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September 27th 2005, 01:21 PM
Returning to the observations of the absurdity of the debates with Calvins and Freewillers.
Predestination.
Of course Calvinists (supposedly) believe that they were simply scheduled to believe without any impetus of their own. Their belief came about because of God. A Divine Lottery System so to speak. Nothing of their own caused their belief. God made their belief happen or chose on some sort of unknown basis they call election. I still like the Divine Lottery name as it is more fitting to their belief. Since there was nothing about them that caused their election, God simply spun the wheel of life. Upon those who were fortunate enough for the wheel to stop at their name, God termed them "elect" and slated only them for every wonderful thing to come. These "elect" are then a purely random act of GOD'S CHOICE. God really hates them, but decided to overlook His Divine Hatred and love these hated ones based upon HIS DIVINE ACT OF CHOICE.
So Calvin "election" under Calvinism translates that God randomly decides to LOVE those which He should unilaterally and properly HATE.
Election (under Calvinism) then = Random Divine Love to that which SHOULD BE rightfully ETERNALLY HATED (with the associated penalties.)
So the observation here is that God is not providing the "rightfully due penalty" to SOME based solely upon a RANDOM ACT called election.
God then is PARTIAL to the "elect" based upon His Own Random CHOICE. as it pertains to the individual.
The missing logic to these ingredients is not that God has any true love for the "elect" but rather for HIS OWN RANDOM ACT OF CHOICE.
How legitimate is this conveyance of DIVINE LOVE of the "elect" when it is not upon the recipients but upon HIS OWN RANDOM ACT OF CHOICE? God really only LOVES HIS RANDOM ACT OF CHOICE. The "elect" had nothing to do with anything. The elect are only a side effect of God's Random Act OF CHOICE.
The heart of this Calvinist observation then is that really only God Loves His Random Act of CHOICE of which the elect are by default, a beneficiary BY-PRODUCT of God's Random Act of CHOICE which was the only "real reason" that they or their supposed love from God exists under.
In this formula God's Love as it relates to the "elect" is not unto them, but unto God's Love of HIS RANDOM ACT OF CHOICE.
We can rightfully term this Calvinist version of Divine Love as INDIRECT and UNMERITED DIVINE LOVE to the elect that is really only GOD'S LOVE OF HIS OWN RANDOM ACT OF CHOICE (supposedly coupled with His Assurances that He will not randomly change His Mind in the future as if assurances can be secure or justified using "THE LOVE OF THE DIVINE FOR HIS OWN RANDOM ACTS OF CHOICE" THEORY...;)
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I'll leave this observation of this type of Divine Love for now to move into the Freewiller camps:
Many at this board have postulated that God knows in advance who will choose to save themselves from God (or the devil depending on which camp.) God will save only those who make ONLY CHOICE A, HIS SLATED to be awarded CHOICE.
So in this theory God already KNEW who was going to be saved in advance by these choosers RANDOM ACT OF CHOICE. These "choices" must be "random" because there would always be the "possibility" of a "bad choice" in order for the term "free" to be attached to this choice even though God theoretically KNEW in advance which choice would be "freely" made...;)
Upon this basis of "free choice A (the awarded one of His Choice) or choice B (the alternative choice provided to show choice A's legitimacy of being a "choice) then God is FORCED to automatically love only these choosers of His Choice, A and these choosers are then termed the "elect" and then God pre-structured creation to revolve around these fore-known "free" choosers because GOD REALY LOVES THEIR CHOICE which is really only HIS CHOICE A, that God chooses to honor.
Now the freewiller will say this was THEIR choice, but if we peel this back to what God really loves in this scenario, God loves only HIS CHOICE A. Does God love the cause of the CHOICE or THE CHOICE? Whether that particular "choice" was derived from them or anyone else could be deemed irrelevant because the fulcrum of HIS LOVE just revolves around THE RIGHT CHOICE, HIS CHOICE A.
God in this pre-structured environment says "CHOICE A or CHOICE B" and says I ONLY LOVE CHOICE A MY CHOICE, that being and all choosers of B will be (x form of torture or annihilation.)
