"And God created man in His own image..."

[Ormly]

What it mean for God to create man as He did; His purpose for doing so? What did God want by creating man? What did He want from created man? What did it mean for created man to have been created?

It may be difficult for most to see beyond redemption as the starting point because that's what we have all been mostly taught, i.e., history begins with the fall of man. But there is different, God centered perspective, from the Bible that has gone almost completely unnoticed/ignored. Certainly it isn't preached. In this arena of thought Calvinist and whomever else should find agreement if personal "redemption" prejudices/bias can be laid aside. May I suggest all beginning in Eph 1 for a brief overview that will help establish I proper starting point.

Orm

[8320john]

What it mean for God to create man as He did; His purpose for doing so? What did God want by creating man? What did He want from created man? What did it mean for created man to have been created?

It may be difficult for most to see beyond redemption as the starting point because that's what we have all been mostly taught, i.e., history begins with the fall of man. But there is different, God centered perspective, from the Bible that has gone almost completely unnoticed/ignored. Certainly it isn't preached. In this arena of thought Calvinist and whomever else should find agreement if personal "redemption" prejudices/bias can be laid aside. May I suggest all beginning in Eph 1 for a brief overview that will help establish I proper starting point.

Orm

You will of course expand regarding this subject!? If not we are assured that what is in fact revealed belongs to us and to our children leaving that which is UNrevealed to God. But I for one would like to read your view of "why?" God created man...please continue....!

[Ormly]

You will of course expand regarding this subject!? If not we are assured that what is in fact revealed belongs to us and to our children leaving that which is UNrevealed to God. But I for one would like to read your view of "why?" God created man...please continue....!

Suffice to say that how we view what we read will determine to a great degree what is revealed for us for our profit. Therefore our starting point has to be before Adam's transgression. Stating that to be accurate we can ask better questions and receive better answers from scripture.

#1. God wanted a vast family of begotten sons. The obvious question now would be, why? Christ must be considered in your answer because in Him would it be accomplished regardless of the need for redemption. If you read Eph.1 carefully, you will see that.

[8320john]

Suffice to say that how we view what we read will determine to a great degree what is revealed for us for our profit. Therefore our starting point has to be before Adam's transgression. Stating that to be accurate we can ask better questions and receive better answers from scripture.

#1. God wanted a vast family of begotten sons. The obvious question now would be, why? Christ must be considered in your answer because in Him would it be accomplished regardless of the need for redemption. If you read Eph.1 carefully, you will see that.

Please expand...continue!!

[Ormly]

#1. God wanted a vast family of begotten sons.

That is an absolute statement and can't be argued.


Genesis 1:27-28 (NASB-U)
God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth .......

1 Cor. 15:45-46 (NASB-U)
....... "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." ...........the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

Adam had not one ounce of divinity within him yet he was from the very heart of God, expressed by Christ and placed at point "A" on Earth. There he was to progress, by a series of moral choices, to point "Z". Point "Z" is union with God; divine-man. So we can say that Adam [idea] existed in Christ.



Do we have agreement so far?

[8320john]

#1. God wanted a vast family of begotten sons.

That is an absolute statement and can't be argued.


Genesis 1:27-28 (NASB-U)
God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth .......

1 Cor. 15:45-46 (NASB-U)
....... "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." ...........the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

Adam had not one ounce of divinity within him yet he was from the very heart of God, expressed by Christ and placed at point "A" on Earth. There he was to progress, by a series of moral choices, to point "Z". Point "Z" is union with God; divine-man. So we can say that Adam [idea] existed in Christ.



Do we have agreement so far?

Continue....

[Ormly]

Continue....

Since it looks like you and I are the only participants on this thread I don't see much sense in continuing unless we have agreement. I'd be happy to explain anything to you if you have a question. I won't argue this thread.

[8320john]

Since it looks like you and I are the only participants on this thread I don't see much sense in continuing unless we have agreement. I'd be happy to explain anything to you if you have a question. I won't argue this thread.

No arguement intended, continue with your narrative.

