Does God Love His Enemies?

[seer]

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

We are to love our enemies. Why - to be like our heavenly Father. Who does love His enemies. Or do we think that God's love is no higher than the tax collectors...

[8320john]

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

We are to love our enemies. Why - to be like our heavenly Father. Who does love His enemies. Or do we think that God's love is no higher than the tax collectors...

"...and PRAY for those who persecute you..."

"Does God love His enemies?"

No. God's Love is only for His own...His enemies are to be destroyed from the presence of the Lord. Divine Justice demands their extinction. The universe will be cleansed of sin and that of necessity demands the elimination of the enemies of the Cross.

As for YOU and I...the matter is as stated by Yeshua, "love" your enemies by praying for them, that is the program for the interim, the commandment for the here and now that there may be no excuse when "that" Day arrives. Enemies under the canopy of time may in fact be saints in written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Once enemies now brethern.

We were once "enemies" of God but now brought near.

Col 1:21-22

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight


But also,


Luke 19:26-27

26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

It is Written.

[seer]

Does God love His enemies?"

No. God's Love is only for His own...His enemies are to be destroyed from the presence of the Lord. Divine Justice demands their extinction. The universe will be cleansed of sin and that of necessity demands the elimination of the enemies of the Cross.

As for YOU and I...the matter is as stated by Yeshua, "love" your enemies by praying for them, that is the program for the interim, the commandment for the here and now that there may be no excuse when "that" Day arrives. Enemies under the canopy of time may in fact be saints in written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Once enemies now brethern.

Again:

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Are you saying that God is no better than the tax collector that only loves those who love Him? And Christ is clearly saying that we are to be LIKE our heavenly Father - how by loving our enemies...

[8320john]

Does God love His enemies?"

No. God's Love is only for His own...His enemies are to be destroyed from the presence of the Lord. Divine Justice demands their extinction. The universe will be cleansed of sin and that of necessity demands the elimination of the enemies of the Cross.

As for YOU and I...the matter is as stated by Yeshua, "love" your enemies by praying for them, that is the program for the interim, the commandment for the here and now that there may be no excuse when "that" Day arrives. Enemies under the canopy of time may in fact be saints in written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Once enemies now brethern.

Again:

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Are you saying that God is no better than the tax collector that only loves those who love Him? And Christ is clearly saying that we are to be LIKE our heavenly Father - how by loving our enemies...

Again,

Isa 13:7-11

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Does God Love His enemies?

And the answer is that "enemies" that remain enemies to the end are not loved by God but abide under the wrath of God which issues in eternal destruction from His Presence.

God loves Hiw Own, those chosen in Christ and none others savingly.

[Hitch]

Does God love His enemies?"

No. God's Love is only for His own...His enemies are to be destroyed from the presence of the Lord. Divine Justice demands their extinction. The universe will be cleansed of sin and that of necessity demands the elimination of the enemies of the Cross.

As for YOU and I...the matter is as stated by Yeshua, "love" your enemies by praying for them, that is the program for the interim, the commandment for the here and now that there may be no excuse when "that" Day arrives. Enemies under the canopy of time may in fact be saints in written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Once enemies now brethern.

Again:

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Are you saying that God is no better than the tax collector that only loves those who love Him? And Christ is clearly saying that we are to be LIKE our heavenly Father - how by loving our enemies...
Im often overcome when reading about God's gentle lovingkindness toward the Phillistines.

[seer]

Does God Love His enemies?

And the answer is that "enemies" that remain enemies to the end are not loved by God but abide under the wrath of God which issues in eternal destruction from His Presence.

God loves Hiw Own, those chosen in Christ and none others savingly.

John, you still have not addressed the Matthew text. You just throw in other texts that contradict Christ's teachings. Now there may be a contradiction here - if so, say so.

But let me ask you another question John. Christ said that the law was summed up in two commandments. To love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. Does that include your non-elect neighbor? Did Christ love His non-elect neighbor?

[seer]

Im often overcome when reading about God's gentle lovingkindness toward the Phillistines.

Luke 6:35,36

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful."

We are to be kind and merciful to the ungrateful and evil just like God. You see, I do not believe that wrath and love are mutually exclusive. I love my son, but he has also, at times, fell under my wrath. God is "love." I do not believe He can violate His very nature when dealing with any creature.

[GoBahnsen]

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

We are to love our enemies. Why - to be like our heavenly Father. Who does love His enemies. Or do we think that God's love is no higher than the tax collectors...Good question. I'm not sure how much I really have my arms around this one. I tread softly anymore.

I do find it interesting how God deals with people differently. Some are left to nations with false religion and almost zero Christianity. Others are born into Christian homes. Some (maybe one, not counting Christ)are filled with the Spirit from the womb (John the Baptist). Some get warned by their wife (Pilate) others get a direct visit from Jesus (Paul).

What I do understand is that God does have a special people, His elect, and He is calling them out without failure, unto the Son. God still loves the non elect, but not salvifically, though He invites them to come as well...knowing they will refuse and God leaves it that way. No knocking them to the ground with blinding light.

Mystery to be sure.

[8320john]

Does God Love His enemies?

And the answer is that "enemies" that remain enemies to the end are not loved by God but abide under the wrath of God which issues in eternal destruction from His Presence.

God loves Hiw Own, those chosen in Christ and none others savingly.

John, you still have not addressed the Matthew text. You just throw in other texts that contradict Christ's teachings. Now there may be a contradiction here - if so, say so.

But let me ask you another question John. Christ said that the law was summed up in two commandments. To love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. Does that include your non-elect neighbor? Did Christ love His non-elect neighbor?

Since there is no contradiction in the statements of Yeshua we have to determine the love of man and the Love of God relative to man. Our task is to love our neighbor and "pray for him" that persecutes us, this falls into line with the teaching to agree with thine adversary (without compromise) lest we be hailed before the magistrate. In that comment there is a further teaching. Our "love" is not the same Love as the Love of God nor can it be that sinful man can be on the same level as the Almighty without a sense of representation by One Who is as God. By exercising forgiveness, a form of e love which man is capable within limits we are to be perfect even as our Heavenly Father is Perfect in the sense of long suffering.

Your question was:

"Does God love His enemies?"

And my answer is a qualified NO. God loves ONLY His own savingly and the remainder is devoted to eternal destruction. I see no Biblical problem in the God of the Bible who destroys His enemies. The interim issue is another matter contrasted to the "final solution," i.e., the destruction of sinners from the earth and the judgment of angels in the recreated of heavens and earth.

God will NOT love His enemies nor can He love His enemies in any conclusive manner, they who are the enemies at the last are to be destroyed. If that is Divine Love then God does in fact love His enemies.

I believe it is an assumption that God loves His enemies but I see nothing to reinforce the asseration that the Love of God is extended to His enemies save in a temporal manner, which is the teaching of Yeshua to His disciples that "our love" (such as it is or can be) at least models the Love of God in the granting of temporal blessings and the witholding of final destruction. God has exercised Divine Forebearance in the destruction of sinners but that is not to be an eternal forebearance.

"Does God LOVE His enemies?"

In the final analysis I have to say...NO!!

[seer]

Good question. I'm not sure how much I really have my arms around this one. I tread softly anymore.

I do find it interesting how God deals with people differently. Some are left to nations with false religion and almost zero Christianity. Others are born into Christian homes. Some (maybe one, not counting Christ)are filled with the Spirit from the womb (John the Baptist). Some get warned by their wife (Pilate) others get a direct visit from Jesus (Paul).

What I do understand is that God does have a special people, His elect, and He is calling them out without failure, unto the Son. God still loves the non elect, but not salvifically, though He invites them to come as well...knowing they will refuse and God leaves it that way. No knocking them to the ground with blinding light.

Mystery to be sure.

I wonder GB, did God love the Hebrews with a salvific love? Look what happened to most of them...

[seer]

I believe it is an assumption that God loves His enemies but I see nothing to reinforce the asseration that the Love of God is extended to His enemies save in a temporal manner, which is the teaching of Yeshua to His disciples that "our love" (such as it is or can be) at least models the Love of God in the granting of temporal blessings and the witholding of final destruction. God has exercised Divine Forebearance in the destruction of sinners but that is not to be an eternal forebearance.

Since you like to quote the O.T. let me prove that God did love those who were eventually lost.

Hosea 9:15,16

"All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters. Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb."


Isaiah 63:8-10

"For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them."

It is clear. That God considered these Hebrews His children, His people. In Love He redeemed them. And because of their behavior He "turned" to be their enemy. Which of course He wasn't to begin with. Just like the Hosea passage when God said He will love them no more. Of course meaning that He once did love them. I have a number of other O.T. texts along the same lines if you wish. This kind of undermines your position that God does not love,or didn't love, those who are lost...

[seer]

Since there is no contradiction in the statements of Yeshua we have to determine the love of man and the Love of God relative to man. Our task is to love our neighbor and "pray for him" that persecutes us, this falls into line with the teaching to agree with thine adversary (without compromise) lest we be hailed before the magistrate. In that comment there is a further teaching. Our "love" is not the same Love as the Love of God nor can it be that sinful man can be on the same level as the Almighty without a sense of representation by One Who is as God. By exercising forgiveness, a form of e love which man is capable within limits we are to be perfect even as our Heavenly Father is Perfect in the sense of long suffering.

