PDA

View Full Version : OUR FEATURED MEMBER ARTICLE: The Patriot Analogy by jpholding


Editor
September 8th 2005, 09:55 PM
The Patriot Analogy
500
Or, How to Know Who's What

500

No doubt some of you have been in a conversation like this one...

Skeptic: "Hitler was a Christian!"

Christian: "What?"

Skeptic: "He said in one of his own speeches he was!"

Christian: "Anyone can call themselves a Christian, but that doesn't make them one."

Skeptic: "Oh yeah? How can you judge who is a Christian?"

How indeed? The simple answer, "a Christian is someone who adheres to Christianity," tends to fly off teflon minds used to the postmodern non-distinction between persons. One must define what "Christianity" is, and then it is possible to say whether any given person was or was not a Christian; and at that stage of the exchange, how indeed do we know who a "real" Christian is? Indeed, how (to answer a common inside question) can we know we are?

To answer this, here is a helpful illustration that I have called The Patriot Analogy. To those who claim that answering, "Who is a Christian?" is so nebulous as to be impossible to answer, we would reply with this illustration of a similar question answered, and which no one else would say is nebulous or impossible to decide.

Faith, as we note in another context (http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html), is essentially loyalty. In this light we can ask another question just as well: "Who is a loyal American?" (Or, whatever country you may be in.) Who qualifies as a patriotic American? Someone who:

Displays a flag?

Is willing to join the military (or other organization) to serve the country? Or to serve the country in other ways outside an organization?

Knows the contents of the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence?

Follows the laws of this country?

Arguably these are all things (though not the only things) one can or must do to be called a Patriot. Yet of course, the absence of these things does not cause us to say someone is NOT a Patriot. At a minimum we suggest they MUST love their country. Yet if they do none of these things -- or are unwilling to do them, or refuse to do them -- what do we say? Is it evident that they do love their country as they profess? They may be:

A real patriot, but not an active one; or,

A patriot who takes issue with some of the claims of the country upon them, but still loves the country and adheres to the core values of the nation; or,

A "wolf in sheep's clothing" pretending to be a Patriot, for whatever reason (friendship, etc.)

By now one can guess that this is analogical to the question, "Who is a true Christian?" Let's rework some of the questions above. Who qualifies as a real Christian? Someone who:

Displays a cross or a Christian T-shirt?

Is willing to join the church (or other organization) to serve the body of Christ? Or to serve the body in other ways outside an organization?

Knows the contents of the Bible?

Follows the precepts of the Bible?

Arguably these are all things (though not the only things) one can or must do to be called a Christian. So in light of the above, does the absence of these things does not cause us to say someone is NOT a Christian? At a minimum we suggest they MUST love God. Yet if they do none of these things -- or are unwilling to do them, or refuse to do them -- what do we say? Is it evident that they do love their country as they profess? They may be:

A real Christian, but not an active one; or,

A Christian who rejects some part of the Bible's teachings, but still adheres to the core principles of the faith; or,

A "wolf in sheep's clothing" pretending to be a Christian, for whatever reason (friendship, etc.)

And of course there is another issue: What about someone like a Mormon or a JW who qualifies on all counts for the list above? In that case, the question turns not just on (say) whether they follow the Bible; it follows on whether they do so accurately. Someone who claimed adherence to the Constitution, but professed to somehow read out of it a model for a dictatorship (!), we would rightly wonder of their ability to be defined as "American". Certainly the more "pick and choose" a person is with beliefs, the less likely it is that they can satisfy the definition of "patriot" to a given cause.

Now back to the Hitler question; is it really impossible to wedge Hitler or anyone else into the fold at our convenience, just because they say "I am a Christian?" To do so, one must show that Hitler was at the very least loyal to Christian principles; otherwise, the claim is worthless. Can you imagine a conversation like this being seriously pursued?

Skeptic: "Osama bin Laden is a patriotic American!"

Christian: "What?"

Skeptic: "He said in one of his own speeches he was!"

Christian: "Anyone can call themselves a patriotic American, but that doesn't make them one."

