Holy Spirit / NT Prophecy

[Act9_12Out]

One of the criticisms of the Open View is the apparent lack of proof texts in the New Testament.

I would like to offer an example of New Testament Prophecy, made by the Holy Spirit, that was not accurate. In my opinion, this helps to confirm the OV.

Come, let us reason together...

Acts 21 opens with Luke's records of their travels. After staying in Ptolemais for one day, Paul and his companions depart and head for Caesarea. They stay with Philip the evangelist and his four virgin daughters.
Acts 21
8 On the next day we who were Paul's companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him.
9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied.
After "many days," a certain prophet named Agabus came from Judea and visited them in Philip's home.
Acts 21
10 And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.
The Holy Spirit prophecies through Agabus concerning Paul's fate.
Acts 21
11 When he had come to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, 'So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.' "
The Holy Spirit (whom all would agree is God) prophecies that Paul will go to Jerusalem, be bound by the Jews, and handed over to the Romans. Paul's companions seem to be staunch supporters of the Open View, because they try to persuade Paul from going to Jerusalem.
Acts 21
12 Now when we heard these things, both we and those from that place pleaded with him not to go up to Jerusalem.
These men seem to believe that Paul can affect the prophecy put forth by the Holy Spirit. Paul's companions do not look at this prophecy as certain (or necessary, or pre-written history), but rather what will happen to Paul if he travels to Jerusalem. Paul states that he is not only ready to be bound, but "is ready to die" in Jerusalem.
Acts 21
13 Then Paul answered, "What do you mean by weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus."
When Paul would not be persuaded, Paul's companions desire the will of the Lord to be done.
Acts 21
14 So when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, "The will of the Lord be done."

Paul and his companions travel to Jerusalem, bring disciples from Caesarea, and a certain Mnason of Cyprus, an early disciple, with whom they were to lodge (vv 15,16). When they arrived in Jerusalem, the brethern received them gladly. Paul greets James and the elders of the Jerusalem church and conveys the wonderful things God has done through his ministry (vv 17-19). The elders seem to question Paul and the content of his teachings. They are concerned because the Jews in Jerusalem believe Paul is preaching contrary to their law by saying Paul teaches all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. The elders mention that the assembly will be concerned with Paul's presence. To protect Paul, the elders of the church ask Paul to pay the expenses of four men who have taken a vow. Paul takes the men, pays their expenses and is purified with them (vv 21-26). Now, back to the Holy Spirit's prophecy...

Jews from Asia saw Paul in the temple and "stirred up the crowd..." The Jews from Asia lie to the crowd to get them to seize Paul. The crowd laid hands on him.

So far so good... The Holy Spirit prophecied that Paul would go to Jerusalem and be bound by the Jews.
Acts 21
27 Now when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him,
28 crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."
29 (For they had previously* seen Trophimus the Ephesian with him in the city, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
The people drag Paul out of the temple and begin to beat him.
Acts 21
30 And all the city was disturbed; and the people ran together, seized Paul, and dragged him out of the temple; and immediately the doors were shut.

As the Jews were "seeking to kill" Paul, the commander of the garrison gets word that Paul is being beaten by the Jews. He sends soldiers and centurions to rescue Paul.
Acts 21
31 Now as they were seeking to kill him, news came to the commander of the garrison that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.
32 He immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down to them. And when they saw the commander and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.
33 Then the commander came near and took him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains; and he asked who he was and what he had done.
The Holy Spirit prophecied that the Jews would bind Paul and hand him over to the Romans. The reality of the situation is, Paul was dragged and beaten by the Jews, and rescued by the Romans. The Jews were trying to beat Paul to death and kill him. They had no intention of "handing him over" to the Romans. In Acts 22:30, Paul is released by the Romans. This prophecy never came to pass...

God Bless,
--Jeremy Finkenbinder

[brother vinny]

Welcome back, Jeremy!

[Amazing Rando]

Welcome back, Jeremy!

Speaking of which, did you ever explain why you weren't Acts 9 dispensationalist anymore? (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=13662&page=1&pp=16)

:wink:

[brother vinny]

Speaking of which, did you ever explain why you weren't Acts 9 dispensationalist anymore? (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=13662&page=1&pp=16)

:wink:

:rock:

[Amazing Rando]

:lol: Inquiring minds want to know. :eek:

[brother vinny]

:lol: Inquiring minds want to know. :eek:

Well, he never explained his model of canonicity, but I suppose that's now neither here nor there.

If he really wants an explanation, I'll PM him with it. It would be too much of a sidetrack from the thread here, though.