John, I asked you a simple question. Did Christ love His non-elect neighbors. Yes or no?

[8320john]

Since there is no contradiction in the statements of Yeshua we have to determine the love of man and the Love of God relative to man. Our task is to love our neighbor and "pray for him" that persecutes us, this falls into line with the teaching to agree with thine adversary (without compromise) lest we be hailed before the magistrate. In that comment there is a further teaching. Our "love" is not the same Love as the Love of God nor can it be that sinful man can be on the same level as the Almighty without a sense of representation by One Who is as God. By exercising forgiveness, a form of e love which man is capable within limits we are to be perfect even as our Heavenly Father is Perfect in the sense of long suffering.

John, I asked you a simple question. Did Christ love His non-elect neighbors. Yes or no?

Will the Love of Christ toward the non elect say:

Luke 19:27

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me

There is only a temporal love toward the non elect, not an eternal relationship as with the elect.

Actually this is not a "yes or no" answer...this is not a court of American Jurisprudence but a theology forum.

NT:25 LOVE
b. with the accusative of the person, to have a preference for, wish well to, regard the welfare of: Matt 5:43

In that God makes the rain fall on the just(ified) and the UNjust(ified) it can be said that in that context He has regard for the welfare for the non elect relative to a temporal relationship and that is as far as it goes. As the Father has a (temporal) care for the welfare of the non elect it serves the purpose for the destiny of His elect, one is "perfect" in caring for the needs and welfare of the others (even enemies) in this temporal sphere that when "that" Day arrives they (non elect) will be without excuse.

Christ's "love" for the non elect is a qualified Love and can never be explained in the context of enduring Love that has as its ultimate purpose the eternal welfare of His saints.

As far as you and I are concerned, we have our marching orders. We are not judge and jury or executioner, we do what we are told to do and get on with the business at hand. Our "perfection" is representative tho we as renewed persons are capable (far beyond the non elect) of "loving" our neighbor, that is, seeing to their welfare, having a regard for their persons and families. But their end is the end as described in Scripture and cannot be over ruled nor amended.

[seer]

Will the Love of Christ toward the non elect say:

Luke 19:27

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me

There is only a temporal love toward the non elect, not an eternal relationship as with the elect.

Actually this is not a "yes or no" answer...this is not a court of American Jurisprudence but a theology forum.

NT:25 LOVE
b. with the accusative of the person, to have a preference for, wish well to, regard the welfare of: Matt 5:43

In that God makes the rain fall on the just(ified) and the UNjust(ified) it can be said that in that context He has regard for the welfare for the non elect relative to a temporal relationship and that is as far as it goes. As the Father has a (temporal) care for the welfare of the non elect it serves the purpose for the destiny of His elect, one is "perfect" in caring for the needs and welfare of the others (even enemies) in this temporal sphere that when "that" Day arrives they (non elect) will be without excuse.

Christ's "love" for the non elect is a qualified Love and can never be explained in the context of enduring Love that has as its ultimate purpose the eternal welfare of His saints.

As far as you and I are concerned, we have our marching orders. We are not judge and jury or executioner, we do what we are told to do and get on with the business at hand. Our "perfection" is representative tho we as renewed persons are capable (far beyond the non elect) of "loving" our neighbor, that is, seeing to their welfare, having a regard for their persons and families. But their end is the end as described in Scripture and cannot be over ruled nor amended.

So John,

Hosea 9:15,16

"All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters. Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb."


Isaiah 63:8-10

"For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them."

Was this love of God for His children, His people, only a qualified Love?

[seer]

In that God makes the rain fall on the just(ified) and the UNjust(ified) it can be said that in that context He has regard for the welfare for the non elect relative to a temporal relationship and that is as far as it goes. As the Father has a (temporal) care for the welfare of the non elect it serves the purpose for the destiny of His elect, one is "perfect" in caring for the needs and welfare of the others (even enemies) in this temporal sphere that when "that" Day arrives they (non elect) will be without excuse.

There is only a temporal love toward the non elect, not an eternal relationship as with the elect.


John, do you make this stuff up. Or are you parroting a commentary? God IS Love John. He could no more love just a little, than He could be just a little righteous.

[8320john]

In that God makes the rain fall on the just(ified) and the UNjust(ified) it can be said that in that context He has regard for the welfare for the non elect relative to a temporal relationship and that is as far as it goes. As the Father has a (temporal) care for the welfare of the non elect it serves the purpose for the destiny of His elect, one is "perfect" in caring for the needs and welfare of the others (even enemies) in this temporal sphere that when "that" Day arrives they (non elect) will be without excuse.

There is only a temporal love toward the non elect, not an eternal relationship as with the elect.


John, do you make this stuff up. Or are you parroting a commentary? God IS Love John. He could no more love just a little, than He could be just a little righteous.

God does NOT love the non elect eternally...he destroys them. His enemies are to be exterminated...eternally. God's Love is exemplified in His promise to expunge the universe of sin and evil...that is LOVE.

There is no need of a commentary, the Bible is clear irrefutable evidence that the end of sin (unrepented) is eternal destruction from the Presence of the Lord.

God is indeed LOVE (1John 4:8)
God is LIGHT (1John 1:5)
God is a CONSUMING FIRE (Hebrews 12:29)

God has many attributes (perfections)


2 Thess 1:6-9

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Sin and the enemies of God have an end...that is the LOVE of God.

[seer]

There is no need of a commentary, the Bible is clear irrefutable evidence that the end of sin (unrepented) is eternal destruction from the Presence of the Lord.

John, that does not mean that God did not love such people. A judge may send to prison someone He loves very much.

But again:


Hosea 9:15,16

"All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters. Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb."


Isaiah 63:8-10

"For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them."

Was this love of God for His children, His people, only a qualified Love?

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

And Jesus wept over Jerusalem, did he not love them, and want them to come to him? He says he did (Mt. 23:37), and yet they died in unrepentance, virtually all of them. Yes, he loved them, and sought their salvation, as he did here:

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

God bless you,
Lee

[seer]

Hi everyone,

And Jesus wept over Jerusalem, did he not love them, and want them to come to him? He says he did, and yet they died in unrepentance. Yes, he loved them, and sought their salvation, as he did here:

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

God bless you,
Lee

Good point Lee. Of course John would say that Jesus really hated those people. They were only crocodile tears...

[Lady Gooner]

God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.... He first loved us...He loves us with an everlasting love, and draws us with lovingkindness....we were once alienated from God and were enemies in our minds because of our evil behavior. But he has reconciled us by Christ's physical body through death to present us holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation..... when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

If God hated his enemies how come He loved the world so much to send His son to die for them ?
:huh:

[8320john]

There is no need of a commentary, the Bible is clear irrefutable evidence that the end of sin (unrepented) is eternal destruction from the Presence of the Lord.

John, that does not mean that God did not love such people. A judge may send to prison someone He loves very much.

But again:


Hosea 9:15,16

"All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters. Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb."


Isaiah 63:8-10

"For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them."

Was this love of God for His children, His people, only a qualified Love?

Yes...only a "qualified" LOVE that endures with much long suffering the vessels fitted for destruction....:

Rom 9:21-24

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The passages that speak of God's LOVE relative to forgiveness and deliverance is only for His Elect...the others are the goats devoted to eternal destruction. Yeshua did NOT die for the sins of ALL, He was the penal substitution ONLY for His OWN, those whom the Father had given Him, the others have NOT been given to Him and their end is extinction.

God's LOVE is indeed SELECTIVE LOVE, it is QUALIFIED love. Only the elect are corrected, forgiven, delivered, enabled, drawn, called, given eternal life. The LOVE of God according to His own revealed Nature demands the sinner (unrepented) die the death of the wicked and at some point simply be no more.

I have'nt the faintest idea where this sentimental NON Biblical "love" of God talk originated but I suspect it is a form of liberalized theology that is extant in the land today.

God's LOVE saves His own.
God's LOVE destroys His enemies.

Avenge not yourselves saith the Lord, I will repay. The hour of Divine Retribution will arrive one day and ONLY the elect will survive that hour.

[seer]

God's LOVE is indeed SELECTIVE LOVE, it is QUALIFIED love. Only the elect are corrected, forgiven, delivered, enabled, drawn, called, given eternal life. The LOVE of God according to His own revealed Nature demands the sinner (unrepented) die the death of the wicked and at some point simply be no more.

Remember John, in the texts I quoted, God call these people His children and His people. Yet you say that it was only a qualified love. If it only a qualified love for those, His children, what makes you think that you will fare any better? Perhaps His love for you is only qualified.

I have'nt the faintest idea where this sentimental NON Biblical "love" of God talk originated but I suspect it is a form of liberalized theology that is extant in the land today.

No John, the idea that God loved all men goes back to the earliest church fathers. The first three centuries of the Church, before the Church taught anything even close to Calvinism. Via Augustine...

[Nang]

God does NOT love the non elect eternally...he destroys them. His enemies are to be exterminated...eternally. God's Love is exemplified in His promise to expunge the universe of sin and evil...that is LOVE.

Amen.

This is a most profound and brave answer given in the face of the ignorant, wicked, and tiresome trolling that occurs daily on this site.

