The pagan goddess of fertility and life: Asherah - A Biblical View of the Baals [Archive]

tmancour

October 20th 2005, 04:48 PM

In all of history, I find curious a rare, yet fascinating saga. One, in which, few if any would have believed the truth. In actuality, the Bible barely touches on the reality here of:Baals.

In Canaan, at the head of the Baals, was the god El. His wife was Asherah, a goddess who is also mentioned in the Bible. El married his three sisters, one of whom was Astarte, and who was referred to as Ashtaroth in the OT. (Judges 10:6) El killed not only his brother but also his son, then cut off his daughters head, castrated his father, castrated himself (equal treatment I guess, equal time) and compelled his confederates to do the same. Now that is just the beginning, and hardly sounds healthy or a model for a kind of fertility cult.

Gotta quibble with you, there. The myth of the primordial god/giant/beast who was slain and dissected to become the earth is a very wide ranging myth, not only appearing in Semmetic religions but also in Norse (the frost giant Ymir), Greek (Chronos), Babylonian (Tiamat), Egyptian, Hindu, Native American, Polynesian, African animist, etc. etc.

Why does this bloody-seeming dismemberment appear so frequently in ancient myth? One could conjecture that our pagan ancestors were a bunch of bloodthirsty barbarians who had no concern for life, pain, and the like. But that would be wrong.

The dying-and-dismembered god whose body creates the world usually appears about the same time a culture develops agriculture. The story of the death (and return to life) of the god is usually considered a parable about the crop cycle. In hunter-gatherer societies, the wild animal spirits are responsible for meat, and the goddess brings the wild plants to be harvested. Rites and rituals in these tribal societies often revolve around coming-of-age rites of passage, appeasement of the animal spirits, and simple animism.

After agriculture, though, things get more complicated. Thanking the spirit of a wild ram for its sacrifice is one thing -- there was some skill in hunting that gave it a fighting chance to live. Slaughtering a domesticated sheep, on the other hand, while convenient, leaves an emotional stain that needs to be seen to by different rites entirely -- hence the "orgiastic rites of Pan" and similar herder religions. And as a culture develops from slash-and-burn simple agro to a serious grain culture, seeing the land as a dismembered body of a god, whose sacrifice at the begining of time led to the bountiful Earth, is a pretty natural leap. Consider the Eleusinian Mysteries, and the interplay of Ceres, Persephone, and Hades.

Consider also the "John Barleycorn" song, very late in the agricultural cycle. The grain is lamented, and guilt at raising "poor John" from the ground only to cut his "throat", hang him, whip (thresh) him, grind him between two stones, drown him, and leave him in a barrel (to ferment into beer). Pretty brutal way to treat the thing that gives you life -- but celebrating the "sacrifice" of the grain god is part of removing that stain.

So, false gods? :huh: Oh, who can reason objectively these days, I think we should love and accept these self-mutilating deities, and invite them for tea! :) Next time, we could relish a kindly discourse of the tales of Ashtaroth. Do you enjoy blood, sex, lewd, vicious, and licentious tales of Holy Whores? Are you ready to meet a warrior "goddess" and have parts of your body cut off?

Hmmm. This borders on insulting, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt, as you don't really seem to understand the complexities of paleopagan (and therefore neopagan) beliefs.

While you may call them "false gods" and revile their bloody origins and behaviors, try to see it in the same context that early Christians were forced to deal with: the accusation by mis-understanding Pagans about the nature of the Eucharist. On the surface they were quite justified to recoil in horror about this wacky Jewish cult that engaged in dark rites of cannibalism -- but as a Christian you know that Holy Comunion is no such thing. The paleopagan rites are similarly misunderstood by modern Christians, who have no context in which to view them save the very narrow and rigid context of the women-hating patriarchal Semetic tribal religion as practiced by the ancient Hebrews.

Our myths are bloody because animal sacrifice -- that is, the ritual slaying of a herd animal for the purpose of a sanctified meal -- was bloody. As a matter of fact, the remnants of the practice are still held within the Kosher rites, whereas most Pagans have abandoned them. That does not erase the stain of killing your food, but most Pagans I know are happy to thank the beast that they eat. As far as sex goes -- yes, sexuality is considered sacred by most Pagan religions. Duh. Sex is what brings the crops to harvest and the lambs to foal and the babies to birth. Sex is pretty important -- after respiration and consumption, it is the MOST important aspect of human life, and therefore worthy of reverence. The entire universe is a sex act. Only under radical monotheism are our ancient priestesses, dispensers of divine Caritas, reduced to the insulting "Holy Whores" and denied their right place as keepers of the balance of society. Only within a religion where the only God has a penis, with no complementary Vagina in sight, is the essence of Woman, who brings forth life, denegrated so badly.

See, why go out for entertainment, when you can read your Bible? :yes:

Question, do we other objective historical sources for these pagan beliefs and practices?

Actually, there are plenty of historical sources. Most are a little more objective than the Bible, which I see as Haigiography, not history in any meaningful sense. Pick up Mircea Eliade's "A History Of Religious Ideas" and read the first two volumes and you'll begin to understand.

Arion the Blue
High Druid of Durham

Timothy Leary

October 20th 2005, 08:00 PM

What did they call Yaweh before he told them his name was Yaweh?

Assuming such a time existed, you'd have a plethora of other titles that were commonly used. El, Elohim, Adonai, etc.

But, assuming the bible is correct, even Avraham knew God's name.

MuggleOrSquib

October 21st 2005, 03:11 PM

Assuming such a time existed, you'd have a plethora of other titles that were commonly used. El, Elohim, Adonai, etc.

But, assuming the bible is correct, even Avraham knew God's name.

If I recall correctly, there is evidence that the name 'Ya' was used in Ebla. There is also a diety 'Yw' mentioned in the Ugaritic corpus (14th century BCE, North Syrian coast).
As to documentation regarding the Canaanite gods, the most complete information comes from Ugarit, which while not exactly Canaanite is apparently culturally and linquistically fairly close. Most if not all of the Ugaritic religious texts have been translated into English.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

Richbee

October 22nd 2005, 12:33 AM

Hi, Clutch,

The word "Ba'al" actually just means Lord, Master, Owner, or Husband. It's a title, not a name: the feminine form is Ba'alat (Phoenician) or Ba'alah (Hebrew), and the Hebrew plural is Ba'alim. It's used of reverence to Gods, but it's also used in the Old Testament of human beings with no religious connotation.

