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Colossians
September 8th 2005, 11:50 PM
THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION THE ARMINIAN CAN’T ANSWER.



Preamble:
We have seen the Arminians come up with their usual a-priori reasoning, and more commonly, question begging.

They have also introduced a notion of libertarianism with over-extended utility:
Libertarianism describes freedom from external compulsion, not freedom from internal compulsion. They have erroneously used it in the latter sense.

They call this thing “agent causation”, which de-high-falutinised, simply means “I cause myself to do what I do”. In line with their over-extension of libertarianism, they obtain erroneous utility from such notion: they feel they can cause themselves, without being affected by themselves in the causing: an effect divorced from its cause after the fact.

Their ideas are not properly defined, nor concluded upon by themselves. They will suggest fuzzy concepts, but never go to the point of clearly defining these things, esp. with regard to pragmatics.
Not surprisingly then, they provide no empirical evidence.

Their position therefore is only ostensibly a logical one: it is actually a faith - more particularly, an esoteric hollow man. When you highlight the implications of their ideas (that they have essentially personified the will as an entity in itself, a ‘will-person’), they will come back with “I didn’t say that”, or “I didn’t mean this”, with the glaringly obvious omission of what they actually did say and mean, and omission of the necessary companion pragmatics and processes necessary to validate what they supposedly meant by what they said.
Their ‘methodology’ is sloppy, and their product a convoluted hybrid of concepts and ‘possibilities’ never clearly segregated either at the theoretical or pragmatic level.

So let’s get to some real, definable, undeniable, substance, and derive the true answer to the question the Arminan can’t answer.





The question and its universe of discourse:
First of all, the question centres not on choice, but on difference of choice between two choosers, and more importantly, comparative quality of choice as regards eternity.
Although the Arminian likes to wander off and consider one man’s choice in isolation, this is not the essence of the question: the question concerns differing choices between 2 individuals.
And although the Arminian likes to wander off to the Philistine philosophers contrary to warning in Colossians 2:8, preferring to forget God’s economy in the scheme of things and instead submit their logic to relativism, we shall stick to the Godly universe of discourse, benefit: it is better to go to heaven than to hell.

So then, we have a God who creates 2 fellows, Fred, and Bill.
Both are equally endowed with free will (according to the Arminian): they can both make decisions autonomously from God. Fred uses his free will to choose for God; Bill uses his free will to choose against God. Why?

The question that needs to be asked first of all is: “what determines the will?” Can I have a will to do something without a reason for it? And of course I can’t: such would constitute an oxymoron: any will (intent) is inextricably fused with the reason for it.
This then brings up the first vital ingredient: perceived benefit.





Perceived benefit:
The will is the servant of perceived benefit. Whether I am suicidal, anorexic, a tennis player, banker, theologian, hooker, internet-debater, gambler, or philanthropist giving all my money to the poor, all my decisions will follow perceived benefit.
Not surprisingly then, God offers the gospel message in terms of benefit: salvation is salvation from a terrible alternative, and in line with this, “gospel” means “good news”: as far as we know, “good” is always better than “not good”, and even better than “bad”.

So then, Fred perceives that the benefit is in choosing for God, and Bill perceives the benefit is in choosing against God.





Perception:
At this point it is necessary to defined how we are using the term “perceived”: is it absolute (“he knows absolutely what the truth is”) in which case he has perceived from God’s perspective via the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit, or is it relativistic (“he thinks he perceives the truth”) in which case his perception may be wrong.
We shall be using it both senses simultaneously, and shall achieve such by drilling down to the indivisible-unit level and conjugating the absolute with the relative.
Thus we shall talk about “truth-truth” and “lie-truth” where have separated out absolute truth and absolute lie as the first item in each conjugation, and relativistic truth as the second item.
Fred’s perception is truth-truth, and Bill’s perception is lie-truth: Fred goes to heaven and Bill goes to a destination considerably less comfortable.

