A Low View Of God?

[seer]

Many Calvinist accuse Arminians of having a low view of God. I assume this has to do with the Sovereignty of God. If God does not control every single act/event then that some how lessens Him... I think it is just the opposite. It is easy to see your plan enacted if you program the actors to do exactly what you want. A puppet master is neither very original or clever. But A God who can work through and around genuine human freedom/choice to see His ends established, is a God who is much more resourceful, clever and wise than the mere puppet master. This I believe is a much higher view of God...

[yxboom]

Many Calvinist accuse Arminians of having a low view of God. I assume this has to do with the Sovereignty of God. If God does not control every single act/event then that some how lessens Him... I think it is just the opposite. It is easy to see your plan enacted if you program the actors to do exactly what you want. A puppet master is neither very original or clever. But A God who can work through and around genuine human freedom/choice to see His ends established, is a God who is much more resourceful, clever and wise than the mere puppet master. This I believe is a much higher view of God...
you know the word we humans use to describe a king who exercises unrestricted control...

[GoBahnsen]

Many Calvinist accuse Arminians of having a low view of God. I assume this has to do with the Sovereignty of God. If God does not control every single act/event then that some how lessens Him... I think it is just the opposite. It is easy to see your plan enacted if you program the actors to do exactly what you want. A puppet master is neither very original or clever. But A God who can work through and around genuine human freedom/choice to see His ends established, is a God who is much more resourceful, clever and wise than the mere puppet master. This I believe is a much higher view of God...

I think you really have too small a version of God. Almost like He is a really quick creature who is really fantastic at being superman/God. Super smart, weaving in and out of human traffic. Letting all the other creatures be free to defy Him, while He busy's Himself fixing all their constant chaos.

Looking for love from his fellow creatures which he made himself. No seer, you just haven't been stretched out yet, the way a Reformed believer has, but if I'm right, it isn't because I'm wiser or smarter. If I have the better view, it's all owing to grace. If you have the better view, it's all owing to your resourcefulness.

You once were brave enough to be a rare Arminian Twebber and admit that Christians are believers because they are wiser than unbelievers. You said that, do you remember?

But you can't credit that wisdom to God, because that would mean God gave it to everyone else as well (in your view). So you're wiser than the average bear...congrats seer for being so wise as to choose Christ. I'm sure you made His day when you showed him how wise you are.

I might sound nasty, but I mean you no disrespect. I guess we're just like two boxers and now we're in close, landing body blows. But at the end of the match we can embrace in mutual respect. You have a rough background, I'm thankful that Jesus got a hold of your heart to the degree He has it. I trust He does.

[GoBahnsen]

you know the word we humans use to describe a king who exercises unrestricted control...When an earthly king takes to himself the authority that belongs only to God, we call that king evil. But then you turn it around and say that God must act like a good human king.

[seer]

I think you really have too small a version of God. Almost like He is a really quick creature who is really fantastic at being superman/God. Super smart, weaving in and out of human traffic. Letting all the other creatures be free to defy Him, while He busy's Himself fixing all their constant chaos.

Better than a mere puppet master Gb. There is no glory in that... Or resourcefulness...

You once were brave enough to be a rare Arminian Twebber and admit that Christians are believers because they are wiser than unbelievers. You said that, do you remember?

You are correct. And I stand by it - believers are wiser than non-believers. I think the bible says the same in Proverbs...

But you can't credit that wisdom to God, because that would mean God gave it to everyone else as well (in your view). So you're wiser than the average bear...congrats seer for being so wise as to choose Christ. I'm sure you made His day when you showed him how wise you are.

I responded to His overtures Gb,what He did for me I believe He would do for any man. I'am not that special... And yes, I do think that brings a smile to His face. The angels rejoice when a sinner repents. Why not God?

[yxboom]

When an earthly king takes to himself the authority that belongs only to God, we call that king evil. But then you turn it around and say that God must act like a good human king.
Oh man.

So a human king is evil for being a tyrant because it's only God's place to be one.

you've said volumes more than I could ever. thanks.

[Nang]

I think you really have too small a version of God. .

It is not only small; it is blasphemous, mean, and wicked.

Several persons on this site reveal a remaining curse of enmity against God, by their attempts to define God on human terms instead of worshiping and adoring God according to His terms.

Who is it that usurps? Who is it that oppresses? Who seek to dethrone God Almighty and rule in His stead?

Nang

[micah4]

Several persons on this site reveal a remaining curse of enmity against God, by their attempts to define God on human terms instead of worshiping and adoring God according to His terms.


Gee Nang, I'd think I would keep my personal problems to myself if I were you.

[Xmansmommy]

It is not only small; it is blasphemous, mean, and wicked.

Several persons on this site reveal a remaining curse of enmity against God, by their attempts to define God on human terms instead of worshiping and adoring God according to His terms.

Who is it that usurps? Who is it that oppresses? Who seek to dethrone God Almighty and rule in His stead?

Nang

Nang, which verse condemns believers because they accept the terms, definitions and language God chose to use to describe Himself via the scriptures? Where do the scriptures call believing God's description of Himself blasphemy? Surely you are aware of the passage that says He made mankind/womankind in His image? I don't think I physically look like God so which attributes that you or I have are in the likeness of God? :eh:

[GoBahnsen]

Oh man.

So a human king is evil for being a tyrant because it's only God's place to be one.

you've said volumes more than I could ever. thanks.Not so fast...A human king is evil when he takes to himself absolute control, because only God is entitled to that. God owns you boom, whether you give yourself to Him or not. No earthly king can make claim to that.

So when an earthly king says "I'm going to take your son and kill him", we cry foul. God does that on a regular basis and we ought to be careful how accuse Him when He plays God.

[Calvinist4Him]

Many Calvinist accuse Arminians of having a low view of God. I assume this has to do with the Sovereignty of God. If God does not control every single act/event then that some how lessens Him... I think it is just the opposite. It is easy to see your plan enacted if you program the actors to do exactly what you want. A puppet master is neither very original or clever. But A God who can work through and around genuine human freedom/choice to see His ends established, is a God who is much more resourceful, clever and wise than the mere puppet master. This I believe is a much higher view of God...

The highest view of God, is the view which is most biblical. I believe the highest view is compatibilism, which could easily be read into your post. In your post above, you didn't state anything I disagree with as a compatibilist, as a biblicist. On the other hand, the seperation between Arminian and Calvinist (compatibilist) would be in the details...when we start talking about doing spiritual good, and being spiritually alive or dead...and the need to be "born again". The main point I wish to drive is that what you've described above isn't distinctly Arminian as you've implied.

[Calvinist4Him]

I think you really have too small a version of God.

If I were a doctor, I might diagnose you with "hyper-Calvinism", would my diagnosis be correct if I did? If I did, I would put you on a Bible prescription, maybe with some reading from Jonathan Edwards, Dr. Van Til, and Dr. Bahnsen.

[Calvinist4Him]

It is not only small; it is blasphemous, mean, and wicked.

Interesting, I might be tempted to label "hyper-Calvinism" with the same words.

Several persons on this site reveal a remaining curse of enmity against God, by their attempts to define God on human terms instead of worshiping and adoring God according to His terms.

Who is it that usurps? Who is it that oppresses? Who seek to dethrone God Almighty and rule in His stead?

Please do not mistake meticulus control for a correct view of the sovereignty of God according to Calvinism. Because any view of sovereignty which denies the responsibility of man, is a perversion of historic Calvinism and should be exposed as such.

[Nang]

any view of sovereignty which denies the responsibility of man, is a perversion of historic Calvinism and should be exposed as such.

Do you believe that human responsibility restricts God?

Nang

[yxboom]

Not so fast...A human king is evil when he takes to himself absolute control, because only God is entitled to that. God owns you boom, whether you give yourself to Him or not. No earthly king can make claim to that.

So when an earthly king says "I'm going to take your son and kill him", we cry foul. God does that on a regular basis and we ought to be careful how accuse Him when He plays God.
youve said nothing new. all you did was re-wrap it. the message is still the same, human kings have no place being a tyrant because God already has the monopoly.

[Calvinist4Him]

Do you believe that human responsibility restricts God?

Could you expound more? I am not sure, just exactly what you're asking me. I would have to say that nothing restricts God. He can intervene in human affairs any time of His choosing, according to His pleasure, according to His will. But just because He can, that doesn't mean He also doesn't allow people the freedom to make conscience decisons (which are contrary to God's desires) according to their nature. As for the abundance of sin in the world and the will of God...

Genesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive."

and...

Romans 8:28 "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

[GoBahnsen]

If I were a doctor, I might diagnose you with "hyper-Calvinism", would my diagnosis be correct if I did? I hope not. I don't even want to be a Calvinist, let alone one who is hyper :lol:

If I did, I would put you on a Bible prescription, maybe with some reading from Jonathan Edwards, Dr. Van Til, and Dr. Bahnsen. That hurts

[GoBahnsen]

youve said nothing new. all you did was re-wrap it. the message is still the same, human kings have no place being a tyrant because God already has the monopoly.God has the monopoly on being God, boom. If an earthly king did to Egypt, what God did there 3500 years ago, we would label him the worst monster to ever invade the planet. God killed the first born of the animals, even. Imagine the little Egyptian girl waking up, not only to find her dead brother, but the family first born male puppy as well.

GoBahnsen walks away still shaking his head at C4Him's shot in the dark.

[Nang]

Could you expound more? I am not sure, just exactly what you're asking me. I would have to say that nothing restricts God.

You would be correct to say that nothing restricts God . . .

. . . but this bunch is trying to infer that if human free-will decisions do not play a part in restricting or influencing God's will and rule, that God is therefore defined as a tyrant.

Nang

[technomage]

God as a despotic puppetmaster ... or God as a constantly-juggling re-arranger.

We either get a God that damns people to hell before they are even born, or a God who has to go to Plan B, and when that doesn't work, go to Plan C ... makes me wonder how many times He's had to cycle through the alphabet by now.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism are "low views" of God.

[yxboom]

God has the monopoly on being God, boom. If an earthly king did to Egypt, what God did there 3500 years ago, we would label him the worst monster to ever invade the planet. God killed the first born of the animals, even. Imagine the little Egyptian girl waking up, not only to find her dead brother, but the family first born male puppy as well.
sadly I can see your understanding of the Egyptian plague from your worldview and the sentiments of your post. God the great and terrible sovereign, tremble before Him. at least your consistent.

