Another Question For Calvinists

[seer]

Did God create Adam to be obedient or to sin? What was God's intention?

[Ormly]

Did God create Adam to be obedient or to sin? What was God's intention?

God's intention for Adam was the same as Jesus successfully accomplished, i.e., to be the father of many son's.

[seer]

God's intention for Adam was the same as Jesus successfully accomplished, i.e., to be the father of many son's.

That wasn't the question Orm... Did God create Adam to sin or to be obedient.

[jason]

Did God create Adam to be obedient or to sin?
Yes.

To deny this answer is to be an open view heretic.

Are you a heretic seer ?

Jason

[seer]

Yes.

To deny this answer is to be an open view heretic.

Are you a heretic seer ?

Jason

Who defines heretic? I'am sure my theology violates someone's council. As does your Jason (like show me any creed or council that taught justification by faith alone before about 1500). But you did not answer the question - I can. God intended Adam to be obedient. But gave him the freedom to do otherwise.

[jason]

But you did not answer the question
Yes I did.

I said the answer to your question was yes.

Your answer is one of an OVT heretic.

Jason

[seer]

Yes I did.

I said the answer to your question was yes.

Your answer is one of an OVT heretic.

Jason

Yes God created Adam to sin and not to sin? Was God confused? And I do not hold to OVT...

[Assistant Junior Deputy Janitor Analogman]

More anathamas. Yay.

[jason]

Yes God created Adam to sin and not to sin?
That was not your question. Your question was ...

Did God create Adam to be obedient or to sin?

... don't move the goal posts around.

Adam was created to obedient, but he was not, which was part of God's soverign plan.

Unless you are an OVT heretic you cannot deny this. To deny that this is the case is to deny that God is sovereign.

Jason

[seer]

More anathamas. Yay.

The way I see it, if your around long enough one group or another is going to label you a heretic... BTW A, thanks....

[studyhound]

Yes I did.

I said the answer to your question was yes.

Your answer is one of an OVT heretic.

Jason

Just wondering:

One of the owners here is OVT (IIRC) would you call him a heretic?

:sh:

[seer]

That was not your question. Your question was ...

Did God create Adam to be obedient or to sin?

... don't move the goal posts around.

Adam was created to obedient, but he was not, which was part of God's soverign plan.

Unless you are an OVT heretic you cannot deny this. To deny that this is the case is to deny that God is sovereign.

Jason

So Adam subverted God's will when he disobeyed? I mean God is not doubleminded. Either He created Adam for one end or the other.

[jason]

Just wondering:

One of the owners here is OVT (IIRC) would you call him a heretic?

:sh:
:yes:

[jason]

So Adam subverted God's will when he disobeyed?
Yes and No.

I mean God is not doubleminded. Either He created Adam for one end or the other.
Not so. God is not double minded but your conclusion does not follow.

Jason

[john-philip]

Yes.

To deny this answer is to be an open view heretic.

What does God's intention in creating Adam have to do with EDF?

[jason]

What does God's intention in creating Adam have to do with EDF?
To answer that God created Adam not to sin would be to imply that God's intentions where frustrated, which would imply that God is not omniscient.

Jason

[john-philip]

To answer that God created Adam not to sin would be to imply that God's intentions where frustrated, which would imply that God is not omniscient.

Jason
Jason, while I'm not necessarily advocating such a view, the former certainly does not imply the latter, AFAICS. I see no reason why it would be logically impossible for God to create a world where He knew Adam would not choose how God desired Him to choose.

[jason]

Jason, while I'm not necessarily advocating such a view, the former certainly does not imply the latter, AFAICS. I see no reason why it would be logically impossible for God to create a world where He knew Adam would not choose how God desired Him to choose.
The problem is the implication of God not knowing that was what Adam would choose.

Which is why I said the answer to the question Seer posed was yes.

Jason

[john-philip]

The problem is the implication of God not knowing that was what Adam would choose.

Which is why I said the answer to the question Seer posed was yes.

Jason
Okay, well, my point was that it would be a bit over the top to say that one must be answer the question 'yes' or else be an OVT.

[Ormly]

Jason, while I'm not necessarily advocating such a view, the former certainly does not imply the latter, AFAICS. I see no reason why it would be logically impossible for God to create a world where He knew Adam would not choose how God desired Him to choose.

Absolutely! What we see in Adam is the "elect" of God choosing and having only one shot at getting it right. How many of us [elect] have done the same thing and but for redemption are suffering the same consequences?

Orm

[jason]

Okay, well, my point was that it would be a bit over the top to say that one must be answer the question 'yes' or else be an OVT.
True. You could just be mistaken :wink:

But I think seer knows exactly what he is talking about.

Jason

[seer]

To answer that God created Adam not to sin would be to imply that God's intentions where frustrated, which would imply that God is not omniscient.

Jason

No Jason, it would not imply that God was not all knowing. It would imply that God created Adam with free will. And that God intended that he obey.

[seer]

me: So Adam subverted God's will when he disobeyed?

Jason :Yes and No.

That's the problem - you guys are clueless. And this certainly does make God doubleminded. Part of God doesn't want Adam to sin, another part of God does.

[jason]

That's the problem - you guys are clueless.
That you don't understand the answer does not mean I am clueless. That you are stupid, and offered the same answer I did, does not mean I am clueless.

All it means is that you don't understand those you disagree with.

Even when you agree with them apparently.

Jason

[Xmansmommy]

:yes:

Why would you want to mod on a message board where one of the owners is a heretic? Just curious.

[jason]

Why would you want to mod on a message board where one of the owners is a heretic? Just curious.
Why not ?

Perhaps heretic has the wrong emphasis. PErhaps gravely mistaken is a better term.

Jason

[Xmansmommy]

Why not ?

Perhaps heretic has the wrong emphasis. PErhaps gravely mistaken is a better term.

Jason

Perhaps. Heresy is a serious charge Jason. I think it's a term that is thrown around so loosely that it really has lost it's meaning. I would imagine if you truly thought OVT was heresy you wouldn't want to help spread that message in any capacity. Especially by helping one run a site where it's espoused. However, I could be wrong. :shrug:

[Colossians]

Did God create Adam to be obedient or to sin? What was God's intention?
Adam was a sinner from the start. That is why he sinned.

[Kevin Wayne]

Adam was a sinner from the start. That is why he sinned.



??? :ahem:


Adam was a sinner before the fall.... oookaaayyyy...

[john-philip]

Adam was a sinner from the start. That is why he sinned.

You mean God created Adam as a sinner? So I guess being a sinner is good, at least, according to God in Genesis 1?

[jason]

Perhaps. Heresy is a serious charge Jason. I think it's a term that is thrown around so loosely that it really has lost it's meaning. I would imagine if you truly thought OVT was heresy you wouldn't want to help spread that message in any capacity. Especially by helping one run a site where it's espoused. However, I could be wrong. :shrug:
Well OVT seems to be at least as problematic as Arianism. IMO.

And what should I do, simply walk away and ignore the problem ?

Jason

[Xmansmommy]

Well OVT seems to be at least as problematic as Arianism. IMO.

And what should I do, simply walk away and ignore the problem ?

Jason

I dunno Jason. That's not my judgement to make. I imagine there must be a more productive way of addressing the problem than simply charging heresy though. Have you read any OVT authors? Have you discussed the topic here much on TWeb with OVTs? What do you believe the solution is Jason?

[jason]

I imagine there must be a more productive way of addressing the problem than simply charging heresy though.
Suggestions ? I've talked to OVT they deny God's omniscience and ability to know the future. This is most surely an unorthodox position, and worse yet it has some serious future ramifications.

Have you read any OVT authors? Have you discussed the topic here much on TWeb with OVTs? What do you believe the solution is Jason?
I've discussed the topic and read about the issue.

The solution ? There is not a problem. The OVT position is simply wrong and entirely unnecessary.

Jason

[Xmansmommy]

Suggestions ? I've talked to OVT they deny God's omniscience and ability to know the future. This is most surely an unorthodox position, and worse yet it has some serious future ramifications.


I've discussed the topic and read about the issue.

The solution ? There is not a problem. The OVT position is simply wrong and entirely unnecessary.

Jason

I would suggest that they deny your definition of omniscience, sure. Glad to know you have read about the OVT position. I assumed you thought there was a problem when you posted, "And what should I do, simply walk away and ignore the problem ?" I'll leave it at that though as I don't wish to further interrupt the OP. Sorry seer. :blush:

[jason]

I would suggest that they deny your definition of omniscience, sure.
That is what they say. But like Arianism, it is the fruit of this sort of thinking that will be the problem.

As with all heresy, the idea itself may not actually be something that will damn you, but the fruit of the poisoned tree will be bad.

Jason

[Spokoina]

....
Did God create Adam to be obedient or to sin?

... don't move the goal posts around.

Adam was created to obedient, but he was not, which was part of God's soverign plan.
...
Jason


Jason, in all due respect, you are moving the goal posts. "Adam was created to be obedient, but he was not, which was part of God's sovereign plan"??????


Um... Did Adam then, thwart what God had created him to be? Yes? No?

Um, did God create Adam to be obedient and then sovereignly plan for him not to be? Kinda like contradicting what he created Adam for?

Moving goalposts?

:O

[Spokoina]

No Jason, it would not imply that God was not all knowing. It would imply that God created Adam with free will. And that God intended that he obey.


Bullseye.

[Spokoina]

Adam was a sinner from the start. That is why he sinned.


Not according to Genesis, unless you have God calling sin and evil "good". And the bible is clear about that: Woe to them who call evil good, and good evil!


Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.