On Boasting: For GB....

[seer]

Gb said:

Well we disagree and we've been over this a lot. As I see it, Arminians have ground for boasting, even though they say they don't. And let me say this, it's not that the Reformed thinks that Arminians are running around bragging about their decision for Christ. But it's just there in the theology. A prime example, from a recent experience I just had, was with an old Calvary Chapel friend. He tried to corner me by saying "is it stupid to not believe in Jesus?" Of course if I answer "yes", then he's thinking he has disproved Reformed thought. But all he has done is reduced it down to smart folks versus stupid folks. And if the smart ones, or the "wise" ones as seer calls them, are the ones who believe in Jesus...well that totally undermines grace and leaves grounds for people to think themselves Christians because they were smart enough to believe.


Actually, I think this is one of the best arguments against Arminianism proper. But Gb, if you will follow my logic I will try to put it in another context:

1 Cor. 10:13

"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."

So Gb, those times when we do not resist sin is it because:

A. God did not make a way of escape,which nullifies the above text...

Or

B. We did not avail ourselves of that grace?

And if we avail ourselves of said grace, is that an occasion for boasting?

[The Plain Jane]

so that, just as it is written, " LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Just a quick note, boasting is good when it is done in a Christ-centered, Cross-focused manner:


For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

[Kevin Wayne]

Personally, I think if someone continually brings up something, it's because they are having a problem with it. So if boasting is a problem, I would recommend we tell them to meditate on the following:


6 But He gives greater grace. Therefore He says: God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. 7 Therefore, submit to God. But resist the Devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, sinners, and purify your hearts, double-minded people! 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep. Your laughter must change to mourning and your joy to sorrow. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you.


:wink:

[seer]

Personally, I think if someone continually brings up something, it's because they are having a problem with it. So if boasting is a problem, I would recommend we tell them to meditate on the following:


6 But He gives greater grace. Therefore He says: God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. 7 Therefore, submit to God. But resist the Devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, sinners, and purify your hearts, double-minded people! 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep. Your laughter must change to mourning and your joy to sorrow. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you.


:wink:

So if we "humble ourselves" as the bible tells us to do - is that an occasion for boasting?

[GoBahnsen]

Actually, I think this is one of the best arguments against Arminianism proper.
So, you're not Arminian proper or you think my argument was just one of the best? Or both?


But Gb, if you will follow my logic I will try to put it in another context:

1 Cor. 10:13

"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."

So Gb, those times when we do not resist sin is it because:

A. God did not make a way of escape,which nullifies the above text...

Or

B. We did not avail ourselves of that grace?

And if we avail ourselves of said grace, is that an occasion for boasting?
A couple of things seer...sin is such that it is larger than the scope of 1Cor 10:13. IOW, while God makes a way of escape for the Christian, when a woman says "come lay with me..." that doesn't deal with my failure to pray more faithfully. And yes, my failure to pray as I ought, is sin. My failure to love my wife as Christ loved the Church is my sin. My failure to do the good that I would, is my sin. My false doctrine that I believe and spread, is my sin.

Another point I would make to your "B" question: Now you are into the realm of sanctification and the Reformed believe in a synergistic sanctification. So you have changed the playing field or the boundaries of the debate. The debate about grounds for boasting have to do with regeneration. Monergism, leaves no room for boasting, while synergism does.

And...while synergists say they don't boast, it's like a Mormon who says he doesn't boast about becoming a god someday. That's fine if he doesn't brag about that belief, but it's still a false belief and one that needs to be addressed.

And while the Mormon doctrine of godhood one day is by far the most terrible, the Arminian doctrine of freewill is far more subtle and widespread. It needs to be addressed and that's why we do attack it like white blood cells do... in the Body of Christ.

FYI, the white blood cell remark was not meant to be racist in anyway, but rather medical/biological by analogy .

[Kevin Wayne]

So if we "humble ourselves" as the bible tells us to do - is that an occasion for boasting?

No, because we wouldn't be humble... :smile:

[seer]

Another point I would make to your "B" question: Now you are into the realm of sanctification and the Reformed believe in a synergistic sanctification. So you have changed the playing field or the boundaries of the debate. The debate about grounds for boasting have to do with regeneration. Monergism, leaves no room for boasting, while synergism does.

So Gb, in light of the texts in question - do you hold to synergism? If so do you boast on the days that you do not sin?

[GoBahnsen]

Another point I would make to your "B" question: Now you are into the realm of sanctification and the Reformed believe in a synergistic sanctification. So you have changed the playing field or the boundaries of the debate. The debate about grounds for boasting have to do with regeneration. Monergism, leaves no room for boasting, while synergism does.

So Gb, in light of the texts in question - do you hold to synergism? If so do you boast on the days that you do not sin?I boast in Christ and His grace to me, but I never have a day that I can say I did not sin.

I see where you're going, but again, this isn't about whether we actually do boast in our means of salvation, but whether it's true or not. I think you're trying to trap me by getting me to realize or admit that there are some good things I might do or God do in me, does that mean I boast about them?

The real issue seer is, your position, not mine, leaving you holding the bag of "I'm wiser than you". I want you to see that God and God alone, without your consent decided that you should be saved. "And as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed." "And God added daily to the Church, such as should be saved." God added seer...seer didn't add himself. Give glory to God and leave yourself out of it.

[seer]

I boast in Christ and His grace to me, but I never have a day that I can say I did not sin.

I see where you're going, but again, this isn't about whether we actually do boast in our means of salvation, but whether it's true or not. I think you're trying to trap me by getting me to realize or admit that there are some good things I might do or God do in me, does that mean I boast about them?

The real issue seer is, your position, not mine, leaving you holding the bag of "I'm wiser than you". I want you to see that God and God alone, without your consent decided that you should be saved. "And as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed." "And God added daily to the Church, such as should be saved." God added seer...seer didn't add himself. Give glory to God and leave yourself out of it.

Gb do you hold to synergism or not? Did God make a way of escape or not?

[GoBahnsen]

Gb do you hold to synergism or not? Did God make a way of escape or not?Monergism in regeneration. Synergism in sanctification.

Does God make a way of escape when I don't love my wife with my all? I suppose He does, but I can't see it yet...at least not everytime. I still need to grow up in Christ unto a perfect man. The perfect will come when I die physically. Glorification and freedom from sin altogether.

Who shall deliever me from this body of death? Christ has begun the work, He will finish it.

[micah4]

The real issue seer is, your position, not mine, leaving you holding the bag of "I'm wiser than you".


If synergism opens the door to "I'm wiser then you", then why couldn't one make this same boast regarding the degree of sanctification they've attained (since you affirm sanctification as synergistic)? As the calvinists are so fond of asking, why did one take the way of escape onward to sanctification while the other did not? Is it because he was smarter, or wiser, or just better in his self-choosing? If these problems clearly admit grounds for boasting w.r.t. to initial belief as the monergists hold, then it seems they just as clearly admit grounds for boasting w.r.t continuing sanctification. So is it acceptable that there be "grounds for boasting" about being wiser in pursuing sanctification, but not acceptable to have these same "grounds for boasting" regarding initial belief? It seems both positions would be left "holding" the same bag, except you're only holding it one place while (full?) synergists hold it in two.

[Xavier]

Monergism in regeneration. Synergism in sanctification [...]

Boasting either way... I'm saddened to see this argument under serious consideration again.

[seer]

Monergism in regeneration. Synergism in sanctification.

