Any Moral Realists Out There?

[Peter Kirby]

Hello,

I would like to hear from nontheists that subscribe to "moral realism" or "ethical objectivism," however you would like to define those phrases.

If that describes you, please state what your position is. Optionally you can state why you hold it.

If you wish to argue against moral realism, please spin off your own thread. In this thread I would like simply to hear from those who hold to this position. I think that this format will encourage more of these nontheists to respond. Thanks!

best,
Peter Kirby

[Peter Kirby]

OK, I will go first.

My current views are influenced by those of Andrew Lias, whose essay can be found here (original web site now offline).

http://web.archive.org/web/20010527204103/www.wco.com/~anrwlias/arcmoral/

I encourage you to read Andrew's essay. Basically, objectivists are right about what they claim, that not all ethical claims are of equal worth, and subjectivists are right about what they claim, that ethics are not writ into the fabric of the universe (or in heaven). Rather, based on certain human characteristics and why humans need ethics, there are certain ethical principles that are intersubjectively better than others.

By the way, I'd like to open up the thread to discussion from all nontheists, regardless of views on morality.

best,
Peter Kirby

[dizzle]

Sorry to interject, but just to encourage Peter this is exactly the sort of thing this area is for and is respectful of the Christian ownership of this forum.

[c0bra]

I think there's been some debate as to whether or not Michael Martin is a moral realist.

You can find all his articles on http://www.infidels.org

[dizzle]

Hey Cobra, I will let that post remain, but FYI this is the one area we set aside for nontheists to debate amongst themselves.

[Peter Kirby]

Michael Martin holds to an "Ideal Observer" metaethics. In other words, "What would Jesus/Buddha do, if he existed?"

Come on, nontheists, get out of the woodwork!

best,
Peter Kirby

[Nowhere357]

Dee Dee Warren:
but FYI this is the one area we set aside for nontheists to debate amongst themselves.
Can theists participate here, if they do so from non-theistic viewpoints? I think that would be a good thing.

Arguments can stand on their own merit. Many theists here have interesting and valid insights that don't require a belief in God, in order to understand.

[Passant]

Really liked the link Peter! Have you considered posting it in the philosphy section? and yes, I agree, morals can only be seen as a tool for social interaction, and to some extent, self preservation.

[C. D. Ward]

06-22-2003 @ 11:41 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=130140#post130140)
Peter Kirby:

Basically, objectivists are right about what they claim, that not all ethical claims are of equal worth, and subjectivists are right about what they claim, that ethics are not writ into the fabric of the universe (or in heaven). Rather, based on certain human characteristics and why humans need ethics, there are certain ethical principles that are intersubjectively better than others.

I consider myself an ethical egoist and the above would seem to come very close to my own personal beliefs. I can't access the article right now, but I'll be sure to read it later.

C. D. Ward

[Rose Raven]

Morality is not particularly complicated for me. Behavioural patterns that are likely to lead to a more stable society in which its members have relatively few complaints are more moral than behavioural patterns that are likely to cause misery and instability.

[Ben Franklin]

I haven't read anything about moral realism, but I'd like to inject my philosophy here, and see if it's close to the issue. I think every society needs some sort of ethics to follow, otherwise nobody knows what to expect. So yes, it's not related to any objective way of the universe, but it does relate to the psychology of humans, so it's enough.

[Queen]

I am too emotional to be a moral realist....I have a few guidelines in my life but this one is the most important to me:

Love, respect and compassion for all living beings on this planet and beyond.

That is my "commandment" and it sort of explains how I look at life and morality...

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[Peter Kirby]

10-27-2003 @ 10:19 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=257945#post257945)
Queen:
Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

Queen, what did you think of the Nicomachean Ethics (http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.html) by Aristotle? (If you read it once.)

(My personal ad runs, "Male seeks female who enjoys long walks with Aristotle and cold showers with Plato.")

best,
Peter Kirby

[Lazy Agnostic]

11-03-2003 @ 02:27 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=270140#post270140)
Peter Kirby:
Queen, what did you think of the Nicomachean Ethics (http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.html) by Aristotle? (If you read it once.)
That's a long read. I realize that "any philosophy which can be 'put in a nutshell' belongs there" but is there some primer or "philosphy for dummmies" or other shortcut for those of us with gaps in education?

(My personal ad runs, "Male seeks female who enjoys long walks with Aristotle and cold showers with Plato.")
Clever and fetching.

Mine read "Single white male, 37, seeks attracative woman for something cheap and superficial." You wouldn't believe the number of responses I got---some of them form women who could discuss Aristotle.

[beeblebrox]

I am also an ethical egoist. I first heard the term in college ethics class and it made so much sense that I have never thought otherwise.

Aside: I also believe non-theists should be able to participate here. We should just call it a "no preaching" zone or something. No talk about how things come from God, personal emotional stories about their relationship with Jesus, how atheists go to hell and need salvation, etc...

I do think a theist could see the rationale of how basic morality pops up in many different cultures as a tool for preservation and stability and that this cannot be soley attributed to the Judeo-Christian god. It even happens in the animal kingdom!

beeble

[Griggsy]

Fr. Griggs is a moral realist[objective moralist].