Nang

[Kevin Wayne]

No John, the idea that God loved all men goes back to the earliest church fathers. The first three centuries of the Church, before the Church taught anything even close to Calvinism. Via Augustine...


You're right.


I'm currently reading Athnasius' apolegetic on The Incarnation and it's nothing if not a beautiful treatise on God's love for His beloved human creation.

[seer]

[QUOTE=8320john

Amen.

This is a most profound and brave answer given in the face of the ignorant, wicked, and tiresome trolling that occurs daily on this site.

Nang

Nang, I have to say, after reading many of your posts - you have one of the most judgemental and hard hearts I have run across in many years.

[8320john]

God's LOVE is indeed SELECTIVE LOVE, it is QUALIFIED love. Only the elect are corrected, forgiven, delivered, enabled, drawn, called, given eternal life. The LOVE of God according to His own revealed Nature demands the sinner (unrepented) die the death of the wicked and at some point simply be no more.

Remember John, in the texts I quoted, God call these people His children and His people. Yet you say that it was only a qualified love. If it only a qualified love for those, His children, what makes you think that you will fare any better? Perhaps His love for you is only qualified.

I have'nt the faintest idea where this sentimental NON Biblical "love" of God talk originated but I suspect it is a form of liberalized theology that is extant in the land today.

No John, the idea that God loved all men goes back to the earliest church fathers. The first three centuries of the Church, before the Church taught anything even close to Calvinism. Via Augustine...

If they are His "people" then they fall under the umbrella of Divine Love and will be corrected, delivered, and eventually restored to favor. If they are not His "people" (all are His creation but not necessarily His people), they will be eternally destroyed. Yeshua spoke to those that opposed Him in John 8 as "of their (pater) father, the devil...meaning they were NOT HIS people even tho the offspiring (sperma) of Abraham. The expression, "His people" can have a two fold meaning as in:

"...He came unto His OWN and His OWN received Him NOT."

Surely those that are truly His are those given Him by the Father and they are drawn to Him and He gives them eternal life...the others are not so.

God's LOVE for me is not qualified in that He has drawn me to His Son by GRACE, thus I do not fall into the ever wondering class of persons that can never know if they are redeemed or lost. I fought that battle over 40 years ago and have no doubt as to my acceptance with the Most High by the representation of Yeshua Messiah...my King and Lord.

The destruction of the wicked has absolutely nothing to do with Calvinism, it is a Biblical concept and can never be amended.

God's LOVE will cleanse the universe of the wicked, they will be destroyed out of the heavens and the earth leaving them neither root nor branch.

It is Written.

For the sad face universalist who harbors the fantasy of the wicked being restored at some future time they will be even more distressed in the world to come (if they rise to meet it that is).

Back to the Word.

"...ye MUST be born again." -- Yeshua

[smaller]

For the sad face universalist who harbors the fantasy of the wicked being restored at some future time they will be even more distressed in the world to come (if they rise to meet it that is).

Christian Universalism holds to the eternal destruction of the "wicked" so you are ill informed AND mistaken about the identity of the "wicked."

[GoBahnsen]

I wonder GB, did God love the Hebrews with a salvific love? Look what happened to most of them...Paul reminds us that not all Israel was true Israel. And even in the Church today, not all Christians are true Christians, but the Lord knows His own and He keeps them.

It appears the goal is not to convert the entire population, at least all at once. Millions are left to die without Gospel light and zero opportunity to really think at all about Christianity being the truth. If God so wanted all could be born like John the Baptist.

If God so desired all would be confronted like Saul of Tarsus. Yet it pleases the Lord to allow wickedness to spread, wicked men to be born (which includes us all), I mean those vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, because it appears God has something in His purposes, to bring glory to Himself, that isn't so simple as trying to love everyone into a free decision for Christ.

God is love and He has displayed that and still does, but He also wants to display other attributes of His holiness and righteous character and this world affords Him that. We are left with a lot of head scratching along the way, but that's ok...we've been called to walk by faith and "reason" is her servant, not her master. We must guard against rationalism and remain with faith. Believing God whether we understand Him at every given point or not.

I find the non Reformed camps seeking to make sense out of God by use of themselves for models of normalcy, rather than crying with Isaiah "I'm undone...!"

[smaller]

Calvinsist and Arminian alike would probably affirm "the golden rule." "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

That is only UNTIL God shows up to burn other people alive forever.

That kind of love is not genuine.

That kind of love is deceptive and hypocritical.

Disingenuous deceptive hypocritical love.

What else could love be if love was left in the hands of mankind?

God really doesn't believe in "the golden rule" NOR does He require His Disciples to follow "the golden rule" NOR will GOD follow "the golden rule."

Is that conclusion really the result of "faith" that supposedly works through LOVE?

heh heh heh

I say Love surprises His enemies by rightly dividing them from their respective forms of darkness.

[Amazing Rando]

Stanley Hauerwas makes a good point when he says, "we're called to be like Christ, not to be Christ."

I appreciate that point, because it keeps the perspective on just who the Savior of the world is while at the same time reminding us of our duties as the people of God. Just as he called his followers to do, Jesus set an example for us by loving his own enemies- even the ones who nailed him to the cross. He asked his Father for their forgiveness.

Stephen followed in Christ's footsteps in Acts 7:60 when he prayed for the forgiveness of those who were stoning him. I think that's pretty awesome!

As a bit of off-topic trivia, can you name one of the the very, very few places in the NT where the Church is explicitly called to imitate Christ?

[smaller]

Stanley Hauerwas makes a good point when he says, "we're called to be like Christ, not to be Christ."

I appreciate that point, because it keeps the perspective on just who the Savior of the world is while at the same time reminding us of our duties as the people of God. Just as he called his followers to do, Jesus set an example for us by loving his own enemies- even the ones who nailed him to the cross. He asked his Father for their forgiveness.

I'll take the lack of addressing a 'name' as an opportunity to provoke to Love.

And you remind us of a very powerful point. In that Divine Act of forgiveness we see those murderers doing exactly NOTHING deserving of forgiveness YET we find EFFECTIVE forgiveness for them from Jesus' mouth.

So, are we to believe the NAYsayers to LOVE. That a man 'must do' X times X in order to procure this forgiveness?

So are we to believe the NAYsayers to LOVE. That the forgiveness that was granted at the expense of Jesus' physical death on the cross is NOT REAL or EFFECTIVE or ETERNAL. Never!

Jesus has enemies. He spoke to these enemies clearly IN MEN but not the same AS THE MEN they occupied. There are "strangers" that He does not know. Jesus surely ETERNALLY JUDGES. But all of these things do not require any serious student to see Mankind, all of them as God's offspring, in those roles of enemies and eternal judgment.

THERE ARE OTHER MORE LEGITIMATE ALTERNATIVES to see THE ENEMIES that are READILY AVAILABLE for those who are not blinded by their passionate desires to see other people burned alive forever.


Stephen followed in Christ's footsteps in Acts 7:60 when he prayed for the forgiveness of those who were stoning him. I think that's pretty awesome!

I find much significance in that event as well. One little seen note is that these "stoners" laid their cloaks at the feet of one named Saul.

Those uncloaked ones stopped up their EARS to LOVE and were being openly REVEALED BY THE WORDS OF STEPHEN, therefore they killed him. It was those SAME REBELS that were spoken to by Moses in THE DESERT and by THE PROPHETS! And these were likewise KILLED by these "rebels." Yet these manipulated ones similarly manipulated were also forgiven by Stephen.

I see both a vessel of destruction, an enemy of God

and

A vessel of honor, forgiven for their present slaveship to the vessels of destruction.

This is the way WE ARE ALL BUILT BY OUR MAKER!

AND IN THIS WAY THE WORD COMES TO LIFE and does HONOR to Himself in how He has formed US ALL. One will be taken. One will be left for ETERNAL DIVINE JUDGMENT.

Herein we may find our rightful calls for ETERNAL JUSTICE and LOVE FOR OUR FELLOW, MANKIND from The Mouth of God in Jesus Christ.

Saul saw these stoners UNWRAPPED from their cloaks. The significance of this may not have sunk in until later however but Saul/Paul was moved onto The Chessboard of Divine Love nevertheless.


As a bit of off-topic trivia, can you name one of the the very, very few places in the NT where the Church is explicitly called to imitate Christ?

Praytell?

The "Church" is comprised of many parts.

The servant is called to be "like" His Master, but Greater is not on the board for His servants (John 13:15-17):

James 3
1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2 For in many things we offend all.

The call is for those with ears for these matters and who is fit for such things?

Where are you, you who were supposedly CALLED?

When Jesus said He had nowhere to LAY HIS HEAD He was asking YOU to provide such a PLACE.

enjoy!

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[Amazing Rando]

I'll take the lack of addressing a 'name' as an opportunity to provoke to Love.

I have no idea what this means.

Frankly I can't make heads or tails of your post, smaller. Your post has lots of boldings, typing in all caps and other distracting features, but none to which I know how to respond.

[smaller]

I have no idea what this means.

Frankly I can't make heads or tails of your post, smaller. Your post has lots of boldings, typing in all caps and other distracting features, but none to which I know how to respond.

Then those posts are not meant for you.

You can see Love painted on the faces of the murderers of Christ and yet fail to see that they did nothing to merit same.