Now our universe of discourse being benefit, we therefore derive that both Fred and Bill were equally benefited from their decisions relativistically (both have “truth” as their second item in the conjugation), but that from an absolute viewpoint, Fred was benefited with the actual truth, but Bill merely ‘benefited’ with a lie.
This stacks up empirically: non-believers will commonly declare to believers: “you have your truth, and I have mine”. And of course such aligns with Jesus’ words: “If the light in you is darkness ….”, and yet with other scripture: “there is a way that seemeth right unto man, but ….”





Perception’s author:
The next thing now to consider is: “can I author my perception?” And the answer is a resounding “no”.
The Arminian here will be tempted to jump on the world’s band-wagon of self-help psychology and claim “yes I can! I can, for instance, decide to look at things positively rather than negatively, and so alter the course of my perceptions in the future”. Like all Arminian thinking however, this is just another example of superficial analysis not positioned at the root level.

The perception we are talking about here is not the second-tier perception above, but perception after the fact of the event perceived: the perception which, for example, you have just experienced in reading this sentence.
Applying this to the proposed Arminian knee-jerk example above, we are talking about the initial perception that I should even begin to look at things positively at all: the ‘first-base’ perception.

Such ‘first bases’ exist at an infinite number of levels and junctions in my mind’s thoughts, as well as at the very level of my being: the issue is a recursive one: any perception I have, is preceded by another at a more fundamental level.

Inductively then, we derive that at the absolute level, perception is the irresistible result of who one is: Fred’s perceiving of truth-truth and Bill’s perceiving of lie-truth are the result of who they are.
This brings us to the answer.





The answer:
Our universe of discourse being benefit (and specifically as it relates to God’s economy), all decisions serving the purpose of perceived benefit, and all perception being the irresistible result of who we are as individuals, we therefore derive irrefutably that the reason for the differing eternal decisions of Fred and Bill is none other than the difference of their persons.

Because we understand that God alone made each of Fred and Bill, and that neither had input to their own composition, neither of them having existed before themselves, we now answer the question:

Fred and Bill chose differently for eternity because they were made that way.

dizzle
September 9th 2005, 12:06 AM
:oldeek:

BenK
September 9th 2005, 01:26 AM
So, essentially:

1. Arminianism (by which we simply mean 'Orthodox Christianity', not the specific schema of James Arminius) is incompatible with determinism.

2. Determinism is true.

3. Therefore Arminianism is not true.

Of course we simply deny the second premise. You seem to be attempting some further argument that determinism is nescessarily true. First, you deny agent causation, which seems impossible for a Christian; surely God causes things without being 'caused' to do so? Secondly, you set a scenario where two people choose differently and ask 'what determines their choices?' which is to say, 'assuming determinism, determinism!' Thirdly, you assert that all choices are determined by 'perceived benefit' on the part of the agent. This goes on for quite some time and boils down to 'here is a deterministic model of choice, therefore determinism is true'.

More insightful is your conclusion: if determinism is true, then those who sin sin because God made them to sin. In Calvin's schema, God creates so that he might punish them by way of unending torment for being the way he made them.

Sheepdog
September 9th 2005, 03:11 AM
so... what was the answer again?

yxboom
September 9th 2005, 03:22 AM
so... what was the answer again?
he has a really longwinded way of saying, I have no concept of libertarian freewill.

john-philip
September 9th 2005, 11:39 AM
So, essentially:

1. Arminianism (by which we simply mean 'Orthodox Christianity', not the specific schema of James Arminius) is incompatible with determinism.

2. Determinism is true.

3. Therefore Arminianism is not true.

More specifically, he has asserted, essentially, that LFW is incompatible with determinism. Which is exactly what Arminians assert - incompatibilism! :lmbo:

The only difference is, we reject determinism, not LFW.

What a blowhard. :lol:

themuzicman
September 9th 2005, 11:41 AM
Translation: "Look at me! I'm a self-important, arrogant idiot who has no clue what my opponents think!"

Ormly
September 9th 2005, 11:49 AM
Because we understand that God alone made each of Fred and Bill, and that neither had input to their own composition, neither of them having existed before themselves, we now answer the question:

Fred and Bill chose differently for eternity because they were made that way.