God in this scenario does not love the chooser but [b]THE CHOICE, A, or HIS CHOICE that being HIMSELF or ONLY HIS CHOICE OF WHAT IS PROPER AND ACCEPTABLE.
The fact that this choice originated in an "elect" is quite a side effect seeing that God really ONLY LOVES CHOICE A, HIS CHOICE.
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So the similarities of the Calvin positions and the Freewiller positions again show their absurdities in debate.
God LOVES ONLY HIS RANDOM CHOICE of the elect in the case of Calvinism.
God LOVES ONLY HIS CHOICE as it pertains to the elect in the case of Freewillism.
Do we really see a difference here between Freewillers or Calvinists?
--->God loves His Random Act of Choice as it pertains to the elect. (Calvinists)
--->God loves His Choice A as it pertains to the elect. (Freewillers)
Could HIS CHOICE be the same as HIS CHOICE?
Do you really see a difference here?
I don't.
The reality is both of these camps have tried to construct GOD'S CHOICE, but in fact it still remains GOD'S CHOICE, not their STRUCTURE of what God's Choice might be.
enjoy your dilema!
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Bob Marcaurelle
October 7th 2005, 03:00 PM
Calvinism-Free Will or Something Far Better?
Bob Marcaurelle
(Southern Baptist Pastor, Retired)
John 15:16
“You have not chosen Me. I have chosen you.”
Acts 2:38,40
“Repent- Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
Predestination and Free Will The longest standing argument in the Church is whether we exercise our free will and choose to accept God’s offer of salvation, or God chooses us before creation (Predestination). The problem is, the Bible seems to teach both.
A. THE BIBLE’S TWO POSITIONS
1. God Chooses Us- Predestination
Eph. 1:4-5
“He (God) chose us in Him (Christ) before the foundation of the world. He predestined us (determined beforehand) to be adopted as sons (children) through Jesus Christ. This was in accordance with the kindness of His will or purpose.”
Prophecy
This idea of God “knowing beforehand” is the basis of all prophecy. For example when Jesus predicted that Judas would betray Him, he knew (Jn. 6:64) it beforehand. In fact God knew it beforehand and predicted it a thousand years before in Psalm 41:9 (Jn. 13:18).
Chosen Individuals
God told Jeremiah,
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you and ordained you as a prophet to the nations.” (Jer. 1:5).
2. We Choose God- Free Will
Peter preached in the first church sermon, “Save yourselves- repent!” (Acts 2:38-40). Paul said of his confrontation with Jesus and his conversion in Acts 9, “I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision.” (Acts 26:19) Jesus said, “Come to me all of you who are tired and burdened.” (Matt. 11:28). 2 Pet. 3:9 says, “The Lord is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish (go to hell- John 3:16); but wanting everyone to come to repentance.” Luke 7:30 says, “The Pharisees and Bible teachers rejected God’s purpose for them by refusing to be baptized by him (John the Baptist).” Acts 17:30 says, “God commands all men everywhere to repent.” 1 Tim. 2:3-4 says, “God, our Savior-wants all men to be saved.”
B. THE EXTREME RESPONSES
1) Five Point Calvinists
A Ten men capture and brutally kill the son of a King. The men are captured, tried, and sentenced to death. The King decides, because He has the sovereign right to do what He wants, to set some of the men free. He calls them out and with no thought as to what kind of persons they are, chooses two to spare. The other eight are executed. His choice of the two was pure grace. It was a gift they had no right to. The other eight have no complaint, because they are guilty and get what they deserve.
Calvinists say God did this before He created. He allowed the human race to have sins that killed His Son. Because of his love, He chose to spare some of the race, not based on any goodness in them. He chose not to spare the rest and let them get exactly what they deserve. Five points, using the term TULIP, sum up their teachings.
T- Total depravity
We are spiritually “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph.2:1). We do not seek God (Rom. 3) and being dead, we cannot understand the Gospel, because it is nonsense to us (1Cor 2::12f). And we cannot come to God, we must be drawn by the Spirit (Jn 6:44). We also cannot repent and believe.