GoBahnsen walks away still shaking his head at C4Him's shot in the dark.
i agree that was rather uncalled for.

[yxboom]

God as a despotic puppetmaster ... or God as a constantly-juggling re-arranger.

We either get a God that damns people to hell before they are even born, or a God who has to go to Plan B, and when that doesn't work, go to Plan C ... makes me wonder how many times He's had to cycle through the alphabet by now.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism are "low views" of God.
Please explain how a dynamic view of God is belittling.

[Calvinist4Him]

I hope not. I don't even want to be a Calvinist, let alone one who is hyper :lol:

:ahem: Everyone thinks they're a biblicist, even GoBahnsenists, but who is in reality?

That hurts

That's a good sign...at least you're not numb.

[technomage]

Please explain how a dynamic view of God is belittling.

A "dynamic" view of God is not ... but a God who has to [edited: is forced to] constantly change His plans because humans keep messing them up is belittling, or at least a "low view."

God is beyond the understanding--and most importantly the doctrine--of both Calvin and Arminius. We may reach and strive, but unless one speaks only in the most general of terms, for either side to make the claim "God is thus, and any other view is wrong" is presumptuous for the claimant, and belittling to God.

But God is not belittled by the claims, for the claims do not change the nature of God, or even of humanity. The only things such specific and strident claims prove is the paucity of our knowledge.

[Calvinist4Him]

i agree that was rather uncalled for.

The nerve you have...is legendary...at least you live up to it.

[Calvinist4Him]

You would be correct to say that nothing restricts God . . .

. . . but this bunch is trying to infer that if human free-will decisions do not play a part in restricting or influencing God's will and rule, that God is therefore defined as a tyrant.

While I don't agree with the terminology "free will", humans have the freedom to make decisions for which they are responsible. By implying that humans do not have any freedom, a false dichotomy is created, which actually gives the bunch you disagree with ammunition to use against you.

[yxboom]

A "dynamic" view of God is not ... but a God who has to [edited: is forced to] constantly change His plans because humans keep messing them up is belittling, or at least a "low view."
even if it is the desire of God to be in a dynamic relationship?

God is beyond the understanding--and most importantly the doctrine--of both Calvin and Arminius. We may reach and strive, but unless one speaks only in the most general of terms, for either side to make the claim "God is thus, and any other view is wrong" is presumptuous for the claimant, and belittling to God.
I dont recall myself or much anyone make any claims on having the monopoly on understanding God, thats why we have nang.

But God is not belittled by the claims, for the claims do not change the nature of God, or even of humanity. The only things such specific and strident claims prove is the paucity of our knowledge.
so basically only your claims do not belittle God.

[yxboom]

The nerve you have...is legendary...at least you live up to it.
my nerve... your audacity. we should go bowling.

[Calvinist4Him]

my nerve... your audacity. we should go bowling.

:lol: Sounds like fun to me, I'm ready whenever you are.

[Nang]

I dont recall myself or much anyone make any claims on having the monopoly on understanding God, thats why we have nang.


Well, at least you have this much figured out. :wink:

Nang

[technomage]

even if it is the desire of God to be in a dynamic relationship?

A God who desires such a relationship is not the God the Calvinists are using in their straw-man charicatures of Arminianism. They depict a God who is helpless to prevent such changes of plans.

I dont recall myself or much anyone make any claims on having the monopoly on understanding God, thats why we have nang.

Well, Seer seems to think he's got a better understanding than anyone else. Nang's another good one.

so basically only your claims do not belittle God.

yxboom, my biggest claim about God is "I do not understand." And I don't. Whatever glimmer of understanding I posess is, to coin a phrase, "crumbs from the Master's table." Yet those crumbs are a feast to me--a feast that I will share with any who are hungry.

[yxboom]

A God who desires such a relationship is not the God the Calvinists are using in their straw-man charicatures of Arminianism. They depict a God who is helpless to prevent such changes of plans.
but only the Calvinists are posturing that their interpretation is correct. why jump on the bandwagon?

Well, Seer seems to think he's got a better understanding than anyone else. Nang's another good one.
maybe they know more than they are letting up :shifty: Perhaps they will tell us, is God really Alanis Morrisette?

yxboom, my biggest claim about God is "I do not understand." And I don't. Whatever glimmer of understanding I posess is, to coin a phrase, "crumbs from the Master's table." Yet those crumbs are a feast to me--a feast that I will share with any who are hungry.
isn't that really what we all are doing in our own way? as much as C4H is like eating a stale burrito, I still read what he has to say because he does offer some things valuable besides all the bad gas. Same with GoB, I adamently disagree but I respect his freedom to believe what he does and i think he geniunely seeks to please God. So he as well may offer something worthwhile as our purpose is the same. These are my "breadcrumbs" if you will.

[Nang]

While I don't agree with the terminology "free will", humans have the freedom to make decisions for which they are responsible.

What "decisions" are humans responsible to make?

What can we humans do, that Jesus Christ did not already do on our behalf?

Have faith? He was faithful.
Obey? He was perfectly obedient.
Do good works? What works would achieve more than His works?
Live holy? In the flesh, or by Christ's indwelling Spirit.



By implying that humans do not have any freedom, a false dichotomy is created, which actually gives the bunch you disagree with ammunition to use against you.

The will of man is commanded to act in submission to the will of God.

Christians submit to the will of God through His graceful gift of the faith of Jesus Christ, who equips them and instills within them the desire to do so.

Where is the freedom for Christians to act differently than their Lord?

It is not a false dichotomy to deny "freedom" of will, when even Jesus Christ, as our example, submitted His will entirely to the Father. Did you ever see Jesus act freely (autonomously), from the Law, the Word, or the Will of His Father?

For when this bunch teaches "free will," they are really teaching man can live autonomously from the sovereign control of God. They encourage such, and reveal such, when they infer that God is a tyrant if He does not allow His servants such freedom.

(There is no in-between doctrinal position, here, friend. One is either "free" to act apart from God's control, or one is not. The teaching that man has "freedom" to act and thereby influence (or "restrict") God in any way, shape, or form, is a repeat of ancient heresy.)

Heads-up: :eek:

I am new here, but it is now becoming obvious to me that false teaching of a very serious nature has established this site in the name of "theology," and has had a hay-day propogating their phoney views in the name of Jesus Christ.

But God is not mocked.

God will surely deal with this abomination in His own way and in His own time.

Nang

[technomage]

but only the Calvinists are posturing that their interpretation is correct. why jump on the bandwagon?

Because there's enough truth to the charicature that it does have to be mentioned. The "God can't prevent human choice, so he has to keep changing plans" is the logical conclusion of some of Seer's posts.

Oh, and add Zipperhead to the list of "People who KNOW!"

maybe they know more than they are letting up :shifty: Perhaps they will tell us, is God really Alanis Morrisette?

Pink Floyd, you infidel.

isn't that really what we all are doing in our own way? as much as C4H is like eating a stale burrito, I still read what he has to say because he does offer some things valuable besides all the bad gas. Same with GoB, I adamently disagree but I respect his freedom to believe what he does and i think he geniunely seeks to please God. So he as well may offer something worthwhile as our purpose is the same.

yxboom, that part I completely and totally agree with--we all have the potential of bringing our crumbs together to make a greater understanding. It's when people start saying "I know that your insight is foolish," yet only take certain proof texts (and ignore others) to establish their point that I get cranky.

And yeah ... there are going to be times when someone brings something to the table that is wrong. OK, it happens. But I have to admit I'm a bit sick and tired of Person A looking down on Person B because Person B doesn't believe the same way.

And maybe I'm just being extra-cranky after a long, tiring, and painful day. Let me head to bed, 'boom ... maybe I won't be so cranky in the morning.

[yxboom]

Because there's enough truth to the charicature that it does have to be mentioned. The "God can't prevent human choice, so he has to keep changing plans" is the logical conclusion of some of Seer's posts.
Im a freewill theist so I am going to agree with Seer however, I do so not that God is incapable but God chooses to withhold. Why He does? most of the time... i dunno. I echo Abraham in that I simply rely on faith that God will do righteously.

Oh, and add Zipperhead to the list of "People who KNOW!"
Colossians...this list may get longer than im willing to admit.

Pink Floyd, you infidel.
did nang tell you this?

yxboom, that part I completely and totally agree with--we all have the potential of bringing our crumbs together to make a greater understanding. It's when people start saying "I know that your insight is foolish," yet only take certain proof texts (and ignore others) to establish their point that I get cranky.
while i think your conclusions are foolish i am thoroughly convinced you aint no fool. so where that puts you :nsm: :hehe:

And yeah ... there are going to be times when someone brings something to the table that is wrong. OK, it happens. But I have to admit I'm a bit sick and tired of Person A looking down on Person B because Person B doesn't believe the same way.
Rarely if never would i say i look down on anyone. they are usually granted honorary position as comic relief. just ask BV.

And maybe I'm just being extra-cranky after a long, tiring, and painful day. Let me head to bed, 'boom ... maybe I won't be so cranky in the morning.
i hear ya.

[GoBahnsen]

Well, at least you have this much figured out. :wink:

NangAhhh...and she has a sense of humor too. Nang, your posts are a blessing to me. I won't say I'm on board with everything you say, but your posts resonate with me more than they turn me off. To God alone be the glory friend, GB

[GoBahnsen]

sadly I can see your understanding of the Egyptian plague from your worldview and the sentiments of your post. God the great and terrible sovereign, tremble before Him. at least your consistent. Right on. He is awesome and greatly to be feared.

i agree that was rather uncalled for.It was, but C4Him is my friend. I love the guy.

[Calvinist4Him]

What "decisions" are humans responsible to make?

Ones which they are allowed (by God) to make according to their nature. The key phrase is "according to their nature". Without faith it is impossible to please God. That which is not of faith is sin, Christ is the author and finisher of faith (in Him), and not everyone has faith (in Him).

What can we humans do, that Jesus Christ did not already do on our behalf?

Have faith? He was faithful.
Obey? He was perfectly obedient.
Do good works? What works would achieve more than His works?
Live holy? In the flesh, or by Christ's indwelling Spirit.