Does God make a way of escape when I don't love my wife with my all? I suppose He does, but I can't see it yet...at least not everytime. I still need to grow up in Christ unto a perfect man. The perfect will come when I die physically. Glorification and freedom from sin altogether.

Who shall deliever me from this body of death? Christ has begun the work, He will finish it.

You see Gb, in your heart you do not sense that the synergism in sanctification is a reason to boast. Even in the times you avail yourself of God's grace. Which according to the Corinthian passage is always available. All you feel is graditude for God's grace, even when you wisely decided to use it. You should give Arminians the same benefit of the doubt...

[Kevin Wayne]

I still want to know if Reformed Theology is what keeps you humble?

[GoBahnsen]

You see Gb, in your heart you do not sense that the synergism in sanctification is a reason to boast. Even in the times you avail yourself of God's grace. Which according to the Corinthian passage is always available. All you feel is graditude for God's grace, even when you wisely decided to use it. You should give Arminians the same benefit of the doubt...I do...in sanctification. The issue before us in the debate is that of regeneration. Please make a note of that, as I am weary of repeating it in this very thread.

[GoBahnsen]

I still want to know if Reformed Theology is what keeps you humble?You joined with Analogman in that ridiculous bit about Dort being a kangaroo court, therefore no answer will be coming to you. You are under official GoBahnsen chastening. Repent and sin no more.

[Kevin Wayne]

You joined with Analogman in that ridiculous bit about Dort being a kangaroo court, therefore no answer will be coming to you. You are under official GoBahnsen chastening. Repent and sin no more.


:lol:

Because you don't want to hear the truth?

[GoBahnsen]

If synergism opens the door to "I'm wiser then you", then why couldn't one make this same boast regarding the degree of sanctification they've attained (since you affirm sanctification as synergistic)? As the calvinists are so fond of asking, why did one take the way of escape onward to sanctification while the other did not?Biblical grace eliminates boasting in salvation from sin and death. Once we have been redeemed we can be foolish and boast about cooperating with grace, but that would only be because we forgot that "it is God who works in us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure".

Regeneration, on the other hand would be tragically messed up if a sinner thought he gave the go ahead for God to raise him from death. Faith, in that scheme becomes a good or virtuous work resulting in salvation.

Often the Arminian will say "I don't boast because I grabbed the life preserver..." But the Arminian or freewill advocate fails to realize that he is making a false comparison. To grab a life preserver is to turn from death by drowning. No virtue in that. To lay hold of Christ is virtuous, because it is a turning from sin unto Christ. That's not possible to do by the natural man. He must be drawn (helko) by superior power in order to come to Christ.

It's all of grace and faith is as well, lest it become a good work in the freewill scheme. This is what I see and I think it's the Reformed view as well.

Is it because he was smarter, or wiser, or just better in his self-choosing? If these problems clearly admit grounds for boasting w.r.t. to initial belief as the monergists hold, then it seems they just as clearly admit grounds for boasting w.r.t continuing sanctification.No, because in the one case you have the natural man deciding he'd like to be renewed, and in the other case you have a renewed man who now knows better than to boast.


So is it acceptable that there be "grounds for boasting" about being wiser in pursuing sanctification, but not acceptable to have these same "grounds for boasting" regarding initial belief? The one may boast in the Lord, but the "initial case" one can only boast in his own wisdom over his stupid neighbors lack thereof.


It seems both positions would be left "holding" the same bag, except you're only holding it one place while (full?) synergists hold it in two.
I hope the above remarks clear this up

[john-philip]

Look, how many times do we have to say it...just because Arminians have better theology does not mean that they have room for boasting.


:wink:

[GoBahnsen]

Look, how many times do we have to say it...just because Arminians have better theology does not mean that they have room for boasting.


:wink:I get the joke.

But in all seriousness, I really don't meet Mormons who boast in becoming gods one day, yet I reprove them for their error anyway. I reprove Arminians for holding to a belief that gives them grounds for boasting, though they may not be actually bragging themselves.

The Bible isn't so much concerned with what we do (though it is) as much as what we believe. Because what we believe colors all our attitudes of heart, whether we act out or not. One doesn't have to brag to be a braggert in his heart.

If you believe that you by your own will, made yourself to cooperate with grace, you have distorted Biblical grace and those verses that tell you that it wasn't by the the "flesh or the will of man" that you were born again. And that's no joke.

[john-philip]

I get the joke.

But in all seriousness, I really don't meet Mormons who boast in becoming gods one day, yet I reprove them for their error anyway. I reprove Arminians for holding to a belief that gives them grounds for boasting, though they may not be actually bragging themselves.

The Bible isn't so much concerned with what we do (though it is) as much as what we believe. Because what we believe colors all our attitudes of heart, whether we act out or not. One doesn't have to brag to be a braggert in his heart.

If you believe that you by your own will, made yourself to cooperate with grace, you have distorted Biblical grace and those verses that tell you that it wasn't by the the "flesh or the will of man" that you were born again. And that's no joke.
You're no fun. :no:

Further, the only reason you think Arminians have grounds for boasting is because you assume compatibilism to be true (similar to Colossians first infamous unanswerable question thread) - but of course, Arminians don't believe in compatibilism.

[yxboom]

Monergism in regeneration. Synergism in sanctification.

Does God make a way of escape when I don't love my wife with my all? I suppose He does, but I can't see it yet...at least not everytime. I still need to grow up in Christ unto a perfect man. The perfect will come when I die physically. Glorification and freedom from sin altogether.

Who shall deliever me from this body of death? Christ has begun the work, He will finish it.
now if you assume previenient grace than there really is no difference with the calvinist synergism in sanctification and the freewill theist synergism in regeneration is there?

[seer]

I do...in sanctification. The issue before us in the debate is that of regeneration. Please make a note of that, as I am weary of repeating it in this very thread.


The point is Gb, you feel no sense of boasting in sanctification and we feel no sense of boasting in regeneration. There is no difference. All we sense is graditude...

[Kevin Wayne]

The point is Gb, you feel no sense of boasting in sanctification and we feel no sense of boasting in regeneration. There is no difference. All we sense is graditude...


Which is all done by a work in the Spirit and not one's own Theology. Which is why GB won't answer my question. He'd have to admit that for him his Theology is his ground for boasting in not boasting. :wink:

[Ormly]

I still need to grow up in Christ unto a perfect man. The perfect will come when I die physically. Glorification and freedom from sin altogether.




This is just an excuse not to grow up in Christ while we still suck air. After all, if we make the attempt, is it not of works and not of faith? Is it not but to admit there is such a thing as "sinless perfection", per the letters of Peter and John? By taking on the [pitiful] "woe is me" attitude are we not calling God, a liar?

[Xmansmommy]

To lay hold of Christ is virtuous, because it is a turning from sin unto Christ. That's not possible to do by the natural man. He must be drawn (helko) by superior power in order to come to Christ.

How does one lay hold of Christ? Isn't turning from sin unto Christ a choice? Freewillers are able to make that very same choice GB, because we realize that without God's drawing us, we wouldn't be able to come.

No, because in the one case you have the natural man deciding he'd like to be renewed, and in the other case you have a renewed man who now knows better than to boast.

In the first case you have the natural man knowing he can't be renewed without Christ and places his faith in Him. He also knows better than to boast because he knows that it's by God's grace that he is saved.

The one may boast in the Lord, but the "initial case" one can only boast in his own wisdom over his stupid neighbors lack thereof.

