The Exclusive (or Inclusive?) Christ

[Spiderman&Co.]

What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive. I am NOT asking whether there is salvation outside of Christ. This seems to me to be a clear biblical teaching. (I would refer you to a post on my blog if you doubt my sincerity about the exclusivity of the cross http://theosproject.blogspot.com/2005/09/strange-and-exclusive-claims-of-christ.html)

What about the many people alive today who will never hear a proper presentation of the Gospel? Can these people receive grace for salvation if they reach out to God in faith? A faith based on God's revelation in nature and in the world and even in their own hearts? See Romans 1 and 2 for the biblical thoughts on this subject. My thought is that people will be judge according to the faith they have in the revelation available to them and that their knowledge will be completed in the next life when the cross of Christ is made known to them.

Here are some links posted by another Tweber in a recent post. These are current intellectual and church leaders grappling with this issue:
William Lane Craig:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/bill...g-bradley1.html
Billy Graham and Schuller:
http://www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy52.htm
Rev. Osteen:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../03/lkl.01.html

And please, no "heresy" charges! Or, if you do use the H-Word, then please do so in an intellectual and thoughtful way: No hit-and-run accusations without substance! You people know who you are!What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive. I am NOT asking whether there is salvation outside of Christ. This seems to me to be a clear biblical teaching. (I would refer you to a post on my blog if you doubt my sincerity about the exclusivity of the cross http://theosproject.blogspot.com/2005/09/strange-and-exclusive-claims-of-christ.html)

[smaller]

What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive. I am NOT asking whether there is salvation outside of Christ. This seems to me to be a clear biblical teaching. (I would refer you to a post on my blog if you doubt my sincerity about the exclusivity of the cross http://theosproject.blogspot.com/2005/09/strange-and-exclusive-claims-of-christ.html)

What about the many people alive today who will never hear a proper presentation of the Gospel? Can these people receive grace for salvation if they reach out to God in faith? A faith based on God's revelation in nature and in the world and even in their own hearts? See Romans 1 and 2 for the biblical thoughts on this subject. My thought is that people will be judge according to the faith they have in the revelation available to them and that their knowledge will be completed in the next life when the cross of Christ is made known to them.

Here are some links posted by another Tweber in a recent post. These are current intellectual and church leaders grappling with this issue:
William Lane Craig:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/bill...g-bradley1.html
Billy Graham and Schuller:
http://www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy52.htm
Rev. Osteen:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../03/lkl.01.html

And please, no "heresy" charges! Or, if you do use the H-Word, then please do so in an intellectual and thoughtful way: No hit-and-run accusations without substance! You people know who you are!What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive. I am NOT asking whether there is salvation outside of Christ. This seems to me to be a clear biblical teaching. (I would refer you to a post on my blog if you doubt my sincerity about the exclusivity of the cross http://theosproject.blogspot.com/2005/09/strange-and-exclusive-claims-of-christ.html)

I can tell by the sincerity of your question, and even in the picture contained in your posts of Spidey & "friend" that Love is trying to find you afresh.

In order to answer that question it is YOU who must set aside the hell YOU CARRY unto other people in your own heart and replace that usurper IN YOU with The Truth of God's Overcoming Love for all people.

The resistors to Love are IN THE CHURCH and we are called to cast away that wicked "one."

This is our individual battle to make and if you are a Warrior of Love in His Love you will find that Victory and your ANSWER.

Love has written some very vital Word against things such as death, sin, and evil and the anti-spiritual entities that Word is written against.

It is THESE THINGS IN YOU that have stolen His Word from you in this matter.

Just as THE LAW reveals LAWLESSNESS in us...

In like manner only MORESO Grace and Truth in Jesus Christ reveals ETERNAL DAMNATION TO OUR UNSAVED NEIGHBORS in US! The worst form of LAWLESSNESS that could ever be is revealed IN THE CHURCH!

Hello! You have been delivered A DIVINE SETUP by The Word, that you may OVERCOME THAT THING in and by HIS LOVE.

It's a better arrangement than any of the the idealism in a Spiderman Movie but you may not understand. It's not unusual that people don't understand, just as they do not understand what Spidey hides within himself.

All people are God's offspring and children. God will not burn them alive in conscious torment. You must stop damning them and prove you are not a slave of wickedness.

Until then I will continue to write to you and others as slaves of darkness and I do so in HOPE that His Children will find RELEASE from their captors and LOVE for their fellow man that does not damn those people to burn alive.

There are some very notable names in your list that are coming to this understanding and this is a joyous thing to me.

We can retain ALL of the eternal damnation scriptures and yet not see ONE PERSON of mankind suffer the fate that is reserved for THE WICKED ONES.

It is the resistors IN YOU who are being exposed in this process. They will be utterly destroyed without recourse by The Word of God.

If you write back as an accuser, an opposer, or a resistor to God's Love to ALL, save the devil his firey breath.

Matt. 13:
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

enjoy!

ears...

[themuzicman]

What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive. I am NOT asking whether there is salvation outside of Christ. This seems to me to be a clear biblical teaching. (I would refer you to a post on my blog if you doubt my sincerity about the exclusivity of the cross http://theosproject.blogspot.com/2005/09/strange-and-exclusive-claims-of-christ.html)

What about the many people alive today who will never hear a proper presentation of the Gospel? Can these people receive grace for salvation if they reach out to God in faith? A faith based on God's revelation in nature and in the world and even in their own hearts? See Romans 1 and 2 for the biblical thoughts on this subject. My thought is that people will be judge according to the faith they have in the revelation available to them and that their knowledge will be completed in the next life when the cross of Christ is made known to them.

Here are some links posted by another Tweber in a recent post. These are current intellectual and church leaders grappling with this issue:
William Lane Craig:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/bill...g-bradley1.html
Billy Graham and Schuller:
http://www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy52.htm
Rev. Osteen:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../03/lkl.01.html

And please, no "heresy" charges! Or, if you do use the H-Word, then please do so in an intellectual and thoughtful way: No hit-and-run accusations without substance! You people know who you are!What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive. I am NOT asking whether there is salvation outside of Christ. This seems to me to be a clear biblical teaching. (I would refer you to a post on my blog if you doubt my sincerity about the exclusivity of the cross http://theosproject.blogspot.com/2005/09/strange-and-exclusive-claims-of-christ.html)

I think if you study Romans 10:9-17, you'll find your answer. The implication of verse 14-16 seems to be that one is simply unable to believe and call upon the name of the Lord, unless they've heard a preacher preach the gospel. That's why I tie that closely with John 6:44-45, where God's drawing, which is His teaching must be followed by our hearing and learning from Him before we are able to believe.

I don't know how you can read Romans 10:9-17 any other way.

Michael

[seer]

What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive. I am NOT asking whether there is salvation outside of Christ. This seems to me to be a clear biblical teaching. (I would refer you to a post on my blog if you doubt my sincerity about the exclusivity of the cross http://theosproject.blogspot.com/2005/09/strange-and-exclusive-claims-of-christ.html)

What about the many people alive today who will never hear a proper presentation of the Gospel? Can these people receive grace for salvation if they reach out to God in faith? A faith based on God's revelation in nature and in the world and even in their own hearts? See Romans 1 and 2 for the biblical thoughts on this subject. My thought is that people will be judge according to the faith they have in the revelation available to them and that their knowledge will be completed in the next life when the cross of Christ is made known to them.