I don't get you either Rando.

[infide]

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

We are to love our enemies. Why - to be like our heavenly Father. Who does love His enemies. Or do we think that God's love is no higher than the tax collectors...

This is a really great point, seer. I cant help but think I mightve inspired it in the "Do we derserve..." thread. But even so, it absolutely cuts at the heart of the Calvinist/Arminian debate. Calvinists do deny that God is essentially a loving God.

In fact, has anyone even remembered this:

"8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Romans 5:8-10, NAS)

If we presume that Paul is calling the elect here "the enemies of God" but now they are justified, then the Calvinist MUST admit that God does LOVE His enemies at least in this case. But if God loves His enemies whom are elect, then why not love other enemies as well. That is, a Calvinist (despite the fact that they try!) cannot make a blanket statement that God "hates His enemies".

I think the real issue here might be one about temporality and the fact that God can love people at one time, but then hate them in terms of judgement. Thus, God may not be "outside time" like everybody seems to want to affirm.

peace,
jd

[Nang]

This is a really great point, seer. I cant help but think I mightve inspired it in the "Do we derserve..." thread. But even so, it absolutely cuts at the heart of the Calvinist/Arminian debate. Calvinists do deny that God is essentially a loving God.

In fact, has anyone even remembered this:

"8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Romans 5:8-10, NAS)

If we presume that Paul is calling the elect here "the enemies of God" but now they are justified, then the Calvinist MUST admit that God does LOVE His enemies at least in this case. But if God loves His enemies whom are elect, then why not love other enemies as well. That is, a Calvinist (despite the fact that they try!) cannot make a blanket statement that God "hates His enemies".

I think the real issue here might be one about temporality and the fact that God can love people at one time, but then hate them in terms of judgement. Thus, God may not be "outside time" like everybody seems to want to affirm.

peace,
jd


Just because God commands His creatures to love their enemies, does not mean that God must love all men.

That is a Universalistic mindset, pure and simple.

God hates and reprobates many souls in righteous judgment and justice.

Christians are commanded to love their enemies, for they do not stand as judge against their fellow men, like Christ. For a person who appears to us mortals as an "enemy" today, might be saved by the grace of God, tomorrow. We creatures do not know and have no idea who Sovereign God will save or who God will save or who He will eventually leave reprobate.

But God most definitely has the right and the legal reason to reprobate, hate, and express wrath against those who hate Him!

Nang

[smaller]

Christians are commanded to love their enemies, for they do not stand as judge against their fellow men, like Christ.

Who are you trying to kid?

Calvinism is nothing more than an open promotion of God's creating people to subsequently burn them alive in eternal conscious torment, and you have no compunction or obligation to love these people whatsoever unless there is the possibility of a speck in their midst called an "elect."

Calvinist doctrine makes me personally ill because it is so far removed from Love and it's proponents are blind to Love and every term called "all men" and "the world" are reduced to meaningless terms.

"God is the Saviour of all men, especially those who believe."

"These things command and teach."

I don't expect any of you "Calvinists" can stand and deliver the "goods" when your flag is the promotion of human torture. WE should be so lucky as to see your own promotions come upon yourselves but of course I would not wish to see that upon any person for any reason.

enjoy!

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[infide]

Just because God commands His creatures to love their enemies, does not mean that God must love all men.

Do you believe that God's commands are arbitrary whims of God's will (divine command ethics) or do you believe that God's commands are commanded for a reason, like we are supposed to be like God as this very passage suggests (Luke 6:35, read it)?

Further, on what grounds can you possibly state that God does not have to act morally? God is the most PERFECT moral being there is, and so, your suggestion that God need not love all men is very odd indeed.

That is a Universalistic mindset, pure and simple.

you havent proven that. The fact that God loves His enemies does not deny His righteous judgement through Christ. You could try to prove why there is entailment there.

God hates and reprobates many souls in righteous judgment and justice.

right, IN RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT which in and of itself means that there is moral reasons for God's hate and reprobation, therefore it is logically posterior to their acting immorally, and not prior. Thus God loves people and then based on how they act towards Him (faith?) He judges them.

Christians are commanded to love their enemies, for they do not stand as judge against their fellow men, like Christ. For a person who appears to us mortals as an "enemy" today, might be saved by the grace of God, tomorrow. We creatures do not know and have no idea who Sovereign God will save or who God will save or who He will eventually leave reprobate.

Do supreme court and district judges have an obligation to follow the laws which they themselves judge according to? Certainly you arent suggesting that ignorance is the basis of our love. It seems to me it is because we are supposed to be like God. But you say God hates people, so then we should hate people to?

But God most definitely has the right and the legal reason to reprobate, hate, and express wrath against those who hate Him!

so you admit that reprobation is based on the moral response of people? what of those who love Him? Are they enemies first?

your system is so disconnected - im just looking for a shred of uniformity here!

peace,
jd

[lee_merrill]

We creatures do not know and have no idea who Sovereign God will save or who God will save or who He will eventually leave reprobate.
Sometimes we do, though!

Romans 10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.

Yet most of them, at this time, he was saying, could not repent, "only the remnant will be saved."

Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel.

Is he not saying this of people who are being cursed and cut off? The reprobates? And yet he wants their salvation, and surely Paul is not being rebellious here, while writing Scripture.

But God most definitely has the right and the legal reason to reprobate, hate, and express wrath against those who hate Him!
Certainly, and there are different forms of love and hate, as in "a love-hate" relationship, where a person could be loved in one sense, and hated in another.

It seems, in regard to salvation, God loves those who reject him, and wants for them to come to him:

Luke 19:41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it ...

Blessings,
Lee

[Nang]

Luke 19:41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it ...

Blessings,
Lee

No He didn't.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee,, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Matthew 23:37

Jesus lamented over the fact that the religious fathers of the city Jerusalem actively worked (by killing the prophets sent into their midst) to prevent the "children" (elect) from being saved.

(However, the rest of Scripture teaches that God is good and full of grace, and their efforts were unsuccessful, for God indeed saved His remnant of "children" out of Jerusalem, overruling the wickedness of the rulers.)

Nang

[Assistant Junior Deputy Janitor Analogman]

Nang
Thats absolute nonsense. Thats another verse that shows Calvinism is suspect at best!

[Nang]

Do you believe that God's commands are arbitrary whims of God's will (divine command ethics) or do you believe that God's commands are commanded for a reason, like we are supposed to be like God as this very passage suggests (Luke 6:35, read it)?


I believe God's commands reveal to men and women what they should do and what they should be, as His creatures.

Further, on what grounds can you possibly state that God does not have to act morally?

I didn't.

God is good. God does not need to obey His Law, for He is the Law. We human beings are the ones who need to live under the Law, in order to discover our need of grace in Jesus Christ.


God is the most PERFECT moral being there is, and so, your suggestion that God need not love all men is very odd indeed.

You are suggesting that only love is moral. I suggest that the exercise of justice is also moral.

God is good to judge wicked men.

God is not obligated to love those who hate Him; but He is obligated under His own system of justice to deal with those who sinfully oppose His holiness and blaspheme His name.


Thus God loves people and then based on how they act towards Him (faith?) He judges them.

There is only one basis for whether God loves a person, or whether God hates a person, and that basis is whether the person abides by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And God determined before the foundation of the world who would be found "beloved" in His Son. (Ephesians 1:4-6)



Do supreme court and district judges have an obligation to follow the laws which they themselves judge according to?

Yes, they do, but they are mortals.

God is not mortal, but God.

You are trying to impose human morality upon moral God, whose righteousness, holiness, and goodness far transcends the human state.

You are trying to pull the Creator God down to a creaturely level.

we are supposed to be like God. But you say God hates people, so then we should hate people to?


We are supposed to conform to the image of Jesus Christ, and on Judgment Day we will stand with him to condemn the wicked. However, during this life, without know the end of all things or how fellow men around will ultimately be judged, we dare not judge prematurely, but are commanded to love (give the benefit of the doubt) our fellow men, including enemies, in the hopes that they too might be spared God's wrath.

We are not God to hate others.

But God is justified in His anger and wrath against those who unrepentantly hate Him.





so you admit that reprobation is based on the moral response of people?

No, I believe reprobation is the result of Godly election, conducted before the foundation of the world. However, I am not privy to who will ultimately prove to be reprobate, or not. I will not know until Judgment Day. Until then I am commanded by God to love all men, and share the good news of Jesus Christ indiscriminately with all I come in contact with, in hopes that many will be granted God's mercy and grace.


Nang

[Kevin Wayne]

You are trying to impose human morality upon moral God, whose righteousness, holiness, and goodness far transcends the human state.

You are trying to pull the Creator God down to a creaturely level.





Here is where I think Calvinism winds up banging it's head agaisnt a brick wall: when honest questions are treated as subversion, as if to question an idea about God is to question God himself. It's at this point that I say the opponents of Calvinism are wholly justified in seeing a red flag. There is nothing wrong with looking to God as a model for his own commandments. That's not trying to impose "human morality" on God at all (how can a commandment by God be "human?") But it is to simply recognize the Divine intent in His commandments to begin with.