Why do you always insist that we non reformers go around thinking ourselves wiser, smarter, etc. over our "stupid" neighbors?

[Ormly]

How does one lay hold of Christ? Isn't turning from sin unto Christ a choice? Freewillers are able to make that very same choice GB, because we realize that without God's drawing us, we wouldn't be able to come.



In the first case you have the natural man knowing he can't be renewed without Christ and places his faith in Him. He also knows better than to boast because he knows that it's by God's grace that he is saved.



Why do you always insist that we non reformers go around thinking ourselves wiser, smarter, etc. over our "stupid" neighbors?

He'd have to throw away his library of incomplete thinkers if he did that, none of whom can it be said they did exploits for God in mighty ways as those he condemns.

[Spokoina]

Gb said:




Actually, I think this is one of the best arguments against Arminianism proper. But Gb, if you will follow my logic I will try to put it in another context:




Seer, I wholehearedly disagree with that statement.

Boasting has nothing to do with what position you hold on this issue. Boasting is not a doctrinal stand.

Boasting (in self, which is what we are talking about) is a facet of the human heart. And I personally know some in both camps who boast a heck of alot in words and deeds on how much better they are for being saved then those poor lost souls going to hell. Calvinists, for example, have gloated that I am reprobate, and they are of course chosen, just look at their doctrinal postion. (think carefully on that.... one said to me, "I know I am elect, by just looking at my beliefs and actions." So he cannot boast, I would imagine?) And some Arminians too, think of themselves as a cut above for being saved.

And I personally know some in both camps who understand that we only stand by grace alone, and exude such a spirit. I think your indictment is one of human pride, GoB, of which calvinists are not immune, rather that arminianism.

[Spokoina]

. I reprove Arminians for holding to a belief that gives them grounds for boasting, though they may not be actually bragging themselves.

The Bible isn't so much concerned with what we do (though it is) as much as what we believe. Because what we believe colors all our attitudes of heart, whether we act out or not. One doesn't have to brag to be a braggert in his heart.

If you believe that you by your own will, made yourself to cooperate with grace, you have distorted Biblical grace and those verses that tell you that it wasn't by the the "flesh or the will of man" that you were born again. And that's no joke.

Then too, shall Calvinism be reproved for laying a terrible ground for boasting, "I am LOVED and ELECTED by God" and "YOU are reprobate, hated by God because that is how God made it and that is what brings him joy!" "God will take great pleasure of seeing you burn, you reprobate! God loved me, gosh and I don't even know why, but HE sure did!"

Yeah, calvinists do say that of others. Heard many..MANY say that GoB.

So, the theory of the elect lay that foundation for boasting..if you don't like the term calvinist still. Same issue for those holding that belief..so don't believe that out is there. ;)

Or else just finally, concede that boasting is not along doctrinal lines, but cuts thru all people, including reformed folks.

[GoBahnsen]

The point is Gb, you feel no sense of boasting in sanctification and we feel no sense of boasting in regeneration. There is no difference. All we sense is graditude...I guess I have to just keep repeating myself, because you're not getting my point. A Mormon may only sense gratitude for his opportunity to work himself up to godhood. I'm going to point out, among other things, his works oriented religion.

seer, you have been one of the rare freewill advocates to actually admit that Christians are indeed wiser than others who don't believe. And that might not be so bad IF God had been given credit for making you wiser in particular, but in your scheme God has no elect of any real substance, so He would, of course, make every single person wise enough to choose Jesus. So saying you were wiser doesn't really work, because God always gives everyone the same stuff in your view.


So if seer pulled the wisdom out on his own and decided to cooperate with grace, then seer has ground for boasting, because he did what others failed to, though they could have done it too, they did not, seer did, and today seer is heavenbound thanks to Jesus AND seer's wisdom.

The monergist makes no claim to anything about him that was better or made him more qualified. It was God's good pleasure and that alone that found the monergist and saved him from his sin. In fact God actually tells us that many wise, not many noble, etc., are saved by God, it's the weak things of the world God chooses to confound the wise. And Reformed theology confounds you "wise" Arminians.

[yxboom]

Then too, shall Calvinism be reproved for laying a terrible ground for boasting, "I am LOVED and ELECTED by God" and "YOU are reprobate, hated by God because that is how God made it and that is what brings him joy!" "God will take great pleasure of seeing you burn, you reprobate! God loved me, gosh and I don't even know why, but HE sure did!"

Yeah, calvinists do say that of others. Heard many..MANY say that GoB.

So, the theory of the elect lay that foundation for boasting..if you don't like the term calvinist still. Same issue for those holding that belief..so don't believe that out is there. ;)

Or else just finally, concede that boasting is not along doctrinal lines, but cuts thru all people, including reformed folks.

since you and I share same experiences maybe you could tell me have you ever seen true heartfelt compassion exemplified by a Calvinist to someone they believed were not elect (yea I know GoB will say well we don't know who is non-elect but c'mon its in the back of your mind)? personally attending Calvinist churches i have not and tend to think that such a theology produces that. maybe you have a different experience with that. i know this is purely anecdotal so its not proof to the correctness of either view.

[GoBahnsen]

Then too, shall Calvinism be reproved for laying a terrible ground for boasting, "I am LOVED and ELECTED by God" and "YOU are reprobate, hated by God because that is how God made it and that is what brings him joy!" "God will take great pleasure of seeing you burn, you reprobate! God loved me, gosh and I don't even know why, but HE sure did!"Welcome Spokoina, I see you still have your old stuff. Starting right off with a strawman for everyone to hate. Nice nasty caricature girl.



Yeah, calvinists do say that of others. Heard many..MANY say that GoB. Not a one. I realize there are doctrinal perfectionists like Marc Carpenter, but he sends me to hell as well. But, I don't find mainstream Calvinists, unless they are really young and stupid, saying what you painted.

Actually, if you strip away all the sarcastic language from your opening description, and terrible things like "it brings God joy to watch people burn", then it remains true, that God is sovereign over all, even the destinies of people.


So, the theory of the elect lay that foundation for boasting..if you don't like the term calvinist still. Same issue for those holding that belief..so don't believe that out is there. ;)
Theory of the elect? The Bible teaches election and predestination.


Or else just finally, concede that boasting is not along doctrinal lines, but cuts thru all people, including reformed folks.
A Reformed person might boast because he thinks he has the best theology and if he does, he sins. But it's Reformed theology, like no other theology, that eliminates the grounds for boasting in regeneration. Because it says the same thing Paul says about salvation by grace alone.

I will not concede that it's not doctrinal, of course it IS. I will concede that Calvinists are still sinners and some of them are too prideful in spite of a theology that ought to make them the most humble.

[Trout]

GB, look man, we all know you are nothing but a filthy, confession carrying, Calvinist bottom-feeder, please admit that everyone is your superior, cow down to our authority and go get us some donuts, I'm hungry.

[GoBahnsen]

since you and I share same experiences maybe you could tell me have you ever seen true heartfelt compassion exemplified by a Calvinist to someone they believed were not elect (yea I know GoB will say well we don't know who is non-elect but c'mon its in the back of your mind)? personally attending Calvinist churches i have not and tend to think that such a theology produces that. maybe you have a different experience with that. i know this is purely anecdotal so its not proof to the correctness of either view.So now we're busy trying to dismiss a theology because of some bad apples who hold to it? Heck, why not have a field day with the mainstream Presbyterian Church going liberal in the late 1800's? Look at all those bad Calvinists!