What??! Must be you think Fred and Bill were angels who were created individually? Sorry, pro-creation is the deal in this because God finished making when He finished creation. Reprobate and election doesn't stem from God but from man; man's willfulness in choosing either God or himself, corrupted by the satanic.

Captain Ochre
September 9th 2005, 11:54 AM
So, essentially:

1. Arminianism (by which we simply mean 'Orthodox Christianity', not the specific schema of James Arminius) is incompatible with determinism.

2. Determinism is true.

3. Therefore Arminianism is not true.

Of course we simply deny the second premise. You seem to be attempting some further argument that determinism is nescessarily true. First, you deny agent causation, which seems impossible for a Christian; surely God causes things without being 'caused' to do so? Secondly, you set a scenario where two people choose differently and ask 'what determines their choices?' which is to say, 'assuming determinism, determinism!' Thirdly, you assert that all choices are determined by 'perceived benefit' on the part of the agent. This goes on for quite some time and boils down to 'here is a deterministic model of choice, therefore determinism is true'.

More insightful is your conclusion: if determinism is true, then those who sin sin because God made them to sin. In Calvin's schema, God creates so that he might punish them by way of unending torment for being the way he made them.

Bingo.
Nice post, BenK.

Furor
September 9th 2005, 12:01 PM
I'm far too inept to read the entirety of the other thread. What was his refutation of the whole "different environments/upbringings lead to different choices" response?

smaller
September 9th 2005, 01:08 PM
I'm far too inept to read the entirety of the other thread. What was his refutation of the whole "different environments/upbringings lead to different choices" response?

There was no response to your environment variation just as there was no response to my "the devil blinds men to God" response.

The conundrum that cannot be addressed by "Arminians" is that there is no way possible to quantify the elimination of either God's Will or the devil's will interacting with mankind and of course there is ample scriptural evidence showing the fact that God's Will and the devil's will DOES interact with the will's of men, therefore there is certainly TAMPERING and this TAMPERING cannot be reasonably denied without denying the scriptures that show this TAMPERING to be a FACT.

But the Arminian MUST DENY this clear FACT in order to uphold their guesswork in this matter and NONE of them have shown themselves to be IMMUNE from the POSSIBILITY of TAMPERING by either God's Will or the devil's.

They have NO ANSWER for this problem nor will they EVER.

The Calvinists have just as big of an issue as well, but of course they have no answers either.

So what we really have IMHO is just devils in men causing their typical confusions i.e. CALVINISTs AND ARMINIANs and they certainly LOVE to HATE each other and MAKE CONFUSIONS and DIVIDE the children of God. That is exactly what DEVILS in men do.

enjoy your "burdens!" They will find their end at your respective CROSSings.

smaller

Colossians
September 9th 2005, 09:45 PM
So, essentially:

1. Arminianism (by which we simply mean 'Orthodox Christianity', not the specific schema of James Arminius) is incompatible with determinism.

2. Determinism is true.

3. Therefore Arminianism is not true.

Of course we simply deny the second premise. You seem to be attempting some further argument that determinism is nescessarily true. First, you deny agent causation, which seems impossible for a Christian; surely God causes things without being 'caused' to do so? Secondly, you set a scenario where two people choose differently and ask 'what determines their choices?' which is to say, 'assuming determinism, determinism!' Thirdly, you assert that all choices are determined by 'perceived benefit' on the part of the agent. This goes on for quite some time and boils down to 'here is a deterministic model of choice, therefore determinism is true'.

More insightful is your conclusion: if determinism is true, then those who sin sin because God made them to sin. In Calvin's schema, God creates so that he might punish them by way of unending torment for being the way he made them.
BenK,

You have refuted nothing. Therefore the OP stands.

Try being a little more systematic and disciplined next time: try addressing specifc points in sequence, inlcuding those points which point out deficiencies in your methodology.

Also avoid using bogus logic of the kind which declares that white elephants exists unless your opponent can produce one that doesn't exist.

BenK
September 9th 2005, 10:26 PM
BenK,

You have refuted nothing. Therefore the OP stands.

Colossians,

It is better (ala J.S. Mill) to be Socrates unsatisfied than a pig satisfied. Therefore Reinhardt Schmangold is a duck.