Honestly, I don't know what point you were trying to make with the above questions. But anyway, although Christ became sin on our behalf, we can and do sin, but Christ did not sin on our behalf.

The will of man is commanded to act in submission to the will of God.

ONLY the regenerate man is able to submit to the will of God in a faithful way that pleases the Father. But how do you reconcile the will of God, with the disobedience of men (and women :wink:)? When they disobey God, are they doing the will of God? If not, how can that be if God is sovereign?

Christians submit to the will of God through His graceful gift of the faith of Jesus Christ, who equips them and instills within them the desire to do so.

Are Christians always in sumbission to the will of God? Don't Christians sin?

Where is the freedom for Christians to act differently than their Lord?

To quote Paul in Romans 6:15 "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!"

No, there is not freedom to act differently than the Lord (we are either slaves to Christ or sin), but do we ever act differently than the Lord? Romans 7:23 "but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members."

It is not a false dichotomy to deny "freedom" of will, when even Jesus Christ, as our example, submitted His will entirely to the Father. Did you ever see Jesus act freely (autonomously), from the Law, the Word, or the Will of His Father?

There is a difference between "freedom" and "free will", I think it would help if you learn the difference between the two. To use Christ as an example is absurd. Christ was and is God in the flesh, I am not even close to being God. Do you not understand the total absurdity of asking; "Did you ever see Jesus act freely (autonomously), from the Law, the Word, or the Will of His Father?"? That's like asking me if God can create a taco so big, that even He cannot eat all of it.

For when this bunch teaches "free will," they are really teaching man can live autonomously from the sovereign control of God. They encourage such, and reveal such, when they infer that God is a tyrant if He does not allow His servants such freedom.

Dearest Nang, I spent the greater part of life as a Christian thinking like the "bunch". I wasn't born in a Reformed home, I was born in a theologically mixed home where Arminianism came to be the rule. I come from Arminian Baptist and Assembly of God roots. I understand where the "bunch" is coming from quite well, I used to be one of them. When God regenerated me though, I couldn't have described any system of theology to save my life. I didn't know what "Arminianism" or "Calvinism" is all about. But God saved me despite my ignorance. Be careful not to demonize those temples which God is working on, those whom are trying to grow in knowledge, despite all the endless name calling and mischaracterizations. Eventually God opened my eyes to the realization that the: puppet master, robot, tyrant claims are all strawmen.

(There is no in-between doctrinal position, here, friend. One is either "free" to act apart from God's control, or one is not. The teaching that man has "freedom" to act and thereby influence (or "restrict") God in any way, shape, or form, is a repeat of ancient heresy.)

Heads-up: :eek:

:sigh: You strain out a heresy and swallow the strawmen. Are you not familar with the "double" predestination view in which God is both actively and passively sovereign? One is only "free" insofar as what God sovereignly allows. Meaning that God does not actively control the sinners sin...for if He did, it would be complete nonesense to condemn the sin of the sinner. But it is impossible for God to sin, therefore He cannot be controlling the sin of sinners. Do you understand? God the Creator is directly responsible for first causes (Creation, the incarnation, the resurrection, etc.) , not second (creature) causes (sin).

I am new here, but it is now becoming obvious to me that false teaching of a very serious nature has established this site in the name of "theology," and has had a hay-day propogating their phoney views in the name of Jesus Christ.

But God is not mocked.

God will surely deal with this abomination in His own way and in His own time.

I do not know who you are talking to, but there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I am in Chirst, He is Lord of my life. I suggest taking the abomination talk into more mocking places, like the apologetics forum.

[freelight]

Many Calvinist accuse Arminians of having a low view of God. I assume this has to do with the Sovereignty of God. If God does not control every single act/event then that some how lessens Him... I think it is just the opposite. It is easy to see your plan enacted if you program the actors to do exactly what you want. A puppet master is neither very original or clever. But A God who can work through and around genuine human freedom/choice to see His ends established, is a God who is much more resourceful, clever and wise than the mere puppet master. This I believe is a much higher view of God...

It is this tension between the free-agency of man and the Sovereignty of God that makes for such debates,....however we must admit that our knowledge of these mysteries is imperfect although we may tend towards whatever school of thought on the issue, and then there are so many dimensions too within each school or cross-blends between the two...that things can get a little meshy after awhile :smile:

I think a balanced View holds to the Sovereignty of God in His own Right....while allowing genuine human freedom/choice within the parameters allowed by divine Providence. Evidently it appears we do have a certain liberty of choice in any situation at any given time, within the greater Matrix of the OverSoul of the ONE. Probing the extensions, dimensions, liberties, powers of creature free agency and Creator Sovereignty and concluding one view or another (as if any view could be substantiated 100%) is the fun at hand eh. Any presumption that devalues one of the freedoms or powers of creature or Creator could be re-examined/researched until a reasonable perspective could be held, until any more light affords itself.

I recommend the high-view would be the God-perspective, of course. - and that my friends is the 'ticket' - now who can get close enough in-to the MIND of God to get it? While the schools at hand have their stakes in the ground...I think there is still some room for probing.


paul

[Xmansmommy]

God as a despotic puppetmaster ... or God as a constantly-juggling re-arranger.

We either get a God that damns people to hell before they are even born, or a God who has to go to Plan B, and when that doesn't work, go to Plan C ... makes me wonder how many times He's had to cycle through the alphabet by now.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism are "low views" of God.

Justin, it seems so unlike you to say something like this. :frown: We're all trying to understand God just like you are. Each of us make a genuine effort to reconcile all of scripture on the issue. We're trying to be consistent even if we haven't fully understood everything. Is the, "we can't understand God" view any less low than the views you seem to be offended at? Christians believe that God has revealed a great deal about Himself in the scriptures. Yes, the fighting and ad hominem attacks get old. But not everyone involved in these discussions are out to attack others. Surely you've seen some interesting and thought provoking discussions here as well?

[seer]

God as a despotic puppetmaster ... or God as a constantly-juggling re-arranger.

We either get a God that damns people to hell before they are even born, or a God who has to go to Plan B, and when that doesn't work, go to Plan C ... makes me wonder how many times He's had to cycle through the alphabet by now.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism are "low views" of God.

You must be joking Justin. What do you have to offer - an etheral "something" that is quite apathetic to the plight of mankind.

[seer]

Because there's enough truth to the charicature that it does have to be mentioned. The "God can't prevent human choice, so he has to keep changing plans" is the logical conclusion of some of Seer's posts.

Where did I suggest that God "can't" prevent human choice? Of course He can - but chooses not to.

[seer]

It is this tension between the free-agency of man and the Sovereignty of God that makes for such debates,....however we must admit that our knowledge of these mysteries is imperfect although we may tend towards whatever school of thought on the issue, and then there are so many dimensions too within each school or cross-blends between the two...that things can get a little meshy after awhile :smile:

I think a balanced View holds to the Sovereignty of God in His own Right....while allowing genuine human freedom/choice within the parameters allowed by divine Providence. Evidently it appears we do have a certain liberty of choice in any situation at any given time, within the greater Matrix of the OverSoul of the ONE. Probing the extensions, dimensions, liberties, powers of creature free agency and Creator Sovereignty and concluding one view or another (as if any view could be substantiated 100%) is the fun at hand eh. Any presumption that devalues one of the freedoms or powers of creature or Creator could be re-examined/researched until a reasonable perspective could be held, until any more light affords itself.

I recommend the high-view would be the God-perspective, of course. - and that my friends is the 'ticket' - now who can get close enough in-to the MIND of God to get it? While the schools at hand have their stakes in the ground...I think there is still some room for probing.


paul

The "oversoul of the ONE" Paul? Rather new age isn't it? Was Jesus Christ the Son of God Paul? The only begotten?

[yxboom]

Because there's enough truth to the charicature that it does have to be mentioned. The "God can't prevent human choice, so he has to keep changing plans" is the logical conclusion of some of Seer's posts.

Where did I suggest that God "can't" prevent human choice? Of course He can - but chooses not to.
well now if we believed that God prevented human choice we would be Calvinists.

[seer]

well now if we believed that God prevented human choice we would be Calvinists.

Exactly...

[technomage]

Im a freewill theist so I am going to agree with Seer however, I do so not that God is incapable but God chooses to withhold. Why He does? most of the time... i dunno. I echo Abraham in that I simply rely on faith that God will do righteously.

Seer's far too free with the "This storm is the judgement of God" of late. As it stands, I'm forced to the conclusion that if Seer's god is accurate, He's got lousy pitching stats.

Pink Floyd, you infidel.
did nang tell you this?

I dunno--Nang, are you a Pink Floyd fan?

Rarely if never would i say i look down on anyone. they are usually granted honorary position as comic relief. just ask BV.

You don't ... but yxboom, you know there's a lot who do. For every Zipperhead on the Calvinist side, there's an Ormly on the Arminian side. Heck, I imagine there are also some in the OT camp.

And frankly, if I ever decided to go back to Christianity, that would be my biggest impediment.

[technomage]

You must be joking Justin. What do you have to offer - an etheral "something" that is quite apathetic to the plight of mankind.

Seer, that's a grossly inaccurate summation of my views. Please refrain from distorting my statement--it's not very becoming.

[technomage]

Justin, it seems so unlike you to say something like this.

Dearheart, as I told yxboom, yesterday was a rough day, and I was grumpier than I should have been.

[Xmansmommy]

Dearheart, as I told yxboom, yesterday was a rough day, and I was grumpier than I should have been.

Apology accepted. :hug:

[seer]

Seer, that's a grossly inaccurate summation of my views. Please refrain from distorting my statement--it's not very becoming.

How did we end our debate on the subject Justin? You could not even tell me if God had moral preferences (whether we should love our neighbors or hate them). You pretty much agreed that you knew little or nothing about God. Or that He simply could not communicate His attributes or mind to us. Which makes Him kind of worthless. You see Justin, you believe Christians have a low view of God - yet you offer nothing better - nothing that can be known at least.

And you may believe our God is severe, but at least He has, to a larger degree, revealed Himself to us. And is intimately involved with us. To the point of becoming one of us - and taking, as it were, His own medicine...