Similarly, El is simply the word for "God"; similar forms are found in almost all Semitic languages. Indeed, YHVH is called "El" some 200+ times in the Old Testament.

[/i]Well ... perhaps it wouold be a good idea to show your sources for these myths. There are a lot of myths out there, but some are authentic, some poorly translated, and some are really just crap.

However, I also encourage to to do some more reading on the Semitic Gods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_gods). Seeing the inter-relatedness of the languages (and indeed, of the various mythoi) can help clear up some real confusions.

Not quite to say that El = God. I suppose it depends on the text and context.

How would "god" as in an idol of wood or clay be the same as the God of Abraham, and I have noticed a long thread about the exact meaning of YHVH. There are 12 names for God and the EL is followed by aspects or names describing the many dimessions known and worshipped for the God of the Hebrews.

This thread is about the ancient fertility goddess mentioned in the Bible, and do believe that evidence has been found for this goddess her Father? Sisters?

And, original source, from Babylon?

Richbee

October 22nd 2005, 12:51 AM

Gotta quibble with you, there.

O.K., but we do have a topic here about this fertility goddess Asherah. There will be more to follow, as we certainly find more and better sources?

The myth of the primordial god/giant/beast who was slain and dissected to become the earth is a very wide ranging myth, not only appearing in Semmetic religions but also in Norse (the frost giant Ymir), Greek (Chronos), Babylonian (Tiamat), Egyptian, Hindu, Native American, Polynesian, African animist, etc. etc.

O.K. Chronos? Not really similar to Asherah? Hmmm, let's see, Uranus fathers Chronos only to have Chronos overthrow his rule. Then Chronos fathers Zeus, and Zeus rises up and overthrows Chronos.

Now, Tiamat? A god of chaos and destruction, rules until she is destroyed in fierce battle with Marduk. Marduk then establishes Babylon as a symbol of his glory. But there is more!

QUICK QUIZ:

Enuma Elish (www.cresourcei.org/enumaelish.html) provides a creation account of Apsu and Tiamat giving birth to Anshar and Kishar, who bears Anu, who bears Ea, but Ea kills Apsu, Marduk is born, Tiamat takes Kingu as husband, Ea loses to Tiamat, as does Anu, and Marduk cuts Tiamat's body in half, forming the sky and earth.

Which of the following is true?

A) Obviously, the entire Genesis account is copied from it.

B) In fact, the name Marduk spelled sideways in some ancient language is Yahweh.

C) Indeed, there is no way anyone could have written a creation story without copying it from somewhere.

D) Genesis is nothing like this story and may have even been written to counter the false notions of its contemporary pagan creation myths.

(Source: J.P. Holding)

Why does this bloody-seeming dismemberment appear so frequently in ancient myth? One could conjecture that our pagan ancestors were a bunch of bloodthirsty barbarians who had no concern for life, pain, and the like. But that would be wrong.

Oh? Just the gods playing with swords, and divine power? Now the Baals were different, no? Asheroh?

Richbee

October 22nd 2005, 12:58 AM

Whats an 'objective historical source', other than a pipedream?

We have sources detailing (for example) the Epic of Gilgamesh and other ANE beliefs but I don't think many of them would qualify as 'objective'. Stuff like inscriptions on charms provide useful evidence again. The links between these and Israel's monotheism are pretty difficult to untangle though. There are plenty of scholars who think that early Israelite religion was canaanite religion (because the Israelites were originally canaanites) but I personally find the evidence for that questionable. Similarly finding cultic objects within Israel doesn't really prove much because the Scriptures acknowledge that Israel was constantly flirting with other gods. Anyway there is certainly plenty of non-biblical evidence concerning ANE religions and their practices...

Interesting and time for a QUICK QUIZ:

How can the Bible be compared to................

The Gilgamesh Epic

In 1853, the archaeologist Austen Henry Layard and his team were excavating the palace library of the ancient Assyrian capital Nineveh. Among their finds were a series of 12 tablets of a great epic. The tablets dated from about 650 BC, but the poem was much older. The hero, Gilgamesh, according to the Sumerian King List,3 was a king of the first dynasty of Uruk who reigned for 126 years.4

However, in the legend, Gilgamesh is 2/3 divine and 1/3 mortal. He has enormous intelligence and strength, but oppresses his people. The people call upon the gods, and the sky-god Anu, the chief god of the city, makes a wild man called Enkidu with enough strength to match Gilgamesh. Eventually the two fight, but neither can win. Their enmity becomes mutual respect then devoted friendship.

The two new friends set off on adventures together, but eventually the gods kill Enkidu. Gilgamesh grievously mourns his friend, and realizes that he too must eventually die. However, he learns of one who became immortal—Utnapishtim, the survivor of a global Flood. Gilgamesh travels across the sea to find Utnapishtim, who tells of his remarkable life.

The Gilgamesh Flood (www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0329gilgamesh.asp)

James Peter

October 22nd 2005, 05:01 AM

Interesting and time for a QUICK QUIZ

Isn't it usual for a quiz to contain questions? :lol:

And my personal stance on Gilgamesh is that it contains strands of truth but obviously warped by a couple of thousand years of oral tradition...I certainly don't fall into the camp that considers that Genesis copied the Flood narrative, but its an interesting read and perhaps points to there actually having been a major flood (at least within the Near East).

tmancour

October 22nd 2005, 10:02 AM

Isn't it usual for a quiz to contain questions? :lol:

And my personal stance on Gilgamesh is that it contains strands of truth but obviously warped by a couple of thousand years of oral tradition...I certainly don't fall into the camp that considers that Genesis copied the Flood narrative, but its an interesting read and perhaps points to there actually having been a major flood (at least within the Near East).

I would have to say that the myth of the flood in both Genesis and Gilgamesh spring from a common Semetic ur-myth, probably based on an actual event that was mythologized as time went on. Not a surprising inclusion, considering the importance of floods and flooding to both the Egyptian and Babylonian/Akkadian civilizations. It is quite likely that this ur-myth got entangled with both sources.