U- Unconditional Election
If salvation is a gift, by grace (Eph), we cannot earn it by repenting and believing. God, before creation, decides to save some of the human race and does not base it on anything good in them, or on the fact that they will repent and believe if given the change. If He did this, salvation would not be a gift, but something they earn by repenting and believing. L- Limited Atonement
Since Jesus has to suffer and die as a punishment for sin for a moral God to save sinners, anyone He dies for will be saved. Therefore, since the Bible says, Jesus died for His “sheep” (Jn. 10:11), Calvinists teach that He died only for the elect and not for all men. .
I- Irresistible Grace
Those God elects and sends Jesus to die for, are placed in life where they will come under the Gospel. The Holy Spirit draws them to salvation and causes them to desire it and accept it. The gift is irresistible, like a cold drink of water to a man dying of thirst.
P- Perseverance
These who are chosen and converted will persevere in repentance and faith and can never be unsaved.
2) Extreme Arminianism (Free Will)
A Story- To those who ignore the verses on predestination, and emphasize only free will, this example illustrates it.
Election means:
(1) God votes for you.
(2) The devil votes against you.
(3) We cast the deciding vote.
The System-
(1) God wants all people saved.
(2) God wants to get the gospel to all people.
(3) If we don’t go, and people are lost, it is our fault, not theirs (If they would have accepted), and not God’s.
(4) This breaks the heart of God.
C. A MIDDLE POSITION
1. We Have Human Limitations
“My thoughts, says the Lord, are not your thoughts, and my ways are different from yours. As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are My ways and thoughts above yours.” (Isa. 55)
The rationalist says that if two teachings contradict each other, only one can be true. The philosopher says two apparently contradictory teachings may be a “paradox”, and both could be proven true, if all the facts were known.
To be honest with both, apparently contradictory, Bible teachings we must take this approach. Charles Simeon said:
“It would be well, if, instead of contending for human systems, and especially those of Calvin and Arminius, if we would be content to receive the Scriptures with the simplicity of little children.
After all has been written in support of these two prominent systems, it is impossible to reduce the Scriptures to either one. In both views there are difficulties which can never be surmounted and contradictions which man can never reconcile.
It is by attempting to be wise above what is written that we involve ourselves in these difficulties. If we would be content to take the Scriptures as they are, and leave the reconciling of them to God, by whose inspiration they were written, we would find they were designed to produce the results God intends.” (Expository Outlines on the Whole Bible, Volume18, Zondervan Publishing House,1955, pg.493-494) Some English changed for clarity.
All attempts to explain free will and predestination presuppose that we can sit where God sits; see what God sees; and know what God knows.
2. We Have a Great and Awesome God
We who believe in predestination and free will believe in an awesome God who can know something ahead of time and still leave us free to choose. This makes absolutely no sense rationally, but when God is involved, reason must admit her limitations.
3. Extreme Free Will Preaches a Weak and Foolish God
If God wants all people saved; if He wants us to get the gospel to them; if some go to hell because we fail to tell them; and if this breaks the heart of God; that God is both weak and foolish.
As a first year seminary student I would go to Foreign Mission Services in Chapel. Speakers would tell of lands with millions of lost people and only 10 or 12 Missionaries. They would tell us how many thousands died and went to hell every day. They would beg us to go to the mission field and make us feel guilty if we didn’t.
My problem was this. God was losing. If I went and became missionary number 13, He would still be losing. This, to me made no sense.
(1) The God of the Bible would know ahead of time, most people are not going to uproot their families and go live in a foreign land.
(2) If people really believed in this, then every Seminary Student, and almost every Pastor in America should go to the mission field. With millions dying and going to hell; how could we justify going to some county in American with 80 Baptist churches; 50 other churches; and gospel sermons on radio and TV every day?
(3) Dr. E.Y. Mullins says free will salvation is as limited numerically in its results and is every bit as “elective” as predestination. He chose to save all those fortunate enough to come under the sound of the gospel. All others would be out of luck.
This puny God has tied His hands with the chords of human freedom;has devised a plan that will not work; and the people who suffer for it are the poor souls, far outnumbering the saved, who get the chance to accept Christ.
And when we get to heaven, He is going to blame us.