Yet my OPC denomination with her 35,000 members(small for sure) are hanging true doctrinally. And I belong to a most excellent congregation of sincere people serving others for Christ's sake. Two are in Uganda right now. 17 just left to help Katrina victims. The whole church donating food, tarps to cover holes in the roof, chain saws, rakes and brooms. I was there packing up all the stuff, even some candy, because it's nice to get some candy when you're feeling kind of down.

[yxboom]

So now we're busy trying to dismiss a theology because of some bad apples who hold to it? Heck, why not have a field day with the mainstream Presbyterian Church going liberal in the late 1800's? Look at all those bad Calvinists!

Yet my OPC denomination with her 35,000 members(small for sure) are hanging true doctrinally. And I belong to a most excellent congregation of sincere people serving others for Christ's sake. Two are in Uganda right now. 17 just left to help Katrina victims. The whole church donating food, tarps to cover holes in the roof, chain saws, rakes and brooms. I was there packing up all the stuff, even some candy, because it's nice to get some candy when you're feeling kind of down.
poor GoB. Shall I highlight the GoB disclaimer in my post?

since you and I share same experiences maybe you could tell me have you ever seen true heartfelt compassion exemplified by a Calvinist to someone they believed were not elect (yea I know GoB will say well we don't know who is non-elect but c'mon its in the back of your mind)? personally attending Calvinist churches i have not and tend to think that such a theology produces that. maybe you have a different experience with that. i know this is purely anecdotal so its not proof to the correctness of either view.

I even asked if possibly her experiences were different than mine for crying out loud.

[GoBahnsen]

GB, look man, we all know you are nothing but a filthy, confession carrying, Calvinist bottom-feeder, please admit that everyone is your superior, cow down to our authority and go get us some donuts, I'm hungry.Hey look Trout, you're an Admin now, you truly do have grounds for boasting, but not as much as boom. Me? A Calvinist? I tried to worship Calvin like all you guys do, but then I figured out that we're supposed to worship God. Ever try that Trout?

[GoBahnsen]

poor GoB. Shall I highlight the GoB disclaimer in my post?



I even asked if possibly her experiences were different than mine for crying out loud.It still stinks in my opinion.

[yxboom]

Hey look Trout, you're an Admin now, you truly do have grounds for boasting, but not as much as boom. Me? A Calvinist? I tried to worship Calvin like all you guys do, but then I figured out that we're supposed to worship God. Ever try that Trout?
Trout is into hero worship that is how he got his position.

[Trout]

Hey look Trout, you're an Admin now, you truly do have grounds for boasting, but not as much as boom. Me? A Calvinist? I tried to worship Calvin like all you guys do, but then I figured out that we're supposed to worship God. Ever try that Trout?

The only boasting that I truly enjoy is knowing that you, a filthy Calvinist, are our plaything, Calvin wasn't into God worship, he tried to direct all attention toward hiself, GB.


Trout is into hero worship that is how he got his position.

:bow::hinn::bow:

[GoBahnsen]

The only boasting that I truly enjoy is knowing that you, a filthy Calvinist, are our plaything, Calvin wasn't into God worship, he tried to direct all attention toward hiself, GB.



:bow::hinn::bow:Toward "hiself"? I didn't know he was from the South.

[Trout]

Toward "hiself"? I didn't know he was from the South.

Whatever . . . heself . . . is that better?

Calvinists are particularly persnickety when it comes to spelling

Give it up GB, we outed you.

[micah4]

seer, you have been one of the rare freewill advocates to actually admit that Christians are indeed wiser than others who don't believe. And that might not be so bad IF God had been given credit for making you wiser in particular, but in your scheme God has no elect of any real substance, so He would, of course, make every single person wise enough to choose Jesus. So saying you were wiser doesn't really work, because God always gives everyone the same stuff in your view.

So if seer pulled the wisdom out on his own and decided to cooperate with grace, then seer has ground for boasting, because he did what others failed to, though they could have done it too, they did not, seer did, and today seer is heavenbound thanks to Jesus AND seer's wisdom.


In the words of mr. gump, I would say in this case wisdom is as wisdom does. We call Seer wise because of his choice, we do not say that he chose because of his wisdom. And you're exactly right, every man who has neglected salvation could have done the same.

[GoBahnsen]

Whatever . . . heself . . . is that better?

Calvinists are particularly persnickety when it comes to spelling

Give it up GB, we outed you.Remember me in your prayers to Calvin today. Tell him I think he was a swell guy.

[Trout]

Remember me in your prayers to Calvin today. Tell him I think he was a swell guy.

I thank you that I'm not like GB, living in denial of his calling. :pray:And please rain down some judgment on him so we can watch.

[GoBahnsen]

In the words of mr. gump, I would say in this case wisdom is as wisdom does. We call Seer wise because of his choice, we do not say that he chose because of his wisdom. And you're exactly right, every man who has neglected salvation could have done the same.

seer claimed that Christians are wiser than non Christians and that is why they choose Christ. A true understanding of grace would eliminate that kind of thinking.

[seer]

seer claimed that Christians are wiser than non Christians and that is why they choose Christ. A true understanding of grace would eliminate that kind of thinking.

That is bible Gb. Which clearly states that believers are wiser than non-believers. The foll has said in his heart there is no God.

"Wise men store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin."

"A wise man fears the LORD and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and reckless."

"The path of life leads upward for the wise to keep him from going down to the grave."

"The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out."


http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=wise&version1=31&searchtype=all&spanbegin=24&spanend=24&startnumber=26&startnumber=51&startnumber=1

[Kevin Wayne]

That is bible Gb. Which clearly states that believers are wiser than non-believers. The foll has said in his heart there is no God.

"Wise men store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin."

"A wise man fears the LORD and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and reckless."

"The path of life leads upward for the wise to keep him from going down to the grave."

"The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out."


http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=wise&version1=31&searchtype=all&spanbegin=24&spanend=24&startnumber=26&startnumber=51&startnumber=1





And really, you could also add Matt 25 to that list: Wise Virgins & Foolish Virgins, Good Stewrds & Bad Stewards, Sheep & Goats. I wonder why the Bible bothers to use such distinquishing language? The heretic! Doesn't he know they might get into boasting?


Unless one has the work of The Spirit in your life, NO one can achieve proper humilty by their semantics. None.

[GoBahnsen]

seer claimed that Christians are wiser than non Christians and that is why they choose Christ. A true understanding of grace would eliminate that kind of thinking.

That is bible Gb. Which clearly states that believers are wiser than non-believers. The foll has said in his heart there is no God.

"Wise men store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin."

"A wise man fears the LORD and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and reckless."

"The path of life leads upward for the wise to keep him from going down to the grave."

"The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out."


http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=wise&version1=31&searchtype=all&spanbegin=24&spanend=24&startnumber=26&startnumber=51&startnumber=1Surely Christians have had their eyes opened and have joined themselves with the wisdom that is from above. The debate is about HOW they got that way. The freewill advocate takes credit for his wisdom and HOW that wisdom, that he had over his lost neighbor, made the difference in his salvation.

You and then Kevin W. chiming in, are missing the point of the debate. You both deny pure electing grace. That doesn't make sense to you. Everything in life experience has taught you that you don't get anything or anywhere without you doing your part. So you look for the part you played in your salvation. It's natural to be sure.