Here are some links posted by another Tweber in a recent post. These are current intellectual and church leaders grappling with this issue:
William Lane Craig:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/bill...g-bradley1.html
Billy Graham and Schuller:
http://www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy52.htm
Rev. Osteen:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../03/lkl.01.html

And please, no "heresy" charges! Or, if you do use the H-Word, then please do so in an intellectual and thoughtful way: No hit-and-run accusations without substance! You people know who you are!What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive. I am NOT asking whether there is salvation outside of Christ. This seems to me to be a clear biblical teaching. (I would refer you to a post on my blog if you doubt my sincerity about the exclusivity of the cross http://theosproject.blogspot.com/2005/09/strange-and-exclusive-claims-of-christ.html)

I think this is simple. God knew from all eternity who would freely repent and who would reject Him. And God organized the world and events in such a way that those who will freely respond, hear the Gospel. If a man dies without hearing the Gospel it is because God knew that the man would never have repented.

[Spiderman&Co.]

If a man dies without hearing the Gospel it is because God knew that the man would never have repented.

A few men who died w/o hearing the Gospel include...
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob

[Tercel]

I think if you study Romans 10:9-17, you'll find your answer. The implication of verse 14-16 seems to be that one is simply unable to believe and call upon the name of the Lord, unless they've heard a preacher preach the gospel...

I don't know how you can read Romans 10:9-17 any other way.Here's another way of reading it: in context.

Specifically in the context of Rom 10:18. Paul in Rom 10:9-17 has just given his opponents' argument, and responds in vs 18 with "But I say" and gives a Biblical quote that says all people everywhere know of God through his creation.

[seer]

A few men who died w/o hearing the Gospel include...
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob

That is not quite true. Certainly Abrahan heard the Gospel. And so did others indirectly. Either way - my point stands. God knew those who would freely receive His Son (whether B.C. or A.D.) and they will get the opportunity...

[Spiderman&Co.]

10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[g]

Let me preface by saying I have never undertaken any serious exegesis of this passage. However, it seems clear that Paul is setting up a series of rhetorical questions to which the obvious answer is "No": A person cannot "call" on someone they do not "believe in." They cannot "believe" in someone of whom they have not "heard." And they cannot "hear" unless someone "preaches to them."

But Paul does not go any farther in offering the details of what happens to the one who does not hear. I would presume that we would be better to go back to what he wrote earlier in Romans 1 and 2 where we see that God has revealed himself in ways outside of Christ (i.e. general revelation). The indication in these two chapters is that man is both responsible for rejecting God's general revelation and also will be positively rewarded for accepting this general revelation through faith.

It seems as though Paul's point in Romans 10 is not to say that men will be damned on the basis of not hearing about Christ. To say this would overreach the intention of this passage. It seems to me that the point Paul is communicating seems to be summed up in verse 15: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news." This, by the way, is a quote from the Old Testament (Isaiah 53:1). In Old Testament days, of course, there was no specific knowledge of Jesus Christ, or any detailed understanding of what it meant for Jesus to suffer on the cross as a propitiation for our sins. There was a concept of grace and atonement, but no detailed knowledge of how that was going to pan out with the coming Messiah. The Messiah would come to save, but how that happened was yet to be revealed. It seems that those who have died without hearing about Jesus Christ would be in a similar situation as the Old Testament believer: They would have to have faith in the limited revelation that God had provided.

Just a few thoughts...

[smaller]

That is not quite true. Certainly Abrahan heard the Gospel. And so did others indirectly. Either way - my point stands. God knew those who would freely receive His Son (whether B.C. or A.D.) and they will get the opportunity...

Why give someone an "opportunity" when you know in advance they would say no and you'd have to torture/annihilate them? Are you going Calvinist now?

Weird...

[smaller]

A few men who died w/o hearing the Gospel include...
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob

Do you know your "word?"

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

And if Abraham heard it, so did the others listed.

[themuzicman]

A few men who died w/o hearing the Gospel include...
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob


Umm.. Jesus said that Abraham saw his coming, and worshipped God, so I don't think this is true.

[geebob]

I think if you study Romans 10:9-17, you'll find your answer. The implication of verse 14-16 seems to be that one is simply unable to believe and call upon the name of the Lord, unless they've heard a preacher preach the gospel. That's why I tie that closely with John 6:44-45, where God's drawing, which is His teaching must be followed by our hearing and learning from Him before we are able to believe.

I don't know how you can read Romans 10:9-17 any other way.

You can read it continuing to listen to what paul says next and observing the scripture he is quoting.

18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
"THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." (Caps aren't mine, that's the NASB shouting)


This quote is from psalm 19:4

4 Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,

5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.

So here, it seems that Paul sees the gospel in general revelation available to all men.

And paul does believe that God's grace is available to all men.

26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

So is this half measures on the part of God? that God should do something for a possibility that yet remained impossible?

[GoBahnsen]

I think this is simple. God knew from all eternity who would freely repent and who would reject Him. And God organized the world and events in such a way that those who will freely respond, hear the Gospel. If a man dies without hearing the Gospel it is because God knew that the man would never have repented.I don't think so seer and here's why: you have entire nations who live in Gospel darkness. In your view, it seems that what you're saying then is, that God sent the souls of those He knew wouldn't believe, into Muslim countries or whatever you like.

Rather I think, it seems that God purposed to create a world in which He would freely choose those He wanted. Many from one nation, a few from another. His choosing, not their's intially. Else we should see more of a self leveling effect.

Like water seeking it's own level, if your view is correct, we might think to find a more level or equal amount of sinners from every nation turning to Jesus. But, the world is and always has been terribly lopsided, in terms of where God sends His light (Gospel) and His Spirit.

Another thing, your view presumes a pure efficiency type of approach. In other words, in your view it seems that God is just trying to give everyone a chance and hopes they will do the right thing. So...He ought to have ensured a more efficient type of world where people have more of the same opportunity to take their best shot at saving themselves by their faith.

We don't have that kind of world and are apparently not anywhere near it, nor ever have been, afaict.

[Nang]

What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive.

No, there is not.


Nang

[seer]

I don't think so seer and here's why: you have entire nations who live in Gospel darkness. In your view, it seems that what you're saying then is, that God sent the souls of those He knew wouldn't believe, into Muslim countries or whatever you like.

Hello GB. Yes they live I Gospel darkness. But the same goes for Calvinism. I guess God doesn't like the Hindus very much or the Arabs...

Rather I think, it seems that God purposed to create a world in which He would freely choose those He wanted. Many from one nation, a few from another. His choosing, not their's intially. Else we should see more of a self leveling effect.

Why would my view require a more self leveling effect than yours? It doesn't... Unless you believe that God generally prefers white folks over blacks and arabs...

Another thing, your view presumes a pure efficiency type of approach. In other words, in your view it seems that God is just trying to give everyone a chance and hopes they will do the right thing. So...He ought to have ensured a more efficient type of world where people have more of the same opportunity to take their best shot at saving themselves by their faith.

No not at all. God knew who exactly would respond and who wouldn't. God is not "trying" to give all the same opportunity, He sovereignly orders the world so that the gospel is effectively brought to those who will freely respond.

[GoBahnsen]

I don't think so seer and here's why: you have entire nations who live in Gospel darkness. In your view, it seems that what you're saying then is, that God sent the souls of those He knew wouldn't believe, into Muslim countries or whatever you like.

Hello GB. Yes they live I Gospel darkness. But the same goes for Calvinism. I guess God doesn't like the Hindus very much or the Arabs...

Rather I think, it seems that God purposed to create a world in which He would freely choose those He wanted. Many from one nation, a few from another. His choosing, not their's intially. Else we should see more of a self leveling effect.