4. Most Protestants believe in the moderate position that God brings us to the point of salvation and leaves us free to choose or reject it.
1) A Gift can be Chosen or Rejected
Against Calvinism- The Calvinist teaching that if we choose salvation, we somehow earn it, is not true. If a man and wife go to an orphanage and select a child to be their son, and tell him what they expect, he can say yes or no. He does not deserve to be their son. He has no right or claim on them. But he can accept their gift.
2) Prevenient Grace- Working with God
Against extreme free will- A Story- A man wants his son to go to college but the boy wants to get a job after High School and buy a new car. The dad knows if he pesters him, he will drive him away from college. So he gets his son’s football coach, whom the boy admires, to talk about the value of college. He gets the boys friends, male and female, to do the same. Near the end of school, he has his wife tell their son, she and his father had decided to give him the new car he wanted, if he goes to college. But she added, “But son, its your decision.” One day the boy comes in and says, “Mom and dad, I have decided to go to college.” It was all they could do to act surprised.
John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist Church, taught prevenient grace.
(a) Christ dies for the ungodly (Rom. 5:8)- for those like us who killed him (Acts 2:36).
(b) Christ chooses us (Jn. 6:44)when we would never choose Him.
(c) Christ seeks us (Lk. 15) when we never sought Him (Rom 3:11).
(d) The Holy Spirit enables us to understand the gospel (1 Cor. 1:18ff)
(4) The Holy Spirit works faith (Eph. 2:8) in us and brings us to repentance (Heb. 6:4).
(e) The Choice
God brings us to the point of salvation, but at that moment the choice is ours. God throws us a rope and we grab it. This is what the vast majority of Protestants believe.
5. Calvinism rejects clear Bible teachings.
Extreme free will rejects predestination verses by twisting their meaning to its system; and Calvinists do the same with free will verses.
1) God Wants All People Saved
1 Timothy 2:4 says, “God desires that all men be saved.” 2 Pet. 3:9 says, “The Lord is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish (go to hell- John 3:16); but wanting everyone to come to repentance.” Luke 7:30 says, “The Pharisees and Bible teachers rejected God’s purpose for them by refusing to be baptized by him (John the Baptist).”
2) Jesus Died for All People
1 Tim. 2: 5-6 says, “There is one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus; who gave himself as a ransom for all men- the testimony given in its proper time.”
. First John 2:2 says, “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not just for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
6. Calvinism Makes God Insincere
The Universal Invitation
Jesus says, “Come to me all of you.” (Matt. 11:28); and God “commands all men to repent.” (Acts 11: 31) Calvinists say this is like us asking people to do something even when we know some of them won’t do it. The difference, however, is that Jesus is inviting people he knows cannot come without his intrusion. And worse, God is commanding people to do something (repent), He knows they cannot do.
The Sadness of Forced Love
We all know that love is something we must choose to accept. Many parents know what it is to offer love and kindness to children who don’t deserve it; only to have them reject it and go their own way. Love forced on someone is not love. How sad heaven will be. Not one single human being chose to love God.
7. Calvinism makes Human Beings Puppets (Fatalism)
Calvinism is coercive. To choose a person without his say so, or to make him say so, is the total abolition of his freedom Baptists hold dear. Calvinism is fatalistic. No matter how much they deny this with theological “mumbo jumbo” their God is making “puppets” of everyone, including you and me.
8. Calvinism makes God a Cruel Monster
The worst thing about Calvinism is that it makes God unloving. They portray a God of extreme cruelty who, by no stretch of the imagination, can be called loving.
God is Love
The Bible says, “God is ____” three times. (1) God is spirit. (2) God is light. (3) God is love (1 Jn. 4:8) This is the only moral attribute found after the words. “God is.” His essence is love. Love is what motivates him. Love is the reason He does things.
Emphasizing Sovereignty and Honor
To Calvinists, God’s great love, was in choosing the tiny little spec of people to be saved, and letting the huge majority suffer in hell forever. They emphasize His sovereignty; His right to do this. They also emphasize His honor. He does not do anything because it helps human beings; He does it, they say, to bring honor to Himself. One Calvinist, recently wrote a Baptist Pastor (Frank Page) who spoke against Calvinism at Anderson, College:
“ God’s chief desire is for God. God does not exist for us / we exist for Him. God is not an idolater. He loves no one more than Himself.”