[Arnold]

Paul's companions seem to be staunch supporters of the Open View, because they try to persuade Paul from going to Jerusalem.:lol:

[Ormly]

The Holy Spirit prophecied that the Jews would bind Paul and hand him over to the Romans. The reality of the situation is, Paul was dragged and beaten by the Jews, and rescued by the Romans. The Jews were trying to beat Paul to death and kill him. They had no intention of "handing him over" to the Romans. In Acts 22:30, Paul is released by the Romans. This prophecy never came to pass...

God Bless,
--Jeremy Finkenbinder

Assuming this was the incident where the Jews were to hand him over then your conclusion would be correct..... but it isn't.

[Bill the Cat]

Assuming this was the incident where the Jews were to hand him over then your conclusion would be correct..... but it isn't.
Please expand here Orm...

Thanks

[Ormly]

Please expand here Orm...

Thanks

In a nutshell: There could have been more instances as this one before some Jewish group finally hands him over. The prophecy never mentions the events of the attempts on his life before the one it speaks of comes to past..

[lee_merrill]

Hi Jeremy,

Greetings from an erstwhile TOL-lander...

These men seem to believe that Paul can affect the prophecy put forth by the Holy Spirit.
Then if we hear of God's plan, and don't like it, we should try and change it? Can we think we know better than God?

We should try and thwart any plan God has that we disagree with?!

Paul's companions do not look at this prophecy as certain (or necessary, or pre-written history), but rather what will happen to Paul if he travels to Jerusalem. Paul states that he is not only ready to be bound, but "is ready to die" in Jerusalem.
Well, yes, so there was an implied condition, that does seem to be the appropriate interpretation here.

When Paul would not be persuaded, Paul's companions desire the will of the Lord to be done.
Are you implying that they did not desire the will of the Lord before Paul refused, though? Surely they were saying "As always, and in everything, the will of the Lord be done." They were saying what they were trying to do all along, the Lord's will, regardless of how Paul chose, not "Now that Paul will go to Jerusalem regardless, we have decided to choose God's plan here in this situation."

The Holy Spirit prophecied that the Jews would bind Paul and hand him over to the Romans. The reality of the situation is, Paul was dragged and beaten by the Jews, and rescued by the Romans.
But they must have handed him over when the soldiers arrived, they had him in their grasp, and then they gave him up to the soldiers. So the prophecy was fulfilled, after the condition of Paul travelling there was met.

Blessings to you, too,
Lee

[brother vinny]

Psst. Ixnay on the Oltay!

[lee_merrill]

Psst. Ixnay on the Oltay!
Did you know that TheologyWeb is a naughty word in TOL-ville? It gets bleeped...

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. So does "TWeb"! Oops, that could be using a four-letter word...

[Act9_12Out]

Welcome back, Jeremy!

Thanks Vinny! :teeth: Good to be back...
If he really wants an explanation, I'll PM him with it. It would be too much of a sidetrack from the thread here, though.

Yes, I would like that. Please feel free to IM me. I really would like to see what issues you've had. If you'd like to discuss those issues, great. If not, I'd still like to examine your reasoning.

God Bless,
--Jeremy

[Act9_12Out]

Assuming this was the incident where the Jews were to hand him over then your conclusion would be correct..... but it isn't.

In a nutshell: There could have been more instances as this one before some Jewish group finally hands him over. The prophecy never mentions the events of the attempts on his life before the one it speaks of comes to past..

Ormly,

If my conclusion concerning the Holy Spirit's prophecy is incorrect, then the burden of proof is now on you to show what you've stated (bold emphasis above). Agabus makes the prophecy in Acts 21, and I draw my conclusions from the immediate context.

Please show me in the Bible (chronologically after Acts 21) where:

1. Paul was bound by the Jews
2. Paul was turned over to the Romans (or any gentile group for that matter)

Acts 21 is the closest example we have. The Jews did not intend to bind and turn Paul over as the Holy Spirit prophecied, but rather, the Jews "were seeking to kill (Paul)..." (Acts 21:31).

God Bless,
--Jeremy

[Act9_12Out]

Then if we hear of God's plan, and don't like it, we should try and change it? Can we think we know better than God?

We should try and thwart any plan God has that we disagree with?!

Lee,

Don't seek to kill the messenger. :lol: You are forced to deal with the passage. Do you disagree that Paul's companions were trying to persuade him not to go to Jerusalem?

Acts 21
12 Now when we heard these things, both we and those from that place pleaded with him not to go up to Jerusalem.

You continue,

Well, yes, so there was an implied condition, that does seem to be the appropriate interpretation here.

