What's so great about marriage, anyway?

[Aravis]

I am now nineteen years old and have come to the conclusion that getting married is not a goal for me, at least not at this point. (I think I'm a bit young for that, anyway.)

However, the more I think about it, I can't see how my life would be better if I ultimately end up married. I desire independence more than anything else. My current plans are to go to graduate school and, hopefully, become a college professor or something of that sort. I would like having the freedom to move where I choose, when I choose, without having other people to depend on me.

At the same time, I wonder if I will achieve everything that I now dream of, and then wish I had something different.

Of course, I certainly haven't ruled out marriage at this point, anyway, but, as I said, it isn't a goal for me--it's more of an "If the right person comes along and it's clear" stance. But with all the hardships and difficulties of making a marriage work, was Paul right when he said, "I say to the unmarried and to widows: It is good for them if they remain as I am." (1 Cor 7.8) and "So then he who marries his virgin does well, but he who does not marry will do better" (1 Cor 7.38)? If one can restrain one's sexual impulses, is singlehood not better?

Just what are the benefits and rewards of marriage?

[Patroclus]

First of all, you are taking Paul's words out of their historical context. Paul believed that Christ was coming back to judge the world yesterday. The idea, it seems, for Paul is that Christian service is so urgent, that all other endeavors were hinderances.

As far as your goals and dreams are concerned, I have much the same ambitions. I want to earn my M.A.; I want to go to Oxford to earn my Dphil; I want to establish myself as a writer and a critic, and I want to become a college professor. However, for me, there is a desire for partnership. One set is external, the other is internal.

I think the question is, would your life be enhanced by a complimentary partner?

[Aravis]

Today @ 12:38 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=129312#post129312)
Patroclus:

First of all, you are taking Paul's words out of their historical context. Paul believed that Christ was coming back to judge the world yesterday. The idea, it seems, for Paul is that Christian service is so urgent, that all other endeavors were hinderances.

Oh, you're correct as far as that is concerned. I'm glad you called me on it. :teeth:

As far as your goals and dreams are concerned, I have much the same ambitions. I want to earn my M.A.; I want to go to Oxford to earn my Dphil; I want to establish myself as a writer and a critic, and I want to become a college professor. However, for me, there is a desire for partnership. One set is external, the other is internal.

I think the question is, would your life be enhanced by a complimentary partner?

I think in actuality I still believe that I'd rather have partnership, but perhaps doubt finding it. Also, I don't have any particular desire for children at this point, so I don't feel like a husband is a requirement for what I perceive as the most important functions in my life, unlike some young women I know who believe they were created for motherhood.

I want to be single, but if I'm really honest with myself, I want some brilliant man to come along and talk me out of it. Or maybe I just don't know what I want...

Any comments from the elders--or not-so-elders?

[Patroclus]

Today @ 10:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=129318#post129318)
Aravis:



Oh, you're correct as far as that is concerned. I'm glad you called me on it. :teeth:

No problem.

I think in actuality I still believe that I'd rather have partnership, but perhaps doubt finding it.

I know the feeling sometimes.

[Jaltus]

Marriage is not or at least should not be a goal. Marriage is what happens when you decide you want to be closer to your best friend who happens to be of the opposite sex. This can happen early in life (I got married at a very young age) or much later in life (I have friends getting married in their 30s and know of some getting married in their late 40s).

Marriage should not be a goal, it should be something that happens. The true goal is to live the life God calls you to, whether it involves marriage or not. I honestly thought I would not get married until I was much older, and yet I was totally wrong.

Marriage does have a lot of benefits, but it also has a lot of drawbacks as well, depending on the kind of person you are. For me, I need my wife, she compliments me very well and I would be very lost and incomplete without her. She is the practical one and I am the dreamer.

I would not worry too much about marriage. If God wants you to be married, He will show you.

[Jade]

Yesterday @ 11:27 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=129292#post129292)
Aravis:

I am now nineteen years old and have come to the conclusion that getting married is not a goal for me, at least not at this point. (I think I'm a bit young for that, anyway.)

Heh-heh, look out. At the time that you decide not to think about marriage/dating/guys/etc. -- that's when they sometimes seem to come out of the woodwork. So just be prepared in case the guys start lining up at your door. :wink:

However, the more I think about it, I can't see how my life would be better if I ultimately end up married. I desire independence more than anything else. My current plans are to go to graduate school and, hopefully, become a college professor or something of that sort. I would like having the freedom to move where I choose, when I choose, without having other people to depend on me.

At the same time, I wonder if I will achieve everything that I now dream of, and then wish I had something different.

Of course, I certainly haven't ruled out marriage at this point, anyway, but, as I said, it isn't a goal for me--it's more of an "If the right person comes along and it's clear" stance. But with all the hardships and difficulties of making a marriage work, was Paul right when he said, "I say to the unmarried and to widows: It is good for them if they remain as I am." (1 Cor 7.8) and "So then he who marries his virgin does well, but he who does not marry will do better" (1 Cor 7.38)? If one can restrain one's sexual impulses, is singlehood not better?

Just what are the benefits and rewards of marriage?

Paul has some good advice there. Be content in whatsoever state you are -- whether married or single. However don't let yourself become closed to marriage as it is sanctioned by God, and he isn't arbitrary about thing. Marriage can provide a great deal of intimacy, and I believe it to be a foretaste of Heaven. But there are some single folk whom calls to lifetime of celebacy (I think that these people will not have the desire to get married). And others perhaps for only a short time of celebacy.

However, if some handsome man comes to sweep you off your feet some day, be as gentle as doves but as crafty as foxes. Learn as much as you can about him before you let yourselfaway.
:thumb:

[India]

Also, I don't have any particular desire for children at this point, so I don't feel like a husband is a requirement for what I perceive as the most important functions in my life, unlike some young women I know who believe they were created for motherhood.

I don't have kids myself, but I have talked to a lot of women whose perspective on it changed after they had kids. There are a lot of women who think they won't be into being a mother, that they'd rather have a career, etc. - and then they have kids, and they're surprised by how much they enjoy being mothers.

I'm not trying to say that you should get married and have kids; maybe God has designed for you to be single and/or not have children. I just know that people's feelings on having children change over time, so don't be surprised if you don't always feel this way (or be afraid if it turns out that God does plan for you to have kids).

Personally, I enjoy being married a great deal and I'm very grateful that I have someone who is with me as my partner in dealing with life. But as other people have said, the important thing is for you to be willing to do what God wants you to do, whether it's marry or remain single.

[$cirisme]

I need my wife, she compliments me very well

You married her because she says nice things about you? :hrm:

:poke:

[Sher]

Today @ 04:10 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=130270#post130270)
cirisme:

You married her because she says nice things about you? :hrm:

:poke:

:shocked:

Headlines: Grammar Police Officer busted ... News at 11

:lol:

[Patroclus]

It isn't exactly bad grammar. It is one of those onederful absurdities of the Agunish Languish.

[Omega Red]

When I was 19 I felt that the last thing I wanted was a wife and children. Seeing my brother come into this world was a real put off most of the time (18 year age gap). I also come from a broken home and living in the aftermath is really unpleasant and gave me a rather blackened view of married life. Yet my sister got married at 18, loads of kids and is really happy!?! Anyway, I wanted to pursue a career in research and didn't have time to waste on such frivolities.

10 years further down the line, I have changed my tune completely and I am very excited about the prospects of getting married (5 months away now). Whilst the idea of having my own children is still daunting, I at least find quite a bit of appeal to it now. Research is great, but it doesn't complete my world.

My future wife also felt (just before we met) that she didn’t want to get married, she admits a preconceived notion that her freedom would be taken away. Not just personal freedom, but also to follow God wherever he asks her to go. She has spent some time working on Logos2 and felt that a husband (and definitely children) would inhibit her in following God. So we've both come to a more realistic understanding of marriage beyond our preconceived notions. I'm sure there'll be hundreds of thousands of Christian couples that will say marriage is not limiting but liberating. I guess I will have to hold judgement for a few years into my own marriage!

I see it as a personal thing. Not everyone wants or will get married. There's no prerequisite in life to get married and there's no rush.

[Aravis]

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

To clarify, this isn't really an issue that worries me; I feel like I am where God wants me to be at this point. Nevertheless, I am (I think understandably) curious about this thing that everyone desires and just what it's like...

[automatthew]

Aravis said, in part: I desire independence more than anything else.

From experience, I would say that this is a form of despair.

I was fortunate in realizing the destructiveness of this desire for independence above all else before it could ruin me. That realization was directly responsible for my choice to give up my demands of independence and force myself back into social embeddedness and entangling dependencies (both mine and others'). That choice led more or less directly to meeting the woman I courted and married.

My answer to your initial question is this:

Marriage saves you from yourself.


Matthew

[darcutm]

Aravis,
Just remember that God doesn't see such a relationship as a hinderance...
Remember that God actually walked with Adam in the cool of the day and still said, "It's not good that man should be alone".

Getting married in just a few short weeks myself :smitten: I can see what Sher said about marriage being freedom...Being a covenant relationship, the very essence of marriage can be seen as "all my weakness are absorbed in your strengths and all my strengths absorb your weaknesses". That's a very freeing scenario, b/c you aren't held by some "family shackle", but you have the completion that fits all your missing parts and allows you to do what you want, where you want. It's fine to not see yourself getting married now, but don't sell yourself short ahead of time.

