Law and Grace

[7thangel]

I have this question posted on Colossian's thread. But I believe it is met that everyone who claim to know God's doctrine should have and answer to these questions:

Can all of you explain to me why the law of Moses is not of grace and truth? And why is the need for Christ to fulfill them?



Colossians' response:
The law is not grace because it is punitive: all law contains penalty for non-compliance: that is the reason it is called "law".

The law is not truth, because truth is not an idea, but a Person, the Person of Jesus Christ, who said "I am the Truth". No set of ideas or precepts can sum to a person, and no person can be divided into ideas or precepts, therefore the law cannot sum to Jesus Christ.
The law is manifested as not being the truth in that it binds people to obligation and comformity, whereas Jesus told us that the Truth shall set us free.
The law is further manifested as not being the Truth in that, in the law there is complete knowledge of sin, whereas in Christ (who is Himself the Truth) there is no knowledge of sin.


Theonomy response:
"For the law was given by Moses, BUT grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" is an incorrect translation. There is no conjunction in this sentence, hence "but" is an insertion out of thin air, not connected to anything in the Greek sentence. For example, the NIV translators correctly translate it as follows: "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

The KJV admits this too, putting the word "but" in italics, however given the way the word puts a specific spin on the sentence, it should not have been added by them at all.

The negative affect this word has is that it makes it appear as though law is graceless, or that grace is lawless, when really this verse poresents no such contrast, but rather a simple historical outline. In fact, if we quote a little more than just one verse, it becomes very clear that no such contrast is being set up:

Scripture Verse: 15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’" 16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


Going from Moses to Christ is going from one blessing to another blessing, one good, and the next even greater, surpassingly good.


Unpastorised's response:
Hello 7th angel
Ill try and keep this short. The coming of Christ was written in the law of Moses. Jesus came to fulfill what was written of Him.

HEBREWS 10 [1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:7-10
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

I dont think i can say it any better than the scriptures. The blood of animals was not enough. The blood of Christ is.

PS- I wanna add that the shadow of Christ was the various offerings (blood,meat and drink) which were done on feast days, new moons and the sabbath days (the law contained in the ordinances). The shadow was NOT those days but the offerings made on those days. Nowhere in scripture will you find that the sabbath day has magically turned into Jesus.



I can see very diverse answers, so I would like to know everybody who are interested to share their answers. I guess knowledge of the question spell one's ignorance on the truth of God's word.


peace,
7thangel

[Vivian]

I have this question posted on Colossian's thread. But I believe it is met that everyone who claim to know God's doctrine should have and answer to these questions:

Can all of you explain to me why the law of Moses is not of grace and truth? And why is the need for Christ to fulfill them?

I can see very diverse answers, so I would like to know everybody who are interested to share their answers. I guess knowledge of the question spell one's ignorance on the truth of God's word.


peace,
7thangel


Hello 7thangel,

I have a reply but thought to first ask what you mean by I guess knowledge of the question spell one's ignorance on the truth of God's word.

vivian

[7thangel]

Hello 7thangel,

I have a reply but thought to first ask what you mean by I guess knowledge of the question spell one's ignorance on the truth of God's word.

vivian

If one does not know the right answer, then he/she does not know the gospel. Paul had taken a great lenght of speaking about the subject of law and grace for it is the core of the gospel, that Christ saved us from the curse of the law.

[betzerg]

If one does not know the right answer, then he/she does not know the gospel. Paul had taken a great lenght of speaking about the subject of law and grace for it is the core of the gospel, that Christ saved us from the curse of the law.

Paul does not tell us that Christ freed us from the "blessings" of the law....only the curses. If you read the book of Dueteronomy you will see that obedience and disobedience results in "blessings" and "curses". (read chapter 27 and chapter 28).

Paul calls the "LAW" "holy right and good"....but we were all under the curse of breaking the law...we were living under a curse...especially the goyim...the nations who did not know the laws of G-d.

It was G-ds mercy and grace that gave us the Torah and the Ten Words.
It was G-ds mercy and grace that forgave Israel when they transgressed the laws.
It was G-d's mercy and grace that gave us YESHUA as a substitutionary atonement for our sins..who was the bringer of the new covenant ...so that the laws would be written on our hearts...to keep them..so that we would no longer be under the curse of breaking the laws of G-d.

Shalom,

BETZER

[7thangel]

Paul does not tell us that Christ freed us from the "blessings" of the law....only the curses. If you read the book of Dueteronomy you will see that obedience and disobedience results in "blessings" and "curses". (read chapter 27 and chapter 28).

Paul calls the "LAW" "holy right and good"....but we were all under the curse of breaking the law...we were living under a curse...especially the goyim...the nations who did not know the laws of G-d.