Arion

Richbee

October 22nd 2005, 01:47 PM

I would have to say that the myth of the flood in both Genesis and Gilgamesh spring from a common Semetic ur-myth,

Nope.

Totally different meanings and purpose. Go double check the castrated little dogs who ran to heaven to get out of the rain. :huh:

...... probably based on an actual event that was mythologized as time went on.

Really? Can you prove that?

Not a surprising inclusion, considering the importance of floods and flooding to both the Egyptian and Babylonian/Akkadian civilizations. It is quite likely that this ur-myth got entangled with both sources.

Arion

Sure, and why not include the miracle of the Rainbow and God's promise to Noah?

Richbee

October 22nd 2005, 01:48 PM

tmancour

October 22nd 2005, 03:27 PM

Go figure. Truth is relative, write your own story. Hollywood is always looking for script writers.

FINALLY! You understand!

Arion

Richbee

October 22nd 2005, 07:15 PM

FINALLY! You understand!

Arion

Sure, and every "path" leads to eternal life!?

What can be objectively proven as true historical fact?

Astarte (www.pantheon.org/articles/a/astarte.html)

by Peter Wyche

The Phoenician goddess of fertility and reproduction and the principal deity of the port city of Sidon. As Astarte she was worshipped as far west as Carthage, Sicily, Sardinia and Cyprus. She was also the sister and co-consort of Baal, sharing this role with their sister Anath. Astarte is also known as Istar in Akkadian and Athtar in Sabaean.

(Also known as Ashtaroth in the OT: Judges 10:6)

Wait just one minute, so many gods, so little time!?

Anath

by Dr Anthony E. Smith

Chief West Semitic goddess of love and war, the sister and helpmate of the god Baal (Bel). Once she slayed all his enemies at a feast. She is a goddess with four differing aspects: mother, virgin, warrior, and wanton. Though a "mother" she was ever a "virgin". Her lust for blood, and or sex, was legendary. She was worshipped throughout Canaan, Syria and Phoenicia. She was a popular goddess of war and fertility. She was largely syncretized with Asherah and Astarte, and so there is some confusion as to her myths and relationship to other deities of the area.

Pantheon.org (www.pantheon.org/articles/a/anath.html)

Richbee

October 22nd 2005, 08:06 PM

Assuming such a time existed, you'd have a plethora of other titles that were commonly used. El, Elohim, Adonai, etc.

But, assuming the bible is correct, even Avraham knew God's name.

Sure, the Hebrews did have more than one name for G-d.

Back to our topic, and consider: Bel

The name of the Assyrio-Babylonian gods En-lil and Marduk. It has the same meaning as Baal.

Do you recall the New Testament term: Beelzebub? Baal-Zebub or Satan. Baal worship is Satan or demon worship from a Biblical or Christian Worldview. Is Baal worship with us, even now in the 21st century?

tmancour

October 23rd 2005, 11:37 AM

Sure, and every "path" leads to eternal life!?

Why would I want eternal life? That would be a conceit. And unnatural. What would be the point? I'm happy with the whole reincarnation thing. One life, no matter how long, would limit the potential growth of my soul. Eternal Life is only sought by those too afraid of Death to enoy what they have.

What can be objectively proven as true historical fact?

Virtually nothing. You must accept the perfect veracity of historical records in order to "prove" a "true historical fact", and IMO there is every reason to suspect the truth of any written word. Lying wasn't simultaneously invented with the printing press.

Arion

tmancour

October 23rd 2005, 11:40 AM

Is Baal worship with us, even now in the 21st century?

Actually, I did meet a couple a few years ago who were Semetic Pagans, blending Wicca and traditional Semetic religion (the two are not mutually exclusive; this is a well-accepted practice in Wicca) and who worshipped Astarte and Baal. So, yes, Baal worship is still alive and well.

Arion

Durthorin

October 23rd 2005, 01:26 PM

Actually, I did meet a couple a few years ago who were Semetic Pagans, blending Wicca and traditional Semetic religion (the two are not mutually exclusive; this is a well-accepted practice in Wicca) and who worshipped Astarte and Baal. So, yes, Baal worship is still alive and well.

Arion

I think you can find just about every God or Goddess still being worshiped. I also know those who call to Astarte. Personally my leanings are towards the Celtic dieties, but I've found that in many ways that is a matter of the spirit and what resonates with each of us.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Richbee

October 23rd 2005, 09:43 PM

Actually, I did meet a couple a few years ago who were Semetic Pagans, blending Wicca and traditional Semetic religion (the two are not mutually exclusive; this is a well-accepted practice in Wicca) and who worshipped Astarte and Baal. So, yes, Baal worship is still alive and well.

Arion

Yes, I think so, there are many "sex" cults and many worship hmmm, the sex organs even today. Abortion (infraticide) is very popular with these folks. The more things change the more things stay the same? Is there any act or activity that is "evil" and can be objectively defined so?

technomage

October 23rd 2005, 10:05 PM

Yes, I think so, there are many "sex" cults and many worship hmmm, the sex organs even today. Abortion (infraticide) is very popular with these folks. The more things change the more things stay the same?

Hmmm ... accusations of priapic worship and infanticide. But what does priapic worship or infanticide have to do with Wicca?

Is there any act or activity that is "evil" and can be objectively defined so?

Well, last I heard, bearing false witness was considered "evil" within Christianity ... so I'd be careful with how you respond to my question.

tmancour

October 24th 2005, 01:51 AM

Yes, I think so, there are many "sex" cults and many worship hmmm, the sex organs even today.

I do know of one major faith who uses a very phallic symbol . . .

An attempt to bait by making "sex" cults a lurid and wicked thing says more about you than it does the Pagan religions. Yes, there are sex and fertility cults aplenty within Paganism, both Neo and Paleo. However, the fact that many of us see sex as a sacrement -- perhaps the greatest expression of the pure divine creative force open to humanity -- shouldn't be news. Or even lurid. And the "sex organs" are not worshipped, they are represented in various cultures and religions as the fundamental building blocks of all animal life on this planet -- the essential "family values". Just ask the Shakers how important sex is . . . oh, wait, you can't. They died out.