Glad we agree. However, consider the ramifications of your statement... If there is a true "condition" here, then it was possible for Paul to refuse to go to Jerusalem, and the prophecy never be fulfilled.

Are you implying that they did not desire the will of the Lord before Paul refused, though? Surely they were saying "As always, and in everything, the will of the Lord be done." They were saying what they were trying to do all along, the Lord's will, regardless of how Paul chose, not "Now that Paul will go to Jerusalem regardless, we have decided to choose God's plan here in this situation."

I just quoted the verse. They tried to convince Paul not to go to Jerusalem. When Paul said he was going anyway, they replied,

Acts 21
14 So when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, "The will of the Lord be done."

Please read the verse Lee. When Paul would not be persuaded, they say, "The will of the Lord be done." They "ceased" trying to persuade Paul from not going to Jerusalem and fulfilling the prophecy. They were trying to persuade Paul from fulfilling the prophecy as the Holy Spirit stated it, thus rejecting God's will.

But they must have handed him over when the soldiers arrived, they had him in their grasp, and then they gave him up to the soldiers. So the prophecy was fulfilled, after the condition of Paul travelling there was met.

No Lee, this is your opinion. The text is clear. They did not desire to "turn Paul over" to the Romans. They desired to kill him.

Acts 21
31 Now as they were seeking to kill him, news came to the commander of the garrison that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.

You conclusion fails in the following verses as well. You say the Jews "gave Paul up to the soldiers..." This is not the case. When the soldiers arrive, they stop beating him. The commander "came near and took him..." The Jews did not "give him up..." as you say.
Acts 21
32 He immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down to them. And when they saw the commander and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.
33 Then the commander came near and took him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains; and he asked who he was and what he had done.

This is a killer for the Closed View. The Holy Spirit prophecies, and the prophecy never came to pass.

God Bless,
--Jeremy

[Arnold]

But they must have handed him over when the soldiers arrived, they had him in their grasp, and then they gave him up to the soldiers. So the prophecy was fulfilled, after the condition of Paul travelling there was met.

Acts 21:31-32 While they were trying to kill him, news reached the commander of the Roman troops that the whole city of Jerusalem was in an uproar. 32He at once took some officers and soldiers and ran down to the crowd. When the rioters saw the commander and his soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.

Acts 23:27 This man was seized by the Jews and they were about to kill him, but I came with my troops and rescued him

Neither of these passages describe what you contend. It seems the soldiers had to rescue Paul from certain death. There is no evidence that the Jews "handed him over" as stated in the prophesy.

[brother vinny]

What if the Jews handed Paul over after the book of Acts concluded?

[Act9_12Out]

What if the Jews handed Paul over after the book of Acts concluded?

Vinny,

That's a huge "if" you suggest. Why not deal with the immediate context? If what you say is true, could you provide Biblical or historical evidence? Paul wrote many of his books after the chronological close of Acts. If this were true, why wouldn't he reference this event from prison?

Thanks,
--Jeremy

[lee_merrill]

Hi Jeremy,

Lee: We should try and thwart any plan God has that we disagree with?!

Jeremy: You are forced to deal with the passage. Do you disagree that Paul's companions were trying to persuade him not to go to Jerusalem?
I agree they were trying to persuade him, for there was (as we do agree) an implied condition. I disagree with the conclusion from this that we can try and thwart any plan God has that we find unacceptable.

2 Corinthians 2:9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.

Which must imply obedient in all of God's directions to us.

Jeremy: However, consider the ramifications of your statement... If there is a true "condition" here, then it was possible for Paul to refuse to go to Jerusalem, and the prophecy never be fulfilled.
Or the condition might have been from their perspective! If God makes statements that reference possibilities, that doesn't mean he doesn't know what will happen.

John 6:5-6 When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?" He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

Jeremy: When Paul would not be persuaded, they say, "The will of the Lord be done."
But this does not imply that they were opposing the will of God before this statement! This could well be a statement of what they were seeking all along, and even a way of gently rebuking Paul, which I believe it was, seeing that he had been forbidden to go there just before this:

Acts 21:4 Through the Spirit they urged Paul not to go on to Jerusalem.

So I think Paul was in the wrong here, and was being chided.

Jeremy: The text is clear. They did not desire to "turn Paul over" to the Romans. They desired to kill him.
You can, however, turn over your car to a robber, even when you want to keep it.

When the soldiers arrive, they stop beating him. The commander "came near and took him..." The Jews did not "give him up..." as you say.
I hold that they handed him over unwillingly, though. The motive was not in the prophecy.