[smaller]

Here is where I think Calvinism winds up banging it's head agaisnt a brick wall: when honest questions are treated as subversion, as if to question an idea about God is to question God himself. It's at this point that I say the opponents of Calvinism are wholly justified in seeing a red flag. There is nothing wrong with looking to God as a model for his own commandments. That's not trying to impose "human morality" on God at all (how can a commandment by God be "human?") But it is to simply recognize the Divine intent in His commandments to begin with.

Oh give it a rest. Your form of God is no better than Calvins.

Both Calvin's God and freewiller's God commands men to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

YET all of your respective "God's" burn people alive for all of eternity in conscious torment (or insert your favorite form of torture/annihilation.)

And you accuse the Calvinists of dodging?

[infide]

I believe God's commands reveal to men and women what they should do and what they should be, as His creatures.

And they don't reflect God's character in the sense that it is how God acts and what He believes?

Did you read Luke 6:35. Here, I'll make it easy for you:

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men." (NASB)

You cant ignore the message here. There is a direct connectino between loving your enemies, and the explanation that God Himself is kind to evil men. Just admit the obvious.

I didn't.

God is good. God does not need to obey His Law, for He is the Law. We human beings are the ones who need to live under the Law, in order to discover our need of grace in Jesus Christ.

And why Nang? Because the law reflects and describes God's perfect character of which man is nothing like. Man cannot live it, because man is not God. In other words, God DOES live the law, because it describes His character. Can you claim that God's very character can change?? well then, God must be obligated to act as God, since He is God.

You are suggesting that only love is moral. I suggest that the exercise of justice is also moral.

Didnt I make that point? Justice is moral when it is based on human actions and character, but not when it is at whim or arbitrary. True justice is moral, but Calvinistic justice is not.

God is good to judge wicked men.

right, unless of course those men could not help but be wicked. when you get down to it, it is impossible to have a meaningful concept of justice without libertarian free will.

God is not obligated to love those who hate Him; but He is obligated under His own system of justice to deal with those who sinfully oppose His holiness and blaspheme His name.

He may not be obligated to do so from justice, but God is obligated to be God, loving all, even His enemies (see Luke 6:35 above).

There is only one basis for whether God loves a person, or whether God hates a person, and that basis is whether the person abides by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And God determined before the foundation of the world who would be found "beloved" in His Son. (Ephesians 1:4-6)

So God loves those whom God chose to love. That doesnt sound just or right at all. You might as well say God hates those whom He chose to hate. Either way it posits a system of justice that is utterly deplorable. One that could never apply to the true God who is love.

Yes, they do, but they are mortals.

God is not mortal, but God.

He is not mortal, but He is moral. You cannot escape the fact that you believe God asks people to be moral when He is not. How could that be? your answer - humans are ignorant. If they really knew what was in man, they would hate just like God does. But thats precisely wrong according to the Scriptures - we are to love because God first loved us, even while we were still His enemies! The picture you paint doesnt sound like the God found in the gospel of Luke, or described by John the Apostle as being Love - as His very nature.

You are trying to impose human morality upon moral God, whose righteousness, holiness, and goodness far transcends the human state.

Notice, you just called morality "human" as Kevin was point out. It isnt Nang. Morality is based on God's character its heavenly, not human. Thats why we call acting morally, "godliness". His righteousness cannot transcend righteousness, you flat made that up.

You are trying to pull the Creator God down to a creaturely level.

how? by saying that God's commands arent arbitrary commands He imposes on creatures? i think not.

We are supposed to conform to the image of Jesus Christ,

So are you denying the deity of Christ, then?

and on Judgment Day we will stand with him to condemn the wicked. However, during this life, without know the end of all things or how fellow men around will ultimately be judged, we dare not judge prematurely, but are commanded to love (give the benefit of the doubt) our fellow men, including enemies, in the hopes that they too might be spared God's wrath.

So, like I was saying before, you believe that we should love because we are ignorant. Jesus said, however, we are to love so that we can be like God. Ill go with Jesus on this one.

We are not God to hate others.

So, you position is that humans should love more than God?

But God is justified in His anger and wrath against those who unrepentantly hate Him.

Again, righteous judgement cannot negate love. God loves, then judges. God hopes for repentance, he loves and extends love to all. Those who reject, He judges. The Arminian judgement makes sense and posits a God of Love. But the Calvinist system posits a God who HATES mostly everyone, except for those arbitrary few that He randomly picked. But even then, you must admit that God loves people who hate Him, as the Scripture says. So why limit His Love of enemies to only those who actually are saved?

No, I believe reprobation is the result of Godly election, conducted before the foundation of the world. However, I am not privy to who will ultimately prove to be reprobate, or not. I will not know until Judgment Day. Until then I am commanded by God to love all men, and share the good news of Jesus Christ indiscriminately with all I come in contact with, in hopes that many will be granted God's mercy and grace.

So lets recap then. You believe that God asks humans to love their enemies because they are ignorant of who to hate and who to love, even though the Scriptures clearly say that we are supposed to love to be like God. You believe that God hates more than He loves, and that for His own pleasure. How can that sit well with you? For what, Nang? So you can arbitrarily interpret Scripture in some way? There are other views which speak of God's true character.

peace,
JD

[Nang]

So lets recap then. You believe that God asks humans to love their enemies because they are ignorant of who to hate and who to love,


God doesn't ask us, He commands us to love all men, even our enemies. Why? Because we are not to judge the eternal fate of our fellow man.


even though the Scriptures clearly say that we are supposed to love to be like God.

Our obedience to love others has nothing to do with God judging wickedness. In fact, God is taking that judgment out of our hands. As He takes vengeance out of our hands. Judgment and vengeance against sin and evil is the Lord's domain.


You believe that God hates more than He loves, and that for His own pleasure. How can that sit well with you?

The only alternative is to believe that God loves all men and will not judge any. I find the Universalist view unscriptural and untenable. It is not even provable empirically.

So how does the reality that God judges multitudes of sinners sit with me? I accept by faith that God is right, for I believe God is always wise and correct.



For what, Nang? So you can arbitrarily interpret Scripture in some way?

Huh?

Are you denying a future Judgement Day? Are you denying God is just to punish sin? What's with a personal accusation against me?


There are other views which speak of God's true character.


What other theological views (other than Universalism) denies God's moral right to exercise judgment against evil?

How do you propose God eliminate sin, death, and the devil, without executing justice and deserved punishment?

Nang

[seer]

What other theological views (other than Universalism) denies God's moral right to exercise judgment against evil?

How do you propose God eliminate sin, death, and the devil, without executing justice and deserved punishment?

Again, Luke 6:35,36

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful."

God is kind and merciful to the ungrateful and evil. Even a righteous human judge can send to prision someone he loves. There is no cotradiction here...

[Kevin Wayne]

What other theological views (other than Universalism) denies God's moral right to exercise judgment against evil?

How do you propose God eliminate sin, death, and the devil, without executing justice and deserved punishment?

Again, Luke 6:35,36

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful."

God is kind and merciful to the ungrateful and evil. Even a righteous human judge can send to prision someone he loves. There is no cotradiction here...



Seer, you really should look at the article on Covenant Atonement I posted. Nang's question is essentaily rooted in the influence of Anselm's ideas on justice as they relate to the Atonement. In asking "How do you propose God eliminate sin, death, and the devil, without executing justice and deserved punishment?" we see echos of Anselmian notions that inisist God follow some earthly notion of justice. You'll see more where the theology you re encountering is coming from.

[seer]

Seer, you really should look at the article on Covenant Atonement I posted. Nang's question is essentaily rooted in the influence of Anselm's ideas on justice as they relate to the Atonement. In asking "How do you propose God eliminate sin, death, and the devil, without executing justice and deserved punishment?" we see echos of Anselmian notions that inisist God follow some earthly notion of justice. You'll see more where the theology you re encountering is coming from.


Tell me here - "How do you propose God eliminate sin, death, and the devil, without executing justice and deserved punishment?"

[Kevin Wayne]

Tell me here - "How do you propose God eliminate sin, death, and the devil, without executing justice and deserved punishment?"



I don't.

[GoBahnsen]

Here is where I think Calvinism winds up banging it's head agaisnt a brick wall: when honest questions are treated as subversion, as if to question an idea about God is to question God himself. It's at this point that I say the opponents of Calvinism are wholly justified in seeing a red flag. There is nothing wrong with looking to God as a model for his own commandments. That's not trying to impose "human morality" on God at all (how can a commandment by God be "human?") But it is to simply recognize the Divine intent in His commandments to begin with.I thought nang was doing an excellent job debating with infide.

I like how she said God isn't obligated to obey His law for He is the law. And however it may look to us, when we think we see God being evil (like letting Job get kicked around-we humans can never do that to the righteous-though we can turn an unrepentant sinner over to Satan-yet that might require Apostolic command and we don't have that anymore-but anyway...God let Satan at God's prized loved one-we dare not do that), we need to shut our mouths and let God play God, trusting He knows what He is doing and He isn't being evil at all.

You and Infide are being humanistic in your outlook. Not secular humanism, but Christian humanism and it isn't healthy at all. But that's just the way we Reformed see it and to prove it isn't a piece of cake. I think it's something the Spirit reveals. No amount of exegesis or sharp debate can open hearts.