I leave it to the reader of posts #1 and #3 to decide whether anything has been refuted or not.

Colossians
September 10th 2005, 04:41 AM
Colossians,

It is better (ala J.S. Mill) to be Socrates unsatisfied than a pig satisfied. Therefore Reinhardt Schmangold is a duck.
I leave it to the reader of posts #1 and #3 to decide whether anything has been refuted or not.

It is better to believe that no white elephants exist, than to assert they do exist in the absence of seeing one that doesn't exist.

In other words, you have not provided:
1. Definition of your "agent causation".
2. Pragmatics of your "agent causation"
3. Evidence that decisions are made in life by agent causation
4. Evidence that the will can be unaffected by the created nature of the person in whom it resides.
5. Evidence that the will is a separate entity from the person in whom it resides.
5. Evidence that one can manufacture his own perception.
6. Evidence that one will not always choose in agreement with his perception.
7. Evidence that one will not always choose in agreement with perceived benefit, esp as regards salvation.


In short, your fuzzy ideas are a hollow man.

Kevin Wayne
September 10th 2005, 08:04 PM
What??! Must be you think Fred and Bill were angels who were created individually? Sorry, pro-creation is the deal in this because God finished making when He finished creation. Reprobate and election doesn't stem from God but from man; man's willfulness in choosing either God or himself, corrupted by the satanic.


I think you might be partly on the right track here. In reference to Colossians' questions in post #14, we see that God's "creation" of humans doesn't include all that will happen to them afterwards. Life circumstances, choices, sowing & reaping, etc. all play a part in the way we go, which is why I can still stick by what I said originally: What are the fundamental differences between those who accept God and those who reject him? Answer: none.

Ormly
September 10th 2005, 08:54 PM
I think you might be partly on the right track here. In reference to Colossians' questions in post #14, we see that God's "creation" of humans doesn't include all that will happen to them afterwards. Life circumstances, choices, sowing & reaping, etc. all play a part in the way we go, which is why I can still stick by what I said originally: What are the fundamental differences between those who accept God and those who reject him? Answer: none.

Keep in mind, Kevin, the reprobate are without remendy. They never will choose God. God foreknows that. They are the ones God chooses and raises up for evil. Not so with the elect and even less so with the very elect. So when we read in the NT about "even [some of]the very elect will be deceived.." we can see more clearly how bad it is yet to become [and now is] in our religious world.

Colossians
September 10th 2005, 09:36 PM
Kevin Wayne,


...the reprobate are without remendy. They never will choose God.
They will never choose God because their perception tells them it is better not to.
Their perception is inextricably tied to who they are.
Who they are is who they were made to be.

Just as I have detailed in the OP, which you are circumventing rather than addressing.

Kevin Wayne
September 10th 2005, 09:57 PM
Kevin Wayne,


...the reprobate are without remendy. They never will choose God.
They will never choose God because their perception tells them it is better not to.
Their perception is inextricably tied to who they are.
Who they are is who they were made to be.

Just as I have detailed in the OP, which you are circumventing rather than addressing.



Methinks you are a bit confused. It's Ormly you are adressing here.

BenK
September 10th 2005, 11:09 PM
[snip]

I sketch my reasons for rejecting Christian determinism in this thread. (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=60703)

Ormly
September 11th 2005, 05:43 AM
Kevin Wayne,


...the reprobate are without remendy. They never will choose God.
They will never choose God because their perception tells them it is better not to.
Their perception is inextricably tied to who they are.
Who they are is who they were made to be.

Just as I have detailed in the OP, which you are circumventing rather than addressing.

Nonsense!! As your OP is also, nonsense!! You can't seem to get into your thick head that only Adam was made. The rest of us came from him. AFTER he became corrrupted. . you know, -- pro-creation? With your idiotic reasoning one would suppose all men, up until Noah, individually, were made the way they were. You can't reconcile your thinking with any scripture. It isn't there.

Furor
September 11th 2005, 07:14 PM
There was no response to your environment variation just as there was no response to my "the devil blinds men to God" response.