Why would my view require a more self leveling effect than yours? It doesn't... Unless you believe that God generally prefers white folks over blacks and arabs...

Another thing, your view presumes a pure efficiency type of approach. In other words, in your view it seems that God is just trying to give everyone a chance and hopes they will do the right thing. So...He ought to have ensured a more efficient type of world where people have more of the same opportunity to take their best shot at saving themselves by their faith.

No not at all. God knew who exactly would respond and who wouldn't. God is not "trying" to give all the same opportunity, He sovereignly orders the world so that the gospel is effectively brought to those who will freely respond.In a way... we're not all that far apart seer. I agree that God knows. Our difference is in God's involvement of what He knows.

Your view of God is too "hands off" for me, and mine is too "hands on" for you.

[Xmansmommy]

Great thread and comments Spidey! :thumb: I've tried like, 10 times to send you pearls for it but for some reason I keep getting an invalid user error. :shifty: When they get it fixed, I owe ya 5. :highfive:

[seer]

In a way... we're not all that far apart seer. I agree that God knows. Our difference is in God's involvement of what He knows.

Your view of God is too "hands off" for me, and mine is too "hands on" for you.

It's not about being hands off or on Gb. It really comes down to the nature of love and relationship. I certainly do not want to sound P.C. but I don't think that Calvinists take into consideration what kind of loving fellowship God may desire. Is it all reduced to God exercsing power? Or does genuine love require a degree of freedom from both parties...

[yxboom]

I don't know how you can read Romans 10:9-17 any other way.

Michael
Romans 10 seems to me that Paul is contrasting the salvific call presented via direct revelation by the preaching of the Word to Israel (Rom 10:5-14). And the call through general revelation by the declaration of the heavens and earth to the unevangelized gentiles (Rom 10:15-21). the necessity was the believing by faith.

i believe

Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me."

seals the deal on this one.

[themuzicman]

Here's another way of reading it: in context.

Specifically in the context of Rom 10:18. Paul in Rom 10:9-17 has just given his opponents' argument, and responds in vs 18 with "But I say" and gives a Biblical quote that says all people everywhere know of God through his creation.

Only is Paul's opponent is scripture.

You should read the passages you're speaking about before speaking:

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; 13 for "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!" 16 However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report? " 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The highlighted sections are scripture quotations. SO, unless you think that Paul is refuting scripture, your "But I say" cannot be refuting 9-17.

Michael

[GoBahnsen]

It's not about being hands off or on Gb. It really comes down to the nature of love and relationship. I certainly do not want to sound P.C. but I don't think that Calvinists take into consideration what kind of loving fellowship God may desire. Is it all reduced to God exercsing power? Or does genuine love require a degree of freedom from both parties...Love is involved. I'm not a Calvinist by name and I think that some of them are too wooden when it comes to love and relationship. Just some of them, not the majority.

The thing is, we love BECAUSE He first loved us. And part of the demonstration of that love is the exercising of power. In your view, I think, the love is shown in the cross (I see that love too), but then it just get's left there.

In my view, not only is the love seen in the Cross, but the power that raised Christ from the dead and that power also raises the spiritually dead elect, to new life, thus they believe the Gospel. So yes, I do revel in God's demonstration of His love in Christ, but I respond according to His power which works in me both to will and to do according to His good pleasure.

I think you think too much in terms of human relationships. If a guy wants a girl for a wife he must win her heart. He has no real power like that of God's Spirit power, to bring her to see that he is right for her and then hope she chooses him. That's all creature to creature stuff.

God is a Creator. His love works with power to give new life to the dead, thus these love Him for that. I really think I'm hitting a nail on the head when I say, you and those like you, think of God too much like He is a fellow creature looking for love. He is not looking for love, He is love and He gives love first. If the Almighty sets His affection on you before the world begins, you will come to know it and you will be saved by it.

You on the other hand have God "finding out" who the cooperators will be, and then He responds accordingly. Creating the whole world in arrangement to accommodate these creatures who have made themselves qualified by their intrinsic cooperative spirit which they "willed" into existence. God then becomes the great cosmic responder to all these types. But God didn't make them that way in your view.

In reformed theology, these future cooperators are such by God's doing and THAT is what you will not have. It smacks of robot. And I have been thinking about this more and you're going to hate this, but I'll take a chance.

In a sense, all creatures are robots of some kind. Man made robots are crude and have no souls. Insects are robots to the max. Spiders robotically spin webs from the computer chip that God placed in them. We watch them spin and we give God the glory for His marvelous robot, the spider.

Animals are more complex robots and even possess emotion on some level. Humans are the ultimate robots, made in God's image. They are not like metal robots, but robots with spirits and souls, whatever those are. They come into this world evil. They fight against their maker by nature.

Some of these robots get cured, others are left defective, fit for destruction.
Don't like it? Tough. Oh...and these robots that get cured, they can love too, they are God's highest order of earthly creation. Robots with soul and spirit. Amazing creatures indeed. And God receives glory unto Himself through them and takes pleasure in having relationship with them. Oh great mystery of mysteries.

But what you want, I think, is that man be a god himself. And the big creator God, seeks relationship with these little creator gods. As if these have always existed and have something God wants from them, if only He can get it. They are autonomous and can give God something of value to God, because what they possess they created, in your view...this is what I think.

Do you see it? You have said God knew what you would pray billions of years ago and that mattered to God. You see right there, you set yourself up as a little eternal god who actually moves the hand of the big God. You, seer, created a thought or idea apart from God and God responds to it. You are a god. You are something outside of God. God wants in. God wants your love. You've got what God is after.

This is all so off base. God is the Creator of all things and the creature has nothing but what he has received from God. You give God nothing, but that which He has given you to give back to Him. You are not autonomous. You are a robot at some level. And creatures don't like to hear that. The Mormons really gave it the cure and express the true nature of the sinful creature, who wants to be a god himself. Having qualities, self created, that God then seeks to obtain for Himself. Can you see it?

This is a good post if I do so say myself. I wish some mod or admin would give a POTD. I haven't had a POTD in ages:lol: .

[yxboom]

In a sense, all creatures are robots of some kind. Man made robots are crude and have no souls. Insects are robots to the max. Spiders robotically spin webs from the computer chip that God placed in them. We watch them spin and we give God the glory for His marvelous robot, the spider.
eh. ive never heard God desiring a relationship based on reciprocity from a spider.

Animals are more complex robots and even possess emotion on some level. Humans are the ultimate robots, made in God's image. They are not like metal robots, but robots with spirits and souls, whatever those are. They come into this world evil. They fight against their maker by nature.

Some of these robots get cured, others are left defective, fit for destruction.
Don't like it? Tough. Oh...and these robots that get cured, they can love too, they are God's highest order of earthly creation. Robots with soul and spirit. Amazing creatures indeed. And God receives glory unto Himself through them and takes pleasure in having relationship with them. Oh great mystery of mysteries.
mankind, the robots are built to be defective and only some are "fixed". God incapable of producing properly functioning machines?


But what you want, I think, is that man be a god himself. And the big creator God, seeks relationship with these little creator gods. As if these have always existed and have something God wants from them, if only He can get it. They are autonomous and can give God something of value to God, because what they possess they created, in your view...this is what I think.
this alternate view doesnt have God creating defective machines.

[Spiderman&Co.]

...ive never heard God desiring a relationship based on reciprocity from a spider.

I'll try not to take that personally!

By the way, we are getting a little off point. The OP deals with those who have never heard the Gospel and how they are judged. Are they able to be saved by faith in the limited revelation that they have (Romans 1&2)??

[yxboom]

I'll try not to take that personally!
my bad.