[seer]

Seer's far too free with the "This storm is the judgement of God" of late. As it stands, I'm forced to the conclusion that if Seer's god is accurate, He's got lousy pitching stats.

That's fine Justin. I could be wrong. But why the assumption - lousy pitching stats? How do you know that during these storms God did not take exactly who He wanted to take and leave exactly who He wanted to leave?

[technomage]

Seer's far too free with the "This storm is the judgement of God" of late. As it stands, I'm forced to the conclusion that if Seer's god is accurate, He's got lousy pitching stats.

That's fine Justin. I could be wrong. But why the assumption - lousy pitching stats?

On that, I'm not going off God's attributes, but your statements. "God judged New Orleans"--except he missed. That and the fact that if you insist that God is somehow judging us nationally, I'd say he's thinking small.

[technomage]

How did we end our debate on the subject Justin?

With you misunderstanding my position--and at this point, Seer, I'm forced to the conclusion that you deliberately refused to understand.

[seer]

On that, I'm not going off God's attributes, but your statements. "God judged New Orleans"--except he missed. That and the fact that if you insist that God is somehow judging us nationally, I'd say he's thinking small.

Justin, I do not think God missed N.O. And this may in fact be a national judgement. Quite possibly for our oil greed, as well as immorality. But who knows for sure. This though all christians agree on.

1. God is intimately involved with His creation.

2. He actually cares. Something you can not say - with any real conviction.

3. Whether He caused these storms or not - we know that He could have prevented them and didn't.

Given these beliefs we look at such events and see God's hand in them - in what fashion we don't always know...

[seer]

With you misunderstanding my position--and at this point, Seer, I'm forced to the conclusion that you deliberately refused to understand.


No Justin, I really tried to follow you. But you were all over the map. You could clear somethings up here. Does God care for us - and how do you know that fact, if He does?

[technomage]

Does God care for us - and how do you know that fact, if He does?

Seer, I've already answered this question, and several variations on it. But you insisted that if I could not definitively tell you that God has a moral preference, then that means God doesn't care.

That's a deliberate distortion of what I was saying, and frankly having my words twisted is not my idea of a fun time.

[seer]

Seer, I've already answered this question, and several variations on it. But you insisted that if I could not definitively tell you that God has a moral preference, then that means God doesn't care.

Well of course. You could not tell me anything definite about the character of God. That was the problem. How do you know He cares? That is a moral preference. This is not a distortion Justin. If you can not answer such questions then don't suggest that we have a low view of God. Low according to whom?

Ok, I'am off for a ride north on Rt.7 - New England is really beautiful this time of year. Catch ya later... Peace...

[freelight]

The "oversoul of the ONE" Paul? Rather new age isn't it? Was Jesus Christ the Son of God Paul? The only begotten?

Hi Seer,

Thats your observation, as I have my own way of desribing certain aspects of Deity and a creative flair for it. It means what it means but if you want an expounding -


Evidently it appears we do have a certain liberty of choice in any situation at any given time, within the greater Matrix of the OverSoul of the ONE.


God is ONE.....such a reference is simply referring to the Greater Body of God which is All that IS, all that exists. Since God is Infinite Intelligence(as 'Mind' or the 'OverSoul').....He is aware of all actuals and potentials within the Infinity of His BEING(Consciousness) - this includes all possible choices in any situation at any given time.

As to your other questions (if that aint bait what is) - I find them irrelevant to the threads topic....as that is a whole nother theological matter with so much invested by various believers.


paul

[Nang]

Nang, which verse condemns believers because they accept the terms, definitions and language God chose to use to describe Himself via the scriptures? Where do the scriptures call believing God's description of Himself blasphemy? Surely you are aware of the passage that says He made mankind/womankind in His image? I don't think I physically look like God so which attributes that you or I have are in the likeness of God? :eh:

Just because Scripture teaches, "man was created in the image of God," does not mean God is defined by man. That would be illogical.

We cannot learn about God by looking at ourselves; we can only learn about ourselves by looking at God.

The ultimate definition of God, is the revelation of the Man, Jesus Christ.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." Colossians 1:15

"Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person . . ." Hebrews 1:3a

Is Christ Absolute Ruler and King?

"Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, You are My Son. Today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel. Now therefore, be wise, O kings; be instructed, you judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are those who put their trust in Him." Psalm 2:6-12

What do you think Jesus thinks of those who infer that unless they restrict His rule by the exercise of their mortal wills, He is to be defined as a tyrant?

Bad mistake and dangerous to entertain such ~low~ thoughts, if you ask me . . .

Nang

[Xmansmommy]

Just because Scripture teaches, "man was created in the image of God," does not mean God is defined by man. That would be illogical.

We cannot learn about God by looking at ourselves; we can only learn about ourselves by looking at God.

The ultimate definition of God, is the revelation of the Man, Jesus Christ.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." Colossians 1:15

"Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person . . ." Hebrews 1:3a

Is Christ Absolute Ruler and King?

"Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, You are My Son. Today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel. Now therefore, be wise, O kings; be instructed, you judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are those who put their trust in Him." Psalm 2:6-12

What do you think Jesus thinks of those who infer that unless they restrict His rule by the exercise of their mortal wills, He is to be defined as a tyrant?

Bad mistake and dangerous to entertain such ~low~ thoughts, if you ask me . . .

Nang

I appreciate you taking the time to write all that out Nang. I'd be appreciative if you would answer the questions I asked though. Thanks.

[yxboom]

I appreciate you taking the time to write all that out Nang. I'd be appreciative if you would answer the questions I asked though. Thanks.
your question doesn't meet the criteria of her James White How-To-Sound-Like-An-Apologist flash cards.

[Nang]

I appreciate you taking the time to write all that out Nang. I'd be appreciative if you would answer the questions I asked though. Thanks.

You questions were answered, whether you see it or not.

If this slippery evasiveness is your M.O. :shifty:
I will not waste my time with you again.

Your mind must be closed. Or blinded.

Nang

[yxboom]

You questions were answered, whether you see it or not.

If this slippery evasiveness is your M.O. :shifty:
I will not waste my time with you again.

Your mind must be closed. Or blinded.

Nang
you arent gonna at least offer to send her some of your flash cards? ouch.

[Xmansmommy]

You questions were answered, whether you see it or not.

If this slippery evasiveness is your M.O. :shifty:
I will not waste my time with you again.

Your mind must be closed. Or blinded.

Nang

I'd ask you to pray for me but I realize that they would be in vain. God bless you Nang.

[yxboom]

I'd ask you to pray for me but I realize that they would be in vain. God bless you Nang.
just as long as nang doesn't ask you to pray for her everything should be alright.

[Xmansmommy]

just as long as nang doesn't ask you to pray for her everything should be alright.

OUCH! :rofl:

[seer]

God is ONE.....such a reference is simply referring to the Greater Body of God which is All that IS, all that exists. Since God is Infinite Intelligence(as 'Mind' or the 'OverSoul').....He is aware of all actuals and potentials within the Infinity of His BEING(Consciousness) - this includes all possible choices in any situation at any given time.

So you are a pantheist? Does that mean that God IS the holocaust and child rape too?

[freelight]

God is ONE.....such a reference is simply referring to the Greater Body of God which is All that IS, all that exists. Since God is Infinite Intelligence(as 'Mind' or the 'OverSoul').....He is aware of all actuals and potentials within the Infinity of His BEING(Consciousness) - this includes all possible choices in any situation at any given time.

So you are a pantheist? Does that mean that God IS the holocaust and child rape too?

I am not a pure pantheist....and theologically lean more towards panentheism. My leanings towards the metaphysical concepts of 'God being All that IS' and 'God is All' are more ontological and mindal....as God is the Original Mind-Substance and Spirit-Source for all that exists and there is nothing that exists outside of 'God'.

To you second question I would say NO. God IS. - if you want to add what you want onto what God is......then you would have to affirm only that which God Is....and what is that? - God is Spirit, Love, Light, Truth, Mind, etc. If God is Only these things...being aspects of His divine nature...then he cannot be the holocaust or child rape...or whatever other evil, malicious, terrible sins or depravations occur in the realms of imperfection or unreality(darkness). Now we get into deeper more complex issues such as the mystery of Evil and how could evil exist if God the All-Good is omnipresent, etc. This is a huge wonderful subject with many dimensions. For now,.....since God is LOVE....he could not be those things that you inferred - now as to how those things could exist or be allowed by God or seem to exist in Gods Universe is another study.






paul

[seer]

I am not a pure pantheist....and theologically lean more towards panentheism. My leanings towards the metaphysical concepts of 'God being All that IS' and 'God is All' are more ontological and mindal....as God is the Original Mind-Substance and Spirit-Source for all that exists and there is nothing that exists outside of 'God'.

So why are you a panentheist?

To you second question I would say NO. God IS. - if you want to add what you want onto what God is......then you would have to affirm only that which God Is....and what is that? - God is Spirit, Love, Light, Truth, Mind, etc. If God is Only these things...being aspects of His divine nature...then he cannot be the holocaust or child rape...or whatever other evil, malicious, terrible sins or depravations occur in the realms of imperfection or unreality(darkness). Now we get into deeper more complex issues such as the mystery of Evil and how could evil exist if God the All-Good is omnipresent, etc. This is a huge wonderful subject with many dimensions. For now,.....since God is LOVE....he could not be those things that you inferred - now as to how those things could exist or be allowed by God or seem to exist in Gods Universe is another study.

You are saying two different things Paul. If God is not evil - then God is not "all." Something exists outside of God.

[freelight]

I am not a pure pantheist....and theologically lean more towards panentheism. My leanings towards the metaphysical concepts of 'God being All that IS' and 'God is All' are more ontological and mindal....as God is the Original Mind-Substance and Spirit-Source for all that exists and there is nothing that exists outside of 'God'.

So why are you a panentheist?

This school just happens to be more resonant with my own soul sense of the Universe and God.

To you second question I would say NO. God IS. - if you want to add what you want onto what God is......then you would have to affirm only that which God Is....and what is that? - God is Spirit, Love, Light, Truth, Mind, etc. If God is Only these things...being aspects of His divine nature...then he cannot be the holocaust or child rape...or whatever other evil, malicious, terrible sins or depravations occur in the realms of imperfection or unreality(darkness). Now we get into deeper more complex issues such as the mystery of Evil and how could evil exist if God the All-Good is omnipresent, etc. This is a huge wonderful subject with many dimensions. For now,.....since God is LOVE....he could not be those things that you inferred - now as to how those things could exist or be allowed by God or seem to exist in Gods Universe is another study.