The unnatural thing is for a sovereign God to choose a person for reasons unrevealed. People don't like that. Doesn't fit with life expierence. God has got to have some reason for choosing me. so it must be something I did or was willing to do, that He knew about, but didn't bring about. That's what you're stuck on.

Paul would teach you a pure grace that puts all that human way of thinking to rest. He would lead you to find your only answer in pure, unvarnished grace to those that God is pleased to bestow it upon. And humans cannot comprehend that, so they refuse it. It is only God's grace that opens the Arminian's eyes to get beyond that "works" oriented position.

[Kevin Wayne]

It is only God's grace that opens the Arminian's eyes to get beyond that "works" oriented position.


Yup. God's grace. NOT Reformed Philosophy. :wink:

[yxboom]

Yup. God's grace. NOI Reformed Philosophy. :wink:
oy!

[Kevin Wayne]

oy!


And furthermore, one would have to have a very LOW view of God to think that he must work humility in us due to our understanding...

[seer]

Surely Christians have had their eyes opened and have joined themselves with the wisdom that is from above. The debate is about HOW they got that way. The freewill advocate takes credit for his wisdom and HOW that wisdom, that he had over his lost neighbor, made the difference in his salvation.

So you now agree that Christians are wiser than non-christians. I'am not asking how they got that way...


You and then Kevin W. chiming in, are missing the point of the debate. You both deny pure electing grace. That doesn't make sense to you. Everything in life experience has taught you that you don't get anything or anywhere without you doing your part. So you look for the part you played in your salvation. It's natural to be sure.

Get real Gb, I was probably a Calvinist before you. And most likely have read more Calvinist authors than you. My problem with Calvinism has to do with ONE thing: Scripture: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


I can think of no clearer statement of the Mind of God on this subject...


So don't use that "it's natural" argument. It's natural for the carnal man to believe that God loves them and not their non-elect neighbors. That you are special to God in ways they are not. That's what the Pharisees believed...

[Spokoina]

since you and I share same experiences maybe you could tell me have you ever seen true heartfelt compassion exemplified by a Calvinist to someone they believed were not elect (yea I know GoB will say well we don't know who is non-elect but c'mon its in the back of your mind)? personally attending Calvinist churches i have not and tend to think that such a theology produces that. maybe you have a different experience with that. i know this is purely anecdotal so its not proof to the correctness of either view.


I see condescension mostly to the "reprobate" with not a shred of compassion or grief, with the exception of a few saints in the Calvinist camp whom I see as truly understanding the heart of Christ as he sacrificed himself for the ungodly.

And as I said, I don't at times, see that compassion in all arminians either.

[Xmansmommy]

I see condescension mostly to the "reprobate" with not a shred of compassion or grief, with the exception of a few saints in the Calvinist camp whom I see as truly understanding the heart of Christ as he sacrificed himself for the ungodly.

And as I said, I don't at times, see that compassion in all arminians either.

:yeahthat:

[Spokoina]

Welcome Spokoina, I see you still have your old stuff. Starting right off with a strawman for everyone to hate. Nice nasty caricature girl.


Sadly, GoB, it is not a caricature. I have heard that many times, word for word from calvinists, at times directed to me, at times to others they just cannot convince and deem "a waste of time" since God obviously has unelected them. I think Yx made the point, that in the back of the mind, yeah, calvinists do think that those who don't meet them in agreement over doctrines are unelect and often act accordingly..just as I described.

Gloating of one's salvation in front of those you deem lost is a sin, imo. As I said, GoB, I have heard both sides do this, and I have seen many calvinists/reformed folk do it. Better just face that fact square on.

Not a one. I realize there are doctrinal perfectionists like Marc Carpenter, but he sends me to hell as well. But, I don't find mainstream Calvinists, unless they are really young and stupid, saying what you painted.

I have been told that numerous times directly, in unambigous language, by long standing supposedly mature calvinists. I have witnessed directly it said to a variety of other "Christians" as well. Shame on them!

A Reformed person might boast because he thinks he has the best theology and if he does, he sins. But it's Reformed theology, like no other theology, that eliminates the grounds for boasting in regeneration. Because it says the same thing Paul says about salvation by grace alone.

I will not concede that it's not doctrinal, of course it IS. I will concede that Calvinists are still sinners and some of them are too prideful in spite of a theology that ought to make them the most humble.

tsk tsk, GoB, it is NOT, NOT (hear that? NOT!) doctrine or theology which removes the grounds for boasting. It is submitting to the grace of God alone~

Theology, dear Gob, cannot be humble or proud. People can be either.

OH, just to edit in, went to Paltalk, first room, who was on the mic? A long time "mature" Calvinist explaining that just as we love our own kids more, and are more special to us, so the elect like himself are more special and more specially loved by God.

awww, bless his heart, especially since this fellow is a pastor, and one who said he knows I am reprobate.... hmmmmm.

Don't say it doesn't happen, GoB, it happens quite often. ;)

[Kevin Wayne]

Sadly, GoB, it is not a caricature. I have heard that many times, word for word from calvinists, at times directed to me, at times to others they just cannot convince and deem "a waste of time" since God obviously has unelected them. I think Yx made the point, that in the back of the mind, yeah, calvinists do think that those who don't meet them in agreement over doctrines are unelect and often act accordingly..just as I described.

Gloating of one's salvation in front of those you deem lost is a sin, imo. As I said, GoB, I have heard both sides do this, and I have seen many calvinists/reformed folk do it. Better just face that fact square on.


I have been told that numerous times directly, in unambigous language, by long standing supposedly mature calvinists. I have witnessed directly it said to a variety of other "Christians" as well. Shame on them!



tsk tsk, GoB, it is NOT, NOT (hear that? NOT!) doctrine or theology which removes the grounds for boasting. It is submitting to the grace of God alone~

Theology, dear Gob, cannot be humble or proud. People can be either.



Who are the ones who have to butt into any social situation with their ideology?


Who goes into Yahoo chat rooms with names like Supra_indeed, Silly_Arminians, Bondage_of_the_will, etc (while others just have simple names that reflect aspects of their Christian faith like Spirit_led_girl or something innocuous)?


Who has to interrupt witnessing sessions where another Christian is talking to an unbeliever with "No it's not a choice?"


Who kicked the Remonstrants out of church and used the sword to persecute? Who damns everyone that disagrees even the slightest with their exalted doctrine?


NOT the Arminians!



The whole Calvinist world is a mish-mash of competing ideologies, of 5 pointers pointing the finger at four & three-pointers. Of the latter pointing fingers at Dispys. Everyone is more “Correct”.


Wotta zoo. Worse is when they blame others for the stinky-zoo-animal droppings. A circus indeed!

[brother vinny]

The whole Calvinist world is a mish-mash of competing ideologies, of 5 pointers pointing the finger at four & three-pointers. Of the latter pointing fingers at Dispys. Everyone is more “Correct”.


Oh brother. You're a fool if you contend the same things don't happen among Arminians.

[Kevin Wayne]

Oh brother. You're a fool if you contend the same things don't happen among Arminians.

:lol:


When's the last time you met an Arminian who even knew what the 5-points of Arminianism even ARE let alone slam anyone for not having them all?

[brother vinny]

:lol:


When's the last time you met an Arminian who even knew what the 5-points of Arminianism even ARE let alone slam anyone for not having them all?

They slam each other over other things, but they still slam each other.

[micah4]

Oh brother. You're a fool if you contend the same things don't happen among Arminians.