The Opposite of Love
The God of Calvinism is the opposite of love. He is cruel and heartless.
1) God creates sinful people and condemns them for being sinful.
Psalm 139:13, 14, 16
“You created my inmost being. You knitted me together in my mother’s womb. Your works are wonderful. Your eyes saw my unformed body. All my days ordained for me were written in your Book before one of them came to be.”
Psalm 51:5
“Surely I have been a sinner since birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” (NIV)
God make us sinful and depraved (Ps. 139:18; Ps. 51:5), and sends us to hell for being sinful and depraved. That is like creating a dog to bark and sending it to hell for barking.
2) God chooses to save only a tiny few
God, before He began this type of world, out of His “great love” decided to show mercy, and kindness, and fairness to a few lucky people. This is Sovereignty. This is His right. But it is not “great love”. It is not love at all. Calvinists are quick to point out that God is under no obligation to love or show mercy or kindness. The problem is God tells us He “is love” and it is He who defines love as showing mercy, kindness and help to those who are suffering (Luke 10, The Good Samaritan)
Calvinists sayGod sends no one to hell. He allows them to go. That is semantics that only dodges the end result.
For no other reason than that He has the right and power to do it (Sovereignty). He chooses not to love and not to die for and not to save those He created sinful. But He does choose also, not to annihilate them, but to resurrect them and keep them alive forever in hell. Under no stretch of the imagination does this come even close to mercy, justice or love as we find it defined in Scripture.
That’s why John Wesley told a Calvinist, “The One you call God, we call the devil.” . Calvinists feel they honor God and give him “all the glory” by stressing His Sovereign power over people like you and me. That’s no big deal. Half my church members can beat me up.
My God is honored when He comes to the planet and climbs up on a cross for me and gives me the freedom to reject Him and break His heart. A school yard bully doesn’t impress me, but a person who pushes me out of the path of a car and is crushed by it impresses me and will get all my honor, praise, glory, love, service and thanks throughout all eternity.
Illustration: If a fireman places two children in a building he knows is going to be set on fire and goes back into the blaze and saves only one, when he could save both, no one would call that love. This kind of cruelty may express Sovereignty- the right to choose, but it does not come within a million miles of kindness, love or what is right.
9. Free Will Also Pictures God as Cruel
The same criticisms apply to extreme free will. If an all powerful and all wise God creates sinful humans and gives them no chance to hear the gospel, He is not loving or fair.
10) The cruel pictures of God in Scripture have to do with the placement of human beings in this life.
When the Bible says things like, “Before they were born and before they did good or evil, I hated Esau and loved Jacob” (Mal. 1:2-3: Rom. 9:13) this has to do, not with eternal destiny, but with their lot in life assigned by God. God gave Jacob (the younger of the two) the blessing of the oldest son; and allowed the land of Esau (Edom) to be conquered and to be ruled over by Judah. Malachi (1:3-4) makes this very application.
The day you were born into a moral, loving family, in America; thousands of others were born into horrible homes in America or horrible conditions in Third World countries. This is God’s design and we are the “clay” and He is the “potter”. He does have a right to do this, because He is God. But since he tells us he is love; and he wants all people to come to a knowledge of the truth and repent; them we believe behind the seeming cruelty there is a loving, and kind purpose, we will see when we get to heaven.
11. People go to hell for rejecting Christ, not for being sinners; and God will give every human being who will accept Christ, a chance to do so.
Anyone who will accept Christ will be given that chance. We don’t know how God will do it, but we believe love will find a way. And there are several hints in Scripture that God will do it.
God could do this in a number of ways:
1) Universal Salvation
1 Cor. 15:22
“As in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive.” (Also Rom. 5:15)
I would love to believe this, but I can’t. The seriousness of Jesus about hell and the horrible prospect of anyone going there, makes me plead with you to give Jesus, your life to change and your sins to forgive, and get up every day and do it over and over as a way of life. The Bible nowhere offers hope to anyone who rejects Jesus Christ.