The conundrum that cannot be addressed by "Arminians" is that there is no way possible to quantify the elimination of either God's Will or the devil's will interacting with mankind and of course there is ample scriptural evidence showing the fact that God's Will and the devil's will DOES interact with the will's of men, therefore there is certainly TAMPERING and this TAMPERING cannot be reasonably denied without denying the scriptures that show this TAMPERING to be a FACT.

But the Arminian MUST DENY this clear FACT in order to uphold their guesswork in this matter and NONE of them have shown themselves to be IMMUNE from the POSSIBILITY of TAMPERING by either God's Will or the devil's.

They have NO ANSWER for this problem nor will they EVER.

The Calvinists have just as big of an issue as well, but of course they have no answers either.

So what we really have IMHO is just devils in men causing their typical confusions i.e. CALVINISTs AND ARMINIANs and they certainly LOVE to HATE each other and MAKE CONFUSIONS and DIVIDE the children of God. That is exactly what DEVILS in men do.

enjoy your "burdens!" They will find their end at your respective CROSSings.

smaller
I, uh

what?

Suppose I were a preterist. Suppose I believed Satan to be bound and not at work in the hearts of men. What would you say then?

Though, it must be said, I agree with you about the divisive futility of this argument.

dizzle
September 11th 2005, 07:22 PM
I am getting very upset :xena2: because only I am to have long-winded confusing posts that end with: See how right I am?

Colossians
September 12th 2005, 04:03 AM
Benk,
I sketch my reasons for rejecting Christian determinism in this thread.
We don’t want sketches. We want substance.

Unless you provide:
1. Definition of your "agent causation".
2. Pragmatics of your "agent causation"
3. Evidence that decisions are made in life by agent causation
4. Evidence that the will can be unaffected by the created nature of the person in whom it resides.
5. Evidence that the will is a separate entity from the person in whom it resides.
5. Evidence that one can manufacture his own perception.
6. Evidence that one will not always choose in agreement with his perception.
7. Evidence that one will not always choose in agreement with perceived benefit, esp as regards salvation.


your fuzzy ideas are a hollow man.

Colossians
September 12th 2005, 04:09 AM
Nonsense!! As your OP is also, nonsense!! You can't seem to get into your thick head that only Adam was made. The rest of us came from him. AFTER he became corrrupted. . you know, -- pro-creation? With your idiotic reasoning one would suppose all men, up until Noah, individually, were made the way they were. You can't reconcile your thinking with any scripture. It isn't there.
God created everyone. Your hot-headedness stops you from thinking through to proper conclusions.
You are confusing agent with cause. Man is the agent for procreation, but God is ascribed with authorship and creation of every individual.
So David: "I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works".

And even if this were not the case, you have to tell us how your idea fits with Adam. Tell us how Adam did not choose according to perception, and how his perception was not a result of who he was, and how who he was was not a result of God's creating.

Ormly
September 12th 2005, 08:53 AM
God created everyone. Your hot-headedness stops you from thinking through to proper conclusions.
#1. I'm not hot-headed. I just hate willful stupidity. It greatly harms the cause of Christ. It's like chasing the money changers out of the Temple for me.


You are confusing agent with cause. Man is the agent for procreation, but God is ascribed with authorship and creation of every individual.
So David: "I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works".


I'm not confusing anything. While, indeed God is ascribed with the Authorship, He finished His work of creation with Adam and Eve and "saw that it was good". Want to argue with that?? He built in to Adam and Eve the means to carry it on. Want to argue with that, also.

And even if this were not the case, you have to tell us how your idea fits with Adam. Tell us how Adam did not choose according to perception, and how his perception was not a result of who he was, and how who he was was not a result of God's creating.

I can answer it --- but I won't because you don't want to know. All you wish to do is endlessly argue a fool's argument that breeds contentions. Every sincere individual for Christ on this forum ought to give you the boot. Let me be the first.

Pottersclay
October 10th 2005, 10:54 PM
I am sure glad God had the forsight to send a saviour, for my sake so I dont have to sort all this out to get saved, [Thank you Lord]
seems if it was left up to me I would just run away screaming :blush:
Great posts everyone keep it up and God bless.