A mishmash of ideologies among arminians, I'd agree- but I think Kevin's observations about the tendency to exalt the particulars of calvinism to an exaggerated degree are spot on. You don't find (in general) the same sort of compulsion to convert people to a particularly Arminian view among the arminians as you do with calvinists. And it gets really annoying for some of us arminians, which is why we give calvinists a hard time in return.

[GoBahnsen]

:lol:


When's the last time you met an Arminian who even knew what the 5-points of Arminianism even ARE let alone slam anyone for not having them all?Thanks for admitting that Arminians tend to be shallow, not that they all are. The Tweb Arminians shine... compared to the typical Arminian on the street.

It is note worthy that Calvinists are the more studious ones and for that very reason, some of them foolishly come off arrogant, puffed up by the very knowledge that should have humbled them. Oh well, such is the sinfulness of sin. Glad I don't have any pride issues myself, I'm very humble, but I don't want to go into it.

[GoBahnsen]

I see condescension mostly to the "reprobate" with not a shred of compassion or grief, with the exception of a few saints in the Calvinist camp whom I see as truly understanding the heart of Christ as he sacrificed himself for the ungodly.

And as I said, I don't at times, see that compassion in all arminians either.Well thanks for the objectivity and attempt at fairness. No doubt, there are a lot of rotten Calvinists (I'm one, but don't tell anybody), and a lot of rotten Arminians. Sin is sin and it's everywhere.

[Kevin Wayne]

Thanks for admitting that Arminians tend to be shallow, not that they all are. The Tweb Arminians shine... compared to the typical Arminian on the street.



Personally I've come to the conclusion in my own life, and this is to me a point of maturity, that I appreciate the simple & humble who don't cloud up things by splitting doctrinal hairs.



It is note worthy that Calvinists are the more studious ones and for that very reason, some of them foolishly come off arrogant, puffed up by the very knowledge that should have humbled them. Oh well, such is the sinfulness of sin. Glad I don't have any pride issues myself, I'm very humble, but I don't want to go into it.




I'm not EVEN gonna touch that one... :whistle:

[yxboom]

Thanks for admitting that Arminians tend to be shallow, not that they all are. The Tweb Arminians shine... compared to the typical Arminian on the street.

It is note worthy that Calvinists are the more studious ones and for that very reason, some of them foolishly come off arrogant, puffed up by the very knowledge that should have humbled them. Oh well, such is the sinfulness of sin. Glad I don't have any pride issues myself, I'm very humble, but I don't want to go into it.
knowing each petal of the tulip does not make one studious or more learned. all it shows if anything is the focus of their leaarning (read lessons from the pulpit). an arminian may not know the 5 points of Arminius but be exceedingly wise in compassion, loving one's neighbor, or caring for the widow. consider that person a shallow arminian because of their inability to rehearse line by line the works of Whitehead or Wright and all you will have done is shown the sad priorities within your system.

[GoBahnsen]

knowing each petal of the tulip does not make one studious or more learned. all it shows if anything is the focus of their leaarning (read lessons from the pulpit). an arminian may not know the 5 points of Arminius but be exceedingly wise in compassion, loving one's neighbor, or caring for the widow. consider that person a shallow arminian because of their inability to rehearse line by line the works of Whitehead or Wright and all you will have done is shown the sad priorities within your system.ok boom, but the temptation to the problem isn't because of the system, but because of the tradition. Reformed systematics are humbling by nature. However, a Reformed tradition of book learning, can lend itself to a temptation of pride, especially in a slothful culture, with regard to reading and book learning.

The Bible itself commands us to study to show ourselves approved by God. This is a vital part, as is the living it out. Take one away from the other and it ALL becomes foul.

[yxboom]

ok boom, but the temptation to the problem isn't because of the system, but because of the tradition. Reformed systematics are humbling by nature. However, a Reformed tradition of book learning, can lend itself to a temptation of pride, especially in a slothful culture, with regard to reading and book learning.
you consider it tradition but from outside looking in, it looks a whole lot like the system. I would be willing to conceed this except for the fact that i find this mindset prevailing within the "reformed" camp. even as one myself i was able to see how it lends itself to this type of mindset. Yourself even took the oppurtunity to belittle the "average" arminian based on book knowledge of those who went before them. fact is the most christ-exemplifying people i know, are not the most "learned". They know one thing and that is to love the way that God loves. I would take that over demanding their knowledge of the writings of past saints any day. What about you?

The Bible itself commands us to study to show ourselves approved by God. This is a vital part, as is the living it out. Take one away from the other and it ALL becomes foul.
I agree we are admonished not to be ignorant of God's word. However you can be unlearned in the Bible and still live a life pleasing to God or you can be a scholar of the Bible and still live the life of sin. Which do you think matters most to God?

[Kevin Wayne]

you consider it tradition but from outside looking in, it looks a whole lot like the system. I would be willing to conceed this except for the fact that i find this mindset prevailing within the "reformed" camp. even as one myself i was able to see how it lends itself to this type of mindset. Yourself even took the oppurtunity to belittle the "average" arminian based on book knowledge of those who went before them. fact is the most christ-exemplifying people i know, are not the most "learned". They know one thing and that is to love the way that God loves. I would take that over demanding their knowledge of the writings of past saints any day. What about you?


I agree we are admonished not to be ignorant of God's word. However you can be unlearned in the Bible and still live a life pleasing to God or you can be a scholar of the Bible and still live the life of sin. Which do you think matters most to God?


That's why I asserted what I did... the simple & humble of the earth are the most Christ-like many times. Some of the worst sins have been committed by those who have worked out the most elaborate systematic theologies.

[yxboom]

That's why I asserted what I did... the simple & humble of the earth are the most Christ-like many times.
amen to that. sometimes i wonder, oh to be simple.

Some of the worst sins have been committed by those who have worked out the most elaborate systematic theologies.
hardly what i think Paul was seeking for when he said to study to show yourself approved.

[GoBahnsen]

you consider it tradition but from outside looking in, it looks a whole lot like the system. I would be willing to conceed this except for the fact that i find this mindset prevailing within the "reformed" camp. even as one myself i was able to see how it lends itself to this type of mindset. Yourself even took the oppurtunity to belittle the "average" arminian based on book knowledge of those who went before them. fact is the most christ-exemplifying people i know, are not the most "learned". They know one thing and that is to love the way that God loves. I would take that over demanding their knowledge of the writings of past saints any day. What about you?


I agree we are admonished not to be ignorant of God's word. However you can be unlearned in the Bible and still live a life pleasing to God or you can be a scholar of the Bible and still live the life of sin. Which do you think matters most to God?I'll take both of your questions as one, because they are closely related. First of all, a sincere thank you for raising a very important question. What matters more to God, right living or the truth?

This is a profound question beyond description and in many ways incapsulates the whole of the Bible. They are inseparable truths, I think. Without truth, you have work's righteousness "do gooders" commending themselves to God on that basis. Without works you have a dead faith, worthless.

In the final analysis boom, I have to answer "truth". Because you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free to do these works you mention and for the right reason. But one without the other is no good. Truth must come first and when it does and is believed, the fruit is that of holiness to God and good works.

Truth matters most to God. And we can know that a person can believe the truth unto salvation, even at their dying breath, before they ever do one good thing for God's glory. Believing what God says, matters most. That's my answer friend. I appreciate you asking it and I feel a sort of special love for you for setting it forth. Thank you, GB

[yxboom]

I'll take both of your questions as one, because they are closely related. First of all, a sincere thank you for raising a very important question. What matters more to God, right living or the truth?