2) Annihilation
Matt. 10:28
“Do not be afraid of those who can destroy the body. Instead, be afraid of Him (God) who can destroy both body and soul in hell.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and even Conservative Evangelical Scholars like John R. W. Stott, believe that one day God will put all lost souls out of existence. Again, I would love to believe this and I hope with all my heart that it is true. If someone raped and killed our child, even we would not punish him forever, if we could destroy him. How much more then, is this true of God? But no one should count on this. If we reject Jesus the punishment will be terrible and it may be eternal.
3) Reincarnation
Matt. 11:21
Jesus said, “Woe to you Chorazin / if the miracles worked in you had been worked in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented.”
Jesus says here that some people born in places outside the witness of Christianity would repent and be saved if given the chance. Almost every religion feels God may reincarnate human beings and give them other chances. The Bible never teaches this, but it hints at it when Jesus called John the Baptist “ Elijah”; a prophet who lived hundreds of years earlier. (Mt. 17:12) C. S. Lewis said, “I believe that if a million chances were likely to do good they would be given.” (The Problem of Pain, p. 12).
4) Divine Omniscience (Mt. 11: 20-24)
This passage also shows that God knows what every human being would have done, if given the chance to accept Christ. God could judge all men on this basis.
5) Salvation after Death.(1 Pet. 3:18-19; 4:6)
Others take the verse on Christ’s “preaching to spirits in prison” (1 Pet. 3:19) and of the gospel being “preached to the dead” (1 Pet. 4:6) to mean that Christ gives those who have never heard, a chance to be saved.
6) Living Up to the Light.
John 1:9
“The true light came into the world; the light that enlightens every person.”
Rom. 2:6, 8-10)
“For He (God) will render to every man according to his works, justly as his deeds deserve…For those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the truth but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath. There will be tribulation and anguish and calamity and constraint for every soul of man who habitually does evil, the Jew first (Those who had the Scriptures) and also to the Greek (Gentile). But there will be glory, honor and peace, for everyone who habitually does good, for the Jew first, and for the Gentiles.” (The Amplified Bible)
This belief is that we go to heaven by the benefits of Christ death, which are applied by God to all those who live up to the moral and spiritual light they receive from Jesus, the light who enlightens every person.
This belief is more common among Conservative Pastors than most people realize. A lot of Pastors just cannot see God sending a person to hell with no chance of going to heaven. I have found this in the writings of men like G. Campbell Morgan; C. E. Marcartney; Alexamder McClaren and Joseph Parker. And more recently by Clark Pinnock, Johm R W Stott andBilly Graham.
The truth is, most laymen probably believe this also, not because they can prove it from Scripture, but because they cannot believe in the cruelty and unkindness of the God preached by Calvinists and extreme free will preachers.
(See "Inclusivism" on this Web Site- TheologyWebCampus)
This is how we are saved. All people go to heaven only by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. “Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.” (Heb. 9:22). God chooses to apply the benefits of Christ’s death to us if we: (1) Repent; (2) Believe (3); and live a life of repentance and faith.
This is how God judges and saves infants and the mentally challenged. Most Calvinists I know say babies, not elected, go to hell. That is how Old Testament saints were saved - by faith in the sacrificial system and obedience as the fruit of it (Mic. 6:6-10).
Listen to G. Campbell Morgan (a Conservative preacher) on Cornelius (Acts 10):
“Oh the glad and glorious surprise of those ultimate days when we find there will be those who walked in the light they had and wrought righteousness, and were acceptable to Him; not because of their morality, but by the infinite merit of the cross ...”
“The Acts of the Apostles”p. 281; Fleming J. Revell,
Westwood N.J., 1924).
Conclusion
We don’t know how God will do it, but love will find a way. In “The Gospel of Redemption” , long time Baptist Professor and Theologian Dr. W. T. Conner (p. 354) says the Bible does not necessarily indicate that all those who do not hear are lost. He says:
“Those who reject Christ go to hell and those who accept Him go to heaven. The great mass of mankind, lying in between, who have never heard, “we can safely leave in the hands of God, being assured that He will do what is right.”
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