[Ormly]

Do we have agreement? Can you see that Adam was in Christ before he was ever created per Ephes. 1:4: "......He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love ......" (NASB)

[Ormly]

Do we have agreement? Can you see that Adam was in Christ before he was ever created per Ephes. 1:4: "......He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love ......" (NASB)

Since he was in Christ before creation, and was created by Him, the Word, can we not then say, because it was given to him to choose, he was an independent human with a crystal clear "self" nature?

[Ormly]

Do we have agreement? Can you see that Adam was in Christ before he was ever created per Ephes. 1:4: "......He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love ......" (NASB)

Since he was in Christ before creation, and was created by Him, the Word, can we not then say, because it was given to him to choose, he was an independent human with a crystal clear "self" nature?


Seems 8320 doesn't wish to continue in this. Not enough Calvin in it, I suppose.

[Nang]

Do we have agreement? Can you see that Adam was in Christ before he was ever created per Ephes. 1:4: "......He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love ......" (NASB)

Since he was in Christ before creation, and was created by Him, the Word, can we not then say, because it was given to him to choose, he was an independent human with a crystal clear "self" nature?

Not too sure you can assume that Adam was in Christ. Was Adam elect? Was Adam born of God's Spirit?

If Adam was created in Christ and saved by grace through faith, why did he not exhibit any faith and belief in the commands of God?

Why did Adam believe the lie of the serpent, if he was supposedly elect and chosen to inherit the Kingdom of God?

I believe the first Adam is antithetical to the last Adam; Jesus Christ.

(I agree with you that to begin a discussion of these things, that Ephesians 1 is a good place to start.)

Nang

[Ormly]

Not too sure you can assume that Adam was in Christ. Was Adam elect? Was Adam born of God's Spirit?

If Adam was created in Christ and saved by grace through faith, why did he not exhibit any faith and belief in the commands of God?

Why did Adam believe the lie of the serpent, if he was supposedly elect and chosen to inherit the Kingdom of God?

I believe the first Adam is antithetical to the last Adam; Jesus Christ.

(I agree with you that to begin a discussion of these things, that Ephesians 1 is a good place to start.)

Nang

Then you surely can answer the question: Was Adam in the Mind of God to become a son unto Him before He created him? I.e., What was God's purpose for Adam to become?

In regards to Adam and the serpent: Didn't Adam, possess a sinless self-nature when he was created?

[Nang]

Then you surely can answer the question: Was Adam in the Mind of God to become a son unto Him before He created him? I.e., What was God's purpose for Adam to become?


A living being. (I Cor. 15:45)

In regards to Adam and the serpent: Didn't Adam, possess a sinless self-nature when he was created?

Obviously not, because Adam sinned. If Adam were sinless (like Jesus Christ, the Man, was sinless) he would have never sinned.

Adam was created upright, but "upright" does not equate with "sinless."

Adam was upright and therefore did not commit a sin for a temporary time in the beginning, but Jesus Christ is eternally sinless in His divine nature.

Nang

[micah4]

Adam was created upright, but "upright" does not equate with "sinless."


So one can sin and still be upright?

[Nang]

So one can sin and still be upright?

No.

God created Adam good, who for a time remained upright and in fellowship with God, but Adam in time sinned and lost his original innocence and uprightness.

Nang

[micah4]

No.

God created Adam good, who for a time remained upright and in fellowship with God, but Adam in time sinned and lost his original innocence and uprightness.

Nang

So here's what you've asserted so far, Nang:

1)Adam's state was "not sinless".
2)Adam's fellowship with God was not broken, however, until he deliberately broke God's explicit command.

(2) comes from your response this thread:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1205092&postcount=99

But the same thing could be said of any baby born today accdg. to reform theology- they are "not sinless", and yet they haven't deliberately broken God's explicit commands. So do you hold that a baby created in the womb is upright and in fellowship with God until that baby deliberately breaks the explicit commands given to him by God? For you appear to hold that a person may be "not sinless" and yet still be upright until they have deliberately sinned.

[Nang]

So here's what you've asserted so far, Nang:

1)Adam's state was "not sinless".
2)Adam's fellowship with God was not broken, however, until he deliberately broke God's explicit command.

(2) comes from your response this thread:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1205092&postcount=99

But the same thing could be said of any baby born today accdg. to reform theology- they are "not sinless", and yet they haven't deliberately broken God's explicit commands.