[themuzicman]

Love is involved. I'm not a Calvinist by name and I think that some of them are too wooden when it comes to love and relationship. Just some of them, not the majority.

The thing is, we love BECAUSE He first loved us. And part of the demonstration of that love is the exercising of power. In your view, I think, the love is shown in the cross (I see that love too), but then it just get's left there.

In my view, not only is the love seen in the Cross, but the power that raised Christ from the dead and that power also raises the spiritually dead elect, to new life, thus they believe the Gospel. So yes, I do revel in God's demonstration of His love in Christ, but I respond according to His power which works in me both to will and to do according to His good pleasure.

I think you think too much in terms of human relationships. If a guy wants a girl for a wife he must win her heart. He has no real power like that of God's Spirit power, to bring her to see that he is right for her and then hope she chooses him. That's all creature to creature stuff.

God is a Creator. His love works with power to give new life to the dead, thus these love Him for that. I really think I'm hitting a nail on the head when I say, you and those like you, think of God too much like He is a fellow creature looking for love. He is not looking for love, He is love and He gives love first. If the Almighty sets His affection on you before the world begins, you will come to know it and you will be saved by it.

You on the other hand have God "finding out" who the cooperators will be, and then He responds accordingly. Creating the whole world in arrangement to accommodate these creatures who have made themselves qualified by their intrinsic cooperative spirit which they "willed" into existence. God then becomes the great cosmic responder to all these types. But God didn't make them that way in your view.

In reformed theology, these future cooperators are such by God's doing and THAT is what you will not have. It smacks of robot. And I have been thinking about this more and you're going to hate this, but I'll take a chance.

In a sense, all creatures are robots of some kind. Man made robots are crude and have no souls. Insects are robots to the max. Spiders robotically spin webs from the computer chip that God placed in them. We watch them spin and we give God the glory for His marvelous robot, the spider.

Animals are more complex robots and even possess emotion on some level. Humans are the ultimate robots, made in God's image. They are not like metal robots, but robots with spirits and souls, whatever those are. They come into this world evil. They fight against their maker by nature.

Some of these robots get cured, others are left defective, fit for destruction.
Don't like it? Tough. Oh...and these robots that get cured, they can love too, they are God's highest order of earthly creation. Robots with soul and spirit. Amazing creatures indeed. And God receives glory unto Himself through them and takes pleasure in having relationship with them. Oh great mystery of mysteries.

But what you want, I think, is that man be a god himself. And the big creator God, seeks relationship with these little creator gods. As if these have always existed and have something God wants from them, if only He can get it. They are autonomous and can give God something of value to God, because what they possess they created, in your view...this is what I think.

Do you see it? You have said God knew what you would pray billions of years ago and that mattered to God. You see right there, you set yourself up as a little eternal god who actually moves the hand of the big God. You, seer, created a thought or idea apart from God and God responds to it. You are a god. You are something outside of God. God wants in. God wants your love. You've got what God is after.

This is all so off base. God is the Creator of all things and the creature has nothing but what he has received from God. You give God nothing, but that which He has given you to give back to Him. You are not autonomous. You are a robot at some level. And creatures don't like to hear that. The Mormons really gave it the cure and express the true nature of the sinful creature, who wants to be a god himself. Having qualities, self created, that God then seeks to obtain for Himself. Can you see it?

This is a good post if I do so say myself. I wish some mod or admin would give a POTD. I haven't had a POTD in ages:lol: .
The only reason I would pick this post is that it admits what the oppnents of Calvinism have said all along, but that Calvinists have done their hardest to deny.

Michael

[GoBahnsen]

eh. ive never heard God desiring a relationship based on reciprocity from a spider. That makes two of us boom. But God gets glory from the spider. God gets love from men, but that love is not produced apart from God's own workmanship in them.


mankind, the robots are built to be defective and only some are "fixed". God incapable of producing properly functioning machines?
It's part of His plan is it not? The fall need not have rendered us evil at birth, had god so designed it that way. We could have all been born Pelagians and Pelagius thought we were. The Church has thought he was a heretic. We are defective robots because of sin, not God's failure.


this alternate view doesnt have God creating defective machines.
Granted, it downplays the effects of the fall

[Spiderman&Co.]

Again...can we try to stay on point?

[GoBahnsen]

The only reason I would pick this post is that it admits what the oppnents of Calvinism have said all along, but that Calvinists have done their hardest to deny.

MichaelPick it for that reason Michael, I don't care. I used to run from the Robot accusation, but to think ourselves not robots at some level is to deny our creaturely-ness. We are robots, but not like the ones humans make. We are moral robots as well. The only being in the universe that is not a robot is God, the rest are creatures with built in appetites that they cannot get rid of. I must eat or die. I must breathe or die. I'm restricted and programed a certain way, that's the robot part. I am not God or a god.

[GoBahnsen]

Again...can we try to stay on point?Yes, sorry man. Your thread...I kind of forgot.

[themuzicman]

Yes, sorry man. Your thread...I kind of forgot.
I started a thread for you here, GoB:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=61859

[Nang]

What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive.

No, there is not.

Those outside any knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be condemned for their failure to acknowledge God according to the natural law that abides in them. (Romans 2:12-16)





What about the many people alive today who will never hear a proper presentation of the Gospel? Can these people receive grace for salvation if they reach out to God in faith?

Unsaved men have no inherent faith in God to reach out with. Faith comes as a gift of God, to those whom God has elected to call unto salvation. (Romans 8:30)


A faith based on God's revelation in nature and in the world and even in their own hearts? See Romans 1 and 2 for the biblical thoughts on this subject.

Romans 1-3 teaches the opposite of what you try to suggest.

Natural law witnesses to the Creator, but it does not impart faith; therefore it only condemns men. Natural law leaves all men without excuse for their unbelief and sin.

Faith that can save the soul only comes by the grace of God. Not by exposure to nature.



My thought is that people will be judge according to the faith they have in the revelation available to them

Revelation of God that can save the soul, is the revelation of Holy Scriptures alone.


and that their knowledge will be completed in the next life when the cross of Christ is made known to them.


This is unbiblical and unorthodox.

Sorry, but I could not abide by your attempts to control response . . .

Nang

[Xmansmommy]

No, there is not.

Those outside any knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be condemned for their failure to acknowledge God according to the natural law that abides in them. (Romans 2:12-16)

So Paul's comments about their conscience either accusing or excusing them means exactly what Nang?

Unsaved men have no inherent faith in God to reach out with. Faith comes as a gift of God, to those whom God has elected to call unto salvation. (Romans 8:30)

Romans 1-3 teaches the opposite of what you try to suggest.

How do men hold the truth in unrighteousness?

Natural law witnesses to the Creator, but it does not impart faith; therefore it only condemns men. Natural law leaves all men without excuse for their unbelief and sin.

Actually Romans 1:20-21 tells us that they are without excuse not because they didn't have faith but because they didn't glorify Him nor show gratitude.

Faith that can save the soul only comes by the grace of God. Not by exposure to nature.

Then why does God hold them accountable for the evidence they find in nature?

Revelation of God that can save the soul, is the revelation of Holy Scriptures alone.

So, there is no hope for babies, mentally challenged or illiterate folks?

This is unbiblical and unorthodox.

Sorry, but I could not abide by your attempts to control response . . .

Nang

Yeah, but that wasn't really you exercising your freedom, it was God causing you to be rebellious. :wink:

[seer]

But what you want, I think, is that man be a god himself. And the big creator God, seeks relationship with these little creator gods. As if these have always existed and have something God wants from them, if only He can get it. They are autonomous and can give God something of value to God, because what they possess they created, in your view...this is what I think.