You are saying two different things Paul. If God is not evil - then God is not "all." Something exists outside of God.


I am still exploring the dimensions of these subject-issues. If we assume that something exists outside of God....and if there is something that actually does.....then we would have to qualify our statement that God is All by explaining the existence of evil as something 'unreal' or 'unsubstancial'...being that such does not originate with God or is upheld by God - but we still have to explain why the phenomena of evil appears to exist and this can get into some tricky trails. In the meantime...I can still hold that God is ONE and He/She is All...in that God is the Sole ONE Ground of Being as there is no other! Now as far as 'evil' goes....if God is omnipresent...then how and where can evil exist? WEll...if God is All-Good....it cannot exist in God. So.....how can it be real? How can it be substancial? How can it be valid? - these are just some questions. For NOW however,...God is LOVE....and is Present here in Totality. Whatever is less or sinful(incomplete, missing the mark of the full perception of Love) must be a condition of finite or mortal mind - a human anomoly/imperfection/condition/state. In Gods MIND however....does sin, evil, imperfection, darkness exist? Much depends on our minding or where we decide to rest or attune our consciousness - 'to be carnally minded is death, to be spiritually minded is life and peace'. So...as a devotee of Truth if I set my mind only on the SPIRIT...then all that is of the Spirit becomes mine (Life, peace, joy and all the fruits of Love). All that is of the flesh, of humanhood,..the finite, mortal....only tends towards death because it has not the fullness of the Eternal which only the Spirit possesses. This is a huge field to prospect.....so a prospecting I go :smile:





paul

[seer]

This school just happens to be more resonant with my own soul sense of the Universe and God.

So feelings equal truth now?


I am still exploring the dimensions of these subject-issues. If we assume that something exists outside of God....and if there is something that actually does.....then we would have to qualify our statement that God is All by explaining the existence of evil as something 'unreal' or 'unsubstancial'...being that such does not originate with God or is upheld by God - but we still have to explain why the phenomena of evil appears to exist and this can get into some tricky trails. In the meantime...I can still hold that God is ONE and He/She is All...in that God is the Sole ONE Ground of Being as there is no other! Now as far as 'evil' goes....if God is omnipresent...then how and where can evil exist? WEll...if God is All-Good....it cannot exist in God. So.....how can it be real? How can it be substancial? How can it be valid?

Just ask the Holocaust victims if evil was real or valid Paul. Your logic is quite disturbing...

[freelight]

This school just happens to be more resonant with my own soul sense of the Universe and God.

So feelings equal truth now?

Not necessarily,....but as I shared,......equipped within my consciousness are faculties that employ logic, reason, intution, and other kinds of sense - some call it 'intelligence'. :lol: We all use these faculties to one degree or another within our capacities (these conditioned by so many factors). Truth is multi-dimensional....besides being the Sole/Soul Subtance of the Living ONE who is 'God'. Truth is living and dynamic.


I am still exploring the dimensions of these subject-issues. If we assume that something exists outside of God....and if there is something that actually does.....then we would have to qualify our statement that God is All by explaining the existence of evil as something 'unreal' or 'unsubstancial'...being that such does not originate with God or is upheld by God - but we still have to explain why the phenomena of evil appears to exist and this can get into some tricky trails. In the meantime...I can still hold that God is ONE and He/She is All...in that God is the Sole ONE Ground of Being as there is no other! Now as far as 'evil' goes....if God is omnipresent...then how and where can evil exist? WEll...if God is All-Good....it cannot exist in God. So.....how can it be real? How can it be substancial? How can it be valid?

Just ask the Holocaust victims if evil was real or valid Paul. Your logic is quite disturbing......


Notice I was speculating over the implications of Omnipresence relative to evils existence. I did not give an absolute statement that evil was 'invalid' or 'unreal'....however there are dimensions of it that surely are(or seem to be) when compared to the absolue value of 'good'. I guess you would have to explore and have surveyed this issue in the schools of thought that I have...then you would maybe see a little where I was coming from and going...let alone the premise of a pantheist or panentheist purview(there are dimensional differences). Like I shared....there is much more to discover. The Holocaust victims suffered a great deal - I dont deny suffering...its quite a real experience for us humans. I dont think we'll solve the mystery of evil right here in a few paragraphs...but you are free to share your 'beliefs'. Nevertheless,....since I do in a sense hold to the 3 classic OMNI's - 'God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent (although these could be contested in some dimensions)......I see Truth as being Triumphant...and divine Presence thru-out the Whole of Existence being primal and all-glorious. This is my sense of God in the Absolute Realm of Reality. Evil and all its relatives....the things we experience in this mortal, finite, evolutional dimension in time and space are relative.






paul

[Calvinist4Him]

It was, but C4Him is my friend. I love the guy.

That comment made me feel good. I dunno whether to :hug: ya or :cheers: or :highfive:. I used to be the kind of guy who didn't mind giving anybody a hug...but I'm not as much of a hugger as I used to be. I don't mind hugging people I know though, so I wouldn't mind hugging you...but if you are not hugging type, a gentle pat on the shoulders is always acceptable. I'm not a beer drinker so a :cheers: wouldn't be the same if you are, but I've always liked root beer. :teeth: A :highfive: doesn't quite convey friendship and love...I mean, people shake one another's hand all the time without having friendship or love in mind. So until somebody comes up with a gentle pat on the shoulders smile, a :hug: will have to do. Thanks brother, for sharing the grace, God has given you. :smile:

[seer]

Not necessarily,....but as I shared,......equipped within my consciousness are faculties that employ logic, reason, intution, and other kinds of sense - some call it 'intelligence'. We all use these faculties to one degree or another within our capacities (these conditioned by so many factors). Truth is multi-dimensional....besides being the Sole/Soul Subtance of the Living ONE who is 'God'. Truth is living and dynamic.

Let me suggest that logic, reason and intution are not enough to inform us about God. They only go so far. We must have revelation. God must open Himself up... Heck we can not even understand a fellow human being apart from self revelation...

Notice I was speculating over the implications of Omnipresence relative to evils existence. I did not give an absolute statement that evil was 'invalid' or 'unreal'....however there are dimensions of it that surely are(or seem to be) when compared to the absolue value of 'good'. I guess you would have to explore and have surveyed this issue in the schools of thought that I have...then you would maybe see a little where I was coming from and going...let alone the premise of a pantheist or panentheist purview(there are dimensional differences). Like I shared....there is much more to discover. The Holocaust victims suffered a great deal - I dont deny suffering...its quite a real experience for us humans. I dont think we'll solve the mystery of evil right here in a few paragraphs...but you are free to share your 'beliefs'. Nevertheless,....since I do in a sense hold to the 3 classic OMNI's - 'God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent (although these could be contested in some dimensions)......I see Truth as being Triumphant...and divine Presence thru-out the Whole of Existence being primal and all-glorious. This is my sense of God in the Absolute Realm of Reality. Evil and all its relatives....the things we experience in this mortal, finite, evolutional dimension in time and space are relative.

I guess your logic, reason and intution are not getting you very far. I mean Paul, you can't have it both ways. You can suggest that God IS ALL, then turn around and exclude evil. Either evil is as much God as anything else, or God is not ALL

And what do you mean the holocaust is relative? Relative to what?

Also Paul, since we are on the subject, let me ask you another question. Does God have moral preferences? Does He prefer that we love our neighbors or hate and kill our neighbors? And how can we know what those preferences are?

[freelight]

Notice I was speculating over the implications of Omnipresence relative to evils existence. I did not give an absolute statement that evil was 'invalid' or 'unreal'....however there are dimensions of it that surely are(or seem to be) when compared to the absolue value of 'good'. I guess you would have to explore and have surveyed this issue in the schools of thought that I have...then you would maybe see a little where I was coming from and going...let alone the premise of a pantheist or panentheist purview(there are dimensional differences). Like I shared....there is much more to discover. The Holocaust victims suffered a great deal - I dont deny suffering...its quite a real experience for us humans. I dont think we'll solve the mystery of evil right here in a few paragraphs...but you are free to share your 'beliefs'. Nevertheless,....since I do in a sense hold to the 3 classic OMNI's - 'God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent (although these could be contested in some dimensions)......I see Truth as being Triumphant...and divine Presence thru-out the Whole of Existence being primal and all-glorious. This is my sense of God in the Absolute Realm of Reality. Evil and all its relatives....the things we experience in this mortal, finite, evolutional dimension in time and space are relative.

I guess your logic, reason and intution are not getting you very far. I mean Paul, you can't have it both ways. You can suggest that God IS ALL, then turn around and exclude evil. Either evil is as much God as anything else, or God is not ALL

It is these tensions that I have yet to explore more....then I'll be able to expound better. All views are subject to modifications - would be nice if some had the same attitude. My views are exploratory, never dogmatic. I gave you a link on my thread 'Exploring the divine nature' on the other thread - should help to see my perspective, if your so inclined. Alot has to do with our perception/conception and definition of 'God' ....which affects our cosmology. Heres the link again -

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=700135#post700135



Also Paul, since we are on the subject, let me ask you another question. Does God have moral preferences?

His preferences would be aligned with His divine nature/will/constitution. So YES. (if you would humanize God in a way that He must have 'prefrences' like a human does...if you must use that term).

Does He prefer that we love our neighbors or hate and kill our neighbors?

Uh,.....lets see...thats a hard one.


And how can we know what those preferences are?


Common sense for starters. Most folks are born with a conscience. Also the more one develops their soul in divine Love and grows in grace...their knowledge of God is more intimate so they know and do His Will.





paul

[seer]

Does He prefer that we love our neighbors or hate and kill our neighbors?

Uh,.....lets see...thats a hard one.

A hard one? That is a basic question. And if you don't know this then why are you offering information about God...


And how can we know what those preferences are?


Common sense for starters. Most folks are born with a conscience. Also the more one develops their soul in divine Love and grows in grace...their knowledge of God is more intimate so they know and do His Will.