IN HIM

By the way--age isn't always such the determining factor....I will be twenty a week after my wedding...(yes, that's younger than the average age, no letters please.)

[TucTuc]

I'd like to post A LOT more on this when I have time. The question 'what is so great about marriage?' misses the point from the beginning if what you're really asking is 'what do I get out of marriage?'

I will expand on this later, but for now, suffice it to say that marriage is not designed to make us 'happy' - it is designed to make us holy, improving our character, as it were. It does this by requiring us to make sacrifices, whereby we become less selfish and more willing to truly give of ourselves in pursuit of a greater good... (more to follow!)

[AtheistArchon]

- Do NOT get married 'because god wants you to'. That's just not good enough, sorry. I've known many a good Christian end up in divorce because they felt it was their biblical duty to get married to the person next to them in the pew.

- Do NOT get married because of any outside influences. Nobody else, no pastors, no ministers, nobody knows what will make YOU happy. Only you know that. Use your brain, listen to yourself.

- Do NOT feel like you have to marry at all. If you change your mind later and want to settle down with one person, then fine. Take your time, and don't rush it man. Women are like wine. =) Trust me on this. And before you're 30, you'll have a drastically different outlook on most things anyway.

- Finally, do not feel like you have to get married just so you have a license to have sex. It's fine if you're the kind of person who wants to be a virgin and all and save all that awkwardness for your wedding night, but don't rush it.

I will expand on this later, but for now, suffice it to say that marriage is not designed to make us 'happy' - it is designed to make us holy, improving our character, as it were.

- BS. Jibberish. A pathetic rationalization. What fool marries for UNhappiness? What kind of god pairs people up who aren't going to be happy together? This kind of talk makes me wonder how many Christians are sitting around, unhappy, married to people that don't make them happy anymore, thinking "Oh well, nothing I can do about it now, it must be a big TEST by god."

- Like I said... don't rush it, and you'll have a chance to actually BE happy in your marriage. If you want one at all. Sacrifices and selflessness is part of it, sure, but that does NOT mean you should be unhappy.

*boggle*

[TucTuc]

I will expand on this later, but for now, suffice it to say that marriage is not designed to make us 'happy' - it is designed to make us holy, improving our character, as it were. ”



- BS. Jibberish. A pathetic rationalization. What fool marries for UNhappiness?


It is NOT gibberish. I did not suggest that people 'marry for unhappiness' (strawman, anyone?) Marrying someone you love DOES make you happy, in the way that serving God always makes you happy. What I meant is that, at least FOR A CHRISTIAN, more has to go into the decision than personal selfishness. FOR A CHRISTIAN, AtheistArchon; feel free to ignore the advice if you want.

[Sher]

07-22-2003 @ 03:08 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=155445#post155445)
AtheistArchon:

Jibberish. A pathetic rationalization. What fool marries for UNhappiness? What kind of god pairs people up who aren't going to be happy together? This kind of talk makes me wonder how many Christians are sitting around, unhappy, married to people that don't make them happy anymore, thinking "Oh well, nothing I can do about it now, it must be a big TEST by god."

Crud, AA ... we should never even partially agree on something :eek: ... I am sure there are many people who are in this situation ... and they are thinking wrongly.

You have confused the cause here though. There are far too many people unhappy ... and getting divorced ... who didn't LISTEN to God ... either through His Word ... and/or directly. People who unequally yoked ... married for the wrong reasons ... or just plain didn't wait until God really did speak to them that it was right ... instead taking their own opinions ... their own horomones ... and running full steam ahead like a bull in a china shop ... all because they were in love ... lust really ... or whatever reason made them marry without God's blessings.

It isn't "what kind of god" ... it is what kind of man (human) that doesn't open up their hearts to the love of God ... and listen to His voice.

:shersig:

P.S. AA, not even the initials of profanity are allowed, OK?

[AtheistArchon]

It is NOT gibberish. I did not suggest that people 'marry for unhappiness' (strawman, anyone?) Marrying someone you love DOES make you happy, in the way that serving God always makes you happy. What I meant is that, at least FOR A CHRISTIAN, more has to go into the decision than personal selfishness. FOR A CHRISTIAN, AtheistArchon; feel free to ignore the advice if you want.

- Christian, atheist, whatever. Plenty of Christians who put "serving god" first in a relationship ARE unhappy. I've met some. It's no guarantee!! And likewise, holding out and finding a person you're happy with (instead of who might "serve god better") isn't selfish.

- I did actually ignore your advice. =) But my concern in this thread isn't my own married life, it's our youth's here.

Crud, AA ... we should never even partially agree on something :eek: ... I am sure there are many people who are in this situation ... and they are thinking wrongly.

You have confused the cause here though. There are far too many people unhappy ... and getting divorced ... who didn't LISTEN to God ... either through His Word ... and/or directly. People who unequally yoked ... married for the wrong reasons ... or just plain didn't wait until God really did speak to them that it was right ... instead taking their own opinions ... their own horomones ... and running full steam ahead like a bull in a china shop ... all because they were in love ... lust really ... or whatever reason made them marry without God's blessings.

- Sorry, but whatever it is you're talking about, it isn't coherent. Are you trying to say that there's an objective set of god given rules a good Christian should follow that guarantees marital happiness? Or just that they should "listen to god", i.e. "put god first" instead of happiness and just HOPE god makes them happy somewhere down the line?

It isn't "what kind of god" ... it is what kind of man (human) that doesn't open up their hearts to the love of God ... and listen to His voice.

- This is exactly what I'm arguing against. It's oh-so simple for you to look at an unhappy Christian couple and say "Oh, they just didn't listen to god." Arrogance! How could you ever know that? In your mind, being religious exactly equals a guarantee of happiness, so obviously anyone who is unhappy wasn't "godly" enough. No true Scotsman, and so on.

- What I'm saying is that "putting god first" is a mistake. Crops don't grow on prayer, the house doesn't repaint itself on religious belief, and marriages don't just magically succeed just because both of you happen to worship the same thing. It's a recipe for unhappiness, especially given the strange chastity rituals most Christians endorse.

[darcutm]

Aravis--bear in mind that although you may not be married that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it quite the opposite.
Proverbs 18:22

22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.
KJV
(I would assume you could use the word husband and it still be a good thing)
IN HIM

[Aravis]

07-22-2003 @ 02:08 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=155445#post155445)
AtheistArchon:

- Finally, do not feel like you have to get married just so you have a license to have sex. It's fine if you're the kind of person who wants to be a virgin and all and save all that awkwardness for your wedding night, but don't rush it.

That's the most ridiculous argument for premarital sex I've ever heard. If such awkwardness is inevitable, I would certainly prefer to experience it with someone I had already emotionally bonded with rather than some early-in-life relationship whose fragile nonphysical bonds only increased the awkwardness. I have no doubt that when something is so new, it must be strange at first. However, I were marrying someone, I think I wouldn't mind being awkward around him, and I know we'd work through the awkwardness. If anything, the vulnerability of such an experience is an argument in favor of saving it for marriage.

Also, I agree that not all Christians should assume that God wants them to get married without praying about it, but you seem to be trying to convince me that God doesn't exist in the midst of your statements about marriage. That is, "Ignore these ideas about doing anything to please your 'god' because he doesn't exist"... Those aren't your exact words, but that's the message I'm reading. As I'm not about to lose my faith in God any time soon, that argument doesn't work for me.

[Esther]

AtheistArchon:

- Christian, atheist, whatever. Plenty of Christians who put "serving god" first in a relationship ARE unhappy. I've met some. It's no guarantee!! And likewise, holding out and finding a person you're happy with (instead of who might "serve god better") isn't selfish.

Forgive me ... Did Sher ever say serving God and being happy are mutually exclusive? I don't remember reading that. The assumption that serving God is altogether unpleasant is wrong.

- Sorry, but whatever it is you're talking about, it isn't coherent. Are you trying to say that there's an objective set of god given rules a good Christian should follow that guarantees marital happiness? Or just that they should "listen to god", i.e. "put god first" instead of happiness and just HOPE god makes them happy somewhere down the line?

Yes, there are God-given guidelines and while they don't guarantee marital happiness, they increase the chances of marital happiness substantially and, at worst, draw the individual following those guidelines closer to the God who instituted marriage in the first place.

And merely sitting back and hoping for the best has very little to do with it.



You have confused the cause here though. There are far too many people unhappy ... and getting divorced ... who didn't LISTEN to God ... either through His Word ... and/or directly. People who unequally yoked ... married for the wrong reasons ... or just plain didn't wait until God really did speak to them that it was right ... instead taking their own opinions ... their own horomones ... and running full steam ahead like a bull in a china shop ... all because they were in love ... lust really ... or whatever reason made them marry without God's blessings.

and

It isn't "what kind of god" ... it is what kind of man (human) that doesn't open up their hearts to the love of God ... and listen to His voice.

- This is exactly what I'm arguing against. It's oh-so simple for you to look at an unhappy Christian couple and say "Oh, they just didn't listen to god." Arrogance! How could you ever know that? In your mind, being religious exactly equals a guarantee of happiness, so obviously anyone who is unhappy wasn't "godly" enough. No true Scotsman, and so on.