This is a killer for the Closed View. The Holy Spirit prophecies, and the prophecy never came to pass.
Then we will need to know how far this extends...

Isaiah 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'

This also may not happen? Perhaps not all will choose to swear allegiance? They have free will, so even if God swears by himself, it is not certain...

Blessings,
Lee

[yxboom]

here we go with the "implied condition". just like the implied condition in the prophecy of Hezekiah's death.

[Amazing Rando]

What if the Jews handed Paul over after the book of Acts concluded?

He was in Roman custody at the end of his life- Paul met with execution at the hands of the Romans in around AD 65-66 or so.

[Act9_12Out]

Vinny & Rando,

Here are the facts... The Holy Spirit was very clear with His prophecy... The Holy Spirit said:

1. Paul would be bound by the Jews

2. Paul would be delivered to the Romans by the Jews.

The reality of the situation is as follows:

1. Paul was not bound by the Jews, he was seized and almost killed. Paul was actually "bound" by the Romans with chains...

2. Paul was rescued from the Jews by the Romans...

This prophecy never came to pass...

God Bless,
--Jeremy

[Act9_12Out]

I agree they were trying to persuade him, for there was (as we do agree) an implied condition. I disagree with the conclusion from this that we can try and thwart any plan God has that we find unacceptable.

Are you implying that it was "acceptable" for Paul to be bound by the Jews and delivered to the Romans? I think a more viable explaination would be that the Holy Spirit based His prophecy on present knowledge. If Paul would have "presently" been in Jerusalem when the Holy Spirit prophecied, the Jews most definitely would have "bound Paul and turned him over tothe Jews."

Acts 21 clearly shows us that circumstances changed. The Jews from Asia "stirredup the crowd" and they seized Paul and beat him. They were intending tokill him. I find it interesting that you imply that God's "will" cannot be thwarted. I think you are arguing semantics here... You offer the following as a proof text...

2 Corinthians 2:9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.

Which must imply obedient in all of God's directions to us.

First off, you have yet to prove that Paul was "being obedient" by submitting himself to the seizing and beating (almost to death). Secondly, there are instances where God's will was thwarted, and even Christians thwart God's will in specific areas today.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

The Pharisees and lawyers rejected God's will. Christians reject God's willon a daily basis (unfortunately).

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;

Unfortunately, even in the Christian community, there is sexual immorality. Even though "God wills" that Christians abstain... You continue,

Or the condition might have been from their perspective! If God makes statements that reference possibilities, that doesn't mean he doesn't know what will happen.

Of course it does. That's the basic understanding of contrary choice. God gives us choices / possibilities, and is powerful enough to handle whatever we might choose. There is much more to say on this, but I want to stay on topic...

[lee: John 6:5-6 When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?" He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.[/quote]

This does not imply knowledge of an unknowable future. This is Jesus' example of perfect present knowledge of a situation. You continue,

[quiote]But this does not imply that they were opposing the will of God before this statement! This could well be a statement of what they were seeking all along, and even a way of gently rebuking Paul, which I believe it was, seeing that he had been forbidden to go there just before this:

Acts 21:4 Through the Spirit they urged Paul not to go on to Jerusalem.

So I think Paul was in the wrong here, and was being chided.[/quote]

Sorry, but your version does not compute... The disciples in Acts 21:4 "told Paul through the Spirit not to go to Jerusalem." Why? Because of the Holy Spirit's present knowledge of the Jew's intentions in Jerusalem. The Holy Spirit clarifies why the disciples did not want Paul to go through Agabus. Paul should not go to Jerusalem because he would be bound and turned over to the Romans. However, you imply that since the Holy Spirit prophecied what would happen in Jerusalem, then Paul had to go to fulfill prophecy.

The reason your version does not compute is because Acts 21:4 tell us the Spirit informed the disciples to tell Paul not to go. Then you imply that Agabus' prophecy implies that Paul must go. You make the Holy Spirit contradict Himself.

"Paul, don't go..." Acts 21:4
"Paul you have to go..." Acts 21:11

You continue,

You can, however, turn over your car to a robber, even when you want to keep it.

This is a strawman... The Jews were trying to kill Paul. If you were beating your car with a sledgehammer, then I doubt that a robber would "take" your car, thus turning it over... Apples and Oranges brother...

I hold that they handed him over unwillingly, though. The motive was not in the prophecy.

Agreed. However, the prophecy failed in at least two places...

1. Paul was to be bound by the Jews...

Paul was actually "bound" by the Romans with chains...

2. Paul was to be given over to the Romans...

Paul was rescued by the Romans...