Skeptic: "Oh yeah? How can you judge who is a patriotic American?"

If the answer is not obvious to you -- I can't help you.

Of course it is always possible -- may we stretch a point -- that some flag-waving, Bill-of-Rights-quoting person out there is really some sort of false patriot, an Eastern terrorist in disguise plotting to blow up something. But we recognize that such people are the exception rather than the rule. Pastors who counsel encourage Christians to take a close look at their own lives, in line with Paul who says to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." How? The same way you decide whether you are a True Patriot -- and if that is something that people have no problem figuring out, then it should hardly be a mystery who is a True Christian!

500

Visit more of the writings of J. P. Holding at: www.tektonics.org

500

Notice – The ministries featured in this section are guests of this site and very often not active members of debate forums. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.

500

Notice - The featuring of a particular article does not constitute endorsement of every single item or point of view contained therein by each and every member of TheologyWeb leadership. We strive to have a varied cross-section of representations of differing opinions on secondary Christian issues. The only requirement for the featuring of a particular article is that said article must not contradict the essentials articulated in the TheologyWeb statement of faith found here in our Mission Statement (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/mission/)or be blatantly offensive to the Christian worldview of the site Owners.

Jaltus
September 9th 2005, 12:14 AM
Good article. It is a good analogy.

anewlife
September 12th 2005, 09:51 AM
Great article as always JP...

I do see this discussed quite often in other forums. Awhile back I performed a little checklist to see how Adolf stacked up to the Christian faith....

Hitler's Bent on Christianity

How well does Hitler stack up against the Duties of the NT? Let's see how well Hitler fairs upholding the NT laws [duty towards other human beings] shall we?

First the Positive:

1. Love all, especially our brethren (John 15:17; Rom 12:10; 1 Cor 16:14; 1 Pet)

1:22; 1 John 3:23; 4:7 {1 John 4:7}).

2. Be sympathetic and compassionate (Eph 4:32; Phil 2:4; Col 3:12).

3. Forgive and forbear (Rom 12:19; Eph 4:32; Col 3:13).

4. Deal honestly and fairly (Rom 12:17b; 13:7 {Rom 13:7}; 13:13 {Rom 13:13}; 1Thess 4:12; Jas 2:1).

5. Do good to all and help all (Rom 12:13; Gal 6:2, 10; 1 Thess 5:15; Titus 3:1;

Heb 13:16; Jas 4:17; 3 John 11).

6. Tell the truth (Eph 4:25).

7. Be courteous and live peaceably with all (Rom 12:18; 1 Pet 2:17; 3:8 {1 Pet

3:8}).

8. Treat others, as we would like for them to treat us (Luke 6:31; Rom 12:17a).

9. Provide a good example for others (1 Cor 8:9, 13; Phil 2:15).

10. Urge brethren to good works and seek to restore backsliders (Gal 6:1; Heb

10:24).

Well I can't see where Hitler managed to follow any of these 10 principles?

#1. Guilty [Hated Jews]

#2. Guilty

#3. Guilty

#4. Guilty

#5. Guilty

#6. Guilty

#7. Guilty

#8. Guilty

#9. Guilty

#10. Guilty

So far 0 points...

Negative

1. Do not lie or bear false witness (Eph 4:25; Col 3:9; Titus 2:3).

2. Do not steal (Eph 4:28; 1 Pet 4:15).

3. Do not murder (1 Pet 4:15).

4. Do not commit adultery or fornication (1 Cor 6:18; 1 Thess 4:13).

5. Do not judge others or speak evil of them (Rom 14:13; Titus 3:2; Jas 4:11; cf.

John 7:24).

6. Do not be unequally yoked with an unbeliever (2 Cor 6:14).

7. Do not have fellowship with professing Christians who live in scandalous sin (1

Cor 5:11; 2 Thess 3:14).

8. Do not go to law with other believers (1 Cor 6:lff).

9. Do not glory in men (1 Cor 3:21).

10. Avoid troublemakers and useless disputes (Rom 16:17; 2 Tim 2:23; Titus

3:12).