Do you see it? You have said God knew what you would pray billions of years ago and that mattered to God. You see right there, you set yourself up as a little eternal god who actually moves the hand of the big God. You, seer, created a thought or idea apart from God and God responds to it. You are a god. You are something outside of God. God wants in. God wants your love. You've got what God is after.


Yes, I actually do believe that we can give something to God that He values. Responsive love. That does not make me a god. It makes me a creature responding to his maker. No more and no less... And yes, God allows us to influence Him - He doesn't have too, but He does. And I suspect that He finds much more satisfaction in that process rather than merely pulling the strings of puppets.

[Nang]

So Paul's comments about their conscience either accusing or excusing them means exactly what Nang?


It means they will have no excuse on Judgment Day, for the work of the law written on their hearts leaves them with no excuse:

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20

What is inexcusable?

Even with this natural witness, they still "suppress the truth in unrighteousness." Romans 1:18



How do men hold the truth in unrighteousness?

By living in this world, while denying the Creator.



Actually Romans 1:20-21 tells us that they are without excuse not because they didn't have faith but because they didn't glorify Him nor show gratitude.

That's right.



Then why does God hold them accountable for the evidence they find in nature?

Their suppression and lack of belief in God, proves they are not called of God and not gifted with saving faith.



So, there is no hope for babies, mentally challenged or illiterate folks?

Well, now, you have changed the subject a bit, have you not?

The OP asked whether persons who have not been called by God through a preaching of the Gospel, can be saved for lack of hearing. I say no, because God apparently chooses not to call those people.

You cannot take my answer regarding uncalled souls and make it apply to all babies, mentally challenged, and illiterates.

That requires a different answer.

Nang

[Spiderman&Co.]

Hi Nang,

I find myself in agreement with you on most of your points. Just to clarify my position...I am not saying that salvation is found outside of grace through faith in Christ alone (3 of the 5 solas!). What I am asking is whether those who have not heard of Jesus Christ can still receive faith from God and receive grace because they see the evidence of God in nature and within themselves (i.e. God's "general" revelation), recognize their accountability before God, and repent of their lack of trust. When the full knowledge of Christ is revealed in the after-life then their knowledge and faith becomes complete and Christ's sacrifice will be sufficient for their sins.

Nang, it seems to me that you find yourself in the precarious position of affirming that men can be damned based upon an inappropriate response to general revelation but cannot be saved by an appropriate response to general revelation. I believe this position does not do justice to Paul's point in Romans 1-2.



This is unbiblical and unorthodox.

Sorry, but I could not abide by your attempts to control response . . .

Nang

That's ok. My OP was just a plea for intelligent conversation. You have not failed to deliver thoughtful objections and responses, and I appreciation that. Besides, it's your position that is the less biblical...in my opinion!

[Tercel]

Only is Paul's opponent is scripture.It's not necessarily a problem that Paul's opponents are quoting scripture - elsewhere Paul puts a scripture into the mouth of his opponent. But he happens not to be doing so here.

I meant that the opponents questions started at vs 14, where the questions start, and probably ends at 15a where that series of questions ends:
"But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent?"

If you think that Paul is not asking his opponents questions here you have some pretty serious explaining to do regarding why Paul isn't contradicting himself. In verse 18 he says "But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have for..." and quotes the Psalm that says every person in creation can know of God through creation. Care to explain how it is that Paul can assert both that people need to be told, and that people don't need to be told?

Clearly its his opponents that are suggesting everyone needs to be told in their series of questions to him, and Paul's response is that everyone knows of God already through creation. This is what Paul had already asserted at the beginning of his letter in chapter 1.

[Nang]

What I am asking is whether those who have not heard of Jesus Christ can still receive faith from God and receive grace because they see the evidence of God in nature and within themselves (i.e. God's "general" revelation), recognize their accountability before God, and repent of their lack of trust.

I do not believe this scenario to be possible because of the teaching of Romans 10:14-17, which teaches that faith comes by the hearing of the Gospel (The Holy Scriptures). Natural revelation cannot save, even though it condemns.

This is not to say that individuals within nations that are without hearing of the word, cannot be brought the Gospel through the miraculous workings of the Lord, who is able to move heaven and earth to get the truth to His elect. I have heard several missionary testimonies about this. People in the bush, never hearing of the Lord Jesus Christ, that appear prepared in circumstance, heart, and mind to believe the Gospel as soon as they hear it; converting immediately to the truth when it reaches them, revealing God has sanctified them unto the truth and provided them preachers of the Word in His good timing and providence.



Nang, it seems to me that you find yourself in the precarious position of affirming that men can be damned based upon an inappropriate response to general revelation but cannot be saved by an appropriate response to general revelation. I believe this position does not do justice to Paul's point in Romans 1-2.

The only response that evidences actual salvation is faith, and faith comes by hearing of the Word of God. Scripture does not teach faith comes because of human response of any kind, but rather, faith is a gift from God.

[Xmansmommy]

It means they will have no excuse on Judgment Day, for the work of the law written on their hearts leaves them with no excuse:

Let me ask your interpretation of Romans 2:15-16? More specifically, the part about the gentiles (who were the unelect) who have no law, who do the things contained in the law, which show the work of the law written upon their hearts and God judging their secrets which will either accuse or excuse them? You keep saying they are accused and without excuse but this passage says there is another option. How do you deal with that scripture Nang?

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20

What is inexcusable?

Even with this natural witness, they still "suppress the truth in unrighteousness." Romans 1:18

Yes they know the truth and suppress it in unrighteousness. What of those who acknowledge a Creator and seek to do good in life but never hear the gospel?

By living in this world, while denying the Creator.

Oh but the passage goes into much greater detail than this! They know the truth, they suppress it in unrighteousness, they don't glorify God, they weren't thankful, they became vain in their imaginations, they changed the image of God to that of His creation (man, birds, beasts and creeping things), they worshipped the creation more than the Creator, they fornicated, lusted, backbit, on and on and on....and you know what? Verse 31 tells us they knew the judgement of God. So I can contentedly say that it wasn't simple general revealation that caused them to be without excuse. And chapter 2 goes on to deal with those that didn't necessarily do those things...because verse 7 tells us that by well doing and they seek honor, glory and eternal life. Verse 10 - glory, honor and peace to every man who works good. The doers of the law are justified which ties into those that do good without the law as evidenced in verses 14-16. How do you address these very telling passages Nang?

That's right.

Their suppression and lack of belief in God, proves they are not called of God and not gifted with saving faith.

I refer you to Romans 1:18-32 again. It's quite a bit more than just a lack of belief Nang. At least admit that much. The scriptures are clear on it.

Well, now, you have changed the subject a bit, have you not?

I took your comments to their natural conclusion. Don't like it? Then perhaps you don't really mean what you said here...

Revelation of God that can save the soul, is the revelation of Holy Scriptures alone.

Or did you?

The OP asked whether persons who have not been called by God through a preaching of the Gospel, can be saved for lack of hearing. I say no, because God apparently chooses not to call those people.

You cannot take my answer regarding uncalled souls and make it apply to all babies, mentally challenged, and illiterates.

Again, I believe you did that with your above quote since babies, mentally challenged, and illiterates can't necessarily read or comprehend the revelation of the Holy Scriptures alone.

That requires a different answer.

Nang

By all means, I'm listening. :smile:

[Nang]

What of those who acknowledge a Creator and seek to do good in life but never hear the gospel?

