasions. Catholics have the best rituals what with the robes and incense burners and all. ^-^

[Bagger_Vance]

******************************************

UPDATE:

PROBLEMS WITH CHRISTIANITY: Skeptics vs. Apologists

DEBATE FORUM HAS BEEN STARTED HERE:

www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=81238


******************************************

Great to hear it.

[mpb1]

Since I interrupted this thread (with apologies), I'd like to help get it back "ON TOPIC."

The original topic was:

"How many of you are former christians? (For Non-Theists Only)"

Along with many others who have been intrigued by these stories, I hope this thread will return to its "regularly scheduled programming" and that more former Christians will share their stories - and what led them to adandon the faith.

Just FYI... I don't know if there are other sites like this, but I just found these - with more testimonies from ex-Christians: www.ex-christian.net and www.exchristian.org. (I'm a believer, but I want to learn from these stories to improve my understanding of Christian apologetics and effectiveness in evangelism, and I'd imagine other Christians are reading these for the same reason :)

[neonmagek]

I was raised a Christian and beleived in Christianities teachings. I simply saw it as "just how things are". It was as real to me as the sidewalks people walk on. At the time I thought there were only a few lines of thoughts. There were the Christians, who were the ones that were right. The Jews, who I thought of as just being really behind the times and Catholics as I saw as people who misunderstood the Bible. Then there were the Satanists who I thought of as evil people who were messed up in the head and liked running around making everyone's life miserable. I read my Bible, but I did not question it. I had no reason to.

One day I was watching the Discovery Channel and there was a special on about Wiccans. Wiccans? Where did these people come from? I was extremely curious so I kept watching. As far as I could tell they wanted people to be happy, liked nature and thought we should protect it. I thought that sounded fairly reasonable. I wanted to know more about it so I asked my mom about them. She told me they were Satanists who do things like sacrifice virgins. I asked her if they were Satanists, why do they call them selves Wiccans rather than Satanists. She said it was because they knew what they were doing was wrong. I said that if they what they were doing was wrong, then they wouldn't do it.

I got the distinct impression they my mom was making stuff up because it didn't make much sense. As soon as a could (as soon as my mom was off doing something else) I jumped on the internet and looked into the Wiccans. I didnt see anything wrong with them other than the sex rituals. As a young man, I could understand why they would like that. *bou chica bou wow*

While I was looking into Wiccans, I found another religion, and another and another. Suddenly it dawned on me. My parents and everyone around me were lieing about how the world was and intentionaly preventing me from telling the truth. It took me sneaking onto the net to look into it to find out about it. I felt betrayed.

I then started wondering. why wouldn't these people believe the Bible. My first thought was that they were just stupid. I almost immediatly realized that would be very arrogent of me to assume that. Obviously there had to be something there that was convincing to them and something about the Bible that was not convincing.

I started going on the net to chat about it. People started bring up things about the Bible I had never thought of. I resolved everything they brought up with not much problem when I was thumbing though my JKV. But something else happened. I found a contradiction. One that I could not resolve. I tried my best to make it go away, but in doing so, found more contradictions. I thought it had to be due to my lack of understanding and that they just HAD to be just apparent contradictions rather than real ones. Then I started looking into more of the sciences, not because I wanted to test the Bible with it, but because I thought it was intersting. However, I found that science, something I found VERY convincing, contradicted the Bible. The more I tried to fix things, the more broke I realized it was. It was a gradual process, but here I am, an atheist for 11 years so far.

[neonmagek]

Sorry about the spelling and grammar