11. Do not have unpaid debts (Rom 13:8).

Moving onto the next list of negatives we can conclude the following:

#1. Guilty

#2. Innocent to a degree of uncertainty.

#3. Guilty

#4. Don't really know his personal relationships nor do I want to know.

#5. Guilty

#6. Again personal marriage/sexual relationships.

#7. Guilty

#8. Guilty [uses OT to justify his means of flesh]

#9. Guilty

#10. Though Hitler did help economic issues, I would say he still had some unpaid debts. 4 out of 20 so far... Not bad -- but not good.

Duties toward Self

Positive

1. Be holy (1 Pet 1:15; 2:11 {1 Pet 2:11}; 2 Pet 3:1).

2. Cleave to the good and do good to all (Rom 12:9; 1 Thess 5:15).

3. Study the Word of God and meditate on sacred things (1 Thess 4:11; 2 Tim

2:15).

4. Grow spiritually (2 Pet 3:18).

5. Think on good things (Phil 4:8).

6. Think soberly of yourself (Rom 12:3).

7. Be ambitious in the right way (1 Cor 12:31; 14:1 {1 Cor 14:1}; 2 Cor 5:4).

8. Be content with what God gives you (Heb 13:5).

9. Rejoice in the Lord (Rom 12:12; Phil 3:1; 4:4 {Phil 4:4}; 1 Thess 5:16).

10. Live in the light of the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor 9:24).

11. Judge yourself and confess sins to God (1 Cor 11:31; 2 Cor 13:5; 1 John 1:9).

12. Conserve time for good purposes (Eph 5:11; Col 4:5).

13. Cultivate your mind (1 Pet 1:13).

14. Do useful work (Eph 4:28; 2 Thess 3:12).

15. Keep your body clean and in good health (1 Cor 6:15; 6:19,20 {1 Cor 6}; 10:31

{1 Cor 10:31}; Rom 12:1).

#1. Classified as evil...Guilty

#2. Guilty

#3. While Hitler never attended church much [if any]... He may have studied a few verses.

#4. Guilty

#5. Guilty

#6. Arrogance is not soberly... Guilty

#7. Guilty

#8. Guilty wanted a master race, and complete control.

#9. Not-guilty [somewhat this decree can be debated]

#10. Guilty

#11. Guilty [unless someone can prove he confessed his sins of his actions]

#12. Guilty

#13. Guilty [open for debate]

#14. Guilty [killing is not useful]

#15. Not Guilty [ In reference to soap and water cleanliness, however Guilty of spiritually cleanliness] 3 out of 15... Not too shabby but in need of drastic improvement -- but should have attended Church.

Negative

1. Abhor evil (Rom 12:9; 1 Thess 5:22).

2. Avoid pride (Rom 12:3; Jas 4:10; 1 Pet 5:6).

3. Do not conform to or love the world (Rom 12:2; 1 John 2:15).

4. Do not fellowship with evil (Eph 5:11).

5. Do not sin through anger (Eph 4:26).

6. Do not worry (Phil 4:6; 1 Pet 5:7; 1 John 14:1,27).

7. Do not be lazy (Rom 12:1).

8. Do not use filthy speech (Eph 4:29; 5:4 {Eph 5:4}).

9. Do not become drunk (Eph 5:18).

10. Do not complain (1 Cor 10:10; Phil 2:14).

#1. Guilty

#2. Guilty

#3. Guilty

#4. Guilty

#5. Guilty

#6. Guilty [Jews put the fear into him]

#7. Not- Guilty

#8. Guilty

#9. Guilty

#10. Guilty

Ok, now we have 1 out of 10 possible points. You sank my battleship?

Final tally, of 46 possible points in the "Duties towards other human beings for Christians". Hitler scores a total of 8 points. So 17.4% In favor of being a Christian according to Duties towards other human beings.

So we can say to a certain degree that Hitler held 17.4% of the values of a Christian duty towards others. Is this enough? True no one can manage 100% in this area, but can 17.4% be labeled as a "True Carnal Christian"?

