Will God Teach Us To Hate In Heaven?

[seer]

To The Calvinists: When the final roll is called and we have certain knowledge of who the non-elect are; Will God then reverse the command to love our neighbor and teach us to now hate those very non-elect neighbors He once commanded us to love? Of course loving our neighbor was a very difficult task, even with the grace of God - so I suppose that learning to hate them will be rather easy - since it very much appeals to our carnal instincts...

[jason]

What sort of a dumb question is this ?

[Kevin Wayne]

I think it's an excellent question... especially if Colossians stays true to form & gives the "final" question for Arminians that he gave on the other website... :wink:

[seer]

What sort of a dumb question is this ?

Well we have been told time and time again on these boards that God really hates the non-elect. Some of which are the very neighbors we are commanded to love here on earth. So God will reverse the command and have us hate them? I mean we want to be like God - correct?

[Thomas2003]

To The Calvinists: When the final roll is called and we have certain knowledge of who the non-elect are; Will God then reverse the command to love our neighbor and teach us to now hate those very non-elect neighbors He once commanded us to love? Of course loving our neighbor was a very difficult task, even with the grace of God - so I suppose that learning to hate them will be rather easy - since it very much appeals to our carnal instincts...


Only black people, sodomites and women Seer. I mean, seriously, how could you make a conclusion from Calvinism that God was anything but a racist white supremecist, sexist homophobe? :tongue:

Just thought I'd save you the trouble for your next post and address it now.
:teeth:

and people in California

Oh, and the French, certainly can't leave them out - but surely you can't find anything wrong with hating the French, can you?

[Ormly]

Titus 3:9 (KJV)
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings .........."

[smaller]

Yes seer. God will make you a God like Himself and then you can create your own people and proceed to burn them alive forever.

Or you can create people and see if some of them can escape your clutches by making some form of affirmative choice and then you will forstall your automatic inclination to burn them alive but you will get to fry most of them ANYWAY and some will turn and then you will love them forever and then you can make them Gods like yourself and start the whole deal all over again.

Perhaps the Universe is already filled and still filling with Eternal Divine Torturers human torturers?

How delightful heaven must be!

[betzerg]

Yes seer. God will make you a God like Himself and then you can create your own people and proceed to burn them alive forever.

Or you can create people and see if some of them can escape your clutches by making some form of affirmative choice and then you will forstall your automatic inclination to burn them alive but you will get to fry most of them ANYWAY and some will turn and then you will love them forever and then you can make them Gods like yourself and start the whole deal all over again.

Perhaps the Universe is already filled and still filling with Eternal Divine Torturers human torturers?

How delightful heaven must be!

It seems to me that you are all missing the point of this thread. It makes perfect sense to ask this question in light of the calvinist theology. If G-d "loves jacob but Esau have I hated"...and this has nothing to do with behavior, heart, or faith...then G-d must arbitrarily hate some...and love others. Which as we all understand is an inconsistency. G-d of the bible is a G-d of justice, mercy and love. His "hatred" of a person has to do with the sinful, selfish, prideful and arrogant people they become (not because HE wills it, but because they have been give FREE WILL).

For G-d to allow us to "hate" without reason....to be unjust, uncaring and unloving of any being created in his image....denies the very premise of scripture.

NO...hating is not our job...ONLY G-d can see the devestation, the disease, the poverty, the human degregation that people involved in evil bring into their world. HE hates this...WHY...because HE is good...and HE loves all of humanity.

Shalom,

BETZER

[smaller]

It seems to me that you are all missing the point of this thread. It makes perfect sense to ask this question in light of the calvinist theology. If G-d "loves jacob but Esau have I hated"...and this has nothing to do with behavior, heart, or faith...then G-d must arbitrarily hate some...and love others.

And I fully agree that God hates some. Esau is a physical example for things that we cannot see. God hates the devil and his messengers, yet He created them for the purpose of directing Divine Hatred to it's proper place, against sin, evil and it's works, and death. God hates these things, YET He has chosen to make us ALL suffer under these things for a time. When He is done with those tools they will be hated into The Lake for a permanent bye bye.