That you would denegrate the sex act and by extension the male/female dynamic is typical of a religion that places high value on virginity and celibacy, that considers the naked female breast to be profane and every "immodest" statue pornography. One of the reasons I chose a life-affirming religion, as opposed to one obsessed by death.

Abortion (infraticide) is very popular with these folks. The more things change the more things stay the same?

You have some data to share? Your sources?

Or, better yet, a point?

Is there any act or activity that is "evil" and can be objectively defined so?

Causing pointless suffering is about the only truly objective "evil" I can name off hand -- but then again evil is a socio-cultural construct.

Arion

Richbee

October 24th 2005, 07:58 PM

Hmmm ... accusations of priapic worship and infanticide. But what does priapic worship or infanticide have to do with Wicca?

Actually these so called Goddesses and consorts of the Fertility Goddess have been said to be similar to a Mother Earth goddess or various names of same. Pick a name? Or, pick one? Go on, it's all relative.

Infraticide is part of the sex cult, or Temple practices, and really a whore house with a so called Priest. Babies get in the way of the "religion".

Well, last I heard, bearing false witness was considered "evil" within Christianity ... so I'd be careful with how you respond to my question.

I'm not a first hand witness, and I did cite objective sources, and not really Christain. But word to the wise, if it's in the Bible, it's true and real. It all dates back to Genesis 11. (And, as noted, the Biblical spelling for these supposed enities did throw off Historians and Archeologists for a time.)

Richbee

October 24th 2005, 08:06 PM

I do know of one major faith who uses a very phallic symbol . . .

An attempt to bait by making "sex" cults a lurid and wicked thing says more about you than it does the Pagan religions. Yes, there are sex and fertility cults aplenty within Paganism, both Neo and Paleo. However, the fact that many of us see sex as a sacrement -- perhaps the greatest expression of the pure divine creative force open to humanity -- shouldn't be news. Or even lurid. And the "sex organs" are not worshipped, they are represented in various cultures and religions as the fundamental building blocks of all animal life on this planet -- the essential "family values". Just ask the Shakers how important sex is . . . oh, wait, you can't. They died out.

That you would denegrate the sex act and by extension the male/female dynamic is typical of a religion that places high value on virginity and celibacy, that considers the naked female breast to be profane and every "immodest" statue pornography. One of the reasons I chose a life-affirming religion, as opposed to one obsessed by death.

You have some data to share? Your sources?

Or, better yet, a point?

Causing pointless suffering is about the only truly objective "evil" I can name off hand -- but then again evil is a socio-cultural construct.

Arion

God created Adam and Eve, and yes, Sex, and it is indeed good. The Bible reveals many different experiences or sexual relations. Sex in Marriage is the model, and very good indeed.

Now, prostitution is revealed as wrong and harmful, and no surprise as the old proffession, it too is in the Bible.

Now Baal worship, or Temple prostitution is only hinted at.

Recall, that Paul preached 1 Corinthians 13, the greatest treatise of LOVE, under a Temple to Aphodite containing hundreds of Prostitutes.

In the Roman empire women had very few if any rights, especially the lower classes. It's interesting that with Christianity, many women choose not to marry or have sex, but to serve God. One plus for these women is that they lived longer, and led healthier lives. (One can only imagine the fate of Protitutes?) And, yes, the Shakers choose a pure or Holy path or chaste life, and but this is nothing new in Christian history. To each their own path in Christianity? Do all pagans or neo-pagans choose to be sexually active?

technomage

October 24th 2005, 09:15 PM

Actually these so called Goddesses and consorts of the Fertility Goddess have been said to be similar to a Mother Earth goddess or various names of same.

I'll ask again--what does this have to do with Wicca. Anything?

Richbee

October 24th 2005, 10:01 PM

I'll ask again--what does this have to do with Wicca. Anything?

From a Biblical or Christian view point, a "god" or "goddess" is actually all in the same realm. Now, for many some, as an example Istar may have been or become Aphodite or Venus, etc. Now, I'm not up on fertility goddesses throughout all time. Celts had their own and on one level really not the same, but are you sure?

Mother Goddess? Really the same in my view. Not real, just the creation of one's imagination, but the spiritual force or the "spirit" in one in the same. Have you heard of familar spirits?

Baal = Lord?

Who is the Lord and Lady?

Durthorin

October 24th 2005, 10:33 PM

From a Biblical or Christian view point, a "god" or "goddess" is actually all in the same realm. Now, for many some, as an example Istar may have been or become Aphodite or Venus, etc. Now, I'm not up on fertility goddesses throughout all time. Celts had their own and on one level really not the same, but are you sure?
...

Who is the Lord and Lady?

As someone who worships the Celtic aspects of God and Goddess.. I'd be interested in what your pointing at. We also have our Gods and Goddesses that interact with life and death. From my standpoint I accept that all fundimental Christians believe that if I'm worshiping anything but Christ its a form of devil worship.

As for who the Lord and Lady are.. they are the Aspect of male and female diety.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Richbee

October 24th 2005, 10:52 PM

As someone who worships the Celtic aspects of God and Goddess.. I'd be interested in what your pointing at. We also have our Gods and Goddesses that interact with life and death. From my standpoint I accept that all fundimental Christians believe that if I'm worshiping anything but Christ its a form of devil worship.

As for who the Lord and Lady are.. they are the Aspect of male and female diety.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Certainly.

Give thought, and from Gods, sites and Peoples...

Baal

The worship of fire is associated with both Baal and Moloch in ancient times. There is the familiar story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal in I Kings 18. An idea of the extent of Baal worship is found in Ireland. Abundant traces are preserved to this day in place names and in dedications of ancient temples to Baal. The tradition remains at Glendalough, County Wicklow, Ireland, that in ancient times the heathen priest used to ascend the fine round stone tower, now restored, and at sunrise called aloud the name of Baal four times, once from each of the four openings at the summit of the tower which face the cardinal points of the compass. Baal worship is believed to have continued until the time of St. Patrick. There are many remnants of old fire worship and sacrifice of children to Moloch in Scotland. Only a century ago on an estate in Scotland it was the practice of peasants on May Day to gather round a fire and throw their children across from one to another through the fire. Other similar descriptions come from Devonshire and in Ireland at fires called Beltina, or Baal fires. Beltane is the name of the first of May in Scotland which even now commemorates the ancient name of Bel.

