For Calvinists:Speaking In Parables

[seer]

Mark 4:11,12

And Jesus said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and their sins be forgiven."

This is the judgement spoken of by Isaiah. A judgement according to Isaiah for Israel's rebellion - past and future. The Arminian has no problem with this - "for what little they have, even that will be taken away.."

The question is: why would Christ need to veil His message in parables when dealing with the totally depraved? He says that He was speaking in parables so that they would not turn and have their sins forgiven. If T.D. is true - why are parables necessary?

[Anoetos]

Mark 4:11,12

And Jesus said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and their sins be forgiven."

This is the judgement spoken of by Isaiah. A judgement according to Isaiah for Israel's rebellion - past and future. The Arminian has no problem with this - "for what little they have, even that will be taken away.."

The Monergist has no problem with it either since the effective means by which the Word bears salvation to the hearer is the will of God acting, in that Word, on the hearer.

This comes right after Jesus gives the parable of the sower. It is, really, a marvellously clear presentation of the two-fold nature of the Gospel proclamation. To those appointed to believe it brings life and salvation, but to the reprobate only death and condemnation.

The passage from Isaiah clearly indicates that it is God's will that the reprobate hear the message of Grace and not understand, not repent and be forgiven.

The question is: why would Christ need to veil His message in parables when dealing with the totally depraved? He says that He was speaking in parables so that they would not turn and have their sins forgiven. If T.D. is true - why are parables necessary?

Because the elect receive and understand the parables while the non-elect cannot and will not. They hear the same message as we do but the effect is different, we "have been given the secret of the kingdom of God". They have not.

[GoBahnsen]

The Monergist has no problem with it either since the effective means by which the Word bears salvation to the hearer is the will of God acting, in that Word, on the hearer.

This comes right after Jesus gives the parable of the sower. It is, really, a marvellously clear presentation of the two-fold nature of the Gospel proclamation. To those appointed to believe it brings life and salvation, but to the reprobate only death and condemnation.

The passage from Isaiah clearly indicates that it is God's will that the reprobate hear the message of Grace and not understand, not repent and be forgiven.



Because the elect receive and understand the parables while the non-elect cannot and will not. They hear the same message as we do but the effect is different, we "have been given the secret of the kingdom of God". They have not.Nice answer. It's hard, but tis of God.

I'm not sure why seer is even bringing this up. It doesn't bode well for the "God loves everyone and wants them all in heaven with Him" mindset. Here we find a hard thing, God hiding the message of truth lest the hearer repent! Huh? And in another place we find that God Himself sends the people strong delusion, so that they will believe the lie.

Granted, they did not have the love of the truth in them, but one might think that God, who supposedly loves them very much, dying for them on a cross (in the Arminian scheme), might try to win them into becoming lovers of the truth, instead of sending them delusion. What gives, all of you softies out there?

[seer]

Because the elect receive and understand the parables while the non-elect cannot and will not. They hear the same message as we do but the effect is different, we "have been given the secret of the kingdom of God". They have not.

Christ said that He spoke in parables so that they would not turn and be forgiven. So again, the question is - why did Christ need to veil His message.

[seer]

Nice answer. It's hard, but tis of God.

I'm not sure why seer is even bringing this up. It doesn't bode well for the "God loves everyone and wants them all in heaven with Him" mindset. Here we find a hard thing, God hiding the message of truth lest the hearer repent! Huh? And in another place we find that God Himself sends the people strong delusion, so that they will believe the lie.

Granted, they did not have the love of the truth in them, but one might think that God, who supposedly loves them very much, dying for them on a cross (in the Arminian scheme), might try to win them into becoming lovers of the truth, instead of sending them delusion. What gives, all of you softies out there?

I have no problem with judgement Gb, do you - especially since the Jews had every possible advantage...

[Xmansmommy]

Nice answer. It's hard, but tis of God.

I'm not sure why seer is even bringing this up. It doesn't bode well for the "God loves everyone and wants them all in heaven with Him" mindset. Here we find a hard thing, God hiding the message of truth lest the hearer repent! Huh? And in another place we find that God Himself sends the people strong delusion, so that they will believe the lie.

Granted, they did not have the love of the truth in them, but one might think that God, who supposedly loves them very much, dying for them on a cross (in the Arminian scheme), might try to win them into becoming lovers of the truth, instead of sending them delusion. What gives, all of you softies out there?