John Murray himself couldn't convince you guys. He could talk in language you'll never comprehend (nor myself) and you'd just laugh him off...how much more do you all laugh off us wannabes?

Nang was spanking Infide nicely, so I thought I should voice that.

[Meh_Gerbil]

Is there any reason why G_d should love his enemies?
I'm not aware of a verse that says he does -- that is, specifically loves all of his enemies.

[infide]

Nang,

You disregarded my entire post, only to respond to my last paragraph. Why is that? Have you no rationale for your position? Just like your hermeneutic, it seems you pick and choose what to respond to. its not surprising.


God doesn't ask us, He commands us to love all men, even our enemies. Why? Because we are not to judge the eternal fate of our fellow man.

either way, your view is that God commands people to act more lovingly than Himself. sound like a God of Love to you?

Our obedience to love others has nothing to do with God judging wickedness. In fact, God is taking that judgment out of our hands. As He takes vengeance out of our hands. Judgment and vengeance against sin and evil is the Lord's domain.

Theres two problems there. One, the evil and sin present on the Calvinistic system are God's own doing, so why would He judge them? Secondly, it may be the case that our obedience to love others is not directly related to God judging wickedness - but you havent dealt with what it is related to - God's own Character. Several verses say we are to love in order to be like God.

We already mentioned Luke 6, now lets look back at Matthew:
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matt 5:44-48, NAS)

So, again, the obvious cannot be avoided here. Jesus says that we are to love, not because we cannot judge who is righteous and who is not, but because we are to be perfect like our heavenly Father. It seems Jesus agrees with my view, and not yours, Nang. What do you have to say about this?

The only alternative is to believe that God loves all men and will not judge any. I find the Universalist view unscriptural and untenable. It is not even provable empirically.

what are you talking about? Thats a plainly false dichotomy. I am not a universalist, and I believe God loves all, hopes for all, but ultimately judges based on their moral actions. Youre acting like Arminians have to be Universalists, dont you think thats getting into straw man territory?

So how does the reality that God judges multitudes of sinners sit with me? I accept by faith that God is right, for I believe God is always wise and correct.

But you dont even know if God is like that! You cant try to say that I am calling God wrong. I am saying God is good and right, and therefore what you ascribe to Him is wrong. you wouldnt be stepping off into voluntarism would you? If God does evil, does the fact that God does it make it good?

Huh?

Are you denying a future Judgement Day? Are you denying God is just to punish sin? What's with a personal accusation against me?

HELLO!? follow the conversation. I said several times already that God's judgement does not negate His love which comes prior. God loves all, extending love to all, but at some time judges those who did not receive His grace.

What other theological views (other than Universalism) denies God's moral right to exercise judgment against evil?

who is denying God's moral right to exercise judgement against evil? you have to stop this arguing with a fictitious caricature and false dichotomy that you perceive that people are either Calvinists or Universalists.

How do you propose God eliminate sin, death, and the devil, without executing justice and deserved punishment?

i dont.

peace,
jd

[infide]

I thought nang was doing an excellent job debating with infide.

maybe youre biased?

I like how she said God isn't obligated to obey His law for He is the law. And however it may look to us, when we think we see God being evil (like letting Job get kicked around-we humans can never do that to the righteous-though we can turn an unrepentant sinner over to Satan-yet that might require Apostolic command and we don't have that anymore-but anyway...God let Satan at God's prized loved one-we dare not do that), we need to shut our mouths and let God play God, trusting He knows what He is doing and He isn't being evil at all.

youre missing the point. If the moral Law is based on God's Nature or How God acts (following the Scripture which asks us to be Like God) then, how could God not act according to His Nature and therefore the Law? We arent thinking that God is being Evil, we are calling your view of God as inconsistant with what God is like. Therefore your view is wrong.

You and Infide are being humanistic in your outlook. Not secular humanism, but Christian humanism and it isn't healthy at all. But that's just the way we Reformed see it and to prove it isn't a piece of cake. I think it's something the Spirit reveals. No amount of exegesis or sharp debate can open hearts.

The Spirit reveals what GB? That humans arent human? What is so wrong with religious humanism? The fact that it stands in opposition to the sub-human status that Calvinism attributes to mankind?

Maybe its your heart and mind that the Spirit needs to open - ever consider that?

Nang was spanking Infide nicely, so I thought I should voice that.

:rofl:

peace,
jd

[infide]

Is there any reason why G_d should love his enemies?
I'm not aware of a verse that says he does -- that is, specifically loves all of his enemies.

Is there any reason for a dad to love his disobedient son?

consider the Scripture in question in my above posts.

peace,
jd

[Assistant Junior Deputy Janitor Analogman]

John Murray himself couldn't convince you guys. He could talk in language you'll never comprehend (nor myself) and you'd just laugh him off...how much more do you all laugh off us wannabes?

Correct. John Murray couldn't convince me. And the many brilliant non-calvinist theologians won't convince you. So what.

You and Infide are being humanistic in your outlook. Not secular humanism, but Christian humanism and it isn't healthy at all. But that's just the way we Reformed see it and to prove it isn't a piece of cake. I think it's something the Spirit reveals. No amount of exegesis or sharp debate can open hearts.

I guess the Spirit decided not to reveal the truth during the first 400 years of Christianity, huh. And that it wasn't realized until Beza completed it.
What an assinine statement of yours, GB.

[Meh_Gerbil]

Is there any reason for a dad to love his disobedient son?

consider the Scripture in question in my above posts.

peace,
jd

But not all people are G_d's sons.

[infide]

But not all people are G_d's sons.

In a sense, yeah they are. Paul preaches it this way:

"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, `For we also are His children.' Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." (Acts 17:24-31, NAS)

peace,
jd

[Meh_Gerbil]

In a sense, yeah they are. Paul preaches it this way:

"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, `For we also are His children.' Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." (Acts 17:24-31, NAS)

peace,
jd

You are mis-using that passage.

The idea of 'adoption' and being made G_d's sons via salvation doesn't make sense if everyone is already G_d's son.

I'm not of a strong opinion either way as far as G_d loving everyone -- I'm of the opinion that it is possible that there are those he choses not to love, but then I'm in a phase where I'm throwing out pre-conceived notions and questioning these kinds of things.

[Nang]

Nang,

You disregarded my entire post, only to respond to my last paragraph. Why is that? Have you no rationale for your position? Just like your hermeneutic, it seems you pick and choose what to respond to. its not surprising.

I quoted your entire post in my reply and answered with summary. I do not feel obligated to ~exegete~ your words, when they can be opposed in fairly general terms.




either way, your view is that God commands people to act more lovingly than Himself. sound like a God of Love to you?

Your summary of my response is inaccurate.

Mortals, by restraining from judging the ultimate fate of others, are not more loving thereby than God. They are restricted by God from delving in matters that they are not privy to. It has nothing to do with who is more loving, but with who is actually Sovereign over the matters and purposes of the Gospel.

For you see, the Gospel both saves and judges men. It is a two-edged sword accomplishing two purposes. But the sword is wielded by the Holy Spirit of God, not men who understand these things darkly.



Theres two problems there. One, the evil and sin present on the Calvinistic system are God's own doing, so why would He judge them?

Another wrong conclusion on your part.

God caused the existence of Satan and mankind, and God created evil as a consequence of either of these creatures transgressing His holy order.

God did not cause Satan's rebellion; nor did God cause Adam's sin; however, God had foreknowledge of both and chose to create both beings in order to reveal His love and grace found in His Son while eliminating all things ungodly and unholy at the same time.

In order for grace to be known, and evil to be justly dealt with, both necessarily were manifested in a material realm.


but you havent dealt with what it is related to - God's own Character.

I dealt directly with it. God is Sovereign and the execution of judgment, vengeance, and punishment are His domain . . .not the domain of mortal men.

Several verses say we are to love in order to be like God.

Well, I can think of verses that command us to be holy because God is holy, and to be merciful, like God is merciful, and long-suffering like God is long-suffering. But I can not think of any verses that tell mortals to love all men because God loves all men. You will have to provide the Scripture for me.




We already mentioned Luke 6, now lets look back at Matthew:
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;

Does this teaching imply that we might become sons of the Father due to how we love our enemies? No.

This verse is saying that when we obey the command to love all men, we prove and give evidence we are the sons of the Father who is in heaven. For the right reasons, too. Because the Father is in heaven and will ultimately judge all men. We are on earth and not privy to knowledge of the final destiny of those we interact with.






for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

This reveals God's temporal blessings upon all men while they live their earthly lives; by God's providence men are given the natural means of life. This sentence says nothing about God also loving those, who while living under these wonderful blessings, still shake their fists at their Provider with hatred for Him in their hearts.

It simply says that their end has not come yet, and we are to also be patient and loving with all of them, for out of this scenario of daily and temporal life, God will save some. And we do not know who they are that God will save.

Only God knows.

For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matt 5:44-48, NAS)

So, again, the obvious cannot be avoided here. Jesus says that we are to love, not because we cannot judge who is righteous and who is not, but because we are to be perfect like our heavenly Father.

I see the contrast between Christian and heathen being established by Jesus in this teaching.

The ungodly love their brothers, but do not have the capacity to love their enemies. In fact, they are cursed with enmity against the fellow man.