Richbee

October 24th 2005, 11:06 PM

Footnote:

O.K.

Baal = "lord"

the supreme male divinity of the Phoenician and Canaanitish nations, as Ashtoreth was their supreme female divinity.

Now, in keep with my intended topic, the word Baalim is the Hebrew plural for BAAL, the pagan god of nature and fertility. I quote from the Westminster Dictionary of the Bible article 'BAAL' (emphasis mine)

"... Baal worship apparently had its origin in the belief that every tract of ground owed its productivity to a supernatural being, or baal, that dwelt there. The farmers probably thought that from the Baalim, or fertility gods, of various regions came the increase of crops, fruit and cattle ... The worship of Baal was accompanied with lascivious rites (1 Kings 14:24), the sacrifice of children in the fire by parents (Jer.19:5), and kissing the image (1 Kings 19:18; Hos 13:2). Baal was often associated with the goddess Astoreth (Judg.2:13), and in the vicinity of his altar there was often an Asherah. (Judg.6:30; 1 Kings 16:32-33,R.V.)"

Of the goddess ASTORETH the same dictionary says:

"... She was the goddess of sexual love, maternity and fertility. Prostitution as a religious rite in the service of this goddess under various names is widely attested. The identification of 'Ashtart with Aphrodite is evidence of her sexual character."

"Ashtaroth (plural of Astoreth). In connection with the plural of Baal, a general designation for the female divinities of the Canaanites ..."

"Asherah refers to a wooden pole or mast which stood at Canaanite places of worship (Exo.34:13); originally it was, perhaps, the trunk of a tree with branches chopped off, and was regarded as the wooden symbol of the goddess Asherah, who like Ashtoreth, was a type of fertility ... It was erected beside the altar of Baal. (Judg 6:25, 28)"

technomage

October 25th 2005, 08:21 AM

An idea of the extent of Baal worship is found in Ireland. Abundant traces are preserved to this day in place names and in dedications of ancient temples to Baal. The tradition remains at Glendalough, County Wicklow, Ireland, that in ancient times the heathen priest used to ascend the fine round stone tower, now restored, and at sunrise called aloud the name of Baal four times, once from each of the four openings at the summit of the tower which face the cardinal points of the compass. Baal worship is believed to have continued until the time of St. Patrick. There are many remnants of old fire worship and sacrifice of children to Moloch in Scotland. Only a century ago on an estate in Scotland it was the practice of peasants on May Day to gather round a fire and throw their children across from one to another through the fire. Other similar descriptions come from Devonshire and in Ireland at fires called Beltina, or Baal fires. Beltane is the name of the first of May in Scotland which even now commemorates the ancient name of Bel.

The book or website you're quoting from (you fail to provide a reference beyond the name) is incorrect: despite the seeming similarity, Gaelic Beáltaine has no etymological relationship with Canaanite Ba'al. The rest is also quite suspect (especially about Devonshire, since Beáltaine was solely a Gaelic celebration, not Celtic).

So let me see if I understand this correctly:
* You don't understand a difference between ancient Semitic worship and modern Wicca, so you see the two as equivalent.
* You don't understand that the Gaelic word Beáltaine is not descended from the Canaanite Ba'al, so you think the two are related.

And so, because of your ignorance, you feel you can confidently state that Wiccans supposedly practice infanticide and priapic worship? Is that where you're headed with this?

tmancour

October 25th 2005, 09:52 AM

Baal = "lord"

the supreme male divinity of the Phoenician and Canaanitish nations, as Ashtoreth was their supreme female divinity.

Now, in keep with my intended topic, the word Baalim is the Hebrew plural for BAAL, the pagan god of nature and fertility. I quote from the Westminster Dictionary of the Bible article 'BAAL' (emphasis mine)

"... Baal worship apparently had its origin in the belief that every tract of ground owed its productivity to a supernatural being, or baal, that dwelt there. The farmers probably thought that from the Baalim, or fertility gods, of various regions came the increase of crops, fruit and cattle ... The worship of Baal was accompanied with lascivious rites (1 Kings 14:24), the sacrifice of children in the fire by parents (Jer.19:5), and kissing the image (1 Kings 19:18; Hos 13:2). Baal was often associated with the goddess Astoreth (Judg.2:13), and in the vicinity of his altar there was often an Asherah. (Judg.6:30; 1 Kings 16:32-33,R.V.)"

Of the goddess ASTORETH the same dictionary says:

"... She was the goddess of sexual love, maternity and fertility. Prostitution as a religious rite in the service of this goddess under various names is widely attested. The identification of 'Ashtart with Aphrodite is evidence of her sexual character."

You say that like it's a bad thing.

"Ashtaroth (plural of Astoreth). In connection with the plural of Baal, a general designation for the female divinities of the Canaanites ..."

"Asherah refers to a wooden pole or mast which stood at Canaanite places of worship (Exo.34:13); originally it was, perhaps, the trunk of a tree with branches chopped off, and was regarded as the wooden symbol of the goddess Asherah, who like Ashtoreth, was a type of fertility ... It was erected beside the altar of Baal. (Judg 6:25, 28)"

STILL searching for a point to all this . . .

Oh, and while Ba'al and Bel/Belonus/Balor(etc.) may sound the same, the two are unrealated. Ba'al is Semetic, Bel is Celtic-- a sun god, to be precise.

Fire worship is a near universal human religious expression. Hence the "burnt offerings" of the Bible, the use of Agni in Hindu rites as a messanger to the gods, the Roman Vestals, etc. My patroness is a fire goddess.

Fire GOOD.

Arion

Richbee

October 25th 2005, 07:10 PM

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Just ask the women (if you could go back in time) or imagine how these women felt after they were used as Prostitutes to the profit of the Priests. These Temples were like a whore house with an abortion clinic in the back. Of course if the babies were born, they could be burned in the fire, or exposed on a hill in Greece or outside of Rome. Party on. "Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die." (An old pagan saying quoted by Isaiah)

STILL searching for a point to all this . . .