That's not what she said. You're reading a harsh, judgemental tone into it that was not there. But to try to clarify Sher's point, though I don't think it needs it, it has not as much to do with being "godly" enough (or following the letter of the law, which is what you seem to be implying) as with acknowledging that God created marriage, He might (and indeed does!) have something to say about it and we would do well to seek His guidance on the matter.

Let me also add to what Sher was saying. When we leap headlong into a situation without seeking God's guidance and it goes sour, it does not mean we're stuck. Many times God does allow us to experience the consequences of our actions but His attitude is not, "Now look what you did, ya moron. :whack: "

Agreeing with Sher,

Esther

[ChrisChillin]

Hey Aravis, let's go dress up as fantasy characters again! Maybe in the next quest, we can figure out some spells for you to use against white ninjas on EV boardwalks (nyuk nyuk nyuk).

As for AtheistArchon's posts, leave it to him to mischaracterize and misrepresent something as he seeks to squeeze in an argument. As usual, his house is made of straw and his attempt to read the minds of Christians and judge all with one broadbrush leaves me doing this: :no:

From your Chillin's logical half, there is the statistical data that supports a general increase in happiness. Consider the following information from The Pursuit of Happiness (Dr. David G. Myers, Avon Books, 1992):

In the United States, for example, fewer than 25 percent of unmarried adults but nearly 40 percent of married adults report being "very happy."...However, even more important than being married is the marriage's quality. People who say their marriage is satisfying - who find themselves still in love with their partner - rarely report being unhappy, discontented with life, or depressed. And, most married people do declare their marriages happy ones. (pg. 156)

...male medical students in a study by UCLA's Robert Coombs survived medical school with less stress and anxiety if married. (pg. 157)

Marriage offers the roles of spouse and parent, which can provide additional sources of self-esteem. (ibid)

Now from Chillin's emotive side. Marriage is quite simply beautiful. It is a body and soul union of man and woman. We both believe God created it, so there can be no denying for us that it is meant to be a source of blessing and happiness. Marriage is a tremendously significant way of incarnating Christ's love and putting it in action. I want to get married for the chance to share love in a very unique way, for the challenges and responsibilities it creates, and for the growth that it will bring to me. I don't see marriage as destruction of independence but as liberation to love and serve.

But I'm not saying that following the single lifestyle is an "inferior" choice. Some people are quite adept at being single, and I believe some are called by God to be. But it is apparent that most people haven't been designed this way. To the one who goes that way, however, there are still plenty of avenues for growth, love, and blessing. We find that God is all-sufficient no matter what, right? I need God, not a woman. I just want one really, really bad. :yipee: hehehe.

Seeton is sitting here in my room while I work on this, and so he says: "What's so great about being married? It's a wonderful lifestyle. Most people in the world find it very meaningful and fulfilling...and wonderful."

Simply put, what is so great about marriage is the fact that God has meant for it to be great. But it calls for a lot of work and shouldering of responsibility to guard oneself and keep pure. Also, it can't work if one makes a bad choice for a partner. Good books to consider are Am I the One? and, so I hear, Choosing God's Best. I know that The Sexual Man is not technically for you, but perusing through it will help you better understand the struggles that men go through. I suppose Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus will facilitate better understanding as well.

Whatever choice you make, make it because it's what you want and what's good for you, not because you find it "superior". Either way, you still rock! Yeah baby yeah! See ya at school, fool (what what).

[bar Jonah]

What's so great about marriage, anyway?

I don't know, but I can hardly wait to find out!

:love:

:teeth:

[Aravis]

Today @ 01:21 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=173191#post173191)
ChrisChillin:

Hey Aravis, let's go dress up as fantasy characters again! Maybe in the next quest, we can figure out some spells for you to use against white ninjas on EV boardwalks (nyuk nyuk nyuk).



I did perform a necromancy spell so that we could interrogate him after Rob shot him.

For those who are confused, check out this photo, and proceed to be even more confused:

http://www.geocities.com/randomitiousness/league_of_ordinary_middle_men.jpg

Either way, you still rock! Yeah baby yeah! See ya at school, fool (what what).

Yeah, I am quite awesome, aren't I?
:lol:

What a nice reply, Chillin! It's really good to read something like that from someone who knows me. Of course, since you do know me in real life (and understand me a bit better than most) I thought you might have some more personal comments on why you think I currently feel this way and do some amateur psychoanalysis. That would have been really fun.

I must admit that I entered this thread predisposed to disagree with whatever you had to say, Chris. (That only applies to Chris, everyone, since he's a good friend of mine--though I realize that it reflects rather badly on my character.) It's a credit to how excellent your post was that I didn't find anything at all that I disagreed with. I'm practically convinced already...

[David O]

06-21-2003 @ 06:38 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=129312#post129312)
Patroclus:

First of all, you are taking Paul's words out of their historical context. Paul believed that Christ was coming back to judge the world yesterday. The idea, it seems, for Paul is that Christian service is so urgent, that all other endeavors were hinderances.

?


This is nuts. Jesus spoke through Paul. The Holy Spirit gave him utterance, you are destroying the scripture.

[themuzicman]

My wife told someone the other day that we'd been happily married for 13 years, now.

I was shocked and told her that we got married almost 19 years ago.

She said, "You didn't hear me. I said we'd been HAPPILY married for 13 years...."

Michael

[David O]

Too bad she didn't learn to enjoy it for so long. Also, its too bad she feels free to disrespect you that way.

[themuzicman]

No disrespect at all.

It's a fact of life that not every year of marriage is a happy one. This present year isn't shaping up all to well, either. My wife has had 3 surguries and one other outpatient procedure as well, and she's fighting depression. All that puts a lot of stress on everyone.

Fortunately, happiness doesn't define success.

Michael

[David O]

I'm impressed with your committment to your marriage. It's wonderful, and definitely a success because you were obedient to God. Your wife's depression comes from self-focus, or morbid introspection. I spent a lot of years doing it. Depressed people are extremely oppressive. You can draw her out of it. You have the position of authority over her that requires you to take care of her. Make her focus on God when she is tempted to worry. Pray out loud with her even if she doesn't want you to. Don't let her talk you into worrying. We are commanded not to worry. The more she submits to your authority, the more she will overcome the depression. You will not be deceived as easily as she (2Timothy.) If you haven't already, take her to the elders to be prayed for like it says in James. Don't let her point out what she thinks your flaws are to you. It's not her job and it hurts her when you let her do it. Do let your Dad or Pastor, or the Elders point out your flaws to you, it is their job.

[Spokoina]

Whewie, I was reading through the posts and thinking wow, am I the only one who sees what I see?

Gosh, Matthew thanks! Marriage saves you from yourself. Yes!

Interdependence. Relationships outside of ME. Mine. Myself. My independence. My goals. My life. My joy when someone loves ME. Contraints on MY freedom to do what I want. Me My Mine I me me me me.

And God is so totally opposite in what He sees as love. For God so loved the world that HE gave his only begotten son.

I am a mother of four kids. I am a wife. And I was saved by the unconditional, sacrificial, and pure love of the Father seen through his son.

Christ-like love for me, ..we love because first God loved us. I have learned more about the heart of God as a mother of my kids than any single event in my life and that is the honest truth.

Oh how I hate it at times, I will tell you flat out. I really like my independence. I am very well educated, with a masters degree, and my husband and I decided, for the sake of the kids, that I would stay home until they were a bit older. FOR their sakes ..their well being. What we would give to them to start off their lives that God has entrusted us with.

Oh, how I, ME, I hate that sacrifice at times. I could be um...richer. I could be more noticed, more appreciated than what I am. Oh, I could be more freer without my kids and certainly without staying home with them as we agreed. Oh, I would get more sleep, have nicer food than the food my kids eat, and certainly have nicer clothes. I mean really, why ruin perfectly wonderful clothes to cook and to change diapers and clean the house in? Gosh, I look like a housewife, horrors to my looks. And not only that, my God! The weight I gained and have trouble losing from four close together pregnancies, and stretch marks..they ruined my beach appearance. OH GOD! My freedom is not what it could've been. My finances, my looks, all of that is not what I wanted really, before I embarked on this marriage and kid adventure.


So what did I get? Well, I got four gorgeous, loving, loves of my life that reflect my husband and me, our love, to raise, to nuture to love. Those darned kids have pulled out of me a love and a sacrifice and a selflessness to desire their happiness over my own, even at my own expense, that nothing else in this world has ever done, not even to the degree that I love my husband.

And the joy unspeakable when I look at their faces. Ok, they are not perfect, they spill their milk and cause unfair restraints on my coffee time when I have to clean it up. But the joy. Gosh, can I explain it when I look at my kids, even now, and the tears of joy that just kinda come without drama..just come.

And oddly enough, after having my own kids, I cannot bear to hear or see the suffering of kids anywhere in the world without a flood of tears and prayers that someone somehow somewhere can care for them as they are kids, kids just like mine. Or for a parent who loses their kid, or suffering..and I think, what an amazing change in my own heart came from bearing, raising and loving my own kids. And I am far from the perfect love of God, but gosh, who would've thought that it would come out of me like that?

I don't think for one second that this kind of love was in me to begin with. Oh, no. I liked my recognition in the usual ways, and gosh darn, I aint getting it that way now. But gosh, God gave me the love for those kids that is really His, and doesn't want me to cloud it up with my own self, so he can work in the hearts of those wonderful kids of mine. It is the hardest challenge to my SELF that I have ever had to face in my life. When my four kids all had chicken pox...(at that time ages 3 months to five years old) over the Christmas holidays, I thought dying would be easier than the sleepless nights of four sick kids. My SELF found that there was a greater love in me than even all of that. And I am grateful.

And through that, I cry many times, tired, looking like a mom, stretchmarks, confined and bound in what the world thinks is confined and bound, but what I see as my heart and love for them, ...by my kids needs, their schedules, their sicknesses and hurts and fights, their homework, their lives...and think..

Thank you God, for I know you love me even more purely than I love my kids, and I understand now a bit more what you go through to teach, raise and love me into your arms. and Thanks, for even sacrificing your beloved son. I am sure, totally sure, I couldn't have done that with my own son for the sake of people who cared for little else but themselves. I am forever grateful.

Thanks Matthew. Right on. We get freed from our SELVES.

God bless

[Sher]

Hi Spokoina,

My answer ... yes ... and no.

We are to sacrifice ... to die to self ... especially for our children. A mother is the most noble profession that a woman can have ... and we are to make sacrifices for our children. A wife is supposed to be submissive and supportive.

However, there is a big difference between serving ... knowing that is the place where we are to be ... even enjoying and loving that position ... but no one should be a complete doormat ... or neglected and/or abused.

I'm reading a great book by T.D. Jakes entitled "God's Leading Lady: Out of the Shadows and into the Light" ... I do not embrace his theology ... but the book has been very good.

From the Introduction:And at the center of the storm is its power source -- a woman's battle with her self. This may take the form of an inner critic whispering a scathing judgment in her ear that she's not good enough, smart enough, pretty enough, loving enough to be who she should be. It may drape her soul with the unending needs of others, suffocating any and all attempts for her to allow her soul to breathe. It may take the shape of career confusion and relational uncertainty that is paralyzing her, keeping her in a state of indecision. It may be the weariness of the mundane rumbling through the darkness of her heart's depression.

The storm churns and rages her being until a bolt of lightning sears her to her core. With its flickering light, this bolt illuminates that something must change. The electrical energy streaking inside her can short-circuit her life and cause a total blackout.

Or it can be harnessed and used as a source of energy.

Sometimes we women go too far ... and we lose sight of ourselves completely. We allow our spirits to be crushed ... the plan that God has for our life to be completely inhibited ... and our lives to be put completely on hold for servitude ... or because we are not strong enough ... not assertive enough ... to say "enough" ... that we deserve more than this. Some allow baggage and apathy to destroy their lives ... and others wake up to the fact that they have to cherish their lives too ... the only one that God provided.

Don't forget that God has a plan for you in your life and listen to His voice. Where does He want you to be? You will do a disservice to everyone and everything ... including God ... if you totally lose your inner fire.

:shersig:

[Spokoina]

lol ty sher, but dont worry.

I am not lost in my role. My point is, I have discovered something about God and his love that I would have not ever known from the parental end had I not kids.

It is hard to be a mom. And the mundane things I hate are not because I am lost in the role, but because I really think I still own me.

God does, and his plans for me are perfect! I do hear you.

[Sher]

Today @ 11:02 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=180048#post180048)
Spokoina:

It is hard to be a mom.

I so hear you ... but the rewards are a hundred-fold. I'd never have traded that for anything in the world.

And the mundane things I hate are not because I am lost in the role, but because I really think I still own me.

Mundane is hard ... but necessary. I'm glad you haven't lost yourself though :smile: It's a hard road back when you do.

God bless
Sher

[David O]

1 Peter 3
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

[Aravis]

1 Peter 3
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Now, David, I consider those verses guidelines for marriage rather than suggestions that it's a better lifestyle than singlehood, though, because of the responses in this thread, I definitely can see how can be for most people. I certainly haven't figured out that whole "submission" thing and how it would relate to my potential marriage, but I trust that God would guide me in the correct way to relate to my husband.

[David O]

Consider this;

17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

[Aravis]

Spokoina, thank you for your lovely response. I found that incredibly moving and encouraging. I just wanted you to know that your words were definitely being read.

Did you like children before you became a mom?

I think it's really important that you say what you have now is not what you thought you wanted, and that you are far more joyful in it than you would have expected. It's easy to forget sometimes that God's plans for our lives are infinitely better than our own.

[Spokoina]

lol ty, well as far as liking kids before.., and I dont usually talk about my personal life, but this I think was so relevant to me.

I had my first kid and age 35 and my last at almost 40. And I loved my life before. I was free, travelled the world, lived in Russia, travelled the states, had jobs, got educated. Looked good for my age too, no one knew I was 35.

I was married, but no kids. They would cramp my style, so I thought.

Then I had my first. And my whole idea of what really gave me value and joy changed, as did my husband's. I remember every detail of my pregnancy, and the look in detail on my husband's face when he held his son. And it makes every clean toilet and every shirt stained with spit up and every night I didn't sleep the most highly paid moments in my life. And yes, it is work. But worth it.

You can wait to have kids, or you can have them young and be free at my age to do what "you" want. But to miss kids for this because i liked my life as it was, and I hate stretch marks and encroachments on MY ME I MY freedom.....well, I guess to undertand in my own heart the Heart of God, that just will do whatever for his kids, and yeah sometimes it aint a picnic, but gosh you love them so much...imo..that is what it means to be saved through childbirth..that you get drawn closer to God.

God bless.

[Aravis]

07-10-2003 @ 05:12 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=145905#post145905)
automatthew:

From experience, I would say that this is a form of despair.

I was fortunate in realizing the destructiveness of this desire for independence above all else before it could ruin me. That realization was directly responsible for my choice to give up my demands of independence and force myself back into social embeddedness and entangling dependencies (both mine and others'). That choice led more or less directly to meeting the woman I courted and married.

My answer to your initial question is this:

Marriage saves you from yourself.


Matthew

Would you mind writing more about this? This really struck me; it helps a lot that you understand.

Also, in a completely unrelated note, I think one of my issues is that I don't want to be related to in the same way that a lot of men seem to relate to their wives, as a lovely, kind inferior. It seems that many men, even smart men, aren't particularly interested in marrying a smart woman. They are interested in traditional women. (Granted, my geographic location in the South at a Christian college definitely colors my perception on what men typically want. Also, I'm only referring to Christian men, but I feel like that goes without saying.)

I don't have a problem with traditional roles (such as the woman as the more emotional of the two, etc.), but I couldn't fit them even if I wanted to. I'm not particularly good at relating to people on an emotional level. I'm not very soft or kind. I'm not naturally gifted with compassion--it's something I have to rely on God instill in me. I don't know if God has created me like that for a reason, or if these are flaws that he wants to change. I think, in a lot of ways, they are simply natural weaknesses that correspond with my strengths, and force me to rely on him. Also, they are perhaps the very weaknesses that marriage would help me to overcome. I know my close friendships have certainly helped. (Special thanks to ChrisChillin and Seeton, two of my best brothers!) I'm probably being too stereotypical of the male sex, which is ironic, since I freely acknowledge that I don't fit the female stereotype. However, I have been in a relationship with a guy who was much more emotionally-driven than I am, and that created a lot of problems. It almost seems that the man should be the more emotionally-grounded of the two, but I might be quite mistaken in my understanding here.

After a lot of rambling, I would want my husband to relate to me in the same way that he relates to his closest friends, but more so. I really loved what Jaltus said:


Marriage is what happens when you decide you want to be closer to your best friend who happens to be of the opposite sex.

That's pretty much my ideal.

Thanks very much, everyone! I've discussed this with my parents a lot, but they have more of a traditional relationship--that is, my father is significantly more intelligent in academic areas than my mother, and she helps him to be more expressive of his feelings. They complement each other well; it's a very good marriage. But as I am more like my father than my mother, I could never be in that sort of marriage. Actually, my father has been telling my mother for years that he doubts I'll ever get married. I was rather insulted when I first heard it. He understands me well; now that I'm older, I feel like he understood me better than I understood myself at that time. But we are still very different, so he may be wrong.

[Aravis]

Spokoina, the fact that you had the things that I think I want right now and did enjoy them, but less than what you have now means a lot! I don't think, "Yeah, well, she likes it, but she's entirely different from me." I can see that you aren't.

Also, I liked your advice about waiting and having "freedom" early, or having them early and being "free" later... I guess, obviously, there are different stages in life, and children do grow up. You've given me a lot to think about.

[Bartholomew]

08-12-2003 @ 06:27 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=180881#post180881)
Aravis:I don't want to be related to in the same way that a lot of men seem to relate to their wives, as a lovely, kind inferior.

Hi Aravis,

I believe that there is a part in some men that wishes to be the "superior" person in the marriage. I see it with my father as he relates to my mother, and I see the tendencies toward such actions (although I am far from marriage at this point) in myself. To find a man who will not treat you as an "inferior" (however that is to be defined), I recommend looking for someone without a large or fragile ego. Such people are usually threatened by those who are "superior" to them, their wives included, and treat them as inferior, or with contempt.

Find a humble man, and I believe you will be able to avoid the said negative relation potential.

~Matt

[David O]

I recommend submitting to your husband as the New Testament commands. I also recommend that men stop making their wives do their job for them and pretending that it is in the name of equality. Women are the weaker vessel. Men are the image of God, women are the image of man. There is a proper order clearly commanded in the Bible. Keep it.

[Aravis]

Today @ 09:52 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=185888#post185888)
David O:

I recommend submitting to your husband as the New Testament commands.


What, in your opinion, does this entail?

Women are the weaker vessel.

Weaker in what way? Physically? Mentally? Spiritually? All of the above?

[David O]

The same way the church submits to Christ.

The same way slaves are supposed to submit to their masters and children are to submit to their parents. All authority is established of God. Even the ones we don't like. Even kings who put you in a Lion's den, or a firey furnace.

Weaker in whatever way the Bible meant it. I believe Spiritually, Mentally and Physically weaker to be the case. The Bible gives a great example of the first two in Genesis and it is referred to for that reason by Paul. The man was not deceived, the woman was. This is given by the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul, as the reason for His instructions for women. Physically weaker is an easy one to see.

[Aravis]

Today @ 03:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=186564#post186564)
David O:

The same way the church submits to Christ.

The same way slaves are supposed to submit to their masters and children are to submit to their parents. All authority is established of God. Even the ones we don't like. Even kings who put you in a Lion's den, or a firey furnace.


I'm afraid I still don't understand what you mean by this. Could you please explain using specifics rather than examples? I know what the Bible says; I'd like to know how you interpret it.

Weaker in whatever way the Bible meant it. I believe Spiritually, Mentally and Physically weaker to be the case. The Bible gives a great example of the first two in Genesis and it is referred to for that reason by Paul. The man was not deceived, the woman was. This is given by the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul, as the reason for His instructions for women. Physically weaker is an easy one to see.

What evidence, specifically, can you give for men being more intelligent than women? My understanding of the statistics is that men and women have the same average IQ, though there are more men on either end of the scale. In any case, it is certainly not true that all men are more intelligent than I am, and it is by no means certain that if I were to marry, this man would be more intelligent than I am (at least not in every way--I believe there are many kinds of intelligence). I'm sure this sounds like I am incredibly full of myself and have an overblown opinion of my own intelligence, but I don't really think this is the case. I am simply trying to be realistic about the statistics.

[Sher]

Today @ 04:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=186564#post186564)
David O:

Weaker in whatever way the Bible meant it. I believe Spiritually, Mentally and Physically weaker to be the case. The Bible gives a great example of the first two in Genesis and it is referred to for that reason by Paul. The man was not deceived, the woman was. This is given by the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul, as the reason for His instructions for women. Physically weaker is an easy one to see.

Of course that makes an argument for the man being *willfully* disobedient ... instead of deceived :wink:

Instead of weaker ... how about we use different? We are all equal in God's eyes ... but we were definitely designed for different roles.

I have a big problem with the feminist movement. I think they have inhibited women for many years, instead of bolstering them as they may have intended. Yes, women are in the workforce, and yes, we should be paid equally for equal positions of employment. However, this movement has put undue pressure on families.

Many women now feel as if they must work outside the home, society has moved to necessitate two-income households, and women are often made to feel inferior if they are "only" homemakers and mothers.

This is pathetic, really, and not at all what I believe God intended for His children. I do not envision that we were designed to ship our children off to virtual strangers for hours upon hours out of the day, to be so far removed from their upbringing and proper education.

We allow the secular world to practically raise our children for us, then we shake our heads in bewilderment, wondering how the world got this bad.

:shersig:

[Socrates]

Today @ 07:23 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=186535#post186535)
Aravis:

David O:

I recommend submitting to your husband as the New Testament commands.

What, in your opinion, does this entail?

That the husband is first among equals. The fact that he should love his wife sacrificially as Christ loved the church should stop him treating his wife as a doormat and not considering her feelings for any decisions. That's why the biblical view is properly called complementarianism not authoritarianism. But if after proper discussion about a decision they can't agree, then the husband must make the casting vote.

[Sher]

Today @ 08:28 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=186923#post186923)
Socrates:

That the husband is first among equals. The fact that he should love his wife sacrificially as Christ loved the church should stop him treating his wife as a doormat and not considering her feelings for any decisions. That's why the biblical view is properly called complementarianism not authoritarianism. But if after proper discussion about a decision they can't agree, then the husband must make the casting vote.

Amen! :thumb:

:shersig:

[David O]

Not equals. The word that the Bible uses is "WEAKER." That does not mean equal. Our society is so feminized that you can't really see much difference between men and women. The Old Testament heroes sure did. The Holy Spirit does. Men should look out for women as the WEAKER vessel, not worship them and make them do the men's work. The Bible is not unclear. Adam was not decieved, both wilfully disobeted. Adam was told by God, "because you listened to the woman," in God's rebuke of him. There is a clear hierarchy in the Bible. Even Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. He did only what He saw the Father doing. He learned obedience from a fallen earthly Dad, too. All authority is established of God. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

[Sher]

Today @ 09:56 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=186950#post186950)
David O:

Not equals. The word that the Bible uses is "WEAKER." That does not mean equal.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
This doesn't mean that the man isn't to be the spiritual leader in the household ... but that both are equal under God.

You are slightly twisting 1 Pet 3:7 here to mean inferior ... and that isn't the proper way of looking at it.

Our society is so feminized that you can't really see much difference between men and women. The Old Testament heroes sure did. The Holy Spirit does. Men should look out for women as the WEAKER vessel, not worship them and make them do the men's work. The Bible is not unclear.

And you are simply reiterating what I said in my post above. I do definitely believe that there are different gifts and jobs for men and women ... we are designed differently ... and should be thankful for such differences. However, your legalistic approach to this topic seems to knock women into an inferior ... less important ... role. And that is where I highly object. If not for a woman, you would not be here. Women are every bit as important under God as men ... we just have different roles to fulfill.

Adam was not decieved, both wilfully disobeted. Adam was told by God, "because you listened to the woman," in God's rebuke of him. There is a clear hierarchy in the Bible. Even Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. He did only what He saw the Father doing. He learned obedience from a fallen earthly Dad, too. All authority is established of God. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

Yes, yes ... you are starting to tirelessly repeat yourself, David. No one, that I have seen here, has disputed hierarchy. That is most important in a marriage ... and in general life as well. Without hierarchy, with the husband as the spiritual and family leader, the marriage will fall to anarchy ... and the children will not be taught what is Biblically proper by example.

However, again, you are taking it to an unnecessary ... and I dare say unbiblical ... extreme with legalist additions to the Scriptures ... trying to make women inferior. I'm so sorry for what happened in your life, but please don't let your anger at your ex-wife color your understanding of how Scripture is clearly written.

:shersig:

[Spokoina]

women and men. I wouldn't trade being me, a woman for anything in the world.

A wise man once said to me, Donna, you don't have to worry about what a Godly woman is like in the ways you are talking about. A woman is a woman anyways. Your mind, soul, heart, and body is what God gave you, a woman.

Rather, you have to seek what God wants you to be to the fullest ..and that starts in the purity and quality of your love, not your soul, mind or body, but your heart. That makes the woman you are Godly.

You cannot even begin to imagine what a godly woman is. You are just a woman. Be Godly, and you will automatically have both.

Likewise, with men, I am sure.

And as a side note, the scripture is clear: Men should love their wives like Christ loved the church. And if men would realize how Christ loved them, and how he laid down his life for them, very few christian men would ever have to worry about wooing a woman to follow him as head of the household. .....

At least not here. I melt when Christ comes out of my husband. :)


Seems like it is a reciprocal horizontal relationship, and not one of a upper and lower. hmmmm..::::: Look at these:

1Co 7:3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
1Co 7:4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
1Co 7:5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. ......1Co 7:16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?
1Co 7:17 Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And so I direct in all the churches.

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

1Co 11:11 However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.
1Co 11:12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
Eph 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
Eph 5:27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
Eph 5:28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;
Eph 5:29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,
Eph 5:30 because we are members of His body.
Eph 5:31 FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.

Eph 5:33 Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.


Col 3:18 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them.
Col 3:20 Children, be obedient to your parents in all things, for this is well-pleasing to the Lord.
Col 3:21 Fathers, do not exasperate your children, so that they will not lose heart.

1Pe 3:7 You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.






>>>>one of my favorite realizations in having children:


Joh 16:21 "Whenever a woman is in labor she has pain, because her hour has come; but when she gives birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy that a child has been born into the world.
Joh 16:22 "Therefore you too have grief now; but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice, and no one will take your joy away from you.

Ah yes, I remember the pain is forgotten seeing the face of your baby...

[Aravis]

Today @ 07:28 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=186923#post186923)
Socrates:



What, in your opinion, does this entail?

That the husband is first among equals. The fact that he should love his wife sacrificially as Christ loved the church should stop him treating his wife as a doormat and not considering her feelings for any decisions. That's why the biblical view is properly called complementarianism not authoritarianism. But if after proper discussion about a decision they can't agree, then the husband must make the casting vote.

Thank you, Socrates. This is how I view it. (not that my opinion matters; what is is, regardless of how I want to view it). Also, I wouldn't marry a man whose leadership I didn't trust. :) I am fortunate to have a good example of this in my mother.

[Sher]

Spokoina ... you are right on with the Scripture verses! Good job!

Sher

[Epoetker]

I think AArchon just provided me with some pretty good misconeptionalisms about marraige to clear up.

Do NOT get married 'because god wants you to'. That's just not good enough, sorry. I've known many a good Christian end up in divorce because they felt it was their biblical duty to get married to the person next to them in the pew.

But even if God did want them to get married, it was their choice to marry the person next to them in the pew. Sheesh-no deliberation, no experimentation, no...advisers?

Do NOT get married because of any outside influences. Nobody else, no pastors, no ministers, nobody knows what will make YOU happy. Only you know that. Use your brain, listen to yourself.

*AArchon has just demolished the entire practice of psychology, with a good bit of the observational component of science thrown in.*

Hint-maybe you have some issues with trusting people. Not everybody desires only that which benefits or affirms themselves. Of course, if you hold this as a first principle, it might create some issues with relating to God in a meaningful way...

Do NOT feel like you have to marry at all. If you change your mind later and want to settle down with one person, then fine. Take your time, and don't rush it man. Women are like wine. =) Trust me on this. And before you're 30, you'll have a drastically different outlook on most things anyway.

While the 'wine' analogy may hold with sexual technique, it most certainly does not hold with childbearing/raising capacity, which follows rather more...evolutionary pathways. Recall that you are talking to people for whom expanding the heights of their sexual experience is not their greatest goal in life.

(In my view, the sexiest thing is a sense of shared purpose.)

Finally, do not feel like you have to get married just so you have a license to have sex. It's fine if you're the kind of person who wants to be a virgin and all and save all that awkwardness for your wedding night, but don't rush it.

Personal, social, and scientific experience confirms that the primary male way to make and keep up the physical, mental, and spiritual desire for some female is having sex with her early and often. Splitting the brain's storehouse of desires among a whole buncha women might be nice for those seeking instant sexual gratification, but it means that something other than your physical drives is going to have to keep the marraige together (politics, duty, money, and all the other nasty things that make life drudgery, but are the only ways to keep up appearances if you're not willing to follow Higher Law.)

[ChrisChillin]

What a pretty darn active thread this has become..

Aravis:
It seems that many men, even smart men, aren't particularly interested in marrying a smart woman. They are interested in traditional women.

Hmm....well, I guess that depends on what you mean by "smart" and "traditional", now doesn't it? I also have to wonder if part of the context of this statement would be your awareness of my last dating relationship, because it could have been interpreted as a smart guy wanting a traditional girl. So I'm curious if you saw it as such. Granted, she is very traditional, and feels it would be her duty as wife to take care of whomever she marries, clean house, cook, be all domestic, etc. But her traditionalism was not a quality that drew me to her and her passivity eventually began to annoy me. I do enjoy being in the company of more liberated, empowered women.

Also, as you say in a post further down, there are different kinds of intelligence, and different measures to take into account. That ex-girlfriend may have been a Smith finalist at our school and may have a 4.0, but she is neither a critical or a deep thinker. She likes to avoid reality, keep from talking about serious stuff, and never discusses issues like we do. To you and I, that isn't very "smart". But by the school's standards of measurements, she is "smart" in her studies and in the major of her choice. So what does smart mean to you and how smart does a guy need to be in that way to enter your serious consideration? Do his ACT or SAT scores have to match up? I guess you can't help but wonder about those, but there will be no better measure for a future relationship then the friendship you cultivate with a guy first.

Taking myself for an example, I would desire for my wife to at least be reasonably smart in the sense that she enjoys deep conversations and is open to learn and think about things differently. She doesn't need to have the same book-smarts that I do. If I may change around the terminology, I would say that wisdom is more important to me than knowledge. Knowledge would be an added bonus to me, but it would be less important as a consideration. After all, how many girls out there are really interested in biblical scholarship and read people like Wright, Brown, Frye, Brueggemann, etc? Shall I turn one away because she isn't interested in textual criticism? If your dad is more intelligent in your mom in academic areas, that may be because that has been his interest/vocation while her interests have been elsewhere. That wouldn't make her "less intelligent", just different.

I'm probably being too stereotypical of the male sex

Probably :poke: hehe.

It almost seems that the man should be the more emotionally-grounded of the two, but I might be quite mistaken in my understanding here.

Well, I think it's very unhealthy for guys to pretend like they have no feelings or that their emotions are not sensitive.


I'm sure this sounds like I am incredibly full of myself and have an overblown opinion of my own intelligence..

If you weren't trying to compete with me all the time, there'd be no overblown... :lol: Just kidding!

Love ya, Aravis!

- Chris

[Aravis]

Today @ 07:42 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=188125#post188125)
ChrisChillin:

What a pretty darn active thread this has become..



Hmm....well, I guess that depends on what you mean by "smart" and "traditional", now doesn't it? I also have to wonder if part of the context of this statement would be your awareness of my last dating relationship, because it could have been interpreted as a smart guy wanting a traditional girl. So I'm curious if you saw it as such. Granted, she is very traditional, and feels it would be her duty as wife to take care of whomever she marries, clean house, cook, be all domestic, etc. But her traditionalism was not a quality that drew me to her and her passivity eventually began to annoy me. I do enjoy being in the company of more liberated, empowered women.

That does make me feel a lot better. Yes, that was definitely part of the context; obviously, I don't know dozens of extremely intelligent guys (such as yourself), so you are a very large part of my limited experience. But you knew that. In fact, I think I could probably trace my annoyance over my perception of this particular male tendency to a conversation we had a few months ago, when you were in the middle of this relationship. It means very, very much that you seem to have "come around" to my way of thinking. Thanks very much.

Also, as you say in a post further down, there are different kinds of intelligence, and different measures to take into account. That ex-girlfriend may have been a Smith finalist at our school and may have a 4.0, but she is neither a critical or a deep thinker. She likes to avoid reality, keep from talking about serious stuff, and never discusses issues like we do. To you and I, that isn't very "smart". But by the school's standards of measurements, she is "smart" in her studies and in the major of her choice. So what does smart mean to you and how smart does a guy need to be in that way to enter your serious consideration? Do his ACT or SAT scores have to match up? I guess you can't help but wonder about those, but there will be no better measure for a future relationship then the friendship you cultivate with a guy first.

I thought I had made that clear in our many past conversations on this subject. :lol: No, I can understand where a little of my Chris-directed competitive banter might have led you to the impression that I think standardized test scores mean something. I don't. "Smart" means the same to me as it does to you, I believe; I might put more weight on artistic sensibility--then again, I might not. And to clarify for the rest of the audience, "smart" is, as Chris said, the ability to think critically and creatively. I absolutely wouldn't require ridiculous standardized test scores to match up. But again, I agree, agree, agree with Chillin.

Taking myself for an example, I would desire for my wife to at least be reasonably smart in the sense that she enjoys deep conversations and is open to learn and think about things differently. She doesn't need to have the same book-smarts that I do. If I may change around the terminology, I would say that wisdom is more important to me than knowledge.

Most definitely. I don't need to be in a relationship with another immature smart person like myself. :grin: Wisdom, I believe, is the key factor in this. I can definitely see myself with someone who is less "smart" than I am, but wiser. Besides which, it's a very attractive quality.

Knowledge would be an added bonus to me, but it would be less important as a consideration.

Oh, definitely. On the other hand, I would be annoyed by anyone who is pleased by his lack of knowledge and has no interest in gaining more.

After all, how many girls out there are really interested in biblical scholarship and read people like Wright, Brown, Frye, Brueggemann, etc?

And how many guys out there are really interested in literary criticism or love studying the Nuremberg Trials? I think total similarity in academic interests would be rather boring. It would be more interesting to strive to mutually respect each other's interests, with hopefully a bit (but not too much to make it boring) of common ground and understanding. For instance, I might be compatible with someone who is more science-oriented, as long as he isn't disdainful of the humanities. After all, there's a science nerd buried beneath those layers of Dostoevsky-loving, Speer-studying freakishness. I don't mind being around someone who brings that out.

Shall I turn one away because she isn't interested in textual criticism?

Yes... :teeth: I mean, NO! Any more than she, whoever she might be, should turn you away because you aren't interested in atonal music, or French impressionist painters, or Russian translations of Faulkner, or whatever. (Not to say you aren't interested in those things... I'm just not aware of it.)

If your dad is more intelligent in your mom in academic areas, that may be because that has been his interest/vocation while her interests have been elsewhere. That wouldn't make her "less intelligent", just different.

Well, you could say that about everyone, couldn't you? "That wouldn't make Pippin less intelligent than Gandalf, just different..."

No, kidding, kidding, I see your point, actually. My parents have a good marriage because their strengths complement each other. My mom is more verbally adept and very musically talented, both of which are forms of "intelligence." My dad is more logical and mathematical.

Probably :poke: hehe.

Ow.

Well, I think it's very unhealthy for guys to pretend like they have no feelings or that their emotions are not sensitive.

Well, yeah. That's very unhealthy for anybody. However, it was very stressful for me to have to attempt to answer frequent questions like, "What, emotionally, are you getting from this relationship?" or "And how does that make you feel?" I'm not denying that I have feelings; however, I often prefer to leave them unverbalized. It's very uncomfortable. In fact, the frustration of attempting to express what is ethereal and vague in something so definite as words led to one clear emotion: anger. Not anger at anyone in particular, but excess frustration at being forced to do something so unnatural for something that I could not see as a necessity. And that made me want to cry. And dangit, I hate to cry in front of people. I suppose that should have told me something right there; one of my "requirements" for a man is "someone I feel comfortable crying with."

If you weren't trying to compete with me all the time, there'd be no overblown... :lol: Just kidding!

I only try to compete with you all the time because you are good competition and understand the concept of friendly competition for the mutual encouragement of excellence--or just a nice little adrenaline rush. At least, you seem to. Twister King.

Love ya, Aravis!

- Chris

Love you, too! And will miss being told to "Go and sin no more" by you this semester... However, I'll see you Monday and Tuesday--until then, distance hugs!

--Evie, who apologizes for the ridiculous number of inside jokes in this post. She recognizes that inside jokes are bad manners, but likes them anyway.

[Spokoina]

OHHHHHH gosh Aravis..tell me..

Do you like Dostoevsky? LOL I found him totally fascinating and maddening. lol

I wrote my master's thesis at the seminary on Dostoevsky's Karamazov and God's grace...

hehe talk about many who would be totally bored. LOL

[David O]

We are not equals. The servant is not greater than the master. Jesus and the church are not equals. Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. In heaven, men will give an account of how they ran their families, women will give an account of how they obeyed their husbands. There is no exception to the rule that Jesus mentioned about the lesser comes from the greater. My Dad is greater than me. I am greater than my son. We are not equals.

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 07:51 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=188903#post188903)
David O:

We are not equals. The servant is not greater than the master. Jesus and the church are not equals. Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. In heaven, men will give an account of how they ran their families, women will give an account of how they obeyed their husbands. There is no exception to the rule that Jesus mentioned about the lesser comes from the greater. My Dad is greater than me. I am greater than my son. We are not equals.
David, it's true that men and women have different roles in relation to each other, in a church and in a marriage.

But need I remind you that as fellow Christians in the Body of Christ, there is "neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus?" (Galatians 3:28)

While I was in the military, I was a Petty Officer Second Class. Was I equal with a Captain? Yes AND no. In the context of military service, we were not equal relationally. But as citizens of the United States, we were equal.

This is a very accurate analogy for Christians in regards to what Paul teaches us about men and women. In one context, we're not equal. But in another context -- as fellow Christians and children of God -- we most certainly are equal.

[David O]

I agree that we are equal in our need for salvation and that whatever way the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul meant in saying that we are not male or female is true. Those verses sound like an indication of some form of equality. You are one of the few people in here who has used the word "context" in a way that seems appropriate to me. Your use doesn't destroy the scripture.

[Sher]

Today @ 11:05 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=188957#post188957)
David O:

Those verses sound like an indication of some form of equality.

:smack: Too bad you didn't listen to me when I said the very same thing (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=186959#post186959) two days ago.

Honestly, David O, I believe you are a bit of a misogynist. Is it really that hard for you to understand the words of a woman?

:shersig:

[David O]

"You are slightly twisting 1 Pet 3:7 here to mean inferior ... "

This is not the same as what that gentleman said. I'll accept your accusation of me as a misogynist. I would accuse you of being rebellious, but that is your husband's job. If you will learn anything let it be from your husband at home. I will not be taught by a woman, as Paul commanded me.

[Sher]

Today @ 11:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=188999#post188999)
David O:

This is not the same as what that gentleman said.

Not exactly, but it is the same basic principle.

I'll accept your accusation of me as a misogynist. I would accuse you of being rebellious,

And you would be partially correct in this accusation ... but it is not rebellion so much as a strong mind that God gifted me with ... and the will to use it for something other than filling the space where my hat rests.

but that is your husband's job.

Yes ... it should have been ... but that is neither here nor there.

If you will learn anything let it be from your husband at home.

I won't speak of my personal life with you. It is not any of your business.

I will not be taught by a woman, as Paul commanded me.

What is so sad, David, is that your legalistic attitude is causing you to miss out on the fact that this is a conversation ... not a Sunday school class. But your loss ...

:shersig:

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 09:05 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=188957#post188957)
David O:
I agree that we are equal in our need for salvation and that whatever way the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul meant in saying that we are not male or female is true.
Sounds nice, Dave-o, but that's not what Paul said.

He didn't say that we were equal when we were unbelievers, as you just stated. (ie. in our need for salvation.) He said this in the context of already having gained that salvation, now being in Christ. AFTER we become a new creation in Him.

How on earth can there be no distinction between male and female in Christ... if we're not in Christ? :hrm:

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 09:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=188999#post188999)
David O:
"You are slightly twisting 1 Pet 3:7 here to mean inferior ... "

This is not the same as what that gentleman said. I'll accept your accusation of me as a misogynist. I would accuse you of being rebellious, but that is your husband's job. If you will learn anything let it be from your husband at home. I will not be taught by a woman, as Paul commanded me.
Again, David, I must remind you that while women don't fill that role in a church or in their relationship with their husband... Sher has every right to correct you as a fellow Christian. She's not teaching men in a church. And you are not her husband. She's not any kind of official authority over you. But fellow Christians ARE most certainly called to correct and rebuke each other. And outside of the above roles, you and Sher certainly are equal. Neither male nor female, simply one in Christ.

I agree with Sher -- your attitude is not biblical; it's mysoginistic.

[David O]

Is the church equal to Jesus?

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 09:51 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=189018#post189018)
David O:
Is the church equal to Jesus?
He is our head. We are His body. He leads us. But we are also identified with Christ.

Obviously He is God and we are not. We don't literally become part of God. But in some ways, we are metaphorically identified as being His Body, and as no longer living but Christ lives in and through us, therefore being synonymous with Him in a sense.

So the answer to your question is not a simple one.

Not to mention that men and women are not Gods.

[David O]

Jesus said the we are little gods. Jesus is vastly superior to the church. The answer is a simple one, unless you are trying to afford room for rebellion. Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. The church should not grasp equality with Jesus. The wife should not grasp equality with the husband. God is to Jesus (His son), as Jesus is to the church (His bride), as the husband is to the wife (his bride.) None of this requires equality, or even affords it.

[Sher]

Today @ 11:41 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=189011#post189011)
RightIdea:


Again, David, I must remind you that while women don't fill that role in a church or in their relationship with their husband... Sher has every right to correct you as a fellow Christian. She's not teaching men in a church. And you are not her husband. She's not any kind of official authority over you. But fellow Christians ARE most certainly called to correct and rebuke each other. And outside of the above roles, you and Sher certainly are equal. Neither male nor female, simply one in Christ.

I agree with Sher -- your attitude is not biblical; it's mysoginistic.

Thanks for backing me up, RI ... have some pearls :sher:

... but it appears we are both just doing this ~~> :argh: :argh:

~Sher

[David O]

Sometimes the Stone is a rock of offense. People get broken on it.

[Sher]

Today @ 02:47 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=189130#post189130)
David O:

Sometimes the Stone is a rock of offense. People get broken on it.

And sometimes the stone is a rock of defense ... where someone is so hardheaded that they are unable to learn the truth.

:shersig:

[Spokoina]

hmm. Is Christ equal to the church. well hmm..consider:

Is Jesus equal to God? one with him? visible manifestation of the invisible God...hmm.

Mat 19:5 and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?Mat 19:6 "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Joh 15:12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.
Joh 15:15 "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Joh 15:20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

Joh 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.


Joh 17:20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Joh 17:22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
Joh 17:23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
Joh 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Yeah, hmm. Kinda sounds like the church is one with Christ. One..as Christ as one with God, one in glory, one in all. NO greater Master over a servant, no superior/inferior because of God's love making the "up master" go down to lift up the servant..one. one one.

Like husband and wife.

Oh God, He is sooo good!

:highfive:

[David O]

Today @ 08:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=189144#post189144)
Spokoina:


Yeah, hmm. Kinda sounds like the church is one with Christ. One..as Christ as one with God, one in glory, one in all. NO greater Master over a servant, no superior/inferior because of God's love making the up master go down to lift up the servant..one. one one.

Like husband and wife.

:highfive:


So Jesus is not greater than the church? The church can command Jesus and He should obey? Or Jesus can be countermanded by the church, but gets to have the deciding vote?

I can be one with Christ and He is still the boss of me. He can still tell me to obey my parents and the authorities that He established (all authority is established of God according to the Bible.) The up Master is still the boss when he stoops down to help the underlings. A father gets to tell his children what to do and when to do it. A master tells his slave what to do and when to do it. God told Jesus what to do and when to do it. Jesus did not see equality as something to be grasped. For some reason you do. You are wrong to do it. The husbands who make their wives act like equals do a severe disservice to them. Those husbands should do their own work.

[Sher]

:smack: :smack: :smack:

Equal, not inferior nor superior.

It doesn't negate that the final authority should rest with the husband, it simply means that they are equal.