God gives this forgiving capacity (and freedom from the curse of enmity) to His children through His commands and presence of the Holy Spirit. Christians truly are able to love all men due to their trust and belief in God's wisdom and that God will work full justice at the end of time.

The Christian's ability and willingness to love all men in obedience to God, distinguishes them from unsaved humanity.

The word "perfect" used in this portion of Scripture is the Greek word, "katartizo" which denotes a completed and reparative work.

I take this to mean that we are to obey God to love all men, thereby distinguishing ourselves from the ungodly, by trusting in God's perfections (ability to completely adjust things in the right way); thereby reflecting God's perfections in our attitudes and actions.




It seems Jesus agrees with my view, and not yours, Nang. What do you have to say about this?

Well, I will attempt to practice perfection, and love you while we both wait for Judgment Day when we will find out from Jesus Himself.


I am not a universalist, and I believe God loves all, hopes for all, but ultimately judges based on their moral actions. Youre acting like Arminians have to be Universalists, dont you think thats getting into straw man territory?

The more interaction I experience with Arminians, the more convinced I am that their main gripe against Reformed Theology (Covenant Theology) centers in their unhappiness that God does not love all men equally. They are democratically-minded and equalitarians if not universalists, at heart.

They refuse to accept the multi-dimensional and Biblical revelation of God's character (consisting of both a loving nature and a holy nature demanding justice). They believe that God MUST love all men equally, and offer His grace commonly and equally to all in order to be a good God. They think they preserve the righteousness of God in this more democratic way. But they are making God's love conditional upon sinners' responses; and thereby they declare God's (supposed) universal love a failure because most do not love Him back in order to be saved.

All this reflects is an inability to submit to all that the Holy Scriptures reveal about God and therefore an inability to submit to the wisdom and will of God.

Arminians mostly do not realize they are rebelling against God by trying to remake Him in their own image and ideas of what He should be and act like, rather that simply submitting to the revelation He has given of Himself.

Arminians think they know what is righteous, better than the Almighty God.

It is a form of unbelief.





But you dont even know if God is like that! You cant try to say that I am calling God wrong. I am saying God is good and right, and therefore what you ascribe to Him is wrong. you wouldnt be stepping off into voluntarism would you? If God does evil, does the fact that God does it make it good?


I can only know God according to His Spirit's guidance through His Holy Scriptures.

Isn't "voluntarism" a humanistic philosophy? I will try to be careful not to step into that! :wink:

And God cannot do evil.

It is not evil for God to oppose (hate) or judge or punish or wield vengeance upon wicked men.



HELLO!? follow the conversation. I said several times already that God's judgement does not negate His love which comes prior. God loves all, extending love to all, but at some time judges those who did not receive His grace.

I am ahead of you in this conversation, for I already touched upon this.

But I will expound further, by giving my opinion that you are confusing eternal attributes of God, with temporal blessings from God.

God intimately knows a portion of humanity that was created in Christ Jesus. He has known them before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians Chapter One, and Proverbs Chapter Eight). Those God knows, God loves. God loves them without condition, for God knows and loves them because He loves His Son without condition. God extends His saving grace to these alone. This love and grace are eternal attributes (powers) that exist in the very nature of God.

Then, there are temporal blessings that are universally known by all men. The natural provisions of sun, water, food, etc. are temporal, not eternal by nature. Patience and mercies shown by God, even to the ungodly, are temporal by nature, and not eternal in purpose, except as to how God's patience and mercies extend to help the beloved elect.

The ungodly eagerly receive all these temporal blessings from God, but many continue to hate God even though He is good to give them an earthly life and
a share in His providence. The ungodly do not refuse God's saving grace, though, because it is not "offered" to them or meant for them.

God's love and grace is particular to those created and found in Jesus Christ, alone.





who is denying God's moral right to exercise judgement against evil?

You are, by demanding it necessary that God love all men. If God loved all men, Jesus Christ would have represented all men and died for all men, and all men would receive the grace of God and certainly be saved.

But this is not what the Bible teaches, or what human history discloses.

It is not realistic, but rebellious, for it flies in the face of God's revelation of Himself in the Holy Scriptures.

It is a form of unbelief.


you have to stop this arguing with a fictitious caricature and false dichotomy that you perceive that people are either Calvinists or Universalists.

There are only two kinds of people.

Those who believe God and those who do not.

Nang

[Assistant Junior Deputy Janitor Analogman]

Nang, Thank you for broadbrushing Arminianism and telling us what we think. It has been an enormous help.

[GoBahnsen]

There are only two kinds of people.

Those who believe God and those who do not.

Nang
True enough. The tough part and what we debate about here on Tweb is "what has God really said" at given difficult points. We all, professed believers, want to believe God, and all of us believe a certain amount of error in our ignorance. So what you said is true, yet it comes in various shades of grey, don't you think?

[GoBahnsen]

Nang, Thank you for broadbrushing Arminianism and telling us what we think. It has been an enormous help.Of course Tweb's real Arminian, I mean our member Arminian, would probably say you're not an Arminian.

[Assistant Junior Deputy Janitor Analogman]

Perhaps he would. Anyway........its always a good idea to get one's facts straight from the source. Ever read "What is an Arminian" by Wesley?

[Nang]

True enough. The tough part and what we debate about here on Tweb is "what has God really said" at given difficult points. We all, professed believers, want to believe God, and all of us believe a certain amount of error in our ignorance. So what you said is true, yet it comes in various shades of grey, don't you think?

Nope.

(I picked this idea up from John Owen, so I feel pretty confident! :teeth: )

There is only a Godly humanity (saved by the grace of God) and an ungodly humanity (declared reprobate by God).

That does not mean I am privy to who is who at this point in time. Only God knows.




Nang

[GoBahnsen]

maybe youre biased?
Tell me who isn't among the sons of men?

[infide]

You are mis-using that passage.

The idea of 'adoption' and being made G_d's sons via salvation doesn't make sense if everyone is already G_d's son.
I believe I said, In a sense.

Not in the sense of being heirs, as in being called "sons of God" in the sense Paul uses it (Gal. 3:26, 4:6, for example). But, all humans are children of God in the sense of He being our Father and Creator. I dont believe I am misusing that passage, if I am, why dont you tell us what Paul means by saying that we are all His children?

I'm not of a strong opinion either way as far as G_d loving everyone -- I'm of the opinion that it is possible that there are those he choses not to love, but then I'm in a phase where I'm throwing out pre-conceived notions and questioning these kinds of things.

He chooses not to love people for a reason not simply to pick people to hate. Don't let these voluntaristic determinists tell you differently. God is perfectly reasonable and rational.

peace,
jd

[GoBahnsen]

He chooses not to love people for a reason not simply to pick people to hate. Don't let these voluntaristic determinists tell you differently. God is perfectly reasonable and rational.

peace,
jdYes God is perfect in these attributes, it's when we make Him conform to our reason that we fail. His ways are not ours and they are past our finding out. Is that reasonable enough for you?

[john-philip]

Yes God is perfect in these attributes, it's when we make Him conform to our reason that we fail. His ways are not ours and they are past our finding out. Is that reasonable enough for you?
Where does the Bible say that God's ways are past finding out? And even if they are, why should we accept your appeal to mystery over an opposing appeal to mystery? For example, GoB is wrong in his posts because he is trying to conform God to his reasoning rather than accepting God's reasoning (which is passed finding out apparently?)

[GoBahnsen]

Where does the Bible say that God's ways are past finding out? Isaiah 55:8

And even if they are, why should we accept your appeal to mystery over an opposing appeal to mystery? For example, GoB is wrong in his posts because he is trying to conform God to his reasoning rather than accepting God's reasoning (which is passed finding out apparently?) I'm not saying this is a slam dunk. We all know it takes hard work and after that's done we still disagree, most of the time. For what ever reasons, we take our bent and we don't very much care for those who take another bent.

We are evil and desperately wicked...who can know us?

[john-philip]

Isaiah 55:8

Again I ask, where does the Bible say that God's ways are past finding out? :smile: Seems to me rain is pretty tangible.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we can figure out every detail, or anything close, necessarily, but using this scripture as a prooftext to show that God's ways are somehow "beyond us" is ironic, I think, given the context of the next few verses. Sure, God's ways are beyond us, but God sends the rain down.

[infide]

I quoted your entire post in my reply and answered with summary. I do not feel obligated to ~exegete~ your words, when they can be opposed in fairly general terms.

you must take me for a fool. Well, Nang, its there for everyone to see... post 45 on page 3. your first quote of mine is "So lets recap then..." which was the last statement of my very thorough post (44, p.3).

And no, I am not asking for you to exegete my words, i wouldnt want to be misinterpreted.

Mortals, by restraining from judging the ultimate fate of others, are not more loving thereby than God. They are restricted by God from delving in matters that they are not privy to. It has nothing to do with who is more loving, but with who is actually Sovereign over the matters and purposes of the Gospel.

maybe you are getting sidetracked. Okay, lets see if I can demonstrate how absurd you are being.
(1) God asks man to love all men.
(2) God elects a few of all men.
(3) According to Calvinism, God loves only those whom He elects.
(4) God loves few of all men.
(5) Therefore, God asks man to love all men, and He Himself loves few. (according to Calvinism! perish the thought.)