You just said you didn't even know if God prefered us to love our neighbor or not. And how do you know if your conscience is more correct than Hitler's or Stalin's? Nature alone can not logically lead one to God's moral preferences...


It is these tensions that I have yet to explore more....then I'll be able to expound better. All views are subject to modifications - would be nice if some had the same attitude. My views are exploratory, never dogmatic. I gave you a link on my thread 'Exploring the divine nature' on the other thread - should help to see my perspective, if your so inclined. Alot has to do with our perception/conception and definition of 'God' ....which affects our cosmology. Heres the link again

Thanks for the link. I have been to your web site and have a fairly good grasp of what you believe. Really, what you are espousing is ignorance. And why would I want to be ignorant of God? Also, all settled truth is "dogmatic." 2 + 2 = 4 - that is dogmatic...

But back to evil. Either God is not ALL or God IS evil. Which do you choose?

[smaller]

But back to evil. Either God is not ALL or God IS evil. Which do you choose?

Why this simplistic nonsense j? There are certainly other views on this matter.

The Position of Divine Perfection can certainly have priority and reign OVER both good and evil and not be either of these things OR be ruled by either position of good or evil.

This either or scenario you keep dragging out is only an argument by the exclusion of other possibilities, and is therefore quite worthless.

Heaven forbid anyone would show weakness around you theological vultures.

enjoy!

smaller

[seer]

The Position of Divine Perfection can certainly have priority and reign OVER both good and evil and not be either of these things OR be ruled by either position of good or evil.

Then God IS not ALL. Good and evil would exist outside of God, though He may rule over both. They would not be part of His being. It's simple logic Eel. It can not be both A and not A at the same moment...

[smaller]

The Position of Divine Perfection can certainly have priority and reign OVER both good and evil and not be either of these things OR be ruled by either position of good or evil.

Then God IS not ALL.

You act like evil just hopped up out of nowhere and that God cannot and does not use and direct same when there is an overwhelming body of evidence in the O.T. that this is in fact the CASE.

God uses and directs EVIL and I must presume that PERFECTION has a better grip on these "things" than seer's imaginations. This does not make God "evil" nor does this make God a part of EVIL other than that "all things" SERVE HIM because who He Is.

Perfection can and will probably surprise us both in these matters of evil.


Good and evil would exist outside of God, though He may rule over both.

No "thing" exists apart from God. Who are you kidding? God raised enemies to "test" Israel both within and without continually. To say that these things exist "outside of God" when we ALL live and move and have our "being" in Him (Acts 17:25-31) doesn't make sense either j.

God can be "in" His creation but this does not make HIM the sum totality OF His creation. He will ALWAYS be Greater than any "thing" and those things include both "good and evil" neither of which are Perfection.


They would not be part of His being. It's simple logic Eel. It can not be both A and not A at the same moment...

Your assumption here is that Perfection is somehow stained/tainted by the existence, use and direction of evil when in fact evil serves God's Purposes just as all things do because of WHAT AND WHO GOD IS...Perfection.

Got descriptions of Perfection? I don't other than God IS Love and that form of Perfect Love is far beyond what I may think He may be capable of. Who knows what evil is in HIS HANDS in the long run?

So no, your argument is quite hollow in the face of Perfection.

enjoy!

smaller

[seer]

No "thing" exists apart from God. Who are you kidding? God raised enemies to "test" Israel both within and without continually. To say that these things exist "outside of God" when we ALL live and move and have our "being" in Him (Acts 17:25-31) doesn't make sense either j.

God can be "in" His creation but this does not make HIM the sum totality OF His creation. He will ALWAYS be Greater than any "thing" and those things include both "good and evil" neither of which are Perfection.

So is God evil Eel? Not can He use evil. Or even create evil. IS He evil...

[smaller]

No "thing" exists apart from God. Who are you kidding? God raised enemies to "test" Israel both within and without continually. To say that these things exist "outside of God" when we ALL live and move and have our "being" in Him (Acts 17:25-31) doesn't make sense either j.

God can be "in" His creation but this does not make HIM the sum totality OF His creation. He will ALWAYS be Greater than any "thing" and those things include both "good and evil" neither of which are Perfection.

So is God evil Eel? Not can He use evil. Or even create evil. IS He evil...

God is NO THING. Evil is a "created thing" just as "all things" are.

God can USE any THING because of who He Is without making Himself the same as that "thing."

Whatever He Is, only He knows in totality and therefore only He knows what He can do and what He is capable of doing, using, etc.

Evil is not "eternal."

God Is.

[yxboom]

God is NO THING. Evil is a "created thing" just as "all things" are.

God can USE any THING because of who He Is without making Himself the same as that "thing."

Whatever He Is, only He knows in totality and therefore only He knows what He can do and what He is capable of doing, using, etc.

Evil is not "eternal."

God Is.
how does one create evil? do you need a lot of garlic and parsley?

[Nang]

how does one create evil? do you need a lot of garlic and parsley?


Let me see . . .

I calculate you must run just about an inch deep.

Right?

Nang

[yxboom]

Let me see . . .

I calculate you must run just about an inch deep.

Right?

Nang
as God's mouthpiece surely you could ask Him

[smaller]

how does one create evil?

Perhaps you can ask Perfection someday. He could make you an "expert."

[freelight]

seer: Does He prefer that we love our neighbors or hate and kill our neighbors?


freelight: Uh,.....lets see...thats a hard one.

--------------------





seer: A hard one? That is a basic question. And if you don't know this then why are you offering information about God...

freelight: Did you actually think I could not figure out what God prefers out of the options you supplied????? wow. Also its interesting that you did not see that my response was pure jest, showcasing the absurdity of your asking such a question.

----------------------





seer: And how can we know what those preferences are?

freelight: Common sense for starters. Most folks are born with a conscience. Also the more one develops their soul in divine Love and grows in grace...their knowledge of God is more intimate so they know and do His Will.


---------------------




seer: You just said you didn't even know if God prefered us to love our neighbor or not. And how do you know if your conscience is more correct than Hitler's or Stalin's? Nature alone can not logically lead one to God's moral preferences...

freelight: all are born with conscience - one may develop such in the Light or obscure it with darkness(sin)...but all have it. The inward impress of divine law (moral sense) is innate in the conscience. With regeneration and continued intimacy with God in grace.....these laws are further engraved in the heart and mind attuning one to divine knowledge/knowing.


--------------------


seer: You just said you didn't even know if God prefered us to love our neighbor or not. And how do you know if your conscience is more correct than Hitler's or Stalin's? Nature alone can not logically lead one to God's moral preferences...

freelight: It is these tensions that I have yet to explore more....then I'll be able to expound better. All views are subject to modifications - would be nice if some had the same attitude. My views are exploratory, never dogmatic. I gave you a link on my thread 'Exploring the divine nature' on the other thread - should help to see my perspective, if your so inclined. Alot has to do with our perception/conception and definition of 'God' ....which affects our cosmology. Heres the link again



------------------------




seer: Thanks for the link. I have been to your web site and have a fairly good grasp of what you believe. Really, what you are espousing is ignorance. And why would I want to be ignorant of God? Also, all settled truth is "dogmatic." 2 + 2 = 4 - that is dogmatic...
But back to evil. Either God is not ALL or God IS evil. Which do you choose?


freelight: The View that God is All is still valid in its own dimensions within a contextual cosmology, for God is the Sole Original Power and Presence thru-out the Totality of Existence. There is more in this teaching for those who desire to study theontology.

I am still exploring this view in the realm of Absolute Truth from the God perspective concerning the problem of 'evil'. God is not evil. God is still Omnipresent however. This may best be served by starting a new thread. Will look into. Smallers last post was right on. The ontology of God is Self-evident as Original and Eternal BEING. This divine Being is all-inclusive because all things are included in Infinite Intelligence(Light). This would include definitives of good and/or evil on relative planes of perception. Gods Being however is not conditioned or defined exclusively by any relative quality or condition...He being the Sole Condition existing.....as the ONE Living Truth/Reality. The differentials of good and evil are swallowed up in the Totality of the ONE BEING that God IS. The glory of the ONE is all-pervading and wholly Radiant...from the Absolute View of Spirit. In the Spirit of the Omnipotent ONE there is only Life, Light, Truth, Reality, divine Being, Mind. As shared previously....God IS. This is absolute Truth.....the Self-existing One....the All, the Absolute.











paul

[freelight]

God is NO THING. Evil is a "created thing" just as "all things" are.

God can USE any THING because of who He Is without making Himself the same as that "thing."

Whatever He Is, only He knows in totality and therefore only He knows what He can do and what He is capable of doing, using, etc.

Evil is not "eternal."

God Is.


Excellent in-sights on divine Being. :smile: and interesting perspectives on 'evil'. Most traditional and metaphysical theology generally posits that God is omni-potent, omniscient and omnipresent. Because evil appears to makes its appearance in the finite, mortal realms of time and space(wherever imperfection and relativity exists)....this does not make God evil. Even if we dont take a more pantheistic view of God being All(of varying dimensional qualifications or perspectives).....the existence of evil must be taking place within the allowance of God by some default, anomoly or imperfection. This is allowed and accepted within traditional theology....while it is still assumed that God retains his distinct and eternal holiness of Being...this Being being wholly Good, pure, loving, all-harmonious. This evil is allowed by the Supreme Being to exist...but is apart from this Being....(somehow)existing outside of Deity in a dimension of its own. In this traditional venue....there is still the element of the mystery of evils existence brought about somehow by a falling away from divine Perfection/Love....thru the variables of free will and other factors thought to be responsible for 'evil'.