In the same context, Paul concludes that no one, on their own volition, seeks God. (Romans 3:11)

Chapter One and Two can only be interpreted along with the truths revealed in Chapter Three, that declares the whole world has fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:19)

And chapter 2 goes on to deal with those that didn't necessarily do those things...because verse 7 tells us that by well doing and they seek honor, glory and eternal life.

This applies only to those who have been led to repentance by the goodness of God. (Romans 2:4)

The Gentiles "who show the work of the law" are persons outside of the law that reveal guilt nonetheless. For the work of the law is to reveal to men their sins. The work of the law is not salvation, for Paul also teaches:

"Therefore, by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

Romans 2:12-16 is not a passage one can easily ascertain, without reading every Scripture that pertains to salvation by faith alone. . .which is where Paul directly heads after the first three chapters.

Verse 10 - glory, honor and peace to every man who works good. The doers of the law are justified which ties into those that do good without the law as evidenced in verses 14-16. How do you address these very telling passages Nang?

You are confusing those people (elect of God) who are led to repentance as taught in Romans 2:4 with the Gentiles who live apart from God's Law in vss 12-16. These Gentiles may live an earthly life apart from knowledge of God's formal law, but the knowledge of good and evil was acquired by Adam, and thus resides in the hearts of even the most heathen. Of course, the knowledge of good and evil cannot save, but only condemn, for apart from the gift of faith, it is impossible for any man to please God. (Hebrews 11:6)



I refer you to Romans 1:18-32 again. It's quite a bit more than just a lack of belief Nang. At least admit that much. The scriptures are clear on it.

Lack of faith produces all these things.





Again, I believe you did that with your above quote since babies, mentally challenged, and illiterates can't necessarily read or comprehend the revelation of the Holy Scriptures alone.

There is nothing stopping babies, mentally retarded, or illiterates from ~hearing~ the gospel message (which is Holy Scripture taught) if God chooses to call and draw them to Himself.

A fetus can hear and comprehend gospel truth in the womb, as exemplified in John the Baptist, who lept for joy in his mother's womb when he heard about Jesus. (Luke 1:39-45).

When God calls His elect, they are given ears to hear. No matter the circumstance, age, or condition.

When men never hear the gospel, it is because God does not choose to call those souls to life and/or because God does not give them spiritual ears to hear or spiritual eyes to see.

Nang

[GoBahnsen]

But what you want, I think, is that man be a god himself. And the big creator God, seeks relationship with these little creator gods. As if these have always existed and have something God wants from them, if only He can get it. They are autonomous and can give God something of value to God, because what they possess they created, in your view...this is what I think.

Do you see it? You have said God knew what you would pray billions of years ago and that mattered to God. You see right there, you set yourself up as a little eternal god who actually moves the hand of the big God. You, seer, created a thought or idea apart from God and God responds to it. You are a god. You are something outside of God. God wants in. God wants your love. You've got what God is after.


Yes, I actually do believe that we can give something to God that He values. Responsive love. That does not make me a god. It makes me a creature responding to his maker. No more and no less... And yes, God allows us to influence Him - He doesn't have too, but He does. And I suspect that He finds much more satisfaction in that process rather than merely pulling the strings of puppets.It makes you a god in the "creator sense" if you came up with anything uncreated by God. It's hard for this philosopher to put it into convincing fashion, but nothing can exist outside of God. No thought or idea.

So many views of God, see God, as a being who has His universe, but there are other universes that have creatures, like man, and God seeks something from them.

Sort of like the gingerbread man offering his raisin buttons to the little girl who made him, he...thinking she desired raisins. And if we carry this out to our discussion, man's "will" or "love" is nothing more than those raisins. These qualities exist in God's created reality. Ultimately He is back of them.

What you all believe is that God created gods, but no...He created man, a creature and the creature cannot create...ultimately speaking. He only works with that which he has received.

John the Baptist did not create John the Baptist... the godly prophet, fore-runner of the Messiah. Your camp ought to say the opposite. Yet, you all have no real answer for this "puppetry" of God.

[seer]

It makes you a god in the "creator sense" if you came up with anything uncreated by God. It's hard for this philosopher to put it into convincing fashion, but nothing can exist outside of God. No thought or idea.

I did not create my ability to love or do good. That is God given. What man must do is to exercise, by God's grace, those abilities. Of course if you are correct Gb, then "sin" is as much a part of God as any other thing.

Sort of like the gingerbread man offering his raisin buttons to the little girl who made him, he...thinking she desired raisins. And if we carry this out to our discussion, man's "will" or "love" is nothing more than those raisins. These qualities exist in God's created reality. Ultimately He is back of them.

But it is still up to the gingerbread man to offer back what the little girl gave him.

What you all believe is that God created gods, but no...He created man, a creature and the creature cannot create...ultimately speaking. He only works with that which he has received.

No kidding. But let me ask you Gb, do you think that God is insecure? That He couldn't handle human freedom?

John the Baptist did not create John the Baptist... the godly prophet, fore-runner of the Messiah. Your camp ought to say the opposite. Yet, you all have no real answer for this "puppetry" of God.

God also chose King Saul - except his end was different - "It regreted Me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following Me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night."

[GoBahnsen]

Seer...I started to answer here, but realized that we're off topic, so I moved my answer to the robot thread.http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=1205411#post1205411 Post #62

[Spiderman&Co.]

The only response that evidences actual salvation is faith, and faith comes by hearing of the Word of God. Scripture does not teach faith comes because of human response of any kind, but rather, faith is a gift from God.

Nang, you state two things here: 1 - that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. And, 2 - that faith is a gift from God. But which is it? If a person hears the Word of God do they have faith? Of course not. So, what role does the "Word of God" play in the above scenario? It seems to me more accurate to say that "faith is a gift of God" rather than to say that "faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Would you not agree?

It seems to me that you may be confussing two theological discussions: a theology of general revelation and a theology of sovereign grace. In my opinion, God's sovereign grace can grant faith based on full revelation (as you and I have in the Scripture's) or based upon limited revelation (the creation, the inner sense of God, a sense of accountability to God, etc.). Why do you limit God's sovereign grace to only those who have access to a fulll revelation?

I do not believe this scenario to be possible because of the teaching of Romans 10:14-17, which teaches that faith comes by the hearing of the Gospel (The Holy Scriptures). Natural revelation cannot save, even though it condemns.

Nang, a couple of quick points here...First, please see my post #8 for my thoughts on Romans 10. I think you may be reading to much personal theology into this passage. This passage is in the midst of a discussion of what will happen to Israel. Paul does not seem to be addressing the issue of those who have not heard the Gospel. But he does this in Romans 1 and 2 where he clearly states that those who have limited revelation will be judged on this basis:
"14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)"

Second, it appears that you are saying that knowledge, itself has the ability to condemn or to save. It is not knowledge, in and of itself, that saves or condemns a person; it is the response to that knowledge that saves or condemns. I may be wrong in judging your position here, but it seems as though you are saying that God provided some general revelation for the purpose of using that knowledge to damn mankind. On the contrary, it appears from Acts 17 that God sovereignly created this world to make himself known "so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him."

24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

The question then comes back full circle: Does God not have the ability to save those who only have a general knowledge of Him through the creation, which literally screams out the name of its Creator? (Ps. 19) From Scripture, itself, it seems that the knowledge of God through the creation is as clear as the revelation written on the texts of Scripture.

