Ancient Jewish tradition predicted Jesus' birth?

[bar Jonah]

Was in a store leafing through a book called "Jewish Mysticism For Dummies." I particularly noted their section on the Mashiyach. Naturally, they talked briefly about how Jesus couldn't be the messiah because He didn't fulfill all the prophecies -- of course not, because some of them are concerning His triumphant second coming.

But something caught my eye. It said that it has long been a tradition in Jewish mysticism that the messiah would be born on a specific day -- Tisha B'av. The 9th of Av on the Jewish calendar. A Jewish holiday commemorating two great tragedies in Jewish history.

Now, we know Jesus wasn't born in late December, but rather in late summer or early autumn. Although it changes somewhat from year to year, this year Tisha B'av falls on... Aug. 9th. Of course, our current calendar was shifted by about two weeks a couple centuries ago, I believe sometime in the lifetime of George Washington if I'm not mistaken. (I seem to remember reading a quote from George in reference to it.) Could that put Tisha B'av toward the end of August, centuries ago? Is it perhaps even possible that 2,000 years ago, it could have been in September (according to backtracking our own calendar)? I have heard Jesus' real birthday theorized has having possibly taken place in September.

A lot of conjecture, I completely agree. But it's an interesting thought. We know we have lost many books and writings that are mentioned in the Bible, such as the Book of the Wars of the Lord, the book of Jasher, and so forth. Could it be that this "tradition" comes from other writings of some genuine Jewish prophet three millenia ago or so?

Does anyone here know more about the Jewish calendar, or especially about the existence of this Jewish tradition regarding the Messiah's birth? Just curious. :)

[GrayPilgrim]

I don't now about that tradition. I had always heard the birth of Messiah linked with Sukkoth (Feast of Booths) which is Sept/Oct, as opposed to Tisha b'Av

[bar Jonah]

Interesting. Nevertheless, I read this from a Jewish scholar of the Kabbalah. Don't get me wrong, it is entirely possible this is a literal inconsistency/contradiction between basic Judaism and the Kabbalah.

[Jade]

I think that would be quite ironic if Jesus had been born on the 9th of Av. Many sad things have occured on that day, so much so that some fear the day. It would be ironic and somewhat fitting if that were true (this is of course speculation and would be very difficult to prove). The cornerstone that the builder rejected came from Nazareth where it was once said, "Can any good come from Nazareth?"

[bar Jonah]

I think it's a bit of a stretch that He might have been born on Tisha B'av... but as far as I know (which is little, in this area), it's not impossible. Which is why I was hoping someone more knowledgeable might have some input. :)

[Socrates]

I rather doubt that Jesus was born on a special day. Matthew was so keen to look for either historical or typological fulfillment in Jesus' life that it seems strange that he would have overlooked a chance to make something of His birth.

Note that this is not the fallacious argument from silence, but a valid one from conspicuous absense.

But I'm not worried if anyone thinks Jesus really was born on a feast day, or even on 25 Dec!

[bar Jonah]

I'm not so sure, Socrates. I have a friend who works in a Messianic Jewish ministry, whose opinions and teachings I hold to be very valuable. I have found that Messianic Jews often have some amazing things to share and contribute, which one is often unlikely to even learn anywhere else. Their uniquely Jewish perspective is often of great value, as Jesus came first for the Jews.

I ran this hypothetical by Jeff, and he said that while scripture is obviously silent on the issue, he has long believed Jesus was likely born on some significant day, as God generally likes to work that way to begin with. God works with certain numbers of significance, gives people specific names of significance (just look at Barabbas' first name -- Jesus!), and does things on specific days of significance. The day of Pentacost was not just any other day ... it was a Jewish feast day. The feast of Firstfruits! And that day was the first fruits of the Church. No coincidence at all.

Jeff confirmed that it is entirely possible Jesus was born on Tisha B'av, and that he wouldn't be surprised in the least if this turned out to be the case. But because scripture is silent, we can't know one way or another. Not yet, anyway. :)

[Socrates]

RightIdea:

I can also resort to the Argumentum ad Verecundiam fallacy, because the I got this from reading something by erudite Hebrew Christian scholar Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, founder of Ariel Ministries (http://www.ariel.org/), made the same point.

I also think that the Pentecost reference supports rather than conflicts with my point, since here there was a ref to a special day.

And if you want another coincidence, Barabbas is just the Greek rendition of Bar Abba, or Son of the Father.

Soc.

[Sera Sixwings]

02-16-2003 @ 08:18 AM
RightIdea:

Jeff confirmed that it is entirely possible Jesus was born on Tisha B'av, and that he wouldn't be surprised in the least if this turned out to be the case. But because scripture is silent, we can't know one way or another.Hi.

What does it mean to say that "it is entirely possible Jesus was born on Tisha B'Av"?

Maybe another way to ask this is: on what days of the Jewish calendar would the birth be 'entirely impossible'? One might just as well note that "it is entirely possible Jesus was born on April Fools Day"! :ahem:

Furthermore, according to Jewish tradition Tisha B'Av is a day of tragedy. Why would that suggest a birth prophesy?

[bar Jonah]

Every day of the year is not reasonably up for the possibility of Jesus' birth. Jesus was burn in late summer or during autumn. Not in the spring or the middle of winter. So April 1 is not up for likelihood.

Tisha B'av is more in mid-summer, so it may be outside the reasonably likely "window of opportunity," so to speak. I don't know if Tisha B'av is too early to reasonably consider it as a possibility for Jesus' birth. That's exactly why I raised the question.

[Sera Sixwings]

[02-27-2003 @ 07:29 PM] - RightIdea:

Every day of the year is not reasonably up for the possibility of Jesus' birth. Jesus was burn in late summer or during autumn. Not in the spring or the middle of winter.Hi.

I'm sorry. I guess that I never really looked into it all that well. I can understand why you would preclude "the middle of winter" but what is the Scriptural basis for excluding spring? I hope it's not a dumb question ...