So the observation here is there are other legitimate arguments than only what Calvins or Freewillers put out that I consider to be superior understandings.


Which as we all understand is an inconsistency. G-d of the bible is a G-d of justice, mercy and love. His "hatred" of a person has to do with the sinful, selfish, prideful and arrogant people they become (not because HE wills it, but because they have been give FREE WILL).

The freewill premise is so thin it's not even funny. You cannot say that God is not able to work in your will without your knowledge and you cannot say that the devil and his messengers cannot work in your will without your knowledge and AS SUCH you are not "free." Any common Jew knows that it is God Himself who raised up enemies against Israel. His Own called out ones. How "free" is a raised up enemy?


For G-d to allow us to "hate" without reason....to be unjust, uncaring and unloving of any being created in his image....denies the very premise of scripture.

One of my protests is that you should hate that which is in you before you spread the cry for Divine Justice to other people and bow out for same Divine Justice for yourself.


NO...hating is not our job...ONLY G-d can see the devestation, the disease, the poverty, the human degregation that people involved in evil bring into their world. HE hates this...WHY...because HE is good...and HE loves all of humanity.

Evil didn't just pop up out of nowhere. God says He created all things and that includes evil. (Isaiah 45:7) God does not hate His Own offspring whom all of mankind are (Acts 17:25-30) and God is not going to burn His Own offspring alive forever. It ain't gonna happen because this position does not even exist in the scriptures either by named example or by general statement.


Shalom,

BETZER

If you are purporting to be a Jewish believer I might suggest you return to them with Christ firmly in hand as they are ALL Children of God and they have never believed that God will burn any person alive forever. You'd be better off with them sans eternal human torture AND Christ.

enjoy!

smaller

[betzerg]

It seems to me that you are all missing the point of this thread. It makes perfect sense to ask this question in light of the calvinist theology. If G-d "loves jacob but Esau have I hated"...and this has nothing to do with behavior, heart, or faith...then G-d must arbitrarily hate some...and love others. Which as we all understand is an inconsistency. G-d of the bible is a G-d of justice, mercy and love. His "hatred" of a person has to do with the sinful, selfish, prideful and arrogant people they become (not because HE wills it, but because they have been give FREE WILL).

For G-d to allow us to "hate" without reason....to be unjust, uncaring and unloving of any being created in his image....denies the very premise of scripture.

NO...hating is not our job...ONLY G-d can see the devestation, the disease, the poverty, the human degregation that people involved in evil bring into their world. HE hates this...WHY...because HE is good...and HE loves all of humanity.

Shalom,

BETZER

This is my picture of the world to come...where G-d has designed an order that excludes evil:

A scientist is studying the effects of a certain bacteria that is spread easily and is not curible. It results in death. Knowing this plague is to reach the entire earth he spends years finding a vacination against this disease. And just as press begins announcing it's spread...he offers this vaccination to all who will take it. To his surprise only a few do so. The first to be vaccinated are his children, but it extends to "whosever"...and it is free. He sends out thousands of vaccines....but nothing to compare with the millions who will suffer from it's effects.

Finally....it reaches epidemic porportions. The scientist makes a wise decision to take his lab and make it a fortress. Knowing that after the disease has reached a certain stage, the vaccine has no effect. Fearing for his life and the life of his children...he prepares. Soon hundreds of bacteria ridden men and women are pounding at his door. He looks out with great sadness and.....yes...anger. WHY? He had given everything he had to producing a cure. And now he MUST separate those who are well from those who are sick. It is the day of judgement.

Maybe a poor analogy...but the point is this: G-d offers Torah and faith to all who ask...it is free. G-d has offered His own Son...Messiah...and he was disregarded and killed. That some choose to ignore it is wrong. That some choose to blantly defy G-d...is evil. AS G-d looks at the world..filled with child-molesting, murderer, abortion, a disregard for the very G-d-likeness that we are created to possess...men of greed and selfishness, men who lack even natural affections towards their fellow man,how can He not bring judgement to the world and reward those who believe HIM?