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive. I am NOT asking whether there is salvation outside of Christ. This seems to me to be a clear biblical teaching. (I would refer you to a post on my blog if you doubt my sincerity about the exclusivity of the cross http://theosproject.blogspot.com/2005/09/strange-and-exclusive-claims-of-christ.html)

What about the many people alive today who will never hear a proper presentation of the Gospel? Can these people receive grace for salvation if they reach out to God in faith? A faith based on God's revelation in nature and in the world and even in their own hearts? See Romans 1 and 2 for the biblical thoughts on this subject. My thought is that people will be judge according to the faith they have in the revelation available to them and that their knowledge will be completed in the next life when the cross of Christ is made known to them.

Here are some links posted by another Tweber in a recent post. These are current intellectual and church leaders grappling with this issue:
William Lane Craig:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/bill...g-bradley1.html
Billy Graham and Schuller:
http://www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy52.htm
Rev. Osteen:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../03/lkl.01.html

And please, no "heresy" charges! Or, if you do use the H-Word, then please do so in an intellectual and thoughtful way: No hit-and-run accusations without substance! You people know who you are!What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive. I am NOT asking whether there is salvation outside of Christ. This seems to me to be a clear biblical teaching. (I would refer you to a post on my blog if you doubt my sincerity about the exclusivity of the cross http://theosproject.blogspot.com/2005/09/strange-and-exclusive-claims-of-christ.html)

I don't believe that scripture ever answers this question directly or exhaustively in such a way that would settle contemporary debates. Both inclusivists and exclusivists often resort to extrapolating from what the scriptures actually do say, framing their speculations accordingly. What is God's heart? What shall his Power accomplish? How deep is his grace?

When I read of Christ's declaration that he who is without sin should cast the first stone---and of his love that went beyond Law---I think that there are brighter possibilities than those of staunch exclusivism. Exclusivism represents the strictest application of God's grace via the most strident construction of Law and gospel; it tells us what is our due according to the gospel tightly considered. BUT though exclusivism indeed articulates what is our due, it may not be what we shall actually get! Grace may yet extend well beyond our strict construction of an exclusivist gospel in application---just as Christ's response to the woman went beyond the written code. And that's a good argument for inclusivism. Sometimes, Christ is portrayed as a kind of lawyer---a barrister who so conservatively interprets the code that the very woman under discussion would be stoned---and perhaps then damned. But that's not the impression I get from the story. I think there is warrant for hope that God's salvific power will extend much further than many tend to imagine....

[smaller]

When I read of Christ's declaration that he who is without sin should cast the first stone---and of his love that went beyond Law---I think that there are brighter possibilities than those of staunch exclusivism. Exclusivism represents the strictest application of God's grace via the most strident construction of Law and gospel; it tells us what is our due according to the gospel tightly considered. BUT though exclusivism indeed articulates what is our due, it may not be what we shall actually get! Grace may yet extend well beyond our strict construction of an exclusivist gospel in application---just as Christ's response to the woman went beyond the written code. And that's a good argument for inclusivism. Sometimes, Christ is portrayed as a kind of lawyer---a barrister who so conservatively interprets the code that the very woman under discussion would be stoned---and perhaps then damned. But that's not the impression I get from the story. I think there is warrant for hope that God's salvific power will extend much further than many tend to imagine....

Respond or not, your bolded observation is most correct.

Jesus did not lessen The Law in the case of this woman.

The sin in her was condemned by The Law, as it was by The Living Word of The Law, Jesus and she was STONED.

STONED at her the entrance to her city, the EARGATE, with the Truth of God's Living Word.

The woman as a child of God was forgiven and not held for the crimes of the sin the indwelt her.

The sin indwelling her flesh was commanded to sin no more. The reservation for eternal punishment remains for that thing.

We do not know the outcome, but I suspect it was driven out of her "temple" by the effect of His Direct Command that was totally in line with The Law, both letter of death to the sin, and agreement of Spirit in forgiveness and Love.

Both of God's intents with The Law were accomplished by The Living Mediator/Lawyer and He did so as Perfection should.

enjoy!

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[yxboom]

The question then comes back full circle: Does God not have the ability to save those who only have a general knowledge of Him through the creation, which literally screams out the name of its Creator? (Ps. 19) From Scripture, itself, it seems that the knowledge of God through the creation is as clear as the revelation written on the texts of Scripture.
very well said :thumb:

[betzerg]

What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive. I am NOT asking whether there is salvation outside of Christ. This seems to me to be a clear biblical teaching. (I would refer you to a post on my blog if you doubt my sincerity about the exclusivity of the cross http://theosproject.blogspot.com/2005/09/strange-and-exclusive-claims-of-christ.html)

What about the many people alive today who will never hear a proper presentation of the Gospel? Can these people receive grace for salvation if they reach out to God in faith? A faith based on God's revelation in nature and in the world and even in their own hearts? See Romans 1 and 2 for the biblical thoughts on this subject. My thought is that people will be judge according to the faith they have in the revelation available to them and that their knowledge will be completed in the next life when the cross of Christ is made known to them.

Here are some links posted by another Tweber in a recent post. These are current intellectual and church leaders grappling with this issue:
William Lane Craig:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/bill...g-bradley1.html
Billy Graham and Schuller:
http://www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy52.htm
Rev. Osteen:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../03/lkl.01.html

And please, no "heresy" charges! Or, if you do use the H-Word, then please do so in an intellectual and thoughtful way: No hit-and-run accusations without substance! You people know who you are!What I am wondering is whether there is grace for those who never hear of Jesus Christ while they are alive. I am NOT asking whether there is salvation outside of Christ. This seems to me to be a clear biblical teaching. (I would refer you to a post on my blog if you doubt my sincerity about the exclusivity of the cross http://theosproject.blogspot.com/2005/09/strange-and-exclusive-claims-of-christ.html)


Honestly...this entire issue has to do with the JUSTICE of G-d...HE is JUST, those who hear what is true and good and live according to what they know have a place in the world to come. "To whom much is GIVEN, much is requried". Those who hear the truth in a truthful way are responsible for what they do with truth. Those without the gospel will be judged according to Romans 1..."even nature itself"..teaches a certain "oughtness"...our humanity lets us understand that what is painful or wrong to happen to YOU, is wrong for you to do to others. G-d will judge all men with JUSTICE...we really don't have to figure it all out.

Shalom,

BETZER

[Xmansmommy]

In the same context, Paul concludes that no one, on their own volition, seeks God. (Romans 3:11)

Paul used the words "on their own volition" or is that something you imposed on the text? Paul quoted Psalms 14:2-3 and I believe he means it in the general sense, not explicitly. How do we explain none seeking God in light of the myriad of scripture between Psalm 14-Romans 3 which exhorted people to seek God as well as the evidence that many did?

Chapter One and Two can only be interpreted along with the truths revealed in Chapter Three, that declares the whole world has fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:19)

Yes we all have sinned.

This applies only to those who have been led to repentance by the goodness of God. (Romans 2:4)

I believe it applies to any man who judges others while being guilty of the very detestable things mentioned in Romans 1. Notice 2:1 don't say, thou are inexcusable O Elect! Rather it says, thou are inexcusable O man!

The Gentiles "who show the work of the law" are persons outside of the law that reveal guilt nonetheless. For the work of the law is to reveal to men their sins. The work of the law is not salvation, for Paul also teaches:

"Therefore, by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

Romans 2:12-16 is not a passage one can easily ascertain, without reading every Scripture that pertains to salvation by faith alone. . .which is where Paul directly heads after the first three chapters.

I've asked you to explain how any are found excused in Romans 2:15. As many as have sinned without the law are judged by the law. Are the hearers of the law justified or the doers? What are they justified by? Their conscience/well doing.

You are confusing those people (elect of God) who are led to repentance as taught in Romans 2:4 with the Gentiles who live apart from God's Law in vss 12-16.