The goddess of old is a whore and what then of the neopagan "goddess"?

Oh, and while Ba'al and Bel/Belonus/Balor(etc.) may sound the same, the two are unrealated. Ba'al is Semetic, Bel is Celtic-- a sun god, to be precise.

Bingo, the Sun god - fire. One in the same and in the end, just the same worship of demons, or the demonic spirits. Satan is behind this according to the Bible. The result is death or evil.

Fire worship is a near universal human religious expression. Hence the "burnt offerings" of the Bible,

Totally untrue and without the same meaning. The fire was never worshipped in the Bible. Fire is just fire.

Would you throw your children in the fire, or through the fire? Or leap over the fire? (This is a hint of the old days.)

Durthorin

October 25th 2005, 08:28 PM

Just ask the women (if you could go back in time) or imagine how these women felt after they were used as Prostitutes to the profit of the Priests. These Temples were like a whore house with an abortion clinic in the back. Of course if the babies were born, they could be burned in the fire, or exposed on a hill in Greece or outside of Rome. Party on. "Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die." (An old pagan saying quoted by Isaiah)

In a society where they were honored and given special rights not given to normal women.. perhaps you should ask the question. If memory serves "Holy or Sacred" women are mentioned in the Code of Hammurabi. They were given special status and rights.. In Greece the hetairae were educated when "respectable" women were not.. free to see plays, attend banquets, or debate philosophy and politics with men. They had vast wealth and some of the more famous you can see today in Greek and Roman art. As for Celtic women Christianity was a net loss for them since they had more rights to person and property under law before Rome and Christianity.

The goddess of old is a whore and what then of the neopagan "goddess"?

The Goddess of old is the same Goddess. An she embraces life and death.. and sexuality is an intimate part of life.. to deny that is to deny in essence a part of your humanity.

Bingo, the Sun god - fire. One in the same and in the end, just the same worship of demons, or the demonic spirits. Satan is behind this according to the Bible. The result is death or evil.

But of what interest is your Bible to a pagan? Its your Bible and proves nothing except your attitude or your faiths towards other faiths.

Would you throw your children in the fire, or through the fire? Or leap over the fire? (This is a hint of the old days.)

I've jumped the Beltaine fires and will no doubt do so again this May.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Richbee

October 25th 2005, 09:44 PM

In a society where they were honored and given special rights not given to normal women..

Oh? Please quote chapter and verse?

....perhaps you should ask the question. If memory serves "Holy or Sacred" women are mentioned in [font=&quot]the Code of Hammurabi.

Poor pagans. Rights?

They were given special status and rights..

Oh whom do you speak? The Highest class - 1%?

In Greece the hetairae were educated when "respectable" women were not.. free to see plays, attend banquets, or debate philosophy and politics with men. They had vast wealth and some of the more famous you can see today in Greek and Roman art.

Again, sources please? High class whores? And, how long did their status last?

As for Celtic women Christianity was a net loss for them since they had more rights to person and property under law before Rome and Christianity.

Really? Please provide sources?

The Goddess of old is the same Goddess.

Same old whore, same old destiny? St. Patrick preached Christianity and millions flocked to freedom in Ireland. The chains of old were destroyed, and that is a fact. Women had a new right, the right to remain chaste. Now this might not seem like fun, but to this day, some Men, and some women prefer to remain virgins. Christianity respects this, as Nuns prefer to serve God. My great-aunt, while receiving three marriage proposals, told me that she loved Jesus more than any man. (Note, as a Prot' her faith allowed her to marry.)

An[d] she embraces life and death.. and sexuality is an intimate part of life.. to deny that is to deny in essence a part of your humanity.

I think the issue her is slave girls and forcing girls or women to be whores is a sin in any book. Are you a pimp, or defending same? We humans have many parts or roles, not all are noble or to be praised.

But of what interest is your Bible to a pagan?

Fool, I just proved the Bible historically and archaeologically correct in these details. The Bible is true in every detail. Now Baal worship was popular, and actually attracked more to a festival than Synagogue, but was this right, or a blessing? Ecstasy and immorally? Does the high last? (See Genesis 11) Do orgies in the long run, help community? Mothers? Fathers? Sons? Daughters? At what age would you sell your daughter to the night?

Do you deny the slut goddess of the Canaanites and Syrians, and the horror? The evil? And, that this is the same through out all time? Flush the fetus for the rite to have Sex?

It's your Bible and proves nothing except your attitude or your faiths towards other faiths.

No, you have no standard or objective truth, as your post illustrates. The Bible declares the Baal or Baalim (plural) , or Baals idolatry, and false gods, and this leads to eternal death. Moreover, this is evil and is harmful to all people in all times, in all places. Not just Syrians, or Canaanites, but Romans, Greeks, Druids or Celtic, or Norse peoples.

Long ago, women revolted against pimps and sexual abusers. Women, declared for Love, and in every case or circumstance to this day, they know better than Men. Most women guard their children with true love.

Saint Paul, as some Christians refer to the preacher Paul, chose an interesting and fascinating back drop to preach the 1 Cor. 13. A whorehouse in Corinth, or the as it was know, the Temple of Aphrodite, or as the Romans would say, Venus. (Containing over 1,000 Prostitutes.)

Love

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(NIV)

Sex is not, in and of itself, Love.

tmancour

October 26th 2005, 12:53 AM

Just ask the women (if you could go back in time) or imagine how these women felt after they were used as Prostitutes to the profit of the Priests.

You are demonstrating your own ignorance. You are imposing your own narrow ideology on a culture and a religious identity you know nothing about. You are trying to impose your

As agricultural cultures developed, what you call "temple prostitution" was not, as you infer, a way for a bunch of priests to make an easy buck in a tawdry and liscentious manner. See, once upon a time people actually thought Sexuality was Sacred. The women, who held the power of life itself within them, were revered as holy creatures. They manifested a power of love known to the Greeks as caritas, that most singular love between a mother and child. But an iteration of caritas was found in sexual love of a woman's youth, and in the love associated with the wisdom and experience of age.