It was G-ds mercy and grace that gave us the Torah and the Ten Words.
It was G-ds mercy and grace that forgave Israel when they transgressed the laws.
It was G-d's mercy and grace that gave us YESHUA as a substitutionary atonement for our sins..who was the bringer of the new covenant ...so that the laws would be written on our hearts...to keep them..so that we would no longer be under the curse of breaking the laws of G-d.

Shalom,

BETZER

The law says:

Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

That is the reason why James said, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

The law is very clear that "all the words" does not merely refer to the ten commandments, but of all the laws given to Moses for the Israelites. And no one, for sure, can fulfill all those words of the law. So there is no way a person can be blessed by the law. Thus Paul himself said, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

.

[Vivian]

I have this question posted on Colossian's thread. But I believe it is met that everyone who claim to know God's doctrine should have and answer to these questions:

Can all of you explain to me why the law of Moses is not of grace and truth? And why is the need for Christ to fulfill them?

I can see very diverse answers, so I would like to know everybody who are interested to share their answers. I guess knowledge of the question spell one's ignorance on the truth of God's word.


peace,
7thangel

Hello 7thangel.

If I may be blunt, for I am unable to find any other words to express this…

Jesus did not come into this world to abolish or to fulfill the Law of Moses, but to fulfill the Law of Love. This is the Royal Law that Paul spoke, the Higher Law.

The Law of Moses is the law of this world, the law of reaping what you sow, the law of cause and effect. It is under this law that we become indebted and so bound to this world and unable to go Home to God’s Kingdom.

This is the law that Jesus referred to as your law when speaking to the Jewish leadership for the law of reaping what you sow was not His Law. His Law was the Higher Law of Love.

While salvation is theoretically possible under the Law of Moses, it is highly improbably given the darkness of self that engulfs this world.

This is why God has given us His Grace according to His Royal Law. Salvation by this law has been available to mankind since the beginning, it is not something new. Israel knew that salvation was not by the Law of Moses but by the Law of Grace which is evidenced in their songs of praise to God’s Mercy and in their extra Biblical teachings.

Israel was given the Law of Moses as a teaching tool, offered to a primitive nomadic tribe to explain their indebtedness and guide them into understanding of the Greater Law of Love, using practices and imagery they could understand. But they fell away from God, losing connection with Him and so their understanding became distorted and a tool given by a loving God became a demand for obedience given by a ruthless God.

And so Jesus did not come into this world to create a Way of salvation for mankind through the fulfilling of the Law of Moses, but came to show us the Way of salvation through the fulfilling of the Law of Love. He did as all men must do. When we fulfill the Higher Law of Love, we are no longer bound by the lower law of reaping what you sow.

The Law of Grace, though, requires action on our part. It requires repentance. This is why Jesus said deny self, pick up your cross and follow Me, all the way to crucifixion of self. Not - sit back, have a beer, and watch Me. Without letting go of this world, God cannot save us, even by His Grace. He has given His children free will and according to the Law of Free Will, He cannot force us to leave this world behind and come Home until we choose to.




vivian

[7thangel]

Hello 7thangel.

If I may be blunt, for I am unable to find any other words to express this…

Jesus did not come into this world to abolish or to fulfill the Law of Moses, but to fulfill the Law of Love. This is the Royal Law that Paul spoke, the Higher Law.

All the law is fulfilled in love, how then can be fulfilling the law of Moses is not fulfilling love?

And what is the difference of just simply saying love to higher love?

The Law of Moses is the law of this world, the law of reaping what you sow, the law of cause and effect. It is under this law that we become indebted and so bound to this world and unable to go Home to God’s Kingdom

This is the law that Jesus referred to as your law when speaking to the Jewish leadership for the law of reaping what you sow was not His Law. His Law was the Higher Law of Love.

In whatever perspective, if we are being justified by obedience, then all laws are the law of reaping what you sow.

While salvation is theoretically possible under the Law of Moses, it is highly improbably given the darkness of self that engulfs this world.

That is the reason why we have to be changed into a "new man." But still, if the law of Moses is fulfilled in love, why the need to be not under it?

This is why God has given us His Grace according to His Royal Law. Salvation by this law has been available to mankind since the beginning, it is not something new. Israel knew that salvation was not by the Law of Moses but by the Law of Grace which is evidenced in their songs of praise to God’s Mercy and in their extra Biblical teachings.

I do not know how would the law of Moses becomes different to the Royal law. Can you explain to me why they are not the same?

Israel was given the Law of Moses as a teaching tool, offered to a primitive nomadic tribe to explain their indebtedness and guide them into understanding of the Greater Law of Love, using practices and imagery they could understand. But they fell away from God, losing connection with Him and so their understanding became distorted and a tool given by a loving God became a demand for obedience given by a ruthless God.

According to Paul, we were born really in the earthly image, and never possessed a the knowledge of the mystery, not until Christ came and revealed it. So what are you talking about, as if, there was a time that the children of God were already enlightened and then fell away?