God loves them and does seek to bring them to Himself. But God also gets fed up and turns those who have hardened their heart beyond repair, over to reprobation.

Seer, if God choose to clearly show humanity the Truth in terms that were undeniable, it wouldn't give opportunity for God to help that truth to take root and produce fruit. He does know the condition of their hearts and knows that some would hear and believe, some would hear and fall away and some would hear and disbelieve. But He chose not to reveal things in this fashion becasue He is looking to see which ones would take root. :smile:

[lee_merrill]

Christ said that He spoke in parables so that they would not turn and be forgiven. So again, the question is - why did Christ need to veil His message.
Well, God's word is in the world! Which has power to save people:

James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

So God acting to prevent repentance need not imply an ability on the part of man, here...

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

Well, God's word is in the world! Which has power to save people:

James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

So God acting to prevent repentance need not imply an ability on the part of man, here...

So you are saying that all the T.D. have to do is hear the word of God and they can be saved?

[lee_merrill]

So you are saying that all the T.D. have to do is hear the word of God and they can be saved?
Yes! Doesn't Scripture say that?

Luke 8:12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

2 Timothy 3:15 ... and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

Yes! Doesn't Scripture say that?

Luke 8:12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

2 Timothy 3:15 ... and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Blessings,
Lee

Cool, then you don't believe in T.D.

[lee_merrill]

Cool, then you don't believe in T.D.
Er, yes, I do.

God's word is all the ability here, as in the soil and the seed, the soil has no life, that is in the seed alone...

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

Er, yes, I do.

God's word is all the ability here, as in the soil and the seed, the soil has no life, that is in the seed alone...

Blessings,
Lee

Well IF the preaching of the unveiled word is all that is required, how come many hear the clear teaching of the gospel and still reject it? And if something more is required - then why did Christ need to veil His message?

[GoBahnsen]

God loves them and does seek to bring them to Himself. But God also gets fed up and turns those who have hardened their heart beyond repair, over to reprobation.

Seer, if God choose to clearly show humanity the Truth in terms that were undeniable, it wouldn't give opportunity for God to help that truth to take root and produce fruit. He does know the condition of their hearts and knows that some would hear and believe, some would hear and fall away and some would hear and disbelieve. But He chose not to reveal things in this fashion becasue He is looking to see which ones would take root. :smile:Well your OVT shines through. Just like God going down to Sodom to find out if it's as bad as some of the reports He has received.

I still find it hard to believe the low views of God out there, but I shouldn't, because it's perfectly natural. It's what we do when were kids, thinking of God like a big Santa Claus in the sky. "The big man upstairs is moving the furniture". All that childish stuff that we ought to put away when we grow up.

Ever wonder how God can hear millions of prayers at once in different languages. I wonder if He put those on hold while He jouneyed to earth to see Sodom? When He got back He had to check all His messages?

[Xmansmommy]

Well your OVT shines through. Just like God going down to Sodom to find out if it's as bad as some of the reports He has received.

I still find it hard to believe the low views of God out there, but I shouldn't, because it's perfectly natural. It's what we do when were kids, thinking of God like a big Santa Claus in the sky. "The big man upstairs is moving the furniture". All that childish stuff that we ought to put away when we grow up.

Before I wrongfully assume, are you comparing me with a child?

Ever wonder how God can hear millions of prayers at once in different languages.

Yes, and I believe I even started a thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=4121&highlight=God+hears+prayer) on it. It must really suck for God, never getting a moment's peace, eh?

I wonder if He put those on hold while He jouneyed to earth to see Sodom? When He got back He had to check all His messages?

How do you explain God hearing all the prayers of people all at once GB? It's easy to mock someone elses questions about the subject but I bet you don't have a grasp on the logistics of it either, do you?

[lee_merrill]

Hi Seer,

Well IF the preaching of the unveiled word is all that is required, how come many hear the clear teaching of the gospel and still reject it?
Because the devil snatches it away? Because it falls in shallow ground?

And if something more is required - then why did Christ need to veil His message?
Because maybe these hearers were not either of the above, and so he veiled his message. Also, this was the incarnate Son of God with them! That would be pretty powerful, in and of itself...

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

Because maybe these hearers were not either of the above, and so he veiled his message. Also, this was the incarnate Son of God with them! That would be pretty powerful, in and of itself...