This is a profound question beyond description and in many ways incapsulates the whole of the Bible. They are inseparable truths, I think. Without truth, you have work's righteousness "do gooders" commending themselves to God on that basis. Without works you have a dead faith, worthless.

In the final analysis boom, I have to answer "truth". Because you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free to do these works you mention and for the right reason. But one without the other is no good. Truth must come first and when it does and is believed, the fruit is that of holiness to God and good works.

Truth matters most to God. And we can know that a person can believe the truth unto salvation, even at their dying breath, before they ever do one good thing for God's glory. Believing what God says, matters most. That's my answer friend. I appreciate you asking it and I feel a sort of special love for you for setting it forth. Thank you, GB
i appreciate your candor. they were not loaded questions in case you considered that. i asked simply because i felt you probably would answer as you did but would not want to assume so. if anything you've shown me, if i want a sincere answer i know i can go to GoB. While i disagree (as i am sure you would expect) and think your response really solidifies my original claim that the system (practically) demands it. it is "unnatural theology" so who would know it lest the learn it from the pulpit, right? Whereas freewill theism comes from a natural reasoning of reality and so a life can bear this out without opening any book. All i know is without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him. I don't think Enoch had a Bible study on Wednesdays yet he drew near to God.

[Kevin Wayne]

19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.


This happened to pop into my mind as I was reading this convo.

[yxboom]

19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.


This happened to pop into my mind as I was reading this convo.
i guess you wouldnt have thought that if you were not so learned in the Bible. :hehe:

[Spokoina]

19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.


This happened to pop into my mind as I was reading this convo.


me too, and tinkling cymbals, or in this case, clanking symbols ;)

and clunking gongs...

There is a huge, and I mean huge! difference between knowledge and truth.


1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

[GoBahnsen]

i appreciate your candor. they were not loaded questions in case you considered that. i asked simply because i felt you probably would answer as you did but would not want to assume so. if anything you've shown me, if i want a sincere answer i know i can go to GoB. While i disagree (as i am sure you would expect) and think your response really solidifies my original claim that the system (practically) demands it. it is "unnatural theology" so who would know it lest the learn it from the pulpit, right? Whereas freewill theism comes from a natural reasoning of reality and so a life can bear this out without opening any book. All i know is without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him. I don't think Enoch had a Bible study on Wednesdays yet he drew near to God.We Christians are people of the Book primarily. If we don't do what the Book says, we get nowhere, but we are a people of God's Word. We are not Buddhists or Confucionists or some other religion of doing good and self improvement.

We are a people who find out through the Book, that we don't need self improvement, but that we need a new identity. We find out we need a Saviour. We find out that it's futile to work hard enough to be good enough, to be acceptable enough.

Yes...we are a people of the Book and that first, after that...we're a people that turn the world upside down...


Yx...I sense your sincerity in your question here and I am walking softly to accommodate that. It is at the heart of the Christian message. So thanks again, GB

[GoBahnsen]

me too, and tinkling cymbals, or in this case, clanking symbols ;)

and clunking gongs...

There is a huge, and I mean huge! difference between knowledge and truth.


1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.The problem occurs when we put people into a headlock and give them a knee into the stomach, in order that they might understand the right view on love. How many of us have punched people and spit on them because they got the Biblical view of love wrong? We slam their heads into the pavement of our proof texts or analogies and when their noses bleed from our forceful demonstration of the true academics of love. We pat ourselves on the back for helping God to help sinners see the real meaning of love.

[Kevin Wayne]

i guess you wouldnt have thought that if you were not so learned in the Bible. :hehe:


It ultimately comes down to where you see the fruits of the Spirit most manifest. You know where you see them manifest in a small portions, mixed in with lot of bad fruit. And you know where you see better fruit and in abundant supply. Therefore, even where you camp Theologically is where you see Christ most reflected. The state of where the church is right now is due to how God chose to nuture it & how we co-operated with that nurturing. Chances are, where you choose to feast on the Word is where God wants you to be.


For me, I am where I am and am not where I am not because of the evidence of fruits.

[Ormly]

There is a huge, and I mean huge! difference between knowledge and truth.





Bid difference indeed! When speaking of Christ we know Him to be THE TRUTH. Knowledge has to do with being intimate with THE TRUTH....Him. Most of us who think we are rich, are poor; educated dummies.

"..... except you come as a child...."

[yxboom]

We Christians are people of the Book primarily. If we don't do what the Book says, we get nowhere, but we are a people of God's Word. We are not Buddhists or Confucionists or some other religion of doing good and self improvement.
why does everything have to go back to works salvation? do you think it is not possible to have charity, to be an example of God's love without bidding your way into heaven? just some food for thought. reply to this if you wish or don't. Do you really think the samaritan who pitied his neighbor was in it for a free ride into heaven? Do you seriously think that was Jesus' message? were not the samaritans the ones who "know not what they worship"? doesn't the parable of the good samaritan in Jesus' own words declare charity is what matters most to God?


We are a people who find out through the Book, that we don't need self improvement, but that we need a new identity. We find out we need a Saviour. We find out that it's futile to work hard enough to be good enough, to be acceptable enough.
The book gives faith. according to Paul, charity is greater than faith. what gives charity?

Yes...we are a people of the Book and that first, after that...we're a people that turn the world upside down...
How is this not gnosticism wrapped up in a dove-etched bookcover?

Yx...I sense your sincerity in your question here and I am walking softly to accommodate that. It is at the heart of the Christian message. So thanks again, GB
Not that i think you are an idiot, but far from it. However, I really can not fanthom anyone valuing anything greater than (charity) love.

[Spokoina]

The problem occurs when we put people into a headlock and give them a knee into the stomach, in order that they might understand the right view on love. How many of us have punched people and spit on them because they got the Biblical view of love wrong? We slam their heads into the pavement of our proof texts or analogies and when their noses bleed from our forceful demonstration of the true academics of love. We pat ourselves on the back for helping God to help sinners see the real meaning of love.


You missed the point.

;)

[GoBahnsen]

why does everything have to go back to works salvation? I guess it's the main fork in the road. My understanding is that all religions, except Christianity, teach some form of works oriented approach to a better life after the grave.

Paul attacks it head on "for by the works of the law, no flesh will be saved."


do you think it is not possible to have charity, to be an example of God's love without bidding your way into heaven? just some food for thought. Not sure what you mean by bidding. But it does seem to me that you're, at the very least, heading down the road of inclusivism. Mother Teresa might have trusted Mary to get her "in" with Jesus (I don't know what she trusted in), but if she was not born from above by the Spirit of God through faith in the Son of God, she died lost.

I don't judge the woman. Her works were remarkable and very much to be commended by man. But all the good works in the world won't save one soul. Only the blood of Jesus can wash a person's sin away. And the Book tells us we must confess our sin, including our self righteousness because we think we're so good, and call upon the name of the Lord Jesus, in order to be saved. The Book tells us that, nature does not. We cannot love our way into heaven, we must come by faith in the Son of God. After that we will love, though imperfectly, we will grow up in our ability to love, but love apart from faith in Christ is futile.


reply to this if you wish or don't. Do you really think the samaritan who pitied his neighbor was in it for a free ride into heaven? I don't know, he may have been a God fearer.


