The 3RD question the Arminian can't answer

[Colossians]

Like the 2nd question, this question depends on the verse in 1 John 5:14,15, which says: "if we ask anything according to His will....we know we have the petitions that we desired of Him".

The Arminian states that it is God's will for every person to be saved.



The question:
"Given that you say it is God's will for every person to be saved, and given that 1 John 5:14,15 tells us that if we ask according to God's will, we will definitely receive what we ask for, how is it that you know deep down in your heart that God will not grant you your desire if you ask for every man to be saved?"

[seer]

Like the 2nd question, this question depends on the verse in 1 John 5:14,15, which says: "if we ask anything according to His will....we know we have the petitions that we desired of Him".

The Arminian states that it is God's will for every person to be saved.



The question:
"Given that you say it is God's will for every person to be saved, and given that 1 John 5:14,15 tells us that if we ask according to God's will, we will definitely receive what we ask for, how is it that you know deep down in your heart that God will not grant you your desire if you ask for every man to be saved?"

Of course Colossians, you know there is a wild card in this model. The ability of man to resist God's overtures.

Israel is a prime example:

Romans 10:21

But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

Acts 7:51

"You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you."

[dizzle]

that was a very weak challenge Col - have the others been this bad [anyone got a skunk smiley?]

[Bill the Cat]

that was a very weak challenge Col - have the others been this bad [anyone got a skunk smiley?]
:skunk2:

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

:ale:

[Xavier]

The question:
"Given that you say it is God's will for every person to be saved, and given that 1 John 5:14,15 tells us that if we ask according to God's will, we will definitely receive what we ask for, how is it that you know deep down in your heart that God will not grant you your desire if you ask for every man to be saved?"

Surprise of surprises... God wills that man be free to decide.

Next question.

[themuzicman]

Surprise of surprises... God wills that man be free to decide.

Next question.
Sheesh, he's 0-3, now. You'd think he'd quit while he was behind.

You know, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging?

:gravedigger:

[Kevin Wayne]

This would be a perfect point for Lee Merrill to come in & talk about Paul praying for the non-elect. Lee, you listening?

[Xmansmommy]

How do you reconcile the passages yourself Colossians?

[Colossians]

Seer has said that the answer is God can't override man's will.
That is no answer, only a reassertion of what he believes.

The task remains to reconcile the passage of 1 John with your assertion that it is God's will for all to be saved.

So it is back to the Arminians to come up with a better answer than a watering down of "anything" to "anything that God can do". There is no exception to the "anything" we ask of 1 John: "anything" means "anything".
God was not remiss when he wrote 1 John. What is the use of saying "anything" if it excludes one of the most important things?

[seer]

Seer has said that the answer is God can't override man's will.
That is no answer, only a reassertion of what he believes.

It's not my answer, it's scripture:

Romans 10:21

But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

Acts 7:51

"You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you."

I have about a dozen more texts along the same line Colossians. Would you like them? Of course God could force men to love Him if He wanted - but does He want to - would that be love?

Romans 10:1,2

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."

Here Paul is praying for the Christ rejecting Jews. Was his prayer according to the will of God, Colossians?

[Colossians]

Seer,

You don't seem to understand the nature of proof of position.
You don't prove your position to be true by simply quoting scriptural accounts of events.

You would need to show the non-emergence of an event that was prayed for, and prayed for in accord with God's will, or the converse. That is, you need to prove that the two simultaneous equations (1. God's will is that all be saved; 2. God grants us our petitions if they are in accord with His will), do not sum together to produce the result: "If we pray for the salvation of all men, they will be saved".
Effectively you would have to demonstrate that God is a liar when he says that we shall WITHOUT EXCEPTION receive the petitions we ask for if we ask according to God's will.

The Calvinist is not under such compulsion: he knows it is not God's will for all to be saved, therefore he does not pray this way, nor does he therefore contradict the absolute certainty of 1 John.
You do.






As for your example of Romans ("Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved"), you need to be a little more studious in your approach. The use of the word "might" is subjunctive: it is the mood of doubt. So it is not the example you suppose.

As for your statement “Of course God could force men to love Him if He wanted”
You haven’t thought this one through either. Love is by definition, an earned response. So God cannot force love, for God is love.






A little more thinking Mr Seer.

[seer]

As for your example of Romans ("Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved"), you need to be a little more studious in your approach. The use of the word "might" is subjunctive: it is the mood of doubt. So it is not the example you suppose.

Yes! There is a "might" in there. It is still Paul's desire that they be saved. Don't be dishonest Colossians, he makes the same point in 9:3:

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh."

So again, was Paul praying according to the will of God - yes or no...

[Colossians]

You don't understand the subjunctive do you.

There is a world of difference between "my prayer is that they will be saved" (indicative) and "my prayer is that they might be saved" (subjunctive).

So take some grammar lessons first, and then come back to me with a proper example.

Even more importantly, explain why God would give us 1 John, knowing one of the greatest possible fulfillments of it was denied us, without telling us.

[Xmansmommy]

Colossians, is the answer to prayer always a yes in the Calvinist paradigm?

[themuzicman]

Colossians, is the answer to prayer always a yes in the Calvinist paradigm?
X - We need to begin treating Colossians like Zipperhead. Both are impervious to proper scriptural exegesis. They beilieve they are inerrant. There is a time to leave the reprobate to wallow in their sin.

Michael

[Colossians]

Xans,

The teaching of 1 John 5:14,15 is that God does not even hear us if we do not ask according to His will. Such 'prayer' then is not even rightly called "prayer". Rather, it is the flesh babbling to God.
This is the Calvinist, and biblical, position.