I believe it's exhorting those that have understood that it's the goodness of God that leads any to repentance to make sure not to judge others because God will judge them based on the law written on their heart and by the secrets of their hearts.

These Gentiles may live an earthly life apart from knowledge of God's formal law, but the knowledge of good and evil was acquired by Adam, and thus resides in the hearts of even the most heathen. Of course, the knowledge of good and evil cannot save, but only condemn, for apart from the gift of faith, it is impossible for any man to please God. (Hebrews 11:6)

Nang, do you believe a person can have faith in God without knowing all the specifics? Hebrews 11:6 says a person must first believe there even is a God, then they have to believe that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Nothing said there about sin aquired from Adam etc. And what must they do? Dilligently seek Him. Thought no man does this? God says man can and must!

Lack of faith produces all these things.

Hardness of heart produces all these things not merely a lack of faith.

There is nothing stopping babies, mentally retarded, or illiterates from ~hearing~ the gospel message (which is Holy Scripture taught) if God chooses to call and draw them to Himself.

A fetus can hear and comprehend gospel truth in the womb, as exemplified in John the Baptist, who lept for joy in his mother's womb when he heard about Jesus. (Luke 1:39-45).

Perhaps the gospel was preached by Mary to Elisabeth, but I am not so intent on suggesting such since the scriptures don't clearly substantiate this. The babe leaped in the womb at the sound of Mary's voice. That's all we're told.

When God calls His elect, they are given ears to hear. No matter the circumstance, age, or condition.

I'll take that to mean that it's not adherence to the revelation of the Holy Scriptures alone, since many of those indicated can't read or comprehend the scriptures.

When men never hear the gospel, it is because God does not choose to call those souls to life and/or because God does not give them spiritual ears to hear or spiritual eyes to see.

Nang

That's easy for you to say since you're not living in a remote area of the world and you have heard the gospel.

[Nang]

Nang, you state two things here: 1 - that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. And, 2 - that faith is a gift from God. But which is it? If a person hears the Word of God do they have faith? Of course not. So, what role does the "Word of God" play in the above scenario? It seems to me more accurate to say that "faith is a gift of God" rather than to say that "faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Would you not agree?

Scripture says both. Faith is a gift, and the gift of faith comes by the hearing of the Word (Gospel message).

The Word of God, which is all about Jesus Christ, is God's means of saving souls. Paul taught that it is the Gospel message that has the power to save souls. (Romans 1:16)

Many hear the call of the Gospel, but only those already born again by the Spirit of God have a new heart and new spiritual ears to comprehend the message. (I Cor. 2:10-14)



It seems to me that you may be confussing two theological discussions: a theology of general revelation and a theology of sovereign grace. In my opinion, God's sovereign grace can grant faith based on full revelation (as you and I have in the Scripture's) or based upon limited revelation (the creation, the inner sense of God, a sense of accountability to God, etc.). Why do you limit God's sovereign grace to only those who have access to a fulll revelation?

Natural revelation only condemns. It takes the grace of God to save souls.

I do not limit God's sovereign grace to only those who have a full revelation, for then salvation would be the result of knowledge, and not of grace. One does not need to have a theological degree to have faith.

One must exhibit faith that confesses that God is:

". . For he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6


The question then comes back full circle: Does God not have the ability to save those who only have a general knowledge of Him through the creation, which literally screams out the name of its Creator? (Ps. 19) From Scripture, itself, it seems that the knowledge of God through the creation is as clear as the revelation written on the texts of Scripture.

If this were so, I would not know so many athiests.

I am not saying that an elect soul, living in a godless culture, might not respond spiritually by witnessing creation, before they hear the Gospel message and confess faith in Christ. But I truly believe these are sanctified by God's Spirit for salvation and are kept so that none of these die without eventually hearing the Gospel truth about Jesus Christ . . .some how, some way, if God has chosen them, even though circumstantially God has placed them in a dark place, God will provide them a preacher, and they will hear the Word of God, repent, believe, and thereby live anew.

For it is the Word of God (the Gospel) that has the power to save.

This is the truth that burns in the heart of every genuine missionary for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Nang
(Remembering the eunuch that Philip ministered to by teaching him the writings of Isaiah. Acts 8:27-39)

Nang

[Nang]

[quote]I've asked you to explain how any are found excused in Romans 2:15. As many as have sinned without the law are judged by the law. Are the hearers of the law justified or the doers? What are they justified by? Their conscience/well doing.


None are excused in the Romans 2:15 passage, according to Romans 1:20, and Romans 3:19. Paul would not contadict himself as you assume.

The key to this passage is who the "doers of the law" are. Paul teaches in the next chapter that "by the deeds of the law no flesh shall be justified in His sight." (Romans 3:20)

So that is the point. The only souls who could justify themselves, strictly according to inner conscience, would be those who manage to perfectly follow God's moral law in ignorance of that law. Of course, this is impossible for several reasons.

The most glaring impossibility is the notion that an ungodly native could keep God's law perfectly without sinning, even though he too inherited corruption from the original sin of his forefather, Adam, and thereby justifies himself . . .without a blood offering! This natural man is sinful because of the first Adam, and he cannot be justified apart from the blood of the last Adam. "For without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin." (Hebrews 9:22)

So Paul is teaching with a hypothetical, the impossibility that any man can justify himself through a good conscience; with or without knowledge of God's law. (Much the same teaching as Jesus telling the rich young ruler that, in order to be saved, he must obey all the Law and give away all his wealth to the poor, which was impossible for the rich man to do. It was a hypothetical teaching of impossibility that Jesus disclosed in His answer, as well as a contrast to His own Person, who did these exact things to please the Father. Jesus put aside His heavenly riches to come as a Man, and Jesus followed all the Law to work salvation in order to vicariously do what God says men ~should~ do to be saved. Mark 10:17-27)

Persons who do not know the Scriptures, or who have never heard of Jesus Christ, do have inner knowledge of good and evil because of Adam's partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They do have conscience and they do exhibit guilt, for they "show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" of guilt. They, in ignorance might accuse themselves at times of being bad, and they might excuse themselves often of doing right, but it will not count, for man does not judge himself, but in the end man will be judged by God.

"In the day when God will jduge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel." Romans 2:16

Every soul will be compared to the perfect Man, Jesus Christ, and all will come up lacking, for all men are sinners and cannot compare to the sinless One.

Only those who have been chosen by God to hear the Gospel call, and are saved by the grace of God which imputed Christ's righteousness to their account, and gave the gift of faith to believe in the vicarious death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, will stand justified before God on that Day. And the only basis for that justification and imputation will be the blood offering Jesus Christ presented to the Father to make propitiation for the sins of the those the Father gave Him to die for.




Nang, do you believe a person can have faith in God without knowing all the specifics?

I believe that if God has chosen a person unto salvation who lives in an ungodly circumstance, that God can sanctify that person unto belief through His Holy Spirit. But that person will in his lifetime, eventually hear the Gospel message in order to receive saving faith. Is this person justified of his sins, while in ignorance? I say yes, only because the Father has chosen the justified before the foundation of the world, and the Son already has justified all His people despite the era in which they are born into this world. Bringing the Gospel and activating life and faith in these is the work of the Holy Spirit, and He cannot fail to reveal justification to every soul the Father chose and the Son died for.





Hebrews 11:6 says a person must first believe there even is a God, then they have to believe that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Nothing said there about sin aquired from Adam etc. And what must they do? Dilligently seek Him. Thought no man does this? God says man can and must!

Diligently seeking God is a work of faith that has already been gifted.


Nang