Do you seriously think that was Jesus' message? were not the samaritans the ones who "know not what they worship"? doesn't the parable of the good samaritan in Jesus' own words declare charity is what matters most to God?
I don't think that's the point of the parable. That story described love in action, not the way to heaven. When the people asked Jesus what they must do to do the work of God, Jesus responded with "this is the work of God, that you believe on Jesus Christ whom He hath sent..."

It must come down to that message. "We preach Christ and Him crucified..." Paul didn't go about teaching people to just do the best they can to be loving and kind and all will be well. That's the message of a false teacher. Paul did teach on love, but only after He preached on repentance and faith. The teaching of the importance of love and how to love are for the believer.



The book gives faith. according to Paul, charity is greater than faith. what gives charity?
The charity that is acceptable to God comes only through that which is done in the Beloved. Apart from faith it is impossible to please God.

Therefore, all the charity that goes on in the name of other gods, is not pleasing to Jehovah.


How is this not gnosticism wrapped up in a dove-etched bookcover?
So you're saying, what we believe is vain, just live a life of loving others?


Not that i think you are an idiot, but far from it. However, I really can not fanthom anyone valuing anything greater than (charity) love.
Well, we must value Jesus the most and then we will experience the love of God and His love will work in and through us. All other love is powerless to wash away sin.

[yxboom]

I guess it's the main fork in the road. My understanding is that all religions, except Christianity, teach some form of works oriented approach to a better life after the grave.

Paul attacks it head on "for by the works of the law, no flesh will be saved."
how does that address what I said? I believe this is a red herring.

Not sure what you mean by bidding.
you know as in like home buying?

But it does seem to me that you're, at the very least, heading down the road of inclusivism.
have i ever hinted otherwise? a simple search for inclusivism and my name in this section will quickly reveal that Ive never hid that I am inclusivist.

Mother Teresa might have trusted Mary to get her "in" with Jesus (I don't know what she trusted in), but if she was not born from above by the Spirit of God through faith in the Son of God, she died lost.

I don't judge the woman. Her works were remarkable and very much to be commended by man. But all the good works in the world won't save one soul. Only the blood of Jesus can wash a person's sin away. And the Book tells us we must confess our sin, including our self righteousness because we think we're so good, and call upon the name of the Lord Jesus, in order to be saved. The Book tells us that, nature does not. We cannot love our way into heaven, we must come by faith in the Son of God. After that we will love, though imperfectly, we will grow up in our ability to love, but love apart from faith in Christ is futile.
you mean Teresa's knowledge of Jesus was insufficient to please God according to you. Again, gnosticism.

I don't know, he may have been a God fearer.
Is that really what the text says? iirc those who "knew" God (according to your understanding knowing the fine points of their Scriptures) rejected the injured man. i think you are being intellectually dishonest here.

I don't think that's the point of the parable. That story described love in action, not the way to heaven. When the people asked Jesus what they must do to do the work of God, Jesus responded with "this is the work of God, that you believe on Jesus Christ whom He hath sent..."
it doesnt look like you read my reply very well.


It must come down to that message. "We preach Christ and Him crucified..." Paul didn't go about teaching people to just do the best they can to be loving and kind and all will be well. That's the message of a false teacher.
Then shall we throw the apostle John into the category of false teachers? Just a cursory reading of his epistles will reveal that John's message was love above all.

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

John doesn't seem to make the point you wish to impute into the message.

Paul did teach on love, but only after He preached on repentance and faith. The teaching of the importance of love and how to love are for the believer.

The charity that is acceptable to God comes only through that which is done in the Beloved. Apart from faith it is impossible to please God.

Therefore, all the charity that goes on in the name of other gods, is not pleasing to Jehovah.


Id ask was the samaritan a believer but you'd say yes so looks as if we are at an impasse.

So you're saying, what we believe is vain, just live a life of loving others?
quite the leap in logic. all I did say was that by your own words you validify my earlier assertion that Calvinist theology regards gnosticism. In no way did i say that it is not valuable to "know" what you believe as the Bereans, in fact I said otherwise. However my point remains that the focus of your system relies so heavily on knowledge that the works of God are not manifest.

Well, we must value Jesus the most and then we will experience the love of God and His love will work in and through us. All other love is powerless to wash away sin.
How do we "value Jesus" if not love? What is Jesus' greatest command? To love God and others. It looks like God has a higher value of this powerless love than you. because it all goes back to what you've asserted continuously in this thread, if love is not borne out of knowledge it is worthless.

[GoBahnsen]

how does that address what I said? I believe this is a red herring.


you know as in like home buying?


have i ever hinted otherwise? a simple search for inclusivism and my name in this section will quickly reveal that Ive never hid that I am inclusivist.


you mean Teresa's knowledge of Jesus was insufficient to please God according to you. Again, gnosticism.


Is that really what the text says? iirc those who "knew" God (according to your understanding knowing the fine points of their Scriptures) rejected the injured man. i think you are being intellectually dishonest here.


it doesnt look like you read my reply very well.


Then shall we throw the apostle John into the category of false teachers? Just a cursory reading of his epistles will reveal that John's message was love above all.

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

John doesn't seem to make the point you wish to impute into the message.



Id ask was the samaritan a believer but you'd say yes so looks as if we are at an impasse.


quite the leap in logic. all I did say was that by your own words you validify my earlier assertion that Calvinist theology regards gnosticism. In no way did i say that it is not valuable to "know" what you believe as the Bereans, in fact I said otherwise. However my point remains that the focus of your system relies so heavily on knowledge that the works of God are not manifest.


How do we "value Jesus" if not love? What is Jesus' greatest command? To love God and others. It looks like God has a higher value of this powerless love than you. because it all goes back to what I've asserted continuously in this thread, if love is not borne out of knowledge it is worthless.I reply in the new thread on this subject

[Chappie]

Well we disagree and we've been over this a lot. As I see it, Arminians have ground for boasting, even though they say they don't. And let me say this, it's not that the Reformed thinks that Arminians are running around bragging about their decision for Christ. But it's just there in the theology. A prime example, from a recent experience I just had, was with an old Calvary Chapel friend. He tried to corner me by saying "is it stupid to not believe in Jesus?" Of course if I answer "yes", then he's thinking he has disproved Reformed thought. But all he has done is reduced it down to smart folks versus stupid folks. And if the smart ones, or the "wise" ones as seer calls them, are the ones who believe in Jesus...well that totally undermines grace and leaves grounds for people to think themselves Christians because they were smart enough to believe.

Looking at the same sack of potatoes, you see potatoes, I see potattas. Appears to me that I am elect, God chose me and not you presents sufficient grounds for boasting. Now I'm not saying that this is what all Calvinist do, but their theology sure presents opportunity to do so…

Question.
Does the bible portray all boasting as untoward, or does it portray all boasting before God as untoward?

2 Corinthians 7:14
For if I have boasted any thing to him of you, I am not ashamed; but as we spake all things to you in truth, even so our boasting, which I made before Titus, is found a truth.
2 Corinthians 7:13-15 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 7 (Whole Chapter)

2 Corinthians 8:24
Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.
2 Corinthians 8:23-25 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 8 (Whole Chapter)

2 Corinthians 9:3
Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
2 Corinthians 9:2-4 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter)

2 Corinthians 9:4
Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.
2 Corinthians 9:3-5 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 9 (Whole Chapter)

2 Corinthians 10:15
Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
2 Corinthians 10:14-16 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 10 (Whole Chapter)

2 Corinthians 11:10
As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
2 Corinthians 11:9-11 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 11 (Whole Chapter)