Whether I take on the 'God is All' Understanding or the more Traditional view of God......both views maintain that God is Pure Light, Love, Truth, Spirit, this divine Being being wholly Self-Radiant and Fully Perfect, Holy....being impossible for any sin, darkness, imperfection to exist within the Being of DEITY. The schools that hold to the 'God is All' View...see things from Gods perspective or the View from the Absolute. In this Awareness of God there is only God. God is All there IS. God is the Sole Mind, Being Existing....and all things that 'are'...exist within the Mind that God IS....for nothing can exist outside of God the ONE - all that is in God and of God then is made/created by Mind for its enjoyment...as all things serve His purposes.....and ultimately as the scriptures declare....Gods fullness of divine BEING will pervade the totality of existence on all planes.....for in the Consummation/Restoration of all things God will be All in all. In Truth(God-Consciousness) however,...in the absolute realm of divine Perception/Intelligence.....God is already ALL.....He being conscious only of His own infinite Being, perfection and beauty. Anything that is outside of God is not true, substancial, valid, real. Evil and its fruits exist only in the relative world of duality....where there is imperfection, evolution, deviation of will, darkness(ignorance of God/light/Truth). Since all of these imperfections cannot exist in the Absolute Domain of DEITY....where do they exist? this is where some schools such as christian science, some splinter groups and independent schools figure that evil is essentially 'unreal', 'unsubstancial', 'ignorance', 'illusion' - in comparive value when viewed in the light of the All-Good, the Perfect. No matter what evil seems to be doing in its own dimension of existence....Gods Allness of Being, His divine Perfection remains Holy and untainted. As I abide in His Spirit and mind the things of the Spirit.....I AM conscious only of God. In this Awarenes and abiding in His Spirit....is there anything else besides God??? In the Light(gnosis) of God...THERE IS ONLY GOD. - no 'other'! or none besides. The finite human mind cannot fathom this...but when one begins to open to the Higher/Greater view of Omnipresence...he begins to see that God is OMNI......and because He IS......all power, honor, glory are HIS....He being the Sole BEING being!

I will stop there as one must explore these venues for himself....as such a study merits diligence.




paul

[seer]

Common sense for starters. Most folks are born with a conscience. Also the more one develops their soul in divine Love and grows in grace...their knowledge of God is more intimate so they know and do His Will.

Why love Paul? How do you know that your conscience reflects the preferences of God in any real sense?

all are born with conscience - one may develop such in the Light or obscure it with darkness(sin)...but all have it. The inward impress of divine law (moral sense) is innate in the conscience. With regeneration and continued intimacy with God in grace.....these laws are further engraved in the heart and mind attuning one to divine knowledge/knowing.

Even children display a high degree of selfisness, it's inherent in our natures. Why do you think that God prefers light to darkness in the moral sense? Since God IS ALL. I mean really Paul, you are making some dogmatic statements about God here...


BTW - I did start another thread: "For Freelight on God..." On this board...

[smaller]

Excellent in-sights on divine Being. :smile: and interesting perspectives on 'evil'. Most traditional and metaphysical theology generally posits that God is omni-potent, omniscient and omnipresent. Because evil appears to makes its appearance in the finite, mortal realms of time and space(wherever imperfection and relativity exists)....this does not make God evil. Even if we dont take a more pantheistic view of God being All(of varying dimensional qualifications or perspectives).....the existence of evil must be taking place within the allowance of God by some default, anomoly or imperfection. This is allowed and accepted within traditional theology....while it is still assumed that God retains his distinct and eternal holiness of Being...this Being being wholly Good, pure, loving, all-harmonious. This evil is allowed by the Supreme Being to exist...but is apart from this Being....(somehow)existing outside of Deity in a dimension of its own. In this traditional venue....there is still the element of the mystery of evils existence brought about somehow by a falling away from divine Perfection/Love....thru the variables of free will and other factors thought to be responsible for 'evil'.

Whether I take on the 'God is All' Understanding or the more Traditional view of God......both views maintain that God is Pure Light, Love, Truth, Spirit, this divine Being being wholly Self-Radiant and Fully Perfect, Holy....being impossible for any sin, darkness, imperfection to exist within the Being of DEITY. The schools that hold to the 'God is All' View...see things from Gods perspective or the View from the Absolute. In this Awareness of God there is only God. God is All there IS. God is the Sole Mind, Being Existing....and all things that 'are'...exist within the Mind that God IS....for nothing can exist outside of God the ONE - all that is in God and of God then is made/created by Mind for its enjoyment...as all things serve His purposes.....and ultimately as the scriptures declare....Gods fullness of divine BEING will pervade the totality of existence on all planes.....for in the Consummation/Restoration of all things God will be All in all. In Truth(God-Consciousness) however,...in the absolute realm of divine Perception/Intelligence.....God is already ALL.....He being conscious only of His own infinite Being, perfection and beauty. Anything that is outside of God is not true, substancial, valid, real. Evil and its fruits exist only in the relative world of duality....where there is imperfection, evolution, deviation of will, darkness(ignorance of God/light/Truth). Since all of these imperfections cannot exist in the Absolute Domain of DEITY....where do they exist? this is where some schools such as christian science, some splinter groups and independent schools figure that evil is essentially 'unreal', 'unsubstancial', 'ignorance', 'illusion' - in comparive value when viewed in the light of the All-Good, the Perfect. No matter what evil seems to be doing in its own dimension of existence....Gods Allness of Being, His divine Perfection remains Holy and untainted. As I abide in His Spirit and mind the things of the Spirit.....I AM conscious only of God. In this Awarenes and abiding in His Spirit....is there anything else besides God??? In the Light(gnosis) of God...THERE IS ONLY GOD. - no 'other'! or none besides. The finite human mind cannot fathom this...but when one begins to open to the Higher/Greater view of Omnipresence...he begins to see that God is OMNI......and because He IS......all power, honor, glory are HIS....He being the Sole BEING being!

I will stop there as one must explore these venues for himself....as such a study merits diligence.

paul

I appreciate your views on this information Paul.

In this drill of observing creation what would we really expect to find in the entire schema of creation on any comparative basis to Perfection undefinable?

The obvious finding in creation would be automatically a condition or state of less than Perfection. This does not mean His creation exists outside of Him, but as observed to seer the entirety of every single "thing" that ever was or ever will be will NEVER equal the sum totality of Who or What God Is.

This condition of being less than Perfection then results in the state of "good and evil." And why not? This does not make anything in creation Perfection in the God sense of Perfection, but certainly makes "all things" subjective perfection as it pertains to uniqueness and individualism. God would appear to take great delight in the minutiae of His Subjectivity as it pertains to the sheer complexity of the creation from any perspective and one would presume that some deal of pleasure is derived from the creation for Perfection.

In these respective roles of unique individualism there is then a perfect devil, made exactly for the role intended, serving God's Purposes down to the finest detail. And things of goodness refined and perfected to a nearly infinite degree by a form of perfect evil as the dross.

Paul the Apostle displays his own excellent perspective on these matters of evil when stating that the allowance, selection, creation, use of evil results in the opportunity for God to exhibit one of His Divine Qualities, MERCY.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

That scripture set is quite a mouthful if not handled with care. It was not Pharoah's power in him, but God's. And in any honest assessment of same Pharoah would then be the recipient of God's Intended Demonstration, that of being the recipient of Divine Mercy. Romans 11:32 states that all men will receive this mercy.

And this observation instantly brings confusion. Why would God allow evil if it was really only Him that was really behind it all? I can only surmise that God is Greater than the sum total of any evil, and that the use of evil is IN HIS HANDS. I cannot say what the ultimate outcome of His creation and use of evil will be OTHER than that His Divine Quality of Mercy is and will be shown as beyond question Superior over evil and His Mercy is facilitated and aroused by evil and the creation and allowance of evil then SERVES to enhance His Divine Quality of Mercy.

The confused questioner then asks himself this question in Romans 9:

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

And the only logical conclusion is NO ONE. Not man, not the devil. Not any thing. Every single detail is IN HIS HANDS.

And Paul postulates a WHAT IF? I find interest in Paul's statement as it nearly appeals to the imagination of the mind.

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

This statement borders on a "what about it" statement as if it were nearly a SO WHAT, but it is an appeal to the imagination under the flag of "what if."

So I (personally and subjectively) take up the term "what if" and I find that the goal here is to show God's Wrath to that which is fitted to destruction, evil, that God really hates YET uses.

He is willing to SHOW this wrath against evil by making and allowing temporal evil to exist. Even directing and controlling same. On the Grand Scale of creation He says look, here is TEMPORAL EVIL and it's TEMPORAL WORKS and ALL THESE THINGS will come to an utter and complete NOTHING because these things ARE NOT WORTHY of eternal habitation or survival.

The sum total of the existence of our present creation then involves both a lesson and a testing for the beneficiaries of this present creation. US. God certainly didn't need this whole deal. WE DO!

And here are the beneficiaries of the entire creation:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I am going to stop here and savor this understanding for awhile, because I know that every detail of this entire world and everything that has ever existed in this present environment is for my personal benefit. It is sometimes too much for me to contemplate, this expression of God's Love to us ALL.

"26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

I have seen this time in my heart and this will come to pass for ALL MANKIND.

Let the naysayers be used by EVIL to make those statements to God's Offspring, "YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE."

I know this also serves God's Purposes.

enjoy!

smaller

[freelight]

Hi smaller,



It is apparent that Universal Salvation based upon the majesty, omnipotence, glory of Gods Supernal LOVE is the highest most glorious View being....seeing that divine Will is Ultimately satisfied within Its own sufficiency to accomplish its divine Plan.(even with the contingencies of so called 'free will').

Since God is the Original ONE....all that comes from Him shall return to Him for there is no 'other'....and in the Restoration of all things the full conscious realization of Gods All-ness of Being shall be Self-Radiant(including all that exists in His Infinite Body) - "the earth shall be FILLED with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, even as the waters cover the sea".

But as I shared with seer......one 'can' abide or keep his mind within the realm of the Absolute(divine Perfection/God-Consciousness) where God already IS the ALL, or the Supreme ONE BEING. - in this realm of omniversality....God really is All! Only in the relative realm of creation and time/space interplays in the finite universes does it 'appear' that God will thru the process of evolution or time....become All in all as so called 'evil' is overcome/vanquished as LIFE swallows up death and divine Will is wholly Triumphant.

It is these views spanning the absolute and relative dimensions of Life that I currently am navigating.








paul

[seer]

I appreciate your views on this information Paul.

In this drill of observing creation what would we really expect to find in the entire schema of creation on any comparative basis to Perfection undefinable?

The obvious finding in creation would be automatically a condition or state of less than Perfection. This does not mean His creation exists outside of Him, but as observed to seer the entirety of every single "thing" that ever was or ever will be will NEVER equal the sum totality of Who or What God Is.