Shalom,

BETZER

[betzerg]

And I fully agree that God hates some. Esau is a physical example for things that we cannot see. God hates the devil and his messengers, yet He created them for the purpose of directing Divine Hatred to it's proper place, against sin, evil and it's works, and death. God hates these things, YET He has chosen to make us ALL suffer under these things for a time. When He is done with those tools they will be hated into The Lake for a permanent bye bye.

So the observation here is there are other legitimate arguments than only what Calvins or Freewillers put out that I consider to be superior understandings.



The freewill premise is so thin it's not even funny. You cannot say that God is not able to work in your will without your knowledge and you cannot say that the devil and his messengers cannot work in your will without your knowledge and AS SUCH you are not "free." Any common Jew knows that it is God Himself who raised up enemies against Israel. His Own called out ones. How "free" is a raised up enemy?



One of my protests is that you should hate that which is in you before you spread the cry for Divine Justice to other people and bow out for same Divine Justice for yourself.



Evil didn't just pop up out of nowhere. God says He created all things and that includes evil. (Isaiah 45:7) God does not hate His Own offspring whom all of mankind are (Acts 17:25-30) and God is not going to burn His Own offspring alive forever. It ain't gonna happen because this position does not even exist in the scriptures either by named example or by general statement.



If you are purporting to be a Jewish believer I might suggest you return to them with Christ firmly in hand as they are ALL Children of God and they have never believed that God will burn any person alive forever. You'd be better off with them sans eternal human torture AND Christ.

enjoy!

smaller

First, I do believe that Christ is G-d's anointed. Secondly, You've made some very good points...but I think you're missing one important point. G-d can use evil as judgement, yes...but he NEVEr violates mans free will. IN other words. G-d has never chosen a man who loves Torah, who loves HIM...who desires what is right...and turned them evil. The nations that came against Israel were Pagan nations that had no fear of G-d and no understanding of righteousness. The word for "hardened" in the hebrew (as in G-d hardened the heart of pharoah)...is actually a words that can mean "strength in the direction alread taken"....Pharoah started the direction.

Also...I do not believe in a place of eternal burning and torture. Especially for those who have never heard or understood who G-d IS. I do believe that every man will be judged according to what he has been given and what he has done with his life. As Paul says, even nature itself teaches certain things about G-d. AT the end of this age, Messiah will come and establish the kingdom of G-d. Those who blantantly "hated" G-d and "righteousness"...will be put in chains ( some sort of "prision"....maybe the same place that the fallen watchers were placed)...and all men will be given a chance to understand G-d. Those who have lived righteously on the earth will be with Messiah in the NEW JERUSALEM...the holy city that descends from the heavens.

I don't really want to go into eschatology here....but in summary...G-d is righteous. There can be NO righteous judgement without FREE WILL. JUdaism teaches it is the greatest gift man has been given...because it is the gift that gives us freedom to LOVE G-d, to LOVE G-d's Torah, and to LOVE HIS MESSIAH....without it there is no justice. Free will in the area of MORAL DECISIONS specifically...in personal moral decisions...so? Is that arminian? NOT suRE>

Shalom,

BETZER

[seer]

Oh, and the French, certainly can't leave them out - but surely you can't find anything wrong with hating the French, can you?

Ok Tom, I'am forced to agree by sheer logic.

[brother vinny]

To The Calvinists: When the final roll is called and we have certain knowledge of who the non-elect are; Will God then reverse the command to love our neighbor and teach us to now hate those very non-elect neighbors He once commanded us to love? Of course loving our neighbor was a very difficult task, even with the grace of God - so I suppose that learning to hate them will be rather easy - since it very much appeals to our carnal instincts...


My answer-- although I don't quite consider myself a staunch Calvinist, more a Christian who happens to see the Calvinist soteriology as being closest to right-- is that God won't have to teach us to hate. When we are with Him, we shall be as He is, and our love for God and His love for us will become our primary focus. Anything in opposition to that love, such as the non-elect who lived and died in unrepentant rebellion, will be subject to the hatred of God and, by extension, the elect as well.

[seer]

My answer-- although I don't quite consider myself a staunch Calvinist, more a Christian who happens to see the Calvinist soteriology as being closest to right-- is that God won't have to teach us to hate. When we are with Him, we shall be as He is, and our love for God and His love for us will become our primary focus. Anything in opposition to that love, such as the non-elect who lived and died in unrepentant rebellion, will be subject to the hatred of God and, by extension, the elect as well.

Yes, then that would be a complete reversal of His commandment to love our neighbors. Since many of the non-elect will be the very people we were commanded to love. And like I said - hate comes much easier than love. It just kind of seems like we would be going backward... Into a more carnal state. But I could be wrong...

[brother vinny]

Yes, then that would be a complete reversal of His commandment to love our neighbors.

Not really, because they'll no longer be our neighbors. The battle we engage in here on earth, you'll remember, is a spiritual one, not one against flesh and bone.

Loving our neighbors (i.e., whoever crosses our path, basically) is practical on Earth because we have no way of knowing whether our neighbor is elect or not.

But the elect will hold part in the judgment of the rest of the world. At that time, we will see the non-elect as they are: spirits in rebellion of the one true God. Will we be able to render just verdicts with conflicting emotions of love getting in the way?


It just kind of seems like we would be going backward... Into a more carnal state. But I could be wrong...


I think it seems that way because we have the burden of the flesh. Let me ask you this: The psalms speak magnificently of the hatred God has for those who oppose Him. Does God's hatred of the wicked make Him carnal? If no, will our hatred of the wicked, once our flesh is no longer a concern, make us any more carnal?

[seer]

But the elect will hold part in the judgment of the rest of the world. At that time, we will see the non-elect as they are: spirits in rebellion of the one true God. Will we be able to render just verdicts with conflicting emotions of love getting in the way?

Heck, we see that spirit of rebellion in most of our neighbors today... The "conflicting emotions of love" getting in the way? It seems to me that love is the highest and most difficult attribute we can aspire too...

I think it seems that way because we have the burden of the flesh. Let me ask you this: The psalms speak magnificently of the hatred God has for those who oppose Him. Does God's hatred of the wicked make Him carnal? If no, will our hatred of the wicked, once our flesh is no longer a concern, make us any more carnal?

Well the Psalmists were often wrong. Remember the Psalmist taught us to hate our enemies. In direct contradiction with the teachings of Christ.

[brother vinny]

Well the Psalmists were often wrong. Remember the Psalmist taught us to hate our enemies. In direct contradiction with the teachings of Christ.

I notice, seer, that you didn't answer the questions with a "yes" or "no," but merely cast aspersions on the inspiration of the Psalms.

Allow me to ask them again, ans try not to answer these with "Ask Again Later":

1) Does God's hatred of the wicked make Him carnal?

2) If the answer to 1) is "no," will our hatred of the wicked, once our flesh is no longer a concern, make us any more carnal?

[seer]

1) Does God's hatred of the wicked make Him carnal?

2) If the answer to 1) is "no," will our hatred of the wicked, once our flesh is no longer a concern, make us any more carnal?

I don't think that God simply hates the wicked. I think He may in fact both hate their acts but love them as His offspring. So yes - a hatred unmixed with love could be carnal.

I notice, seer, that you didn't answer the questions with a "yes" or "no," but merely cast aspersions on the inspiration of the Psalms.

I do not question these things lightly, but...

Psalm 139:

"For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies."

Matthew 5:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

Who is correct? Christ or David?

[brother vinny]

I don't think that God simply hates the wicked. I think He may in fact both hate their acts but love them as His offspring. So yes - a hatred unmixed with love could be carnal.


I would disagree. If God has no sinful fleshly nature, then His hatred would be pure and untainted by sin. Similarly, if we are unburdened by our sinful, fleshly natures, we too will have the ability to hate that which is evil without becoming evil ourselves.


I do not question these things lightly, but...

Psalm 139:

"For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies."

Matthew 5:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

Who is correct? Christ or David?


Both, for different times in God's dealing with man.

[seer]

Both, for different times in God's dealing with man.

Really? Where did you pick that up? So in the Old Testament it was a good thing to hate your enemy, but now it's a bad thing? Is God a moral relativist?

I would disagree. If God has no sinful fleshly nature, then His hatred would be pure and untainted by sin. Similarly, if we are unburdened by our sinful, fleshly natures, we too will have the ability to hate that which is evil without becoming evil ourselves.

Sure, if God simply hated a being - it would not be carnal. But God takes NO pleasure in the death of the wicked. So there is a real sense that He still cares for them...

[brother vinny]

Allow me to cut to the chase with a single question for you, seer. Again, it's a yes/no question, so it shouldn't strain the circuits.

Do you harbor even a smidgen of love for Satan in your bosom?

[seer]

Do you harbor even a smidgen of love for Satan in your bosom?

Of course not. But does God? Who knows. Satan is not a fellow human being created in the image of God. Heck, I can not say that I "love" the elect angels - I don't know them. And remember those demons that Christ cast out of that possesed fellow? They begged him not to be casted into the abyss - and He had compassion on them and granted their request...

Like I said: God takes NO pleasure in the death of the wicked. Perhaps that includes the Devil - perhaps not... God's "tender mercies" are over ALL His works...

[Kevin Wayne]

Allow me to cut to the chase with a single question for you, seer. Again, it's a yes/no question, so it shouldn't strain the circuits.

Do you harbor even a smidgen of love for Satan in your bosom?


:lol: What a NON issue...!


If there was ever a way that "Satan" was clearly defined as "my neighbor" or "my enemy" (in the sense Paul is talking about in Romans), then yes I would. Otherwise the point is moot.

OTOH, I don't waste time hating him either. Even Michael just says "The Lord rebuke you!."


Awhile back I read Boenhoefer's comments on the imprecatory prayers of Psalms. I couldn't find that online, but I did find a discussion of his explaination (http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=2737&C=2488) of those Psalms, as well as an article that cites from him (http://www.the-highway.com/articleJune00.html) on the same general issue.

[brother vinny]

:lol: What a NON issue...!


If there was ever a way that "Satan" was clearly defined as "my neighbor" or "my enemy" (in the sense Paul is talking about in Romans), then yes I would. Otherwise the point is moot.

That was partly my point. These souls we call the non-elect will no longer be our neighbors. We will see these souls as God sees them, then-- as His enemies.

As for God taking absolutely no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, I wonder why the burning of the lost souls creates a smoke that ascends up forever (Rev. 14:11)? Does this mean God's not going to be pleased because He's being constantly surrounded by the evidence of the wicked's destruction?

[Kevin Wayne]

That was partly my point. These souls we call the non-elect will no longer be our neighbors. We will see these souls as God sees them, then-- as His enemies.

As for God taking absolutely no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, I wonder why the burning of the lost souls creates a smoke that ascends up forever (Rev. 14:11)? Does this mean God's not going to be pleased because He's being constantly surrounded by the evidence of the wicked's destruction?



Who knows and who cares? For me, Discipleship drives Theology, and therefore getting to how it is Christ wants me to be in the here & now is what it's all about. Plus I don't think we can be trained by Christ or know truth until we have been crucified (Lk 14:27, Romans 12:1-2). From those things, I derive my picture of what God is like, and stuff that we can't plainly know from scripture doesn't really play a part.

[Thomas2003]

Psalm 139:

"For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies."

Matthew 5:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

Who is correct? Christ or David?

There is no contradiction there, Christ is not contradicting Scripture - but Judaism's misinterpretation and misapplication of Scripture.

Man's enemies and God's enemies are often two different things. For example, Paul was an enemy of the Church that utterly wasted it and persecuted it, but he was not God's enemies - he did those things in unbelief. Once his election became known he repented and was baptized and sought reconciliation with Christians.

Now, there is a big difference between Paul and Judas, but both sought the destruction of Christ and His Church. Paul was against the Church and openly tried to destroy it, yet he became an Apostle above the others; Judas was an Apostle and betrayed Christ with a kiss. One things is certain, we do not want to find ourselves standing as the latter.