Originally, when a girl went to the temple to learn the Facts of Life, after a period of instruction and initiation she was brought into womanhood in a sacred rite (not the backseat-of-the-family-car method prefered by most Christians). This ritual involved her coupling for the first time with a man who was specially prepared and understood the great responsibility he bore in his role. As is traditional in most religions, the man in question would present a sacrifice or offering or gift to the temple -- not in exchange, but in appreciation of the honor that had been bestowed on him. This is what Christians call "temple prostitution".

A woman was treated as a sacred vessel of life, celebrated for the power of her caritas. A choice between that, or becoming an uneducated slave bound in marriage against her wishes, to be taken at her "husband's" whim, to be reviled as "cursed" and "unclean" every month and her menstruation shunned as a symbol of evil, to be forced to bear baby after baby with the constant fear that they will be killed or sold off because they are the "wrong" gender, knowing full well that every pregnancy brings her face to face with the specter of death? Radical monotheism has perverted the life force.

It was only after the patriarchal Aryan and Semetic sky/storm gods became dominant (Jehovah was one of these, of course) that this ancient, sacred ritual was profaned. As Christianity rose to dominance, for instance -- and especially with Paul's misogyny and Augustine's hatred of women and everything sexual, the once-prevalent power of caritas was turned from a sacred thing into a thing of shame. The Earth Goddesses to whom these temples were dedicated were destroyed, the free expression of female sexuality banned, and abhorant religious ideals like chastity and perpetual virginity were held up along with violent death, as lofty goals to aspire to. Women entered into the most damaging and repressed phase of human history.

These Temples were like a whore house with an abortion clinic in the back.

Your data? Because you are imposing a sick and skewed perspective. A child conceived in a sacred union was blessed. And, indeed, some of these temples provided women with what would now be called reproductive health care. They ensured that a woman would not have to bear her rapist's child, and similar issues. They ensured that a woman could enjoy the fruits of her sexuality without the risk of unwanted pregnancy.

Of course, Jehovah couldn't stand for that. God only has a penis, after all. Mere woman, unclean and servile, could never aspire to anything other than a role as second-class citizen or slave.

Of course if the babies were born, they could be burned in the fire, or exposed on a hill in Greece or outside of Rome.

Unlike the Christian era, when pregnancies were taken care of by whisking away the evil woman who dared to enjoy her own sexuality to a convent, where her baby could be born, baptised, then thrown down a convenient well? Most of these "Temples of Prostitution" you revile were also orphanages. Burning or exposing babies -- that was another Sky/Storm God thing.

Party on. "Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die." (An old pagan saying quoted by Isaiah)

How about "Dare to live"? Indeed, why not enjoy, celebrate, and treat the gifts we were given as the blessings they are? Jehovah's reign has brutally consigned Womanhood to disgrace, shame, bondage, fear, and hopelessness. He has taken the Great Goddess and tried to make Her into something less, because he cannot do what she can. He has tried to replace the sacred gift of caritas with the paltry sustenance of agape, and all of the Western world has been starved of love for the last two thousand years. He has taken the sacred cycle of birth/life/death and tried to impose an improbable promise of "eternal life" if you will but submit to his will. The Goddess does not require your submission. She does not require your obedience. She only requires your love.

The goddess of old is a whore and what then of the neopagan "goddess"?

They are the same Goddess. And, if you mean by "whore" a woman who is confident enough to enjoy the gifts of her own sexuality and share her caritas with whom she chooses, then yes, she is a whore and I love her for it. If a "virtuous woman" is one consigned to live her sexuality on command from her husband and be forever subservient to him, then may my daughter never be "virtuous". I would have her free and happy, rather than enslaved and hopeless. Radical Monotheism has done little but heap misery after misery on mankind. And much of that stems from Jehovah's inferiority complex.

Face it, dude, your entire religion has intimacy issues.

Bingo, the Sun god - fire. One in the same and in the end, just the same worship of demons, or the demonic spirits. Satan is behind this according to the Bible. The result is death or evil.

Actually, Satan in the Bible (the parts authored pre-Babylonian Captivity, wherein the Hebrews were dramatically influenced by Persian dualism which warped their original religion) was more like Jehovah's Prosecuting Attorney. And since Jehovah was originally a sky/storm god, why quibble about which element is more worthy of adoration? Sounds like just another pissing contest to me.

Totally untrue and without the same meaning. The fire was never worshipped in the Bible. Fire is just fire.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Says you. If fire was not worshipped, then why burn offerings? You can petulantly declare that you're just using fire as a vehicle, but your misunderstanding of pagan theology indicates that you don't realize that Pagans view it the same way. We don't "worship" fire. But fire is one of the divine elements, and has a sacred function and sacred representation in our rites. Pagans, new and old, no more "worship" fire than Christians "worship" wine in the Eucharist.

Would you throw your children in the fire, or through the fire? Or leap over the fire? (This is a hint of the old days.)

Actually, I've walked all three of my kids through the flames at Beltaine when they were infants. I expect to do it with them again when they reach adolescence. I've leapt the fires of Beltaine several times; my daughter was conceived on Beltaine, and my youngest son was born on Beltaine.

Would you throw your children in a pond of water? Or through the water? Baptism is just another pagan ritual borrowed by the Radical Monotheists and perverted to their means.

Arion

tmancour

October 26th 2005, 01:37 AM

Oh? Please quote chapter and verse?
Poor pagans. Rights?
Oh whom do you speak? The Highest class - 1%?
Again, sources please? High class whores? And, how long did their status last?
Really? Please provide sources?

Please. There is ample evidence, both documentary and archeological, of the special place that priestesses held in paleopagan society. While mileage as to particular rights varied from culture to culture, being a priestess of the Goddess has always accorded high status, education, and privelege.

Same old whore, same old destiny? St. Patrick preached Christianity and millions flocked to freedom in Ireland. The chains of old were destroyed, and that is a fact.

Patrick helped discourage (but did not end) slavery in Ireland. Granted.

Women had a new right, the right to remain chaste.

Or, more acurately, the right to enforced chastity with little or no say in their life's destiny or their own sexuality. You could be chaste and a nun, or your father could marry you off.