You are mistaken about this.

God teaches in His Holy Scriptures that all fetuses since Adam are conceived in sin, and thus all babies are born with the law of sin in their members. There are no "sinless" babies, for all have inherited the sinful nature of Adam.





So do you hold that a baby created in the womb is upright and in fellowship with God until that baby deliberately breaks the explicit commands given to him by God? For you appear to hold that a person may be "not sinless" and yet still be upright until they have deliberately sinned.

No.

Please read Psalm 51:5 and Psalm 58:3.

The discussion is regarding Adam and his condition with God, and not (yet) regarding his descendents.

Nang

[micah4]

You are mistaken about this.

God teaches in His Holy Scriptures that all fetuses since Adam are conceived in sin, and thus all babies are born with the law of sin in their members. There are no "sinless" babies, for all have inherited the sinful nature of Adam.



I did not say that babies are sinless; I acknowledged (for consideration) the position of your theology that says that babies are not sinless. You say they have the "law of sin" in there members, but you have also said regarding Adam that he too had this "law of sin" within him prior to the fall, and yet you also claim that he was "good" and "upright" and in fellowship with god until he deliberately sinned. So what is it that determines whether one is "upright" and in fellowship? Is it being created with this "law of sin" inside (as with infants, but not Adam), or is it deliberate transgression (As with Adam, but not infants)? You have communicated two different positions.

[Nang]

I did not say that babies are sinless; I acknowledged (for consideration) the position of your theology that says that babies are not sinless. You say they have the "law of sin" in there members, but you have also said regarding Adam that he too had this "law of sin" within him prior to the fall, and yet you also claim that he was "good" and "upright" and in fellowship with god until he deliberately sinned. So what is it that determines whether one is "upright" and in fellowship?

Adam's walk in fellowship with God, as an "upright" man, was unique and temporary.

After his fall into sin, ~all~ fellowship between God and humankind was lost. Because of the original sin, no man is found upright before God. (Romans 3:19)

Reconciliation unto renewed fellowship with God is found only by faith in Jesus Christ.

Nang

[Ormly]

A living being. (I Cor. 15:45)

1 Cor. 15:45 (KJV)
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Does that answer the question "why"? Wake up!


2 Tim. 2:23 (NASB-U)
But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.

2 Tim. 2:23 (KJV)
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.



Is there anyone with Biblical knowledge sincerely curious about God's purposes beyond heaven as the goal in life for the Christian and how they are explained from the gospel, who would like to discuss this. I'm not going to let myself be consumed responding these kinds of silly unlearned questions. It isn't profitable and thus a waste of time.

[Nang]

1 Cor. 15:45 (KJV)
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Does that answer the question "why"? Wake up!

Ormly asked:

Then you surely can answer the question: Was Adam in the Mind of God to become a son unto Him before He created him? I.e., What was God's purpose for Adam to become?

I answered the second question with Scripture, that also gives an affirmative to the first question:

"A living being. (I Cor. 15:45)"

God created Adam in order to produce a living being (soul) made in His image. This could not have been an accident, but Adam was most surely in the mind of God before He created Him. Male and female, God created humanity for the most profound reasons.

So what are you pouting about? And where is a supposed question asking "why?" There is no "why" in the two questions I answered.


2 Tim. 2:23 (NASB-U)
But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.

2 Tim. 2:23 (KJV)
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.


Who is speculating and asking questions, but Ormly! :lol:


Nang

[Ormly]

Ormly asked:

Then you surely can answer the question: Was Adam in the Mind of God to become a son unto Him before He created him? I.e., What was God's purpose for Adam to become?

I answered the second question with Scripture, that also gives an affirmative to the first question:

"A living being. (I Cor. 15:45)"

God created Adam in order to produce a living being (soul) made in His image. This could not have been an accident, but Adam was most surely in the mind of God before He created Him. Male and female, God created humanity for the most profound reasons.

So what are you pouting about? And where is a supposed question asking "why?" There is no "why" in the two questions I answered.





Who is speculating and asking questions, but Ormly! :lol:


Nang

What does this question ask, obstuse one, if not why was he created?

"What was God's purpose for Adam to become"