While I agree that Hitler was baptized--and proclaimed to be a Christian, I am wondering why he ignored Jesus' commands in the NT?

Sorry didn't mean to steal your thunder here...
:smile:

Carry On!

Bill the Cat
September 12th 2005, 10:15 AM
:redcard::redcard::redcard::redcard::redcard::redcard:


I split all of the inane posts off into a new thread located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=61265)

Any attempts to derail this thread again will be met with stiff penalties!!

Sparko
September 12th 2005, 10:20 AM
Well, Hitler did have illicit sex with a minor niece of his according to the history channel, and he stole art and treasures from the jews to finance his war, not to mention stealing entire countries and freedoms of millions of people. His spending on war drove Germany into a depression after the war so there goes the debt thing.

I think Hitler would score a zero on that list.

Amazing Rando
September 12th 2005, 12:37 PM
It seems to me he's arguing that nobody can tell whether you're a "true Christian" or not except you yourself. The only way to tell if one is "truly Christian" is through introspection, and nobody can do that for you except you. If that's his thesis, then I can't help but agree.

anewlife
September 12th 2005, 02:38 PM
It seems to me he's arguing that nobody can tell whether you're a "true Christian" or not except you yourself. The only way to tell if one is "truly Christian" is through introspection, and nobody can do that for you except you. If that's his thesis, then I can't help but agree.

Indeed so... It is a good article and I did like the analogy utilizing "Patriotism". I find it troubling that anyone would just go by claims (and act out as such as Hitler) and think he ha[s] merit with Christianity. I always found it troubling when others look upon anyone other than Christ to get the true picture of Christianity.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off topic with my earlier post... Feel free to move it to a more appropriate area if need be.

Amazing Rando
September 12th 2005, 02:45 PM
Indeed so... It is a good article and I did like the analogy utilizing "Patriotism". I find it troubling that anyone would just go by claims (and act out as such as Hitler) and think he ha[s] merit with Christianity. I always found it troubling when others look upon anyone other than Christ to get the true picture of Christianity.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off topic with my earlier post... Feel free to move it to a more appropriate area if need be.

I agree wholeheartedly- though I wish he'd used another analogy besides patriotism. I don't consider myself patriotic, because of "patriotism's" all-too-frequent tendency to overshadow the place where our real citizenship and allegiance lies.

Sparko
September 12th 2005, 02:48 PM
It seems to me he's arguing that nobody can tell whether you're a "true Christian" or not except you yourself. The only way to tell if one is "truly Christian" is through introspection, and nobody can do that for you except you. If that's his thesis, then I can't help but agree.

I agree that one of main points of the article is that most times it is hard to know if a person is truly Christian or not and that it is truly up to them and God. But I think he is using the Osama and Hitler examples to show that there are indeed times when a person's life is so contrary to their claims (hypothetical in the Osama example) that only a fool would believe their claims to be one thing while living another.

Amazing Rando
September 12th 2005, 02:51 PM
Sounds right.

So perhaps an implication of his argument is that we should avoid idle speculation about deciding who's being true to the faith and instead ask the question of ourselves?

Sparko
September 12th 2005, 02:57 PM
Sounds right.

So perhaps an implication of his argument is that we should avoid idle speculation about deciding who's being true to the faith and instead ask the question of ourselves?

Yep, many times people fool themselves. We should all constantly check our faith and make sure it is true. I think that is what Paul meant about

Philippians 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

He is speaking about making sure you have a true faith.

jpholding
September 12th 2005, 03:10 PM
Sounds right.

So perhaps an implication of his argument is that we should avoid idle speculation about deciding who's being true to the faith and instead ask the question of ourselves?

Not only that, but it was directed to Skeptics who kept thinking comments about Angus putting sugar in his porridge had any value.

Sparko
September 12th 2005, 03:55 PM
Not only that, but it was directed to Skeptics who kept thinking comments about Angus putting sugar in his porridge had any value.

But No True Scottsman(tm) would put sugar in his porridge! :glare: