Jesus did NOT die for ALL!

[IncRus]

Most people, especially "universalists" believe that Jesus DIED for ALL.

This belief stems from their mistaken INTERPRETATION of John 3:17 where Jesus says, "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved" and 1 John 2:2 where apostle John says, "And he himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

If one looks closely at these verses, one will notice that these verses do NOT say that "Jesus DIED for the whole world." The truth is, Jesus CANNOT die FOR the whole world because the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God DEMANDS that "each man shall die for his OWN sin" (Deut. 24:16; Ezek. 18:20).

To accomlish his mission to REDEEM sinners (Gal. 4:4) in accordance with God's RIGHTEOUSNESS (Rom. 10:1-3), Jesus BUILT his Church (Matt. 16:18) and "CREATED in himself ONE new man" (Eph. 2:15) composed of the Church which is his BODY (Eph. 1:22-23) and him as the HEAD (Col. 1:18).

Thus, Jesus who knew no sin was made sin for the Church that the Church might become God's RIGHTEOUSNESS in Christ(2 Cor. 5:21). This is the ONLY way that Christ could DIE for sinners WITHOUT violating the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God.

Everyone who is "CALLED by God into the fellowship of Christ" (1 Cor. 1:9) is "delivered by God from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the Son of His love, IN WHOM there is REDEMPTION through his blood, the FORGIVENES of sin" (Col. 1:13-14). These are the people who have been "QUALIFIED to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints" (Col. 1:12).

This "kingdom of the Son of His love" to which God translates those whom He CALLED is the ONE body or Church (Col. 3:15).

The RIGHTEOUS requirements of the law is thereby FULFILLED in the Church (Rom. 8:4) which "Christ loved so much that he GAVE his life for it" (Eph. 5:25), the "Church of Christ which Christ PURCHASED with his own blood" (Acts 20:28 Lamsa), the Church that Christ will SAVE on judgment day (Eph. 5:23).

For this reason, Jesus SAID: "I am the door of the sheep. I am the door. If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved" (John 10:7,9). Jesus was referring to the CHURCH that he GAVE his life for, the Church that he PURCHASED with his blood, the Church of which he is the Savior.

Forget about Calvinism and Arminianism! The MORE important thing is: Is the church you belong to, the SAME church that Christ GAVE his life for?

[FlimFlamboyant]

Most people, especially "universalists" believe that Jesus DIED for ALL.

This belief stems from their mistaken INTERPRETATION of John 3:17
Actually my belief (not being a universalist, mind you) stems more from passages like this:

(2Co 5:14,15) For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Despite the fact that Christ did in fact "die for all", "those who live" is a subset of the "all" that Christ died for. They are those who have been saved by grace through faith in the shed blood of Christ.

The RIGHTEOUS requirements of the law is thereby FULFILLED in the Church (Rom. 8:4) which "Christ loved so much that he GAVE his life for it" (Eph. 5:25), the "Church of Christ which Christ PURCHASED with his own blood" (Acts 20:28 Lamsa), the Church that Christ will SAVE on judgment day (Eph. 5:23).

For this reason, Jesus SAID: "I am the door of the sheep. I am the door. If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved" (John 10:7,9). Jesus was referring to the CHURCH that he GAVE his life for, the Church that he PURCHASED with his blood, the Church of which he is the Savior.
Certainly it was the church that Christ purchased, but as a whole. The individuals who make up this church are those who have believed on the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[smaller]

Most people, especially "universalists" believe that Jesus DIED for ALL.

This belief stems from their mistaken INTERPRETATION of John 3:17 where Jesus says, "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved" and 1 John 2:2 where apostle John says, "And he himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

Amongst hundreds of other similar secure scriptures.


If one looks closely at these verses, one will notice that these verses do NOT say that "Jesus DIED for the whole world." The truth is, Jesus CANNOT die FOR the whole world because the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God DEMANDS that "each man shall die for his OWN sin" (Deut. 24:16; Ezek. 18:20).

Each man does die. What's your beef? You resort to The Law to justify your limited atonement position and then promptly toss out The Law when it contradicts your positions?


To accomlish his mission to REDEEM sinners (Gal. 4:4) in accordance with God's RIGHTEOUSNESS (Rom. 10:1-3), Jesus BUILT his Church (Matt. 16:18) and "CREATED in himself ONE new man" (Eph. 2:15) composed of the Church which is his BODY (Eph. 1:22-23) and him as the HEAD (Col. 1:18).

Christian Universalism does not deny that only a remnant are here on earth to share the Good News of God's Gift to all men nor does Christian Universalism deny that some can fall away from His Truth in this life. For this latter position Christian Universalism would point directly to people who promote eternal human torture as an example of this falling away.


Thus, Jesus who knew no sin was made sin for the Church that the Church might become God's RIGHTEOUSNESS in Christ(2 Cor. 5:21). This is the ONLY way that Christ could DIE for sinners WITHOUT violating the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God.

That is a severely twisted jump in logic amounting to nothing more than eradication of the term "world" at the whim of your imaginations. You have not proven that "the world" does not consist of "the world" using this exercise.


Everyone who is "CALLED by God into the fellowship of Christ" (1 Cor. 1:9) is "delivered by God from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the Son of His love, IN WHOM there is REDEMPTION through his blood, the FORGIVENES of sin" (Col. 1:13-14). These are the people who have been "QUALIFIED to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints" (Col. 1:12).

This statement does not eradicate the term "world" either.


This "kingdom of the Son of His love" to which God translates those whom He CALLED is the ONE body or Church (Col. 3:15).

The RIGHTEOUS requirements of the law is thereby FULFILLED in the Church (Rom. 8:4) which "Christ loved so much that he GAVE his life for it" (Eph. 5:25), the "Church of Christ which Christ PURCHASED with his own blood" (Acts 20:28 Lamsa), the Church that Christ will SAVE on judgment day (Eph. 5:23).

And those righteous requirements of The Law remain to be fulfilled in every believer as well and that fulfillment is by loving ones neighbors as themselves.

Your position utterly FAILS to fulfill what you are claiming fulfillment by Jesus because it LACKS THE REQUIRED EVIDENCE of YOU loving your unsaved neighbors and enemies.

Your doctrines are nothing more than open promotion of eternal human torture. Can you get any further away FROM LOVE??? hello.


For this reason, Jesus SAID: "I am the door of the sheep. I am the door. If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved" (John 10:7,9). Jesus was referring to the CHURCH that he GAVE his life for, the Church that he PURCHASED with his blood, the Church of which he is the Savior.

Jesus also said He would draw ALL MEN unto Himself and that of those who would come to Him NONE would be cast out. Where does that take you?

He also said He judges no man, NOR does The Father judge any man.


Forget about Calvinism and Arminianism! The MORE important thing is: Is the church you belong to, the SAME church that Christ GAVE his life for?

Your purported "church" and that of the other purported "christian churches" who promote eternal human torture ARE NOT THE CHURCH.

You have utterly failed the test of loving both your neighbors and enemies when you promote their eternal torture.

Surprise!

I don't really expect any of you eternal human torturists promoters to respond to Love, but I also understand that there is a captive fallen member of The Church in your body who is dying to get out.

enjoy!

smaller

[themuzicman]

Most people, especially "universalists" believe that Jesus DIED for ALL.

This belief stems from their mistaken INTERPRETATION of John 3:17 where Jesus says, "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved" and 1 John 2:2 where apostle John says, "And he himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

SO, we throw these verses out? You make no attempt to present context or exegesis as to why "world" wouldn't mean "world."

If one looks closely at these verses, one will notice that these verses do NOT say that "Jesus DIED for the whole world." The truth is, Jesus CANNOT die FOR the whole world because the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God DEMANDS that "each man shall die for his OWN sin" (Deut. 24:16; Ezek. 18:20).

Which is the purpose of Christ's coming: to bring justification to all men, so that some might receive justification by faith, and receive eternal life.

To accomlish his mission to REDEEM sinners (Gal. 4:4) in accordance with God's RIGHTEOUSNESS (Rom. 10:1-3), Jesus BUILT his Church (Matt. 16:18) and "CREATED in himself ONE new man" (Eph. 2:15) composed of the Church which is his BODY (Eph. 1:22-23) and him as the HEAD (Col. 1:18).


Wow.. prooftexts abound. Yet, you are unable to explain the ones you started with. Yes, Christ came to redeem sinners. His deeath was a propitiation that brought justification to all. (ROm 5:18)

Yes, the church is the body of CHrist, when properly understood in the analogy as Paul presents it in his writings. Paul's point isn't that there is an authoritative structure that one must exist under in order to be a part of the body, but that we are all participants in the body, each having our own function. All those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit are a part of it!

Certainly no partial church organization can claim to be THE Church, if those outside that Church have the Holy Spirit.

Thus, Jesus who knew no sin was made sin for the Church that the Church might become God's RIGHTEOUSNESS in Christ(2 Cor. 5:21). This is the ONLY way that Christ could DIE for sinners WITHOUT violating the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God.

Oh? THat's an odd way to put it, especially in light of Paul's statements that we are justified by faith, and righteousness is a gift of God to those who believe.

Christ's propitiation on the cross was sufficient to appease God's wrath against us, and His resurrection brings to us eternal life and righteousness.

Everyone who is "CALLED by God into the fellowship of Christ" (1 Cor. 1:9) is "delivered by God from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the Son of His love, IN WHOM there is REDEMPTION through his blood, the FORGIVENES of sin" (Col. 1:13-14). These are the people who have been "QUALIFIED to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints" (Col. 1:12).


That's in Christ, not in the Church.

This "kingdom of the Son of His love" to which God translates those whom He CALLED is the ONE body or Church (Col. 3:15).

Sorry, but the bible doesn't equate body and church in this way. You're trying to mix a metaphor and reality.

The RIGHTEOUS requirements of the law is thereby FULFILLED in the Church (Rom. 8:4) which "Christ loved so much that he GAVE his life for it" (Eph. 5:25), the "Church of Christ which Christ PURCHASED with his own blood" (Acts 20:28 Lamsa), the Church that Christ will SAVE on judgment day (Eph. 5:23).

Um... Roman 8:2-4 says that CHRIST fulfilled the requirements of the law in us. The Church had no role in that.

For this reason, Jesus SAID: "I am the door of the sheep. I am the door. If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved" (John 10:7,9). Jesus was referring to the CHURCH that he GAVE his life for, the Church that he PURCHASED with his blood, the Church of which he is the Savior.


Um... Jesus says that HE is the door, not the Church. You're now just inserting Church where none is part of the text.

Forget about Calvinism and Arminianism! The MORE important thing is: Is the church you belong to, the SAME church that Christ GAVE his life for?

The one that consists of all who are sealed by the Holy Spirit? Yes. That church has no denomination, no name on the door, for it consists of all who place their faith in Him.

Michael

[IncRus]

Most people, especially "universalists" believe that Jesus DIED for ALL.

This belief stems from their mistaken INTERPRETATION of John 3:17

Actually my belief (not being a universalist, mind you) stems more from passages like this:

(2Co 5:14,15) For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Despite the fact that Christ did in fact "die for all", "those who live" is a subset of the "all" that Christ died for. They are those who have been saved by grace through faith in the shed blood of Christ.

You are correct in your first point that "those who live" is a subset of the "all" that Christ died for. But your statement that "they are those who are saved by grace through faith in the shed blood of Christ is NOT Biblical."

"Those who live" are those who have been SAVED by grace through faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-10) and have been JUSTIFIED by the blood of Christ" (Rom. 5:9). The rest of the "ALL for whom Jesus died" will NOT live because they have NOT been JUSTIFIED by the blood of Christ.

The RIGHTEOUS requirements of the law is thereby FULFILLED in the Church (Rom. 8:4) which "Christ loved so much that he GAVE his life for it" (Eph. 5:25), the "Church of Christ which Christ PURCHASED with his own blood" (Acts 20:28 Lamsa), the Church that Christ will SAVE on judgment day (Eph. 5:23).

For this reason, Jesus SAID: "I am the door of the sheep. I am the door. If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved" (John 10:7,9). Jesus was referring to the CHURCH that he GAVE his life for, the Church that he PURCHASED with his blood, the Church of which he is the Savior.

Certainly it was the church that Christ purchased, but as a whole. The individuals who make up this church are those who have believed on the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The belief that the CHURCH is composed of "individuals from DIFFERENT denominations who have believed on the gospel of Jesus Christ" is NOT Biblical.

The TRUTH is, the CHURCH is composed of DISCIPLES of Christ (John 8:31) or people who BELIEVE in Jesus and ABIDE in his word. They ALL were "baptized INTO the ONE body" and have all been made to drink into ONE Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13). That BODY is the CHURCH (Eph. 1:22-23) of which Christ is the HEAD (Col. 1:18).

There is ONE body with ONE Spirit, having ONE hope of their calling, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism; ONE God and Father who is ABOVE all" (Eph. 4:4-6).

The CHURCH is ONE visible organization complete with apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, gifts of healing, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues" (1 Cor. 12:28).

[FlimFlamboyant]

"Those who live" are those who have been SAVED by grace through faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-10) and have been JUSTIFIED by the blood of Christ" (Rom. 5:9). The rest of the "ALL for whom Jesus died" will NOT live because they have NOT been JUSTIFIED by the blood of Christ.
Er, yeah... I agree. In fact, that's exactly what I thought I said. Unless there's something specific that you're trying to point out that I'm missing here.

The belief that the CHURCH is composed of "individuals from DIFFERENT denominations who have believed on the gospel of Jesus Christ" is NOT Biblical.
How's that? Are you promoting a specific denomination? The Bible doesn't even mention denominations. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation unto all who believe. Once the individual believes, he is forgiven/justified/made righteous. That's the issue; their denomination of choice is irrelevant if they have put 100% of their trust in Christ for their salvation. Of course, their denomination of choice could have a negative impact on their growth after the fact, but I digress...

There is ONE body with ONE Spirit, having ONE hope of their calling, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism; ONE God and Father who is ABOVE all" (Eph. 4:4-6).
Yes...

The CHURCH is ONE visible organization complete with apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, gifts of healing, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues" (1 Cor. 12:28).
And what do you propose this visible organization is when the church is a spiritual body?

[Sparko]

OK everyone sloooowly back away... don't disturb anything. quietly leave the thread and let Smaller and IncRus battle it out. This should keep them both busy for a while. :hehe:


:popcorn:

[IncRus]

Most people, especially "universalists" believe that Jesus DIED for ALL.

This belief stems from their mistaken INTERPRETATION of John 3:17 where Jesus says, "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him MIGHT be saved" and 1 John 2:2 where apostle John says, "And he himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

SO, we throw these verses out? You make no attempt to present context or exegesis as to why "world" wouldn't mean "world."

The WHOLE world will NOT be saved. Only those who BELIEVE Jesus shall have everlasting life (John 3:16). Jesus is the PROPITIATION (atoning sacrifice) for the sins of the WHOLE world, but ONLY those who HEAR the TRUE gospel, BELIEVE the TRUE gospel and BAPTIZED (Mark 16:15-16) "into the ONE body" (1 Cor. 12:13) will be SAVED.

If one looks closely at these verses, one will notice that these verses do NOT say that "Jesus DIED for the whole world." The truth is, Jesus CANNOT die FOR the whole world because the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God DEMANDS that "each man shall die for his OWN sin" (Deut. 24:16; Ezek. 18:20).

Which is the purpose of Christ's coming: to bring justification to all men, so that some might receive justification by faith, and receive eternal life.

As I said, Jesus is the "atoning sacrifice" for the sins of the WHOLE world, BUT only those who have "faith in Christ" and BELIEVE in him shall be JUSTIFIED by his blood and SAVED from wrath through him (Rom. 5:9).

To accomplish his mission to REDEEM sinners (Gal. 4:4) in accordance with God's RIGHTEOUSNESS (Rom. 10:1-3), Jesus BUILT his Church (Matt. 16:18) and "CREATED in himself ONE new man" (Eph. 2:15) composed of the Church which is his BODY (Eph. 1:22-23) and him as the HEAD (Col. 1:18).

Wow.. prooftexts abound. Yet, you are unable to explain the ones you started with. Yes, Christ came to redeem sinners. His deeath was a propitiation that brought justification to all. (ROm 5:18)

Rom. 5:18 does NOT say "justification to all." Here's what Rom. 5:18 TRULY says: "Therefore, as through one man's offense JUDGMENT came to ALL men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one MAN's righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in JUSTIFICATION to life."

SALVATION is the free gift that CAME to all men but only those who are REDEEMED by Christ's blood and receive FORGIVENESS of sins are JUSTIFIED by his blood (Rom. 5:9) or "qualified as partakers of the inheritance of the saints" (Col. 1:12).

Yes, the church is the body of CHrist, when properly understood in the analogy as Paul presents it in his writings. Paul's point isn't that there is an authoritative structure that one must exist under in order to be a part of the body, but that we are all participants in the body, each having our own function. All those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit are a part of it!

Certainly no partial church organization can claim to be THE Church, if those outside that Church have the Holy Spirit.

The first-century Church of Christ was a VISIBLE organization, an authoritative structure, complete with officers appointed by God (1 Cor. 12:28). To become the "body of Christ and member individually" (1 Cor. 12:27), one was "baptized INTO the ONE body" (1 Cor. 12:13) or "baptized INTO Christ" (Gal. 3:27). Those who were "baptized into the ONE body" first HEARD the gospel FROM preachers SENT by God, then BELIEVED what they HEARD and finally got BAPTIZED into the ONE body just as Jesus said in Mark 16:15-16.

Thus, Jesus who knew no sin was made sin for the Church that the Church might become God's RIGHTEOUSNESS in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). This is the ONLY way that Christ could DIE for sinners WITHOUT violating the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God.

Oh? THat's an odd way to put it, especially in light of Paul's statements that we are justified by faith, and righteousness is a gift of God to those who believe.

Christ's propitiation on the cross was sufficient to appease God's wrath against us, and His resurrection brings to us eternal life and righteousness.

2 Cor. 5:21 was written by apostle Paul. "US" and "WE" refer to MEMBERS of the "one body of Christ" (Rom. 12:4-5) - the VISIBLE and organized Church of Christ in Rome (Rom. 1:7).

Apostle Paul did NOT write that "righteousness is the gift of God to those who believe." And Christ's "atoning sacrifice" at the cross BENEFITS only those who are "INSIDE the ONE body who are RECONCILED to God through the cross" (Eph. 2:16).

Everyone who is "CALLED by God into the fellowship of Christ" (1 Cor. 1:9) is "delivered by God from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the Son of His love, IN WHOM there is REDEMPTION through his blood, the FORGIVENES of sin" (Col. 1:13-14). These are the people who have been "QUALIFIED to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints" (Col. 1:12).

That's in Christ, not in the Church.

You mean "PHYSICALLY in Christ" muzicman? How can that be possible?

"Christ is the HEAD of the CHURCH, his BODY" (Col. 1:18). Those who are INSIDE his BODY, the CHURCH are RECONCILED to God through the cross (Eph. 2:16) because INSIDE the BODY, they RECEIVE redemption through his blood, the FORGIVENESS of sin (Col. 1:14).

This "kingdom of the Son of His love" to which God translates those whom He CALLED is the ONE body or Church (Col. 3:15).

Sorry, but the bible doesn't equate body and church in this way. You're trying to mix a metaphor and reality.

Of course, that's how the Holy Spirit teaches muzicman - "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor. 2:13).

The RIGHTEOUS requirements of the law is thereby FULFILLED in the Church (Rom. 8:4) which "Christ loved so much that he GAVE his life for it" (Eph. 5:25), the "Church of Christ which Christ PURCHASED with his own blood" (Acts 20:28 Lamsa), the Church that Christ will SAVE on judgment day (Eph. 5:23).

Um... Roman 8:2-4 says that CHRIST fulfilled the requirements of the law in us. The Church had no role in that.

Again, when apostle Paul said "US" he was referring to the MEMBERS of the Church of Christ in Rome (Rom. 1:7). In other words, he was addressing the CHURCH in Rome.

For this reason, Jesus SAID: "I am the door of the sheep. I am the door. If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved" (John 10:7,9). Jesus was referring to the CHURCH that he GAVE his life for, the Church that he PURCHASED with his blood, the Church of which he is the Savior.

Um... Jesus says that HE is the door, not the Church. You're now just inserting Church where none is part of the text.

In Luke 12:32, Jesus called his apostles "little flock." In Acts 20:28 (Lamsa), apostle Paul called the flock "Church of Christ."

Forget about Calvinism and Arminianism! The MORE important thing is: Is the church you belong to, the SAME church that Christ GAVE his life for?

The one that consists of all who are sealed by the Holy Spirit? Yes. That church has no denomination, no name on the door, for it consists of all who place their faith in Him.

This is a FALSE doctrine. that did NOT come from one who has the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:12).

The CHURCH that Christ GAVE his life for (Eph. 5:25) was called, in the English language, the Church of Christ (Acts 20:28 Lamsa) and MEMBERS were called "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16). They were VISIBLE and easily RECOGNIZABLE. The CHURCH had a central administration composed of elders and apostles with headquarters in Jerusalem (Acts 15:2).

The CHURCH that Christ GAVE his life for and WILL save (Eph. 5:23) is STILL called, in the English language, Church of Christ and members are still called "churches of Christ." They are still VISIBLE and easily RECOGNIZABLE. The CHURCH has a central administration composed of ministers with headquarters in the "far country in the east" where the "ravenous bird, the man who executes God's counsel," in FULFILLMENT of PROPHECY recorded in Isaiah 46:11, comes from.

[IncRus]

"Those who live" are those who have been SAVED by grace through faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-10) and have been JUSTIFIED by the blood of Christ" (Rom. 5:9). The rest of the "ALL for whom Jesus died" will NOT live because they have NOT been JUSTIFIED by the blood of Christ.

Er, yeah... I agree. In fact, that's exactly what I thought I said. Unless there's something specific that you're trying to point out that I'm missing here.

I was merely re-stating your position so that we can be clear about this.

The belief that the CHURCH is composed of "individuals from DIFFERENT denominations who have believed on the gospel of Jesus Christ" is NOT Biblical.

How's that? Are you promoting a specific denomination? The Bible doesn't even mention denominations. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation unto all who believe. Once the individual believes, he is forgiven/justified/made righteous. That's the issue; their denomination of choice is irrelevant if they have put 100% of their trust in Christ for their salvation. Of course, their denomination of choice could have a negative impact on their growth after the fact, but I digress...

No, I'm NOT promoting a specific denomination. I'm promoting the first-century Church of Christ (in the English language) which is the SAME Church of Christ (in the English language) in these last days.

There was ONLY ONE Christian CHURCH during the time of Jesus and his apostles. Only the DISCIPLES of Christ were called Christians. On the other hand, the TRUE Church of Christ in these last days is "buried" among 30,000 professing Christian denominations.

While it is true that the gospel of Christ is God's power unto salvation for everyone who believes, which of these 30,000 denominations preach the TRUE gospel? "And how can they preach the TRUE gospel of Christ UNLESS they are SENT" (Rom. 10:15)?

The CHURCH is ONE visible organization complete with apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, gifts of healing, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues" (1 Cor. 12:28).

And what do you propose this visible organization is when the church is a spiritual body?

The CHURCH is NOT "a spiritual body." It is the "spiritual body OF Christ" of which Christ is the HEAD (Col. 1:18). But the CHURCH itself is a VISIBLE organization composed of individual MEMBERS.

[smaller]

OK everyone sloooowly back away... don't disturb anything. quietly leave the thread and let Smaller and IncRus battle it out. This should keep them both busy for a while. :hehe:
:popcorn:

No one has to convince me that God loves mankind and it is quite absurd to debate with supposed "christ" believers that God does love mankind, but of course that's not always what slavery to eternal human torture is about is it Sparko?

[The Plain Jane]

OK everyone sloooowly back away... don't disturb anything. quietly leave the thread and let Smaller and IncRus battle it out. This should keep them both busy for a while. :hehe:


:popcorn:


:lol: :rofl:
:rofl: :lmbo:
:lol: :rofl:
:rofl: :lmbo:

[mickiel]

:lol: :rofl:
:rofl: :lmbo:
:lol: :rofl:
:rofl: :lmbo:



I would like to be added to this list of sarcaism, because I am one also who does not accept traditional interpitation, and I am neither universalist or christian, I am just confused, and don't know what to think about religon or God. The bible doesn't help because scripture without understanding given from God, is just understanding given by other men who have no understanding from God. All of which think and claim they do. Thats why I choose the road of self, leaving everyone alone with their views. If that condemns me then I accept my fate from the God who would do as such with me.

I have considered many things about Jesus saving all. I conclude that there is ample evidence in either stance one takes. And that is confusing to me. The bible seems to say not all will make it, it then also seems to say all will. Whatever kind of person you are can feed on either, I am confused by both.

For example Romans 5;.verse 6 is simple to me. It very plainly, simply, and without confusion states "While we were helpless, at the right time Christ died for the unGodly". Then verse 8 says while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. You know, this is just simple, yet some want to believe Jesus didnot die for sinners. The verse does not say Jesus died for the righteous, BUT-- he did, because Christ died for everyone--- WHY, because all have sinned and he died for their sins. But then when people BECOME righteous, something happens to them. They want to exclude sinners from salvation. They become so righteous, that the more righteous they become, it seems the more sinful sinners become also. Now if God is like this, then sinners are doomed, no question. If God is so righteous that sinners are pushed away from him the more they sin, then sinners just have no chance, UNLESS something happens to them and they catch this righteous thing. But thats another story that confuses me, how much of Gods righteousness can cancel out sin and change the sinner and what sinner can be so lucky to receive that.

Verse 18 of Rom. 5 is of intrest also. Because of ONE sin ALL men are condemned, no righteous christian seems to doubt the use of the word all here, probally because it condemns everyone, a common theme in righteous people, something I seriously dislike, so I quess that means I dislike righteousness. I don't think thats fair of God to condemn everyone because of the sin of one. The gall of God. But heres the thing people on earth seem to miss, the second part of the verse, even though, through one act of righteousness all men are justified. Verse 17, 16, 19 and 20 all say the same thing. The same gall God had to condemn everyone, he turns around and forgives everyone and justifys them all.

Now hey! No argument, but it sure looks that way to me, so I understand the universalist seeing it, I see it also. But I see the christian point of view, if God did that, its just crazy man, far too much grace. I mean, why the world can go scott crazy and sin until the uttermost, and still get away with it. Well the world has been gone crazy before any of us were born, and if righteousness is based on what christians teach, hey, most of us are doomed anyway. I quess christians have to be born christians. I've tried not sinning, being good, being holy, I just can't do it, its not in me. Sin is in me. Oh I get better as I grow older, but I am just not a righteous person, just as I see probally 99% of humanity has not been. So why would God create a bunch of sinful people, and leave it to whatever it is that overcomes sin, and then righteously doom the vast majority of us for just not having this righteous thing christians have ( and believe me, MOST of them don't really have it either, they just profess to).

Its back to the scripture then. In my heart I hope none of us are doomed, but God has not given my heart enough strength to be totally convinced of universal salvation, but neither has he given me the strength to believe that most humans are doomed. So when he returns, I'll be in the confused line awaiting my judgement.

Peace, Mickiel.

[GoBahnsen]

The truth is, Jesus CANNOT die FOR the whole world because the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God DEMANDS that "each man shall die for his OWN sin" (Deut. 24:16; Ezek. 18:20). While I'm a limited atonement guy myself (L in TULIP), your statement here sorta shows that you are weird.


Forget about Calvinism and Arminianism! The MORE important thing is: Is the church you belong to, the SAME church that Christ GAVE his life for?
And what would that be? One that does enough good works?

[themuzicman]

The WHOLE world will NOT be saved. Only those who BELIEVE Jesus shall have everlasting life (John 3:16). Jesus is the PROPITIATION (atoning sacrifice) for the sins of the WHOLE world, but ONLY those who HEAR the TRUE gospel, BELIEVE the TRUE gospel and BAPTIZED (Mark 16:15-16) "into the ONE body" (1 Cor. 12:13) will be SAVED.

Thus, Christ's death is sufficient for the whole world, and salvation is then dependent on those who choose to believe. It's the only way scripture makes sense.

As I said, Jesus is the "atoning sacrifice" for the sins of the WHOLE world, BUT only those who have "faith in Christ" and BELIEVE in him shall be JUSTIFIED by his blood and SAVED from wrath through him (Rom. 5:9).

I can go along with that. However, that's what what the title of your thread says.

Rom. 5:18 does NOT say "justification to all." Here's what Rom. 5:18 TRULY says: "Therefore, as through one man's offense JUDGMENT came to ALL men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one MAN's righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in JUSTIFICATION to life."

Key being "to all men".

SALVATION is the free gift that CAME to all men but only those who are REDEEMED by Christ's blood and receive FORGIVENESS of sins are JUSTIFIED by his blood (Rom. 5:9) or "qualified as partakers of the inheritance of the saints" (Col. 1:12).

And faith is the condition.

The first-century Church of Christ was a VISIBLE organization, an authoritative structure, complete with officers appointed by God (1 Cor. 12:28). To become the "body of Christ and member individually" (1 Cor. 12:27), one was "baptized INTO the ONE body" (1 Cor. 12:13) or "baptized INTO Christ" (Gal. 3:27). Those who were "baptized into the ONE body" first HEARD the gospel FROM preachers SENT by God, then BELIEVED what they HEARD and finally got BAPTIZED into the ONE body just as Jesus said in Mark 16:15-16.

Except that the first church didn't have an authortative structure beyond the local church. The body isn't an organization or an authority structure. The body is all those who have believed in Christ for salvation.

2 Cor. 5:21 was written by apostle Paul. "US" and "WE" refer to MEMBERS of the "one body of Christ" (Rom. 12:4-5) - the VISIBLE and organized Church of Christ in Rome (Rom. 1:7).

You're reading that into the text. That's not Paul's intent. Paul CERTAINLY doesn't have the Roman church in mind, here.

Apostle Paul did NOT write that "righteousness is the gift of God to those who believe." And Christ's "atoning sacrifice" at the cross BENEFITS only those who are "INSIDE the ONE body who are RECONCILED to God through the cross" (Eph. 2:16).

Unfortunately, you have bad Ecclesiology.

You mean "PHYSICALLY in Christ" muzicman? How can that be possible?

No, I mean those who believe in Him.

"Christ is the HEAD of the CHURCH, his BODY" (Col. 1:18). Those who are INSIDE his BODY, the CHURCH are RECONCILED to God through the cross (Eph. 2:16) because INSIDE the BODY, they RECEIVE redemption through his blood, the FORGIVENESS of sin (Col. 1:14).

You're simply taking the body analogy in scripture where Paul never intended it to go.

Of course, that's how the Holy Spirit teaches muzicman - "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor. 2:13).

Thanks for admitting that.

Again, when apostle Paul said "US" he was referring to the MEMBERS of the Church of Christ in Rome (Rom. 1:7). In other words, he was addressing the CHURCH in Rome.

"Us" refers to thsoe who are no longer under condemnation. Nowhere does Paul have the church in mind.

In Luke 12:32, Jesus called his apostles "little flock." In Acts 20:28 (Lamsa), apostle Paul called the flock "Church of Christ."

Yet, neither implies an authoritative structure or anything more than those who believe in Him.

This is a FALSE doctrine. that did NOT come from one who has the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:12).

Ah, the ad homenim attack. The last vestage of the defeated.

The CHURCH that Christ GAVE his life for (Eph. 5:25) was called, in the English language, the Church of Christ (Acts 20:28 Lamsa) and MEMBERS were called "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16). They were VISIBLE and easily RECOGNIZABLE. The CHURCH had a central administration composed of elders and apostles with headquarters in Jerusalem (Acts 15:2).

Yet, it was James who is the authority, and that church wasn't in Rome, but in Jerusalem. There are all kinds of problems for the RCC in Acts 15, and there STILL isn't any permanent authority structure in place here.

Michael

[IncRus]

I have considered many things about Jesus saving all. I conclude that there is ample evidence in either stance one takes. And that is confusing to me. The bible seems to say not all will make it, it then also seems to say all will. Whatever kind of person you are can feed on either, I am confused by both.

I perfectly understand the situation you are in. The Bible is NOT meant to be studied WITHOUT the guidance of someone who HAS the Spirit of God. And the one who HAS the Spirit of God is he who is SENT by God.

The Bible illustrates this in the case of apostle Philip who was SENT by the Spirit to talk to a learned eunuch who was in charge of the Ethiopian queen's treasury and was reading Isaiah the prophet (Acts 8:27-29). Apostle Philip asked the eunuch if he understood what he was reading and the eunuch answered, "How can I unless someonbe guides me?" (Acts 8:30-31).

For example Romans 5;.verse 6 is simple to me. It very plainly, simply, and without confusion states "While we were helpless, at the right time Christ died for the unGodly". Then verse 8 says while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. You know, this is just simple, yet some want to believe Jesus didnot die for sinners. The verse does not say Jesus died for the righteous, BUT-- he did, because Christ died for everyone--- WHY, because all have sinned and he died for their sins. But then when people BECOME righteous, something happens to them. They want to exclude sinners from salvation. They become so righteous, that the more righteous they become, it seems the more sinful sinners become also. Now if God is like this, then sinners are doomed, no question. If God is so righteous that sinners are pushed away from him the more they sin, then sinners just have no chance, UNLESS something happens to them and they catch this righteous thing. But thats another story that confuses me, how much of Gods righteousness can cancel out sin and change the sinner and what sinner can be so lucky to receive that.

Here, you already MISUNDERSTOOD what you read. Apostle Paul's letter is NOT addressed to EVERYONE. It is addressed to "All who are in Rome, beloved of God, CALLED to be saints" (Rom. 1:7). Paul is telling these SAINTS in Rome that "while they were STILL sinners, Christ DIED for them."

This letter was NOT addressed to Pharisees and Scribes and NEITHER was it addressed to pagan Greeks. This letter was addressed to people in Rome who have been "baptized INTO the one BODY" (1 Cor. 12:13) and are the "BODY of Christ" (1 Cor. 12:27). This is the "one body" where ALL those whom God CALLED into the fellowship of Christ (1 Cor. 1:9) are found (Col. 3:15).

Verse 18 of Rom. 5 is of intrest also. Because of ONE sin ALL men are condemned, no righteous christian seems to doubt the use of the word all here, probally because it condemns everyone, a common theme in righteous people, something I seriously dislike, so I quess that means I dislike righteousness. I don't think thats fair of God to condemn everyone because of the sin of one. The gall of God. But heres the thing people on earth seem to miss, the second part of the verse, even though, through one act of righteousness all men are justified. Verse 17, 16, 19 and 20 all say the same thing. The same gall God had to condemn everyone, he turns around and forgives everyone and justifys them all.

I DON'T read "ALL men are justified" in my New King James Version of Rom. 5:18. "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to ALL men resulting in condemnation, EVEN so through one man's righteous act, the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification for life" (Rom. 5:18 NKJV).

Apostle Paul explains the meaning of this verse in Rom. 6:23 NKJV, "For the WAGES of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Through the sin of Adam, ALL men are condemned to DIE (Rom. 6:23) a second death at the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14). But through the death of Christ on the cross, the FREE GIFT of eternal life is OFFERED to ALL resulting in JUSTIFICATION for life - for those who BELIEVE Jesus and "ENTER the flock" (John 10:7,9) or get "baptized INTO the one BODY" (1 Cor. 12:13; Mark 16:15-16), "HIS body, the CHURCH" (Eph. 1:22-23) of which Christ is the HEAD (Col. 1:18).

Thus, Romans 5:9 is addressed to the SAINTS in Rome who have been "JUSTFIED by the blood of Christ and will be SAVED from wrath through Christ."

You don't have to remain in a state of confusion mickiel. God's Plan of Salvation is NOT confusing at all IF someone who HAS the Spirit of God GUIDES you in understanding God's word.

[IncRus]

The truth is, Jesus CANNOT die FOR the whole world because the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God DEMANDS that "each man shall die for his OWN sin" (Deut. 24:16; Ezek. 18:20).
While I'm a limited atonement guy myself (L in TULIP), your statement here sorta shows that you are weird.

GoBahnsen,

To you it is weird because you have NOT come to the knowledge of the TRUTH. You have NOT heard of the relationship between Jesus' death on the cross to the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God.

Forget about Calvinism and Arminianism! The MORE important thing is: Is the church you belong to, the SAME church that Christ GAVE his life for?

And what would that be? One that does enough good works?

The fact that you are asking "what would that be" is evidence that the church you belong to is NOT the SAME church that Christ GAVE his life for.

[mickiel]

Thus, Romans 5:9 is addressed to the SAINTS in Rome who have been "JUSTFIED by the blood of Christ and will be SAVED from wrath through Christ."

You don't have to remain in a state of confusion mickiel. God's Plan of Salvation is NOT confusing at all IF someone who HAS the Spirit of God GUIDES you in understanding God's word.



No human being alive will ever get their righteous paws on me. If I am to come to understand God, it will only be from him or his Spirit, I want nor need a human in-between. And I will tell you why, because all humans are fracted up, confused and as deceived as I am. If the only way to salvation is through another human, God can keep it. I have been had my fill of human interpitation and leadership. I will have no more of it.

Thats the main reason I walk alone, there is nothing human worth following.

The way you see those verses I listed, is exactly how christianity sees them, just as shortsighted as any pharisee who loves limited atonement. If the gospel you see is the only gospel, I gladly accept damnation. I want no part of a God who willnot save everyone.

Peace, Mickiel.

[IncRus]

The WHOLE world will NOT be saved. Only those who BELIEVE Jesus shall have everlasting life (John 3:16). Jesus is the PROPITIATION (atoning sacrifice) for the sins of the WHOLE world, but ONLY those who HEAR the TRUE gospel, BELIEVE the TRUE gospel and BAPTIZED (Mark 16:15-16) "into the ONE body" (1 Cor. 12:13) will be SAVED.
Thus, Christ's death is sufficient for the whole world, and salvation is then dependent on those who choose to believe. It's the only way scripture makes sense.

That's true. However, it depends on WHAT gospel one HEARS and BELIEVES. Apostle Paul wrote that "the gospel of Christ is God's power to salvatioin for everyone who BELIEVES, for the Jew first and also the Greek. For in it (the gospel) the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God is REVEALED from faith to faith; as it is written, The just shall live by faith" (Rom. 1:16-17).

Rom. 5:18 does NOT say "justification to all." Here's what Rom. 5:18 TRULY says: "Therefore, as through one man's offense JUDGMENT came to ALL men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one MAN's righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in JUSTIFICATION to life."
Key being "to all men".

Judgment - NOT justification came - to ALL men.

SALVATION is the free gift that CAME to all men but only those who are REDEEMED by Christ's blood and receive FORGIVENESS of sins are JUSTIFIED by his blood (Rom. 5:9) or "qualified as partakers of the inheritance of the saints" (Col. 1:12).
And faith is the condition.

Apostle James says, "faith made perfect by works" (James 2:22).

The first-century Church of Christ was a VISIBLE organization, an authoritative structure, complete with officers appointed by God (1 Cor. 12:28). To become the "body of Christ and member individually" (1 Cor. 12:27), one was "baptized INTO the ONE body" (1 Cor. 12:13) or "baptized INTO Christ" (Gal. 3:27). Those who were "baptized into the ONE body" first HEARD the gospel FROM preachers SENT by God, then BELIEVED what they HEARD and finally got BAPTIZED into the ONE body just as Jesus said in Mark 16:15-16.
Except that the first church didn't have an authortative structure beyond the local church. The body isn't an organization or an authority structure. The body is all those who have believed in Christ for salvation.

The first-century CHURCH was the ONLY Christian church at that time. Members congregated in various localities and ALL belonged to the spiritual "body of Christ," a VISIBLE and organized religious BODY which apostle Paul called the "Church of Christ" (Acts 20:28 Lamsa). Authority came from a council of elders and apostles headquartered in Jerusalem (Acts 15:2) which rendered decisions and promulgated rules (Acts 16:4).

2 Cor. 5:21 was written by apostle Paul. "US" and "WE" refer to MEMBERS of the "one body of Christ" (Rom. 12:4-5) - the VISIBLE and organized Church of Christ in Rome (Rom. 1:7).
You're reading that into the text. That's not Paul's intent. Paul CERTAINLY doesn't have the Roman church in mind, here.

You don't really know what Paul had in mind, do you? 2 Cor. 5:21 was writen to the Church of God in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints. These are people whom apostle Paul said were "baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13) and members individually of the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27).

Apostle Paul did NOT write that "righteousness is the gift of God to those who believe." And Christ's "atoning sacrifice" at the cross BENEFITS only those who are "INSIDE the ONE body who are RECONCILED to God through the cross" (Eph. 2:16).
Unfortunately, you have bad Ecclesiology.

It's bad Ecclesiology because it does NOT fit your theology, right?

You mean "PHYSICALLY in Christ" muzicman? How can that be possible?
No, I mean those who believe in Him.
Those who TRULY believe Jesus are "baptized INTO the one body" (1 Cor. 12:13), the VISIBLE and ORGANIZED religious body called Church of Christ.

"Christ is the HEAD of the CHURCH, his BODY" (Col. 1:18). Those who are INSIDE his BODY, the CHURCH are RECONCILED to God through the cross (Eph. 2:16) because INSIDE the BODY, they RECEIVE redemption through his blood, the FORGIVENESS of sin (Col. 1:14).
You're simply taking the body analogy in scripture where Paul never intended it to go.

Again, you don't really know what Paul had in mind, do you? The CHURCH is the "spiritual body OF Christ" (Eph. 1:22-23) of which Christ is the HEAD (Col. 1:18). Christ AND the church is the "ONE NEW MAN" that Christ created in himself (Eph. 2:15). Christ being the HEAD died for the sins of HIS body, the church. He GAVE his life for it (Eph. 5:25) and PURCHASED it with his own blood (Acts 20:28).

Of course, that's how the Holy Spirit teaches muzicman - "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor. 2:13).
Thanks for admitting that.
I'm not only admitting it muzicman. I'm also using it as you can see.

Again, when apostle Paul said "US" he was referring to the MEMBERS of the Church of Christ in Rome (Rom. 1:7). In other words, he was addressing the CHURCH in Rome.
"Us" refers to thsoe who are no longer under condemnation. Nowhere does Paul have the church in mind.

You don't know for sure that Paul DIDN'T have the church in mind, do you? Apostle Paul wrote, "There is therefore now NO condemnation to those who are IN CHRIST..." (Rom. 8:1). Thus, "US" refers to those who are "IN CHRIST" or INSIDE the spiritual body OF Christ, the Church of Christ. There is NO way that one CAN be "in Christ" unless one is INSIDE the church that Christ BUILT (Matt.16:18), HIS "spiritual body."

In Luke 12:32, Jesus called his apostles "little flock." In Acts 20:28 (Lamsa), apostle Paul called the flock "Church of Christ."
Yet, neither implies an authoritative structure or anything more than those who believe in Him.
The first-century church was a VISIBLE and ORGANIZED religious body like a flock that has one shepherd. God appointed first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues" (1 Cor. 12:28). Anyone can see that the church had a structured organization.

This is a FALSE doctrine. that did NOT come from one who has the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:12).
Ah, the ad homenim attack. The last vestage of the defeated.
God gave you intelligence to choose between TRUTH and FALSEHOOD. You can evaluate that doctrine whether it comes from one who has the Spirit of God or not. If it is supported by the Bible, then it comes from one who has the Spirit of God. Otherwise it is a FALSE doctrine.

The CHURCH that Christ GAVE his life for (Eph. 5:25) was called, in the English language, the Church of Christ (Acts 20:28 Lamsa) and MEMBERS were called "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16). They were VISIBLE and easily RECOGNIZABLE. The CHURCH had a central administration composed of elders and apostles with headquarters in Jerusalem (Acts 15:2).
Yet, it was James who is the authority, and that church wasn't in Rome, but in Jerusalem. There are all kinds of problems for the RCC in Acts 15, and there STILL isn't any permanent authority structure in place here.

Firstly, the Bible is NOT referring to the RCC. Secondly, we are NOT talking of a "PERMANENT authority structure." But the Bible attests that there was an authority structure. At that time, apostle James was the one making the decision for the whole Church of Christ. Decisions and rules came from Jerusalem for compliance by ALL members who congregated everywhere in the regions of Judea, Samaria, and elsewhere.

[IncRus]

No human being alive will ever get their righteous paws on me. If I am to come to understand God, it will only be from him or his Spirit, I want nor need a human in-between. And I will tell you why, because all humans are fracted up, confused and as deceived as I am. If the only way to salvation is through another human, God can keep it. I have been had my fill of human interpitation and leadership. I will have no more of it.

Thats the main reason I walk alone, there is nothing human worth following.

The way you see those verses I listed, is exactly how christianity sees them, just as shortsighted as any pharisee who loves limited atonement. If the gospel you see is the only gospel, I gladly accept damnation. I want no part of a God who willnot save everyone.

Peace, Mickiel.

If that's how you feel mickiel, what can I say? I don't get paid sharing these TRUTHS with anyone.

But let me ask you mickiel, will God save even those who do NOT know God or do NOT obey the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ? Then these verses will make you eat your words. You CANNOT afford to "have no part with God who will NOT save everyone."

"...When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do NOT know God, and on those who do NOT obey the gospel (message) of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power" (2 Thes. 1:7-9).

Can you OBEY the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ when you DON'T even know what it is?

BTW mickiel, did you know that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)?

[docjam]

I do believe that Jesus did indeed die for all. He's also given evreyone free will in their decision which is why the whole world isn't saved. Picture this, a mother, father and six children are living at home(cuz after all, if they weren't living there it wouldn't be called home now would it). Let's try that again. A mother is at home with her six children. The father is on his way home from work when he stops and gets pizza for dinner for the family. He brings the dinner home and it's there for everyone to eat. YEAH FOR PIZZA. However, the oldest child already has dinner plans with his girlfriend, the oldest girl is on a low-carb diet and chooses to eat a salad and some yogurt. The next oldest started a fast this morning so she won't be eating with ya. That leaves the three youngest, you and your wife.

The fact the your three oldest kids are chosing to not eat the pizza doesn't change the fact that the pizza is there for them to eat, if they chose to do so. Salvation is the same way. Christ died for us all, just because we're too busy sometimes to stop and receive it doesn't mean it's not there for us. Just because we do something else and neglect what's been made free for all of us, doesn't change the fact that it's still there for us.

Now daddy bought five pizzas, but since the three oldest aren't going to be eating with the family, there's two left over. Does the father say, since you're not eating, you gotta pay me back for those pizzas? Absolutely not (unless you're living in some twisted whacked out family). He still has payed for those pizza. The price was paid and the only person really at a loss is the father who lost a few dollars spending money on the extra pizzas. When Christ died for us, every one of us, He's the one that took the physical loss and died so that we may live. The kids aren't in debt for their pizza. Though some ate and some didn't, they all paid the same...NOTHING. They only difference is that the three younger kids chose to eat. We can chose Christ, or Buddha, or Muhammed or everyone else but the bottom line is Christ still died for US! If they date didn't show and the oldest kid was hungry, he could still come home and eat some of the left over pizza. In the same way, we could spend our life in an occult but if we one day wake up and realize how awful it is, Christ's grace is still there for that ex-cult member just the same as it was for me. It's not whether He died for us, because He indeed died for every one of us, it's whether or not we choose to accept the free gift of salvation (or pizza).

[IncRus]

I do believe that Jesus did indeed die for all. He's also given evreyone free will in their decision which is why the whole world isn't saved. Picture this, a mother, father and six children are living at home(cuz after all, if they weren't living there it wouldn't be called home now would it). Let's try that again. A mother is at home with her six children. The father is on his way home from work when he stops and gets pizza for dinner for the family. He brings the dinner home and it's there for everyone to eat. YEAH FOR PIZZA. However, the oldest child already has dinner plans with his girlfriend, the oldest girl is on a low-carb diet and chooses to eat a salad and some yogurt. The next oldest started a fast this morning so she won't be eating with ya. That leaves the three youngest, you and your wife.

The fact the your three oldest kids are chosing to not eat the pizza doesn't change the fact that the pizza is there for them to eat, if they chose to do so. Salvation is the same way. Christ died for us all, just because we're too busy sometimes to stop and receive it doesn't mean it's not there for us. Just because we do something else and neglect what's been made free for all of us, doesn't change the fact that it's still there for us.

Now daddy bought five pizzas, but since the three oldest aren't going to be eating with the family, there's two left over. Does the father say, since you're not eating, you gotta pay me back for those pizzas? Absolutely not (unless you're living in some twisted whacked out family). He still has payed for those pizza. The price was paid and the only person really at a loss is the father who lost a few dollars spending money on the extra pizzas. When Christ died for us, every one of us, He's the one that took the physical loss and died so that we may live. The kids aren't in debt for their pizza. Though some ate and some didn't, they all paid the same...NOTHING. They only difference is that the three younger kids chose to eat. We can chose Christ, or Buddha, or Muhammed or everyone else but the bottom line is Christ still died for US! If they date didn't show and the oldest kid was hungry, he could still come home and eat some of the left over pizza. In the same way, we could spend our life in an occult but if we one day wake up and realize how awful it is, Christ's grace is still there for that ex-cult member just the same as it was for me. It's not whether He died for us, because He indeed died for every one of us, it's whether or not we choose to accept the free gift of salvation (or pizza).

semmie's brother,

Christ's death is the "atoning sacrifice" for the sins of men. But the Bible says that Christ GAVE his life for the CHURCH, his "spiritual BODY" (Eph. 5:25). Christ PURCHASED the Church of Christ with his own blood (Acts 20:28 Lamsa).

Hence, Christ did NOT die for ALL or his death does NOT benefit ALL.

While your analogy is close, it does NOT depict the true picture. It presents a FALSE picture that one does NOT have to do ANYTHING to receive the FREE GIFT of salvation.

Chist's death on the cross is likened to a man who decides to buy a truckload of candies on Halloweeeen for ALL the kids on the block. However, the man sets the CONDITION that only kids who knock on his door will receive their share of the candies.

The kids are given the "free will" to choose whether to COMPLY with the man's CONDITION or not. And ONLY those who knock on the man's door will benefit from the FREE GIFT.

[mickiel]

If that's how you feel mickiel, what can I say? I don't get paid sharing these TRUTHS with anyone.


I don't know what truth is anymore, but I do know its not what christians teach, and many of them get paid real good to teach it. But its good to know you believe in something young man.







But let me ask you mickiel, will God save even those who do NOT know God or do NOT obey the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ? Then these verses will make you eat your words. You CANNOT afford to "have no part with God who will NOT save everyone."



Listen man, I have had my full of suffering and sin. I have tried so many times to be perfect, and each time I failed. The only hope I have is that God will complettely forgive sinners , or I am simply doomed. I can accept that, maybe eternal life is just for people like you. Because if its not for sinners like me, then 90% of created humanity is doomed along with me. I just have an inside hope that the way you teach salvation is off a good bit from how God really is.
If salvation is only for good people, I am just not going to be given it. I am not good.




"...When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do NOT know God, and on those who do NOT obey the gospel (message) of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power" (2 Thes. 1:7-9).


If God punishes people for not knowing him, again I say, I want no part of a God who would do such a thing. I gladly accept seperation from such an evil thing.




Can you OBEY the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ when you DON'T even know what it is?


My sentiments exactly. And you believe God will punish people for not knowing him, thus not obeying him. How in the world of sane reason can a person do those things unless God helps them to do it?




BTW mickiel, did you know that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)?


I believe those things, yes.

[IncRus]

If that's how you feel mickiel, what can I say? I don't get paid sharing these TRUTHS with anyone.
I don't know what truth is anymore, but I do know its not what christians teach, and many of them get paid real good to teach it. But its good to know you believe in something young man.

You must be pulling my leg mickiel. If you don't know what truth is anymore, how can you know that what Christians teach is NOT the TRUTH?

I definitely know what TRUTH is mickiel. Jesus said it himself when he prayed to the Father (John 17:1), "Sanctify them with your TRUTH. Your WORD is TRUTH" (John 17:17). Professing Christians BELIEVE and proclaim that the Bible is God's WORD. Therefore, the ONLY truth there is, is God's WORD that is WRITEN in the Bible.

But let me ask you mickiel, will God save even those who do NOT know God or do NOT obey the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ? Then these verses will make you eat your words. You CANNOT afford to "have no part with God who will NOT save everyone."
Listen man, I have had my full of suffering and sin. I have tried so many times to be perfect, and each time I failed. The only hope I have is that God will complettely forgive sinners , or I am simply doomed. I can accept that, maybe eternal life is just for people like you. Because if its not for sinners like me, then 90% of created humanity is doomed along with me.

God SENT Jesus to save God's people from their sins (Matt. 1:21). Jesus said that "God SENT him that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:18). However, the CONDITION is you must HEAR the gospel (message) of Christ, BELIEVE it (Mark 16:15-16; John 3:16) and OBEY (2 Thes. 1:7-9).

Thus, eternal life is ONLY for people who HEAR the TRUE gospel of Christ, BELIEVE what they HEAR and OBEY. These people are FOUND only in the "one BODY or CHURCH" that Christ GAVE his life for (Eph. 5:25), the CHURCH that Christ PURCHASED with his own blood (Acts 20:28 Lamsa), the CHURCH that Christ WILL save (Eph. 5:23).

I just have an inside hope that the way you teach salvation is off a good bit from how God really is.

You must be kidding mickiel. How can you know that the way I teach salvation is "off a good bit from how God really is" when you have admitted that "you don't know what the truth is anymore?"

If salvation is only for good people, I am just not going to be given it. I am not good.

Salvation is NOT only for good people. Apostle Peter said, "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to ALL who are far off, as MANY as the Lord our God will CALL" (Acts 2:39). Apostle Paul says God CALLS people to the fellowship of Christ (1 Cor. 1:9) THROUGH the GOSPEL of Christ (2 Thes. 2:14). Therefore, salvation is GIVEN to people who WANT to LISTEN to the TRUE gospel of Christ, BELIEVE what they HEAR and OBEY.

"...When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do NOT know God, and on those who do NOT obey the gospel (message) of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power" (2 Thes. 1:7-9).

If God punishes people for not knowing him, again I say, I want no part of a God who would do such a thing. I gladly accept seperation from such an evil thing.

But there is NO excuse for NOT knowing God mickiel. That's why God will punish who does NOT know him. God SENT Jesus to DECLARE who God is. Jesus said to the Father, "And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God..." (John 17:3). And apostle John said, "Now by this we KNOW Him if we KEEP His commandments" (1 John 2:3).

Can you OBEY the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ when you DON'T even know what it is?
My sentiments exactly. And you believe God will punish people for not knowing him, thus not obeying him. How in the world of sane reason can a person do those things unless God helps them to do it?
The help that you expect from God is found in His messengers, the people He SENDS. John says, "He who is SENT by God SPEAKS God's words" (John 3:34).

Jesus was SENT by God to declare to you who God is. Jesus was SENT by God to to declare to you God's Plan of Salvation. After Jesus ascended to heaven, he left behind his apostles to CONTINUE his mission of declaring to people who God is and God's Plan of Salvation.

After the apostles died, the CHURCH went into "apostasy." The people to whom the apostles entrusted God's word DEPARTED from the faith. Instead of ABIDING in the doctrines of Christ, they established their OWN doctrines. INSTEAD of teaching that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3), these people TAUGHT that Jesus is God and the ONLY true God is the Father AND the Son AND the Holy Spirit.

In 1914, God SENT His messenger to bring Jesus' "other sheep INTO the one fold or flock" (John 10:16) THROUGH the preaching of the TRUE gospel of Christ. That's why there is NO more excuse for NOT knowing God and NOT obeying the TRUE gospel of Christ.

BTW mickiel, did you know that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)?
I believe those things, yes.

Good! Then there is HOPE for you to be saved. Just keep your mind OPEN to the words of God and eventually, you may yet find the TRUE Path to Salvation.