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Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat

June 26th 2003, 01:08 PM

Question line #2

Got a brochure called “The Restoration Study Guide 3” from one of my youth that had been visited by LDS missionaries. I have some questions I would like explained from LDS perspective.

Page 1 says, “God is the only source from which eternal truth can come. To help understand the truth, he not capitalized? speaks through his prophets. The revelations to prophets are recorded in scripture.”

Other than the grammatical note I made, I have these issues/questions

What about the Holy Spirit? Does He not teach us truth?

Is the Prophet claiming sole ability to teach truth?

What about those called to be teachers? Do they not have the spiritual calling to teach the truth?

Page 1 also says, “God has revealed the truth through prophets” and lists Amos3:7, 2 Peter 1:20-21, and 1 Nephi 22:2

How do these verses in context support what has been stated here?

Page 1 says “Jesus called apostles and prophets who would lead the Church through revelation after he was gone. He gave them the priesthood authority to speak and act in his name.”

Where did Jesus call prophets? He called disciples whom later became apostles.

Did He not send the Holy Spirit to lead the Church?

Where did Jesus confer any priesthood on anyone?

Page 2 says, “Many gospel truths were lost and were replaced by the teachings of men.” And lists Isaiah 29:13-14, Amos 8:11, 2 Thess 2:1-3, 1 Tim 1:5-7, and 2 Nep 28:9-14

Did not Jesus apply Isaiah to the Pharisees who claimed unique understanding above everyone else?

Was not the Amos verse specifically talking to the Jews and not early Christians?

Was the Thessalonians passage not referring to the tribulation period apostasy?

Is not the Timothy verse talking specifically about those trying to revert to the law?

The rest of the pamphlet is hinged on these few premises. I look forward to the responses.

:btc:

John Powell

June 27th 2003, 04:53 PM

BILL THE CAT:
LDS and Former #2
[post#1]

Question line #2

Got a brochure called "The Restoration Study Guide 3" from one of my youth that had been visited by LDS missionaries. I have some questions I would like explained from LDS perspective.

Page 1 says, "God is the only source from which eternal truth can come. To help understand the truth, he [not capitalized?] speaks through his prophets. The revelations to prophets are recorded in scripture."

JOHN MORMON (Believer):
Mormons don't capitalize pronouns referring to deity as often as other Christians do. This is probably due to a number of factors, two being:

1. The KJV Bible doesn't do that either.

2. Mormons think of God as being more like us than other Christians think.

POWELL (Atheist):
Mormons might capitalize such pronouns more in the future since there are efforts in the current leadership to make Mormonism appear more orthodox Christian whereas earlier leaders tried to make Mormonism appear more "peculiar."

BILL THE CAT:
Other than the grammatical note I made, I have these issues/questions

What about the Holy Spirit? Does He not teach us truth?

JOHN MORMON:
I would take "God" to mean the Godhead in this context, rather than "The Father," although this latter may be what the author meant.

POWELL:
If Mormons slur the meaning of Godhead so it can mean God then scriptures like Isaiah that speak of only one God might be easier for them to harmonize.

BILL THE CAT:
Is the Prophet claiming sole ability to teach truth?

JOHN MORMON:
No, but what the Prophet says should be respected more than what any lesser authority might say.

POWELL:
Problems might arise when the modern prophet appears to contradict what former prophets said.

I think the Prophet is pressured to stay on safe doctrinal turf, whereas Apostles, religion teachers, and others can more often afford to promote less secure doctrine. That's different than the old days of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young where the teaching of revolutionary ideas was an important part of promoting their new religion.

BILL THE CAT:
What about those called to be teachers? Do they not have the spiritual calling to teach the truth?

JOHN MORMON:
They do, but if their teaching contradicts the words of the Prophet then they should be lovingly, but firmly, corrected by their priesthood leaders.

POWELL:
A problem can arise when someone feels they've received a "special" revelation that hasn't been taught churchwide. Mormon doctrine allows for this (Nephi, for example, was receiving revelations while his father, the prophet Lehi, was still alive). However, Mormon practice discourages it.

BILL THE CAT:
Page 1 also says, "God has revealed the truth through prophets" and lists Amos3:7, 2 Peter 1:20-21, and 1 Nephi 22:2

How do these verses in context support what has been stated here?

JOHN MORMON:
Ok, let's look at those scriptures.

AMOS 3:7 (KJV):
7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

JOHN MORMON:
Amos is saying that if God does or is going to do anything important then God will tell His prophets. We Mormons believe God is going to do important things in our day, so we need modern prophets to inform us.

2 Pet 1:20-21 (KJV):
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

JOHN MORMON:
These verses indicate that to receive or understand the prophecies of God one needs to be inspired by the Holy Ghost. People without the power of the Holy Ghost cannot prophesy and are less likely to understand what any particular prophecy means. It further suggests to me that the best people today to interprete the old prophecies are modern prophets.