Lee, usually you are quite clear. But now you are confusing me. If T.D. is true then by nature they could not have responded to the message - whether you,I or Christ preached it. In other words, T.D. teaches that there must first be a supernatural work of God before the man will receive the Gospel...

[Calvinist4Him]

Mark 4:11,12

And Jesus said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and their sins be forgiven."

This is the judgement spoken of by Isaiah. A judgement according to Isaiah for Israel's rebellion - past and future. The Arminian has no problem with this - "for what little they have, even that will be taken away.."

The question is: why would Christ need to veil His message in parables when dealing with the totally depraved? He says that He was speaking in parables so that they would not turn and have their sins forgiven. If T.D. is true - why are parables necessary?

They were not necessary....nothing in the text suggests it was anything other than God's choice. But if conditonal election and universal atonement are true, and "God so loved the world", WHY on earth would Christ purposely not speak in a way that would cause people to turn to God in repentance and be forgiven? So what you see as a problem for Calvinists, turns about to be more of a problem for Arminians.

[GoBahnsen]

Before I wrongfully assume, are you comparing me with a child?
When it comes to theology, I think you hold some childish beliefs, otherwise you might be a very mature mom.


Yes, and I believe I even started a thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=4121&highlight=God+hears+prayer) on it. It must really suck for God, never getting a moment's peace, eh?
Only if He is a man and not God.



How do you explain God hearing all the prayers of people all at once GB? It's easy to mock someone elses questions about the subject but I bet you don't have a grasp on the logistics of it either, do you?
What I'm mocking is a wooden literalism, not questions from young believers (not you) about things like "where did Cain get his wife". I don't chide people for ignorance, but after a while they may need a spanking for not moving on :wink: .

GB runs for cover before Solly shows up and spanks his lazy behind.

[seer]

They were not necessary....nothing in the text suggests it was anything other than God's choice. But if conditonal election and universal atonement are true, and "God so loved the world", WHY on earth would Christ purposely not speak in a way that would cause people to turn to God in repentance and be forgiven? So what you see as a problem for Calvinists, turns about to be more of a problem for Arminians.

But that is not what Christ said: "so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and their sins be forgiven."

He spoke in parables "lest" "unless" they turn and be forgiven. Meaning that if He didn't speak in parables they would have repented. And this is no problem for Arminians - we believe in God's judgement - the Jews had centuries of chances - and they generally kept rejecting God...

[Calvinist4Him]

But that is not what Christ said: "so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and their sins be forgiven."

He spoke in parables "lest" "unless" they turn and be forgiven. Meaning that if He didn't speak in parables they would have repented. And this is no problem for Arminians - we believe in God's judgement - the Jews had centuries of chances - and they generally kept rejecting God...

seer, re-read my post again. I answered from the standpoint of assuming the Arminian position of conditional election and unlimited atonement. I guess you somehow missed that the character of God is at stake...specifically His love...His omnibenevolence.

[seer]

seer, re-read my post again. I answered from the standpoint of assuming the Arminian position of conditional election and unlimited atonement. I guess you somehow missed that the character of God is at stake...specifically His love...His omnibenevolence.

I just reread it - what's your point? Why do you assume that Arminians do not believe in judgement (which this veiling was)? And you did say that the Parables were unnecessary - which contradicts Christ.

[Calvinist4Him]

I just reread it - what's your point? Why do you assume that Arminians do not believe in judgement (which this veiling was)? And you did say that the Parables were unnecessary - which contradicts Christ.

God...Christ...is not lacking...He does not need anything. He chose to speak in parables before the foundation of the earth...it wasn't a spare of the moment decision; "oh no, I better speak in parables, or else these folks might understand what I'm saying and repent". The parables were only necessary insofar as God keeping His word...which He was not obligated to give.

Now, I have an answer to your OP. How do we know that those whom Christ hid the truth from were not elect? How do we know whether it was their time or not? Christ did have that type of knowldge did He not?

[seer]

God...Christ...is not lacking...He does not need anything. He chose to speak in parables before the foundation of the earth...it wasn't a spare of the moment decision; "oh no, I better speak in parables, or else these folks might understand what I'm saying and repent". The parables were only necessary insofar as God keeping His word...which He was not obligated to give.

But that is exactly what Christ said. I speak in parables "lest" the turn and be forgiven. You are denying the text...