This condition of being less than Perfection then results in the state of "good and evil." And why not? This does not make anything in creation Perfection in the God sense of Perfection, but certainly makes "all things" subjective perfection as it pertains to uniqueness and individualism. God would appear to take great delight in the minutiae of His Subjectivity as it pertains to the sheer complexity of the creation from any perspective and one would presume that some deal of pleasure is derived from the creation for Perfection.

In these respective roles of unique individualism there is then a perfect devil, made exactly for the role intended, serving God's Purposes down to the finest detail. And things of goodness refined and perfected to a nearly infinite degree by a form of perfect evil as the dross.

Paul the Apostle displays his own excellent perspective on these matters of evil when stating that the allowance, selection, creation, use of evil results in the opportunity for God to exhibit one of His Divine Qualities, MERCY.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

That scripture set is quite a mouthful if not handled with care. It was not Pharoah's power in him, but God's. And in any honest assessment of same Pharoah would then be the recipient of God's Intended Demonstration, that of being the recipient of Divine Mercy. Romans 11:32 states that all men will receive this mercy.

And this observation instantly brings confusion. Why would God allow evil if it was really only Him that was really behind it all? I can only surmise that God is Greater than the sum total of any evil, and that the use of evil is IN HIS HANDS. I cannot say what the ultimate outcome of His creation and use of evil will be OTHER than that His Divine Quality of Mercy is and will be shown as beyond question Superior over evil and His Mercy is facilitated and aroused by evil and the creation and allowance of evil then SERVES to enhance His Divine Quality of Mercy.

The confused questioner then asks himself this question in Romans 9:

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

And the only logical conclusion is NO ONE. Not man, not the devil. Not any thing. Every single detail is IN HIS HANDS.

And Paul postulates a WHAT IF? I find interest in Paul's statement as it nearly appeals to the imagination of the mind.

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

This statement borders on a "what about it" statement as if it were nearly a SO WHAT, but it is an appeal to the imagination under the flag of "what if."

So I (personally and subjectively) take up the term "what if" and I find that the goal here is to show God's Wrath to that which is fitted to destruction, evil, that God really hates YET uses.

He is willing to SHOW this wrath against evil by making and allowing temporal evil to exist. Even directing and controlling same. On the Grand Scale of creation He says look, here is TEMPORAL EVIL and it's TEMPORAL WORKS and ALL THESE THINGS will come to an utter and complete NOTHING because these things ARE NOT WORTHY of eternal habitation or survival.

The sum total of the existence of our present creation then involves both a lesson and a testing for the beneficiaries of this present creation. US. God certainly didn't need this whole deal. WE DO!

And here are the beneficiaries of the entire creation:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I am going to stop here and savor this understanding for awhile, because I know that every detail of this entire world and everything that has ever existed in this present environment is for my personal benefit. It is sometimes too much for me to contemplate, this expression of God's Love to us ALL.

"26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

I have seen this time in my heart and this will come to pass for ALL MANKIND.

Let the naysayers be used by EVIL to make those statements to God's Offspring, "YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE."

I know this also serves God's Purposes.

enjoy!

smaller


This does not make sense Eel. If free will does not exist then why did God not simply create us perfect and with complete knowledge of Himself in the first place? With perfect knowledge of His mercy, love, justice, etc... Sin and evil are unnecessary in determinism - which makes God both cruel and sadistic...

[smaller]

This does not make sense Eel. If free will does not exist then why did God not simply create us perfect and with complete knowledge of Himself in the first place?

There are numerous other potential reasons besides non-existing freewill seer.

Your equation of freewill is make a choice that God has affirmed as His Choice, A in order to spare yourself.

Or chose B and fry alive forever or be annihilated. Is this supposed to be freewill choice?


With perfect knowledge of His mercy, love, justice, etc... Sin and evil are unnecessary in determinism

Oh, why is that? Even Jesus was made Perfect by suffering, not by "freewill."


- which makes God both cruel and sadistic...

Not if all are saved.

[seer]

There are numerous other potential reasons besides non-existing freewill seer.


Ok, what are they?

[smaller]

There are numerous other potential reasons besides non-existing freewill seer.


Ok, what are they?

You are planted in corruption and will be raised incorruptible. Was your freewill required for this? No.

You are planted in weakness, and will be raised in power. Was your freewill required for this? No.

You are planted in dishonor and will be raised in glory. Was your freewill required for this? No.

The suffering you now endure is what God has elected to transpire for His offspring, the Inheritors of Eternity. Was your freewill required for this? No.

I could go on, but you should get the point. God is not going to be "pleased" by some weak, corrupted dishonored suffering choices you may happen to come up with, like that is supposed to be His Reward from you and that this "choice making" is then some basis of justification for not zapping you.

. .

[freelight]

Why love Paul? How do you know that your conscience reflects the preferences of God in any real sense?




We love because we cannot help to when we are flowing out of the original, divine, holy nature of God. Can Love not help but love...that being its innate nature? Any soul coming to have known Love and knows God....will have a knowledge and direct discernment of loves nature - these will be reflected in the soul. Remember....God is Love. Our true original selves came from Love. Love is our true State, heritage... our destiny. We can also further be quickened by Gods Spirit and grow in grace and knowledge of God....of course....increasing our capacity to give and receive Love. In the fullness of the Restoration of all things when LOVE is all in all...there will only be LOVE.





paul

[seer]

We love because we cannot help to when we are flowing out of the original, divine, holy nature of God. Can Love not help but love...that being its innate nature? Any soul coming to have known Love and knows God....will have a knowledge and direct discernment of loves nature - these will be reflected in the soul. Remember....God is Love. Our true original selves came from Love. Love is our true State, heritage... our destiny. We can also further be quickened by Gods Spirit and grow in grace and knowledge of God....of course....increasing our capacity to give and receive Love. In the fullness of the Restoration of all things when LOVE is all in all...there will only be LOVE.

That is circular Paul. And you did not answer the question. And how do you know that God is love?

Perhaps it's just the opposite:

We hate because we cannot help to when we are flowing out of the original, divine, unholy nature of God. Can hate not help but hate...that being its innate nature? Any soul coming to have known hate and knows God....will have a knowledge and direct discernment of hate's nature - these will be reflected in the soul. Remember....God is Hate.

[freelight]

We love because we cannot help to when we are flowing out of the original, divine, holy nature of God. Can Love not help but love...that being its innate nature? Any soul coming to have known Love and knows God....will have a knowledge and direct discernment of loves nature - these will be reflected in the soul. Remember....God is Love. Our true original selves came from Love. Love is our true State, heritage... our destiny. We can also further be quickened by Gods Spirit and grow in grace and knowledge of God....of course....increasing our capacity to give and receive Love. In the fullness of the Restoration of all things when LOVE is all in all...there will only be LOVE.

That is circular Paul. And you did not answer the question. And how do you know that God is love?


Yes,....the circle of God goes on indefinitely as a symbol of Infinity. I think the above is replete with its own definitives. How do I know that God is Love? Well,.....how do you know God is Love? Besides the scritpures revealing God as Love....and the direct impress/knowledge/experience of my own being of Gods Love.....my soul/spirit intuits God as divine Love - this Love is the most fulfilling, satisfying living reality that permeates the whole of Existence...and is the Law of our being/life/existence. As God is Love.....and we are awakend to our true being in God....it is a love-revelation. This is how we know God. Further we know that God is Love by the demonstration of Christs Love for us...as he gave his life on our behalf....as an expression of Love. Since Gods Spirit is Love...and He has given us of His Spirit....we have this inner witness in our own souls which is further verified when we love our brethren. I am actually more of the school of St. John with my Christology. (the gospel and 1st epistle). Finally.....God is Love to me....because my own experience has validated this as a truth. Until I am persuaded otherwise I will keep the seal of this truth sacred in the heart.


Perhaps it's just the opposite:

We hate because we cannot help to when we are flowing out of the original, divine, unholy nature of God. Can hate not help but hate...that being its innate nature? Any soul coming to have known hate and knows God....will have a knowledge and direct discernment of hate's nature - these will be reflected in the soul. Remember....God is Hate.


No, no seer. This has no affirmation from the Spirit. Everything within me (my being-ness in God which is derived only from the Love that God IS)....revolts at this concept of God being anything less than Love - He cannot therefore be that which is in total opposition to His true nature.{He cannot be that which He is NOT} The above which you have reworded is unsound....and even insane. Perhaps you have just used it as an illustration in your own peculiar way....but for now....the glory of Gods Love is preeminent and all-consuming....so I will stay in Love for Loves sake.

I know God is Love from experience and direct, living communion with divinity.(also there is the element of faith which we must exercise because we are not always spiritually discerning of the Lords Presence...we also have 'faith' in His Love). To turn the tables for a change......How do you know God is Love besides being taught that he is or just accepting this statement because the Bible says so?







paul

[seer]

Yes,....the circle of God goes on indefinitely as a symbol of Infinity. I think the above is replete with its own definitives. How do I know that God is Love? Well,.....how do you know God is Love? Besides the scritpures revealing God as Love....and the direct impress/knowledge/experience of my own being of Gods Love.....my soul/spirit intuits God as divine Love - this Love is the most fulfilling, satisfying living reality that permeates the whole of Existence...and is the Law of our being/life/existence. As God is Love.....and we are awakend to our true being in God....it is a love-revelation. This is how we know God. Further we know that God is Love by the demonstration of Christs Love for us...as he gave his life on our behalf....as an expression of Love. Since Gods Spirit is Love...and He has given us of His Spirit....we have this inner witness in our own souls which is further verified when we love our brethren. I am actually more of the school of St. John with my Christology. (the gospel and 1st epistle). Finally.....God is Love to me....because my own experience has validated this as a truth. Until I am persuaded otherwise I will keep the seal of this truth sacred in the heart.

Well we would say that John knew that God was love because that was revealed to him. Not because he had nice feeling about the subject. And you hold to John's Christology? Do you believe that Christ is THE Son of God? The Only begotten? Who was a propitiation for our sins?

No, no seer. This has no affirmation from the Spirit. Everything within me (my being-ness in God which is derived only from the Love that God IS)....revolts at this concept of God being anything less than Love - He cannot therefore be that which is in total opposition to His true nature.{He cannot be that which He is NOT} The above which you have reworded is unsound....and even insane. Perhaps you have just used it as an illustration in your