1 Ne 22:2 (Book of Mormon):
2 And I, Nephi, said unto them: Behold they were manifest unto the prophet by the voice of the Spirit; for by the Spirit are all things made known unto the prophets, which shall come upon the children of men according to the flesh.

JOHN MORMON:
Prophets receive truth from God by the voice of the Holy Spirit. Even when Elohim, Jehovah, or an angel makes a visit, the Holy Spirit confirms the truth of the message to the spirit of the prophet.

BILL THE CAT:
Page 1 says "Jesus called apostles and prophets who would lead the Church through revelation after he was gone. He gave them the priesthood authority to speak and act in his name."

Where did Jesus call prophets? He called disciples whom later became apostles.

JOHN MORMON:
Ok, let's see.

Ephesians 4:11 (KJV):
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

JOHN MORMON:
Jesus may not have personally given authority (laid on hands and said the prayer) to every one of these He "gave," but it was surely done under His authority.

I've heard that stake and churchwide patriarchs served the same role as evangelists, but maybe modern missionaries is a better match. Also, I think a pastor is essentially the same thing as a bishop, namely a shepherd.

POWELL:
I didn't notice this before because of the way people generally read this scripture without pausing at the commas, but this passage in the KJV could mean "And to some people he gave them apostles; and to other people he gave them prophets; and to other people he gave them evangelists; and to even others, he gave them pastors and teachers." Other translations, however, clarify that the usual meaning (which essentially eliminates the commas and turns the semicolons into commas) is probably the correct one.

BILL THE CAT:
Did He not send the Holy Spirit to lead the Church?

JOHN MORMON:
Not to lead the church. Jesus has remained the head of His church. The Holy Spirit is a comforter, a revealer of truth, not the "leader" of the church. The Earthly representatives of Jesus, the leaders "on the ground," are people like prophets, apostles, patriarchs, bishops, and teachers.

BILL THE CAT:
Where did Jesus confer any priesthood on anyone?

JOHN MORMON:
His disciples and those other people mentioned in Eph 4:11 needed priesthood authority to do the things they did. They either got the priesthood directly from Jesus or from someone designated by Jesus.

John 15:16 (KJV):
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

JOHN MORMON:
Presumably Jesus gave the priesthood to each of the original 12 apostles and many of the others He "gave" in Eph 4:11.

BILL THE CAT:
Page 2 says, "Many gospel truths were lost and were replaced by the teachings of men." And lists Isaiah 29:13-14, Amos 8:11, 2 Thess 2:1-3, 1 Tim 1:5-7, and 2 Nep 28:9-14

Did not Jesus apply Isaiah to the Pharisees who claimed unique understanding above everyone else?

JOHN MORMON:
Matt 15:1 says He was speaking to some scribes and Pharisees, whom He called hypocrites in verse 7.

Mormons think this scripture applies to more than just the hypocrites of Jesus' day. Joseph Smith was told something similar about his day. The religious leaders were claiming to believe in God but were denying the possibility of modern prophets and scriptures and such things.

BILL THE CAT:
Was not the Amos verse specifically talking to the Jews and not early Christians?

JOHN MORMON:
Since God is fair and no respecter of persons, when God speaks to one person or one people, the principle taught is generally applicable to all.

Mormons see this "famine of hearing the words of the Lord" as one of the prophecies of the great Apostacy after the death of the Apostles of Jesus Christ. I'll concede that this prophecy might have also referred to something that would happen to the Jews before the coming of Jesus.

BILL THE CAT:
Was the Thessalonians passage not referring to the tribulation period apostasy?

JOHN MORMON:
The difficulties suffered by the Jews and Christians around 70 A.D. are probably no match to the tribulation that will befall the world before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 2:2 speaks of the "day of Christ." We Mormons understand this to be the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the tribulations around 70 A.D.

Paul is warning the Thessalonians to not think the "day of Christ is at hand," meaning that it would not happen soon, but only after a "falling away," which we understand to be the general Apostacy that existed until the restoration by God through Joseph Smith.

BILL THE CAT:
Is not the Timothy verse talking specifically about those trying to revert to the law?

JOHN MORMON:
Perhaps. However, again it surely can be applied to people trying to subvert religious laws besides just the Mosaic Law.

BILL THE CAT:
The rest of the pamphlet is hinged on these few premises. I look forward to the responses.

JOHN MORMON:
I'm glad to be of service.

POWELL:
Mormon apologists seem to have done a pretty good job of finding Biblical scriptures that support their unique doctrines, but maybe you'll find important holes they never plugged, Bill.

John Powell