[themuzicman]

Xans,

The teaching of 1 John 5:14,15 is that God does not even hear us if we do not ask according to His will. Such 'prayer' then is not even rightly called "prayer". Rather, it is the flesh babbling to God.
This is the Calvinist, and biblical, position.
14. This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

Are you really that dense? You're arguing from silence, and ignoring the context of the verse.

The implication of what you just said is that God isn't omniscient, because He doesn't understand us when we pray something that is not his will...

How does it feel to deny omniscience?

Michael

[Colossians]

Music man,

You need to spend a little more time thinking through things.
What you have said has nothing to do with what I have said.
Suggestion: read very carefully what is written.

[themuzicman]

Music man,

You need to spend a little more time thinking through things.
What you have said has nothing to do with what I have said.
Suggestion: read very carefully what is written.
Gee, I only cited the verse you quoted, since you failed to do so, and then pointed out your errors.

Apparantly you think you're inerrant.... Are you?

[Colossians]

Gee, I only cited the verse you quoted, since you failed to do so, and then pointed out your errors.

Apparantly you think you're inerrant.... Are you?
As I said, what you said had nothing to do with what I said.
This doesn't particularly bother me. What does bother me, is that it doesn't bother you.
You need to read what is actually written rather than inserting words in other people's mouths. At present you would not make a good lawyer.

[themuzicman]

As I said, what you said had nothing to do with what I said.
This doesn't particularly bother me. What does bother me, is that it doesn't bother you.
You need to read what is actually written rather than inserting words in other people's mouths. At present you would not make a good lawyer.
Please, then, cite and exegete this verse, to show us where God hears fleshly babble when we pray outside His will. Do so from this passage, since you cited it.

I showed you clearly where you were wrong, so let's have your exegetical work for this passage.

Michael

[Colossians]

Rather, you tell us the answer to the question instead of blocking your thoughts from arriving at the inevitable conclusion.

Tell us why that even though God has said that if we ask ANYTHING IN ACCORD WITH HIS WILL we WILL RECEIVE what we ask for, you don't believe you He will grant you your request if you ask for the salvation of all men, WHICH YOU SAY IS HIS WILL.

Could it possibly be that it is not His will?

[seer]

You don't understand the subjunctive do you.

There is a world of difference between "my prayer is that they will be saved" (indicative) and "my prayer is that they might be saved" (subjunctive).

So take some grammar lessons first, and then come back to me with a proper example.

Even more importantly, explain why God would give us 1 John, knowing one of the greatest possible fulfillments of it was denied us, without telling us.

Of course he said might/may. He is STILL praying for their salvation Colossians! Now, agian - was Paul praying in the will of God.

Do you pray for your loved ones Colossians?

[Colossians]

Of course he said might/may. He is STILL praying for their salvation Colossians! Now, agian - was Paul praying in the will of God.

Do you pray for your loved ones Colossians?
I anticipated you'd say this, thus sweeping aside any desire to know why he didn't pray that "they will be saved".
Again, go and learn about the subjunctive, and therefore learn what Paul was actually saying.


And then tell us why the "anything" which we receive if in accord with God's will, somehow excludes the salvation of souls without saying so.
Then go off and deduce the obvious: it is not God's will that all be saved, thus preserving the integrity of 1 Jo 5:14-15.


You see, we accept 1 John 5:14,15 as it says. We don't infuse our own ideas into it, and produce exceptions to the rule like you do while maintaining you are submitted to scripture.

[seer]

I anticipated you'd say this, thus sweeping aside any desire to know why he didn't pray that "they will be saved".

He didn't pray that they WILL be saved because Paul was NOT a Calvinist.

Again, go and learn about the subjunctive, and therefore learn what Paul was actually saying.

Now, I'am starting to question your honesty. Was Paul praying for the salvation of these Christ rejecting Jews or not. If not what exactly was he praying for.

And again Colossians, do you pray for the salvation of your loved ones - yes or no...

[Colossians]

Seer,

Rather than question my honesty, I would question yours, specifically, why you chose to all of a sudden type copy individual items of mine rather than your usual quote method.

Glaringly obivious was your editing out of the followiing:
And then tell us why the "anything" which we receive if in accord with God's will, somehow excludes the salvation of souls without saying so.
Then go off and deduce the obvious: it is not God's will that all be saved, thus preserving the integrity of 1 Jo 5:14-15.
You see, we accept 1 John 5:14,15 as it says. We don't infuse our own ideas into it, and produce exceptions to the rule like you do while maintaining you are submitted to scripture.


Until you address both the above issue, and the fact of Paul's use of the subjunctive rather than the indicative mood, I will not be wasting anymore time responding to you on this thread.
It is glaringly obvious you have no answer to the specific contradiction the thread proposes in your thinking, other than to circumvent it by an exception clause, which anyone can do. Thus you are not honest with yourself with regard to your assertion that you follow scripture to a 'T'.

[seer]

Until you address both the above issue, and the fact of Paul's use of the subjunctive rather than the indicative mood, I will not be wasting anymore time responding to you on this thread.
It is glaringly obvious you have no answer to the specific contradiction the thread proposes in your thinking, other than to circumvent it by an exception clause, which anyone can do. Thus you are not honest with yourself with regard to your assertion that you follow scripture to a 'T'.

Subjunctive mood

n : a mood that represent an act or state as contingent or possible.

Paul clearly believes that it is possible for these Christ rejecting Jews to be saved. And he is praying for just that. And I did answer the contradiction that only exists in the Calvinist mind. As I have proved from scripture men can and do resist the love of God.

So Colossians - do you pray for your loved ones? Why won't you answer?