Now, I have an answer to your OP. How do we know that those whom Christ hid the truth from were not elect? How do we know whether it was their time or not? Christ did have that type of knowldge did He not?

That is possible. But unlikely since this was the judgement spoken of by Isaiah. Like the spirit of stupor sent to the Jews in Romans 11 so that they would not believe the Gospel. Of course if strict T.D. were true no such spirit would be necessary - just as the parables would be unnecessary...

[infide]

Mark 4:11,12

And Jesus said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and their sins be forgiven."

This is the judgement spoken of by Isaiah. A judgement according to Isaiah for Israel's rebellion - past and future. The Arminian has no problem with this - "for what little they have, even that will be taken away.."

The question is: why would Christ need to veil His message in parables when dealing with the totally depraved? He says that He was speaking in parables so that they would not turn and have their sins forgiven. If T.D. is true - why are parables necessary?

I think this passage is confusing from either side. From a T.D. standpoint, youre right, there should be no reason for Jesus to veil anything. If T.D. is true, Jesus could teach openly and the reprobate would just not understand it.

But I certainly dont see why Jesus would ever veil His message at all that people couldnt be forgiven. Perhaps it is Jesus' way of, as he would say later, use the simple things to confound the wise. That the truth was right there for their taking being preached to them, but they were too prideful and foolish to receive it.

Because we know that Jesus' disciples also did not understand. But what was the difference there? Jesus' disciples went to Jesus and asked, "what is the meaning?". Because they believed in Him and relied on Him. We dont really see those on the outside doing that, and that isnt surprising.

peace,
jd

[lee_merrill]

Hi Seer,

Lee: Because maybe these hearers were not either of the above, and so he veiled his message. Also, this was the incarnate Son of God with them! That would be pretty powerful, in and of itself...

Seer: If T.D. is true then by nature they could not have responded to the message - whether you, I or Christ preached it. In other words, T.D. teaches that there must first be a supernatural work of God before the man will receive the Gospel...
Well, I would hold that the presence of Christ, the unveiled word, if he had not spoken in parables, would have saved them, thus this need not imply any ability in themselves...

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

Hi Seer,


Well, I would hold that the presence of Christ, the unveiled word, if he had not spoken in parables, would have saved them, thus this need not imply any ability in themselves...

Blessings,
Lee

Ok, Lee I forgot. Do you believe that all men will be saved in the end?

[smaller]

Because we know that Jesus' disciples also did not understand. But what was the difference there? Jesus' disciples went to Jesus and asked, "what is the meaning?". Because they believed in Him and relied on Him. We dont really see those on the outside doing that, and that isnt surprising.

peace,
jd

They believed because The Shepherd kept the wolves at bay.

Parables also kept the wolves at bay.

When Jesus told the Disciples who were sent into the midst of wolves that they must be wise as serpents, harmless as doves what do you think He meant from that "parable?"

Where were the wolves? Who were the Disciples?

lol

[lee_merrill]

Do you believe that all men will be saved in the end?
I believe we are given reason to hope they will be! That's "soft universalism," which is not saying that all will certainly be saved in the end. I expect what will happen will be unlike anyone expects (including me), actually, yet it will be what God has been telling us, all along.

"People thought they had Jesus' first coming all figured out, and they were all wrong" (a pastor I heard second-hand). A good cautionary tale...

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

I believe we are given reason to hope they will be! That's "soft universalism," which is not saying that all will certainly be saved in the end. I expect what will happen will be unlike anyone expects (including me), actually, yet it will be what God has been telling us, all along.

"People thought they had Jesus' first coming all figured out, and they were all wrong" (a pastor I heard second-hand). A good cautionary tale...

Blessings,
Lee

Yeah, soft universalism kind of works. It's good to have that hope...

[infide]

Yeah, soft universalism kind of works. It's good to have that hope...

emphasis on "kind of". I've said to Lee before, that if it didnt seem that Scripture taught something different I would be all over that.

case in point:
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:46).

"eternal punishment" means something in this passage, and I think that the most obvious meaning is that it is their own eternal punishment they are entering into. To think that Jesus means that they are going into the eternal punishment of others (demons/Satan?) ignores all contextual clues, especially the one right here in this verse - the parallelism with the righteous going into eternal life.

But i completely understand Lee's predicament (as a Calvinist) for wanting to go there.

peace,
jd