And so Jesus did not come into this world to create a Way of salvation for mankind through the fulfilling of the Law of Moses, but came to show us the Way of salvation through the fulfilling of the Law of Love. He did as all men must do. When we fulfill the Higher Law of Love, we are no longer bound by the lower law of reaping what you sow.

But then, obedience/disobedience of what Christ showed us, will result of the same principle of reaping what we sow, don't you agree?

The Law of Grace, though, requires action on our part. It requires repentance. This is why Jesus said deny self, pick up your cross and follow Me, all the way to crucifixion of self. Not - sit back, have a beer, and watch Me. Without letting go of this world, God cannot save us, even by His Grace. He has given His children free will and according to the Law of Free Will, He cannot force us to leave this world behind and come Home until we choose to.

vivian

I do not agree that they who obey the law of Moses do not deny themselves. Why do you think that those who obey the law of Moses do not deny themselves? on what reasons?

[Vivian]

All the law is fulfilled in love, how then can be fulfilling the law of Moses is not fulfilling love?

And what is the difference of just simply saying love to higher love?

In whatever perspective, if we are being justified by obedience, then all laws are the law of reaping what you sow.

That is the reason why we have to be changed into a "new man." But still, if the law of Moses is fulfilled in love, why the need to be not under it?

I do not know how would the law of Moses becomes different to the Royal law. Can you explain to me why they are not the same?

Thank- you, 7thangel. I always feel inspiration when there is opportunity to share.

I think the answers to your first questions will be found in the answer to your last.

In Creation, Holy Laws are built in, sort of like our law of gravity, that guide creation from beginning to end. These laws are carried forth in God’s Word, His Voice, His Breath and represent His Nature assuring that the outcome of His Creation will be as intended.

In the fallen realms, His Laws have a different appearance. What comes to mind is Light passing through a prism. On one side, the Light is One, Perfect, White, but when it passes through it becomes splintered into differing colors. This is a picture of God’s Laws being deflected into the fallen realms.

In the Divine Realms we are not separate selfs as we are here, seeking to survive and to satisfy our desires. Divine Creation is like a womb, where everything needed for survival is just there. We have no concern for our separate self, but are always in a service mindset. We only love God and others, feeling no separation, for all is One. (John 17) And actually, it is God's Love that flows through us as empty vessels, as the temple of His Spirit.

Do you feel the magnitude, 7thangel, of fulfilling the Law of Love? Do you see that such fulfillment can only occur when we are as God’s divine Children with no trace of selfishness in us?

In the fallen realms, we function from a separate self perspective, and so God’s Law is reflected in relation to the self – mercy and judgment for example. This perspective of God’s Law is not had by His unfallen children.

The Law of Moses, then, is God’s Law reflected – or deflected like with a prism – into this fallen realm for a particular people at a particular place and time. And as we see with Israel, it is impossible for self focused humans to obey fully. We cannot, as fallen beings, Love so that we fulfill the Law of Moses or any deflection, much less the Law of God.

The only way to fulfill the Law of Love is to become as God’s divine Children. Jesus came to show us the Way.

To be as God’s divine Children, we must repent of our life as a selfish separate self. We must deny that self, pick up our cross (which is the needy selfish self) and carry it to Calvary, where, by the power of Grace, the selfish self with all its wants and desires will be crucified. Only then will the child of God, the new man, that has been held captive by the old man, the selfish self, be free.

And only in freedom from our selfish self can we be empty vessels so that through us passes God's Love, in complete harmony and fulfillment of God’s Law, enabling us to enter into His Kingdom joining in Bliss with His unfallen children.

(Did I answer all of your questions from above?)


According to Paul, we were born really in the earthly image, and never possessed a the knowledge of the mystery, not until Christ came and revealed it. So what are you talking about, as if, there was a time that the children of God were already enlightened and then fell away?

Can you share the verses you are referring to? That would help me in answering this question more fully.

But then, obedience/disobedience of what Christ showed us, will result of the same principle of reaping what we sow, don't you agree?

Reaping what you sow is only a deflection of God’s Law, and once we are reborn as God’s Children, after the crucifixion of our selfish self, we are no longer subject to the fallen laws. For we no longer accrue debt, we no longer think and act for the benefit of self.

I do not agree that they who obey the law of Moses do not deny themselves. Why do you think that those who obey the law of Moses do not deny themselves? on what reasons?

Certainly, any can deny self and the Law of Moses was given to teach Israel to walk this same Path that Jesus walked. As the author of Hebrews said, all they lacked was faith.

When one starts to deny self, or perhaps even as it is reflected upon, one can see how the Law of Moses begins to no longer apply. These laws are for fallen selfish beings who by nature are concerned for their own welfare and comfort.


viv