Isaiah 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'

This also may not happen? Perhaps not all will choose to swear allegiance? They have free will, so even if God swears by himself, it is not certain...

Blessings,
Lee

Lee, you're the one wo wants to re-write the prophecy... I could use your same argument... Since Paul was "handed over" to the Romans by the Jews, (even though he was rescued), I would ask, why not interpret Isaiah 45:23 differently as well?

God Bless,
--Jeremy

[Arnold]

The reason your version does not compute is because Acts 21:4 tell us the Spirit informed the disciples to tell Paul not to go. Then you imply that Agabus' prophecy implies that Paul must go. You make the Holy Spirit contradict Himself.

"Paul, don't go..." Acts 21:4
"Paul you have to go..." Acts 21:11

ZING! (using the currently popular vernacular)

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

... here we go with the "implied condition". just like the implied condition in the prophecy of Hezekiah's death.
Yxboom doesn't believe in implied conditions! The Ninevites did, and as it turns out, they were correct. And I don't hold that there was an implied condition with Hezekiah, I hold that he died (to self) in a good way, and not in a bad way (i.e. physically).

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live...

Well, it's die one way or the other, for those who follow God, the cross has always been part of God's plan, for people to carry, and this is not simply an ornament.

Lee: I agree they were trying to persuade him, for there was (as we do agree) an implied condition. I disagree with the conclusion from this that we can try and thwart any plan God has that we find unacceptable.

Jeremy: Are you implying that it was "acceptable" for Paul to be bound by the Jews and delivered to the Romans?
No, I am (more than) implying that it's unacceptable to try and thwart God's plan, in any instance.

Acts 11:17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?

Which rather clearly implies we should not do this.

Jeremy: I think a more viable explanation would be that the Holy Spirit based His prophecy on present knowledge.
Then what else is subject to such fluctuations?

Isaiah 65:17 Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth.

This is a present intent, which may not turn out?

Isaiah 65:19 ... the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.

This also may change? This is the problem with the Open View, this opens a Pandora's box, and not prophecy, and thus no promise is firm, that depends in any way on human will. And even if God sometimes chooses to make a prophecy or a promise sure and certain, how are we to know which ones these are?

2 Corinthians 2:9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.

Lee: Which must imply obedient in all of God's directions to us.

Jeremy: First off, you have yet to prove that Paul was "being obedient" by submitting himself to the seizing and beating (almost to death).
But what does Paul's decision when he was attacked have to do with explaining 2 Cor. 2:9? He might have been obeying, or he might not have, but this verse in 2 Cor. implies most definitely that we must be obedient in everything, that is "the test" Paul mentions here, implying not to do this is to fail.

Jeremy: Secondly, there are instances where God's will was thwarted, and even Christians thwart God's will in specific areas today.
That does not mean we should not always be obedient, though! Just because people disobey, that does not mean it's fine to disobey.

Jeremy: This does not imply knowledge of an unknowable future. This is Jesus' example of perfect present knowledge of a situation.
But Jesus makes a statement to Andrew which presents a question about possibilities ("where will we get food?") and yet Jesus knew what he was about to do, that is my reply to an interpretation that says when God speaks of possibilities, the future is open. It need not be so, and here we have an example.

Lee: So I think Paul was in the wrong here, and was being chided [in Acts 21:14].

Jeremy: The reason your version does not compute is because Acts 21:4 tell us the Spirit informed the disciples to tell Paul not to go. Then you imply that Agabus' prophecy implies that Paul must go.
Didn't we just say there was an implied condition in Agabus' prophecy, though?

Lee: You can, however, turn over your car to a robber, even when you want to keep it.

Jeremy: If you were beating your car with a sledgehammer, then I doubt that a robber would "take" your car, thus turning it over...
No, I meant that people do turn over what they want to have in their control, unwillingly, sometimes.

However, the prophecy failed in at least two places...

1. Paul was to be bound by the Jews...

Paul was actually "bound" by the Romans with chains...

2. Paul was to be given over to the Romans...

Paul was rescued by the Romans...
Well, I think my interpretation still holds, as far as the second point, the Jews handed Paul over unwillingly. As far as the first point, did Herod really escort John the Baptist to jail, and put him in a cell himself? Yet he "put John in prison" (Lk. 3:20).

Jeremy: Since Paul was "handed over" to the Romans by the Jews, (even though he was rescued), I would ask, why not interpret Isaiah 45:23 differently as well?

Isaiah 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'

But I don't think "swear allegiance" can be taken unwillingly, it implies consent of the will, though "hand over a person" need not imply this.

Blessings,
Lee