One we are commanded to love, the other falls in line with Psalms 139, there are a few occasions in life where one can make these types of identifications. I believe I once made such an identification and I once engaged an imprecatory prayer, I'll have to answer for it whether it was just or not. I don't plan on uttering one again - the responsibility is too great, but that responsibility doen't negate the validity of it.

Cordially,

Thomas

[Ormly]

RE: Paul


Once his election became known he repented and was baptized and sought reconciliation with Christians.




What election was that that he would call it by that term unless you just mean God foreknew he would repent under the right circumstances and then God would use him in a special way based upon his education?

[brother vinny]

Who knows and who cares? For me, Discipleship drives Theology, and therefore getting to how it is Christ wants me to be in the here & now is what it's all about.

The question wasn't about the here and now, so why did you feel the need to butt in?

[seer]

One we are commanded to love, the other falls in line with Psalms 139, there are a few occasions in life where one can make these types of identifications. I believe I once made such an identification and I once engaged an imprecatory prayer, I'll have to answer for it whether it was just or not. I don't plan on uttering one again - the responsibility is too great, but that responsibility doen't negate the validity of it.

How could you make such distinctions? If you knew Paul in his early years you would have been convinced that he was an enemy of God. And so are the vast majority of our unbelieving neighbors. Are they not enemies of God? So do we get to hate them?

You are not making sense Tom...

[Duder]

That was partly my point. These souls we call the non-elect will no longer be our neighbors. We will see these souls as God sees them, then-- as His enemies.

It has always seemed to me that those who speak of God as having enemies must be mistaken.

To qualify as my enemy, a person has to do more than just dislike me or wish to impede me. He has to pose a credible threat to me or to my plans.

For example, let's say I'm turning over some soil to make a garden, and one of those harmless little "rolley-polley" bugs takes issue with what I am doing. He faces me in total defiace, yelling at the top of his lungs that he despises me, and that he will defeat my designs and utterly destroy me.
:rant:
Assuming that I don't have an extremely delicate ego, what sense would it make for me to hate this little bug or to consider him my enemy?

God is so much further above any human being than I am above that little bug. What could possibly justify His feeling that a man could be His enemy? Surely no man, nor even any great angelic being, represents even the slightest hint of a threat to the Most High.

[Kevin Wayne]

The question wasn't about the here and now, so why did you feel the need to butt in?


1. Because it's a free country.

2. Because I'm a participant on this site.

3. Because Discpleship, which we experience in the here and now, is (as I explained), my method of hermanuetic by which I aspire to know God.

4. Because knowing what God is like is pertinent to the question in the OP.

5. Because I was a participant in this thread before you were, so it isn't "butting in", sonny-boy! :wink:


How could you make such distinctions? If you knew Paul in his early years you would have been convinced that he was an enemy of God. And so are the vast majority of our unbelieving neighbors. Are they not enemies of God? So do we get to hate them?

You are not making sense Tom...


Not sure if I agree on the "enemies of God thing" either, but overall that was actually one of his better posts.

[brother vinny]

Kevin Wayne,

Let me rephrase: seer's original question had to do with the sweet-by-and-by, not the here-and-now. If your focus is, as you claim, the here-and-now, why did you feel the need to involve yourself?

And I'm 35. Am I really young enough to be your son?

[Kevin Wayne]

Kevin Wayne,

Let me rephrase: seer's original question had to do with the sweet-by-and-by, not the here-and-now. If your focus is, as you claim, the here-and-now, why did you feel the need to involve yourself?

And I'm 35. Am I really young enough to be your son?


Well of COURSE.. I started out when I was 10! j/k ;-)



To answer the other question... God is the same yesterday, today and forever. I don't expect him to have a personality disorder between knowing him now or in the sweet by & by...

[Amazing Rando]

Both, for different times in God's dealing with man.

Man, I thought you left that dispensationalism stuff behind on the "other" board. :nsm:

[Amazing Rando]

Well of COURSE.. I started out when I was 10! j/k ;-)





Dang! You're 45? I woulda thought you were 30, tops!