:shersig:

[Spokoina]

David wrote:
So Jesus is not greater than the church? The church can command Jesus and He should obey? Or Jesus can be countermanded by the church, but gets to have the deciding vote?

I can be one with Christ and He is still the boss of me.

David, I am just providing you the scripture for what I have said. over and over, by the way. ;)

The source of conflict is the dogged insistence that "greater" and "authority" is commanding inferior underlings to obey. OOPS...

Obedience comes as a result of the greater being greater in the biblical sense of superior, greater and worthy!

Check it out:


Mat 20:26 "It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,
Mat 20:27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave;
Mat 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Mar 10:42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus *said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them.
Mar 10:43 "But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant;
Mar 10:44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.
Mar 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Joh 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

Joh 13:12 So when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you?
Joh 13:13 "You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.
Joh 13:14 "If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15 "For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.
Joh 13:16 "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.
Joh 13:17 "If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them.



OOPS...something to think about. How in the world is the husband going to become one with his wife, and be the head, like Christ, by announcing some superior status, as if he sees that it means his wife has to obey him and start there? Jesus didn't start there. He started knowing that he would give his life for the church. Knowing and doing. And that is the first starting point of authority, of superiority, of greatness, of worthiness to be followed.

Nah, the scripture is clear, that "superior" one becomes superior by going down down down to lift up and die and serve and give your life for...that stimulates obedience by being great and superior at doing what Christ wanted..without you even having to force the issue.

Women melt seeing Christ in their husbands, and will fight tooth and nail, and rightfully so, seeing a husband demand the results of Christ's love without Christ's love being there ...hmm. Like a thief and a robber..all too many men want to steal a woman's faithfulness and obedience while not even trying to be worthy of it...Christ, now He was worthy!

So if you are getting a fight here, especially from the women..perhaps it might be for this reason: demanding the results of a position without focus on being worthy for that position. It happens all the time...and with the same results too.

Imagine, if you were being asked to follow a "false christ", self-centered and proud, and give him your obedience since man must be obedient to God. Same thing, asking a woman to be obedient without any recognition of the husbands source of greatness..his own starting point which is to be great as the bible says.

God is really soooooooooo wise. To be up, you have to go down and lift the down up and therefore life is relational and not linear.

and once the..the relationship...giver, receiving, responder, receiving back.. starts, the beginning and end are one.
God bless.

[Sher]

Today @ 09:22 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=189424#post189424)
Spokoina:

So if you are getting a fight here, especially from the women..perhaps it might be for this reason: demanding the results of a position without focus on being worthy for that position. It happens all the time...and with the same results too.

Exactly Spokoina! :thumb:

Also, take the greatest example of Biblical love, the Song of Solomon. In Song 1:4, the Shulamit states "Draw me after you and let us run together!"

Notice how she revels in him taking the lead ... "draw me after you" ... but then speaks of them moving forward from there as equals ... "and let us run together".

Christian women want ... need ... a spiritual leader ... but we also want and need to be treated as equals as we follow that leadership. These have to go hand-in-hand ... one will absolutely not work without the other.

:shersig:

[LeiLani]

Great post, Spokina! Have some pearls!

[David O]

Jesus is greater than the church. The church is not "equal" to Jesus. Jesus did not grasp equality with God. The man is to the woman as God is to Jesus. God told Moses that he would be as God to Aaron, look it up Exodus 4:16.

[Sher]

/me kicks the stylus :ahem:

[Spokoina]

lol Sher.

David, "great" means that you are the boss and others are ordered by God to follow? Did you really read Jesus' words on greatness that I posted?

Do you not see the discrepancy between Jesus' words on greatness and authority and that you are espousing (no pun intended,..oh all right, just a little one :poke:) ?

and if you are not able to be honest in seeing this, can you explain to me what goes on inside your head that allows you to not consider that view of Jesus' greatness? Are you telling yourself that you know better than Jesus what true greatness entails, and how obedience ought to be evoked from the church/wife/bride? Hmmm.

Did you realize that you can say no to a false perception of Jesus, his greatness and authority, and receive him as he is, and in doing that, you wont have to beat yourself up to obey, but you just really want to because of the gratitude you feel? That David, God is exactly to you as we are asking the husband to be to the wife, and not the Sergeant/Master commanding you and you just say yes as a legal requirement?

...That God is even now, underneath you, serving you, compelling you, lifting you up, even you don't obey and don't listen, laying down his greatness, his power, his authority, his life, even when you trample on him, to reach your own stone heart, oh and mine too? That he asks you to obey as a response to his greatness, ...do you feel what the true Jesus is about that makes him great? I gotta ask you. Sincerely. Jesus is great. and why David, ?

It is freeing really. God is sooooooooooo wise. He knows..he really knows what will bring the lasting response and what joy is about in us and for Him.

God! I wouldn't trade him right now for the world.

[David O]

God is not underneath me. I serve God. He is the boss of me. He is greater than me. I fear Him. I serve Him. I will not question His authority.

[LeiLani]

Hey David, I couldn't help noticing that "I love him" wasn't in that last post. I also can't help noticing that out of all your posts, you haven't referred to obeying him out of love for him.

[Spokoina]

or even more to the point..


Where is there obedience flowing out of the tears of gratitude for the love of God to "me", the disobedient betrayer of the Lord?

I cannot obey God at all, no! I am sinful, willful, fleshly. Not I, but the grace of God given to me, now that pushes me to obey, even now.

I didn't deserve it. Thus I am owned by the heart of the Father.

[David O]

I am owned by God because he bought me.

[Spokoina]

lol David

He bought you? how? with his blood. But hmmm. same blood money that Judas would pay?

Satan put up a bid for you too. He wanted your soul to devour. He didn't have a great enough price.

What is the source of the greatness of the price Jesus paid? And David, sincerely, why is this so hard to just say for ya? lol Resistance I hear, against that heart of God that stimulates obedience is futile! lol

Now I know ya git the point of the posts for sure. lol

:poke:

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.




Aint God just sooooooo good to us?

[LeiLani]

Exactly! I think you are trying to serve God out of a sense of obligation, you used phrases like "I fear him, he is the boss of me." Whereas the attitude he wants is. "God is my Father, and I love him so much I can't bear to hurt him." God is Holy, but I think your attitude towards him forgets that God is also our loving Father.

[abrahams seed]

Hi to everyone wanted to say first how much i really enjoy this forum and the all the open dialogue.

My first question is to David O. You have stated over and over that men and women are not equal which i strongly disagree with in the context you are using it in. But that aside, just out of curiosity in what way do you think a husband/ wife relationship is supposed to function in terms of the authority a husband has over his wife. I do agree that a wife is supposed to be submissive.In what way did Christ win our voluntary submission? Through sacrificially giving himself.I think that is how a christian husband/wife relationship should function, as the husband sacrificially gives of himself his wife will glad to acknowledge him as the leader knowing she can trust him.(I am not married by the way). Although the husband is over the wife in the sense of authority its doesnt mean that hes some kind of autonomous despot, or that the wife can never disagree with her husband, and it certainly doesnt mean that they are inequal.The husband is not better than the wife simply because he has more authoriy than she does.I dont know, maybe I'm wrong but I WANT my future wife to verbalize her disagreements or problems with me, this doesnt neccessitate that she subvert my authority by doing so. I personally have appreciated certain insight that my mom, sister and other female friends that I know have had.

David said
"Jesus did not see equality as something to be grasped. For some reason you do. You are wrong to do it. The husbands who make their wives act like equals do a severe disservice to them. Those husbands should do their own work."

Where are you getting the word "grasped"Philipians 2:5-11 says that Jesus thought it not ROBBERY to be considered equal with God, but made himself of no reputation, maybe Im wrong but that seems to imply an equality with God. In what way are you meaning to "make their wives act like equals", and how is that a disservice since the wives ARE equal except in authority?

[geebob]

The pastor at my current church had an excellent sermon on celebacy, as in permanent celebecy.

Some people have the gift of celebecy and it would be best if they didn't get married as they could devote everything they have to God.

He gave a powerful example of the attraction for celebecy. He spoke of the time when he was a missionary in Siera Leone, a foreign nation invaded and took over the country and they were kicking all the missionaries out. He spoke of how the only thing he could think of at the time was just getting his family out alive, but when he arrived back in the safety of the US, he grieved for the loss of his mission feild where he was doing so much good, and he knew if he wasn't married, he could have stayed only caring for the good that he could continue and not for his own life.

If you have the gift of celebecy with the ability to be content without a spouse, then you should strongly consider keeping it. If some day some fella comes along who gives you those puppy dog eyes and begs you to join him in marriage, think long and hard before giving up what God could give you.

With regard to marriage, I think we've really got to be individuals on this and consider what God gives us.

Now I don't like that Paul says that it is better to be single, because God created them male and female in his image. Marriage reflects God and what he intends for humanity. but we live in a time were it is good for some to forego that life and give all they can to the world for God's sake.

I would much rather think of both marriage and singleness and good but different.

[David O]

Here are some verses on authority. They aren't unclear.

Titus 3
1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

Titus 2
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

1 Timothy 6
1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.


Ephesians 5
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Colossians 3
18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;
23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
1 Thessalonians 5
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1 Timothy 5
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Hebrews 2
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.