So which of these is not in accord with your view? And how was I not correct to say that God asks man to be more loving than Himself?

Another wrong conclusion on your part.

God caused the existence of Satan and mankind, and God created evil as a consequence of either of these creatures transgressing His holy order.

So you are saying that Satan is not under God's Sovereign control? How can something transgress the Holy order if creatures are not free to transgress His will? I suspect we are going to hear something about "two wills" or a "secret will" now?

God did not cause Satan's rebellion; nor did God cause Adam's sin; however, God had foreknowledge of both and chose to create both beings in order to reveal His love and grace found in His Son while eliminating all things ungodly and unholy at the same time.

Have you no concept of a doctrine of divine concurrence? anyway...So you dont believe that libertarian free will is incompatible with Divine Sovereignty, so why do you deny that all humans have libertarian free will?

I dealt directly with it. God is Sovereign and the execution of judgment, vengeance, and punishment are His domain . . .not the domain of mortal men.

you just dodged again! Just because God is Sovereign and executes (that is, does) those things, doesnt prove where and why He does judge, and what the Law is based on. Youre missing my argument by feigning ignorance. Kind of annoying, actually.

Well, I can think of verses that command us to be holy because God is holy, and to be merciful, like God is merciful, and long-suffering like God is long-suffering. But I can not think of any verses that tell mortals to love all men because God loves all men. You will have to provide the Scripture for me.

Luke 6:35 and Matthew 5 are sufficient to demonstrate the point. Other verses, like John 3:16 which support it from my perspective would be begging the question for my view.

Does this teaching imply that we might become sons of the Father due to how we love our enemies? No.

Well, I believe Jesus is saying that the ones who will be sons of God (spiritually) do emulate God. What do you make of these words of Jesus? what do you think they mean?

This verse is saying that when we obey the command to love all men, we prove and give evidence we are the sons of the Father who is in heaven.

it doesnt say that. It says "love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High". You've reversed it, for no reason. Can you explain your eisegesis?

The word "perfect" used in this portion of Scripture is the Greek word, "katartizo" which denotes a completed and reparative work.

impossible if the word is being applied to God. God could not have been "completed and reparative"ly worked on, unless you are denying the orthodox doctrines of God's Nature.

I take this to mean that we are to obey God to love all men, thereby distinguishing ourselves from the ungodly, by trusting in God's perfections (ability to completely adjust things in the right way); thereby reflecting God's perfections in our attitudes and actions.

Or it could be that we act according to Prevenient Grace and move in a direction toward sonship and true faith. Can you prove this view false?

Well, I will attempt to practice perfection, and love you while we both wait for Judgment Day when we will find out from Jesus Himself.

in the meantime, lets assess the issues and try to determine who's views are correct while it still makes a difference in terms of our theology.

The more interaction I experience with Arminians, the more convinced I am that their main gripe against Reformed Theology (Covenant Theology) centers in their unhappiness that God does not love all men equally. They are democratically-minded and equalitarians if not universalists, at heart.

Thats a quick move from equalitarians to universalists!!! Thats ridiculous, Nang. If one expects that God's righteous judgement would be just in terms of judging all people on some equal footing (and thus the judgement is actually fair and just) rather than unjust, that does not lead to the view that God would not eternally judge any. They are seperate issues, and it is surprising that you cant differentiate these things.

They refuse to accept the multi-dimensional and Biblical revelation of God's character (consisting of both a loving nature and a holy nature demanding justice). They believe that God MUST love all men equally, and offer His grace commonly and equally to all in order to be a good God. They think they preserve the righteousness of God in this more democratic way.

Thats not democratic. If God alone judges through Jesus Christ, that doesnt seem democratic at all to me. We are merely pointing out that a just judgement must be equal in terms of judging all equally and consistantly.

But they are making God's love conditional upon sinners' responses; and thereby they declare God's (supposed) universal love a failure because most do not love Him back in order to be saved.

How is that a failure? If God's desire was to save those who respond in faith, then God's love and grace saves EXACTLY who He desires, and for whom He purposed it. Thats practically the definition of success.

All this reflects is an inability to submit to all that the Holy Scriptures reveal about God and therefore an inability to submit to the wisdom and will of God.

And yet you dont submit to the Scriptures which reveal that God loves the whole world, that Christ died as a propitiation for all men, that Christ is the Savior of all men, and so on. This judgement of yours could cut both ways, maybe its time to check to see if there is a log in your own eye?

Arminians mostly do not realize they are rebelling against God by trying to remake Him in their own image and ideas of what He should be and act like, rather that simply submitting to the revelation He has given of Himself.

You mean just like the ECF, most theologians throughout History, including Eastern Churches and the Roman Catholic Church? Everybody, except for a small minority of loud mouths are rebelling against God?? Arminians love God and profess the Orthodox view of God and His Nature, and agree with most theologians in Church History who profess that man has free will, and is truly responsible for His actions, and that God's Law actually has a purpose.

Arminians think they know what is righteous, better than the Almighty God.

No, just apparently better than Calvinists!

It is a form of unbelief.

So is not believing the doctrines of Arminianism! Why do you stand in unbelief of Prevenient Grace, why do you oppose God?

I can only know God according to His Spirit's guidance through His Holy Scriptures.

So what about those whom the Spirit leads to Arminianism through the Scriptures? How can we evaluate which view is correct if both groups believe the Spirit to be guiding them to their own view?

Isn't "voluntarism" a humanistic philosophy? I will try to be careful not to step into that! :wink:

It's the view that God's will ALONE makes something moral or immoral. Its a troubling view that Calvinists often endorse, not just humanists.

And God cannot do evil.

By Nature, or because whatever God does is necessarily good?

It is not evil for God to oppose (hate) or judge or punish or wield vengeance upon wicked men.

right... but He has reasons for opposing and judging them, namely that their actions are not like His own, and their minds and hearts are far from His own.

I am ahead of you in this conversation, for I already touched upon this.
you dodged it.

But I will expound further, by giving my opinion that you are confusing eternal attributes of God, with temporal blessings from God.

God intimately knows a portion of humanity that was created in Christ Jesus. He has known them before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians Chapter One, and Proverbs Chapter Eight). Those God knows, God loves. God loves them without condition, for God knows and loves them because He loves His Son without condition. God extends His saving grace to these alone. This love and grace are eternal attributes (powers) that exist in the very nature of God.

Then, there are temporal blessings that are universally known by all men. The natural provisions of sun, water, food, etc. are temporal, not eternal by nature. Patience and mercies shown by God, even to the ungodly, are temporal by nature, and not eternal in purpose, except as to how God's patience and mercies extend to help the beloved elect.

The ungodly eagerly receive all these temporal blessings from God, but many continue to hate God even though He is good to give them an earthly life and
a share in His providence. The ungodly do not refuse God's saving grace, though, because it is not "offered" to them or meant for them.

God's love and grace is particular to those created and found in Jesus Christ, alone.

That was a good summary of how absurd Calvinism is. Just look at it from the perspective of those who "hate God even though...", they have inherited a nature (says Calvinism) that forces them to hate God. They MUST hate God. And only by this "saving Grace" could they love God and be acceptable to Him, but God withholds this grace. why? we dont know - He just does.

Sure you can go on and on about how God gives "temporal blessings" to all, but none of these enable them to turn to God and repent. He might as well give none of it at all! According to your view, these things cement their eternal reprobation in stone because they receive these things and yet by nature must hate God. So, no, Nang I am not confusing God's character with temporal blessings (does that even make sense, really?) I am pointing out that your view is fundamentally flawed if not outrightly absurd and blasphemous.

You are, by demanding it necessary that God love all men. If God loved all men, Jesus Christ would have represented all men and died for all men, and all men would receive the grace of God and certainly be saved.

You were right up to the "certainly be saved..." part. why must it be certain? it could be conditional - a view which you obviously havent even considered.

But this is not what the Bible teaches, or what human history discloses.

the Arminian view is consistant with both.

It is not realistic, but rebellious, for it flies in the face of God's revelation of Himself in the Holy Scriptures.

It is a form of unbelief.

unless Arminianism is correct, then you are the one in unbelief.

There are only two kinds of people.

Those who believe God and those who do not.


Well I will pray that God will teach you to believe all His Words.

peace,
jd

[Kevin Wayne]

I thought nang was doing an excellent job debating with infide.

I like how she said God isn't obligated to obey His law for He is the law. And however it may look to us, when we think we see God being evil (like letting Job get kicked around-we humans can never do that to the righteous-though we can turn an unrepentant sinner over to Satan-yet that might require Apostolic command and we don't have that anymore-but anyway...God let Satan at God's prized loved one-we dare not do that), we need to shut our mouths and let God play God, trusting He knows what He is doing and He isn't being evil at all.

You and Infide are being humanistic in your outlook. Not secular humanism, but Christian humanism and it isn't healthy at all. But that's just the way we Reformed see it and to prove it isn't a piece of cake. I think it's something the Spirit reveals. No amount of exegesis or sharp debate can open hearts.

John Murray himself couldn't convince you guys. He could talk in language you'll never comprehend (nor myself) and you'd just laugh him off...how much more do you all laugh off us wannabes?

Nang was spanking Infide nicely, so I thought I should voice that.





You know, GB... the Anabaptists were "s