Now this might not seem like fun, but to this day, some Men, and some women prefer to remain virgins.

Chastity is not hereditary. And most remain virgins out of fear and ignorance. If Christianity actually taught that sex wasn't evil, maybe they wouldn't be so freakin' scared of living their lives.

Christianity respects this, as Nuns prefer to serve God.

Christianity in no way has a monopoly on chastity. Ever hear of Vestal Virgins? They served the Goddess. In most cases, Christianity didn't "respect" this -- it demanded it, under pain of death or ostracization.

I think the issue her is slave girls and forcing girls or women to be whores is a sin in any book. Are you a pimp, or defending same? We humans have many parts or roles, not all are noble or to be praised.

And not all women who love freely are "whores". The "temple prostitutes" were not forced or coerced -- it was an honor and a rite of passage. And no where in paganism, modern or ancient, is it deemed appropriate to force or coerce women into such work. To do so would be a perversion of the Life Force.

But Christianity's problem isn't with "whores" in the technical sense. It's with any woman who has sex outside of the narrow bounds imposed by the Church. Christianity doesn't care one bit whether she gets paid or not -- they just don't like the sex. It keeps women from being controlled when they realize that they have the power of caritas. Jehovah can't stand that kind of competition.

Fool,

(*sigh*) ad homenim. Now you're just being insulting.

I just proved the Bible historically and archaeologically correct in these details. The Bible is true in every detail.

LOL. You have done nothing of the sort. Quite the contrary.

Now Baal worship was popular, and actually attracked more to a festival than Synagogue, but was this right, or a blessing? Ecstasy and immorally?

Blessing. Ecstasy is a profound religious experience, found in virtually every religion. And your "immorally" is completely culturally based and inherently biased. Could it be that the stuffy old men in Synagogue saw their weekly offerings falling off during festival time, and developed this grudge because it was bad for business? That would be the logical conclusion.

Does the high last?

It isn't about the "high". It's about the knowlege and wisdom gained during the ecstatic experience. Same thing happens in Christianity, or else all those who experienced the "high" of being saved would live that way perpetually. Yet I see an awful lot of unhappy Christians around.

Do orgies in the long run, help community?

From a technical, biological standpoint, yes, they do. Especially in insular communities, "orgies" provide valuable genetic diversity within a limited gene pool. Sorry.

At what age would you sell your daughter to the night?

Whenever she feels ready and right to do so. Unlike Radical Monothesim, Neo-Paganism does not compel. I hope my daughter develops a good, healthy, sex-positive life, and isn't fettered with guilt and shame issues about her "unclean" body and her descent from Eve, who messed it up for everyone.

Do you deny the slut goddess of the Canaanites and Syrians, and the horror? The evil? And, that this is the same through out all time? Flush the fetus for the rite to have Sex?

What horror? What evil? Define 'slut'. Any woman who has not submitted herself in bondage to a man?

Face it, sex is a universal human right. It is biologically and emotionally necessary for a healthy species. You can rail against birth control all you wish, but the fact is that Woman has always had the knowlege of what herbs to take to keep from getting pregnant. It was only when patriarchal societies tried to impose the utter control of sexuality and women in general that it even became an issue.

No, you have no standard or objective truth, as your post illustrates. The Bible declares the Baal or Baalim (plural) , or Baals idolatry, and false gods, and this leads to eternal death.

But we aren't under the illusion that the Bible is the Sole Objective Truth. Sorry, we think for ourselves. We refuse to be slaves. And nothing leads to eternal death. That whole linear one-shot-is-all-you-got thing is a Abrahamic conceit, without any supporting evidence.

Moreover, this is evil and is harmful to all people in all times, in all places. Not just Syrians, or Canaanites, but Romans, Greeks, Druids or Celtic, or Norse peoples.

How is it evil and harmful to worship the Gods? You have shown me neither. All you have shown me is that you have little or no understanding of any religion save your own. With that kind of attitude, how can I accept you as any kind of credible source?

Long ago, women revolted against pimps and sexual abusers. Women, declared for Love, and in every case or circumstance to this day, they know better than Men. Most women guard their children with true love.

Now you're trying to claim that Christianity "freed" women, when the opposite is true. If you were correct, then there would be no sexual abuse in Christian communities -- but the vast majority of sexual abuse in America happens within Christian communities. You are trying, once again, to steal the power of Caritas for your pipsqueak sky-god under the guise of "protecting the silly little dears 'cause they just don't know any better."

Saint Paul, as some Christians refer to the preacher Paul, chose an interesting and fascinating back drop to preach the 1 Cor. 13. A whorehouse in Corinth, or the as it was know, the Temple of Aphrodite, or as the Romans would say, Venus. (Containing over 1,000 Prostitutes.)

Of course Paul was a confirmed misogynist and hated women and sex and everything having to do with it. Consider the source.

Sex is not, in and of itself, Love.

No. But neither is it automatic damnation and a reason for little girls to hate their bodies. The problem, here, is that you are trying to replace Caritas/Eros with Agape. That's been Christianity's problem all along. The natural compassion of the Mother Goddess is something only a woman can do. In her youth, she does it through her sexuality, transforming the man with her power and raising new life from the power of her love. And that is something that Jehovah and his minions can't do -- so they denigrate sexuality and women, trap them into snares of guilt and shame and deny them the power of Caritas, promising instead to give them, maybe, eternal life, if their lucky, but only after they die, maybe. It's a raw deal, and y'all are just upset because women aren't laying back, thinking of Rngland, and taking it any more.

The Goddess will not be denied.

Arion

Richbee

October 26th 2005, 09:46 AM

Please. There is ample evidence, both documentary and archeological, of the special place that priestesses held in paleopagan society. While mileage as to particular rights varied from culture to culture, being a priestess of the Goddess has always accorded high status, education, and privelege.

Oh? :huh: Sources please. My source refutes this notion, and no stones or bones would tell exactly the rank or status of a wife or woman. Certainly, yes, we do have tombs that honor wives of Kings, but a Priestess? Rank? Power? Baal? Lord? Or, just a hooker for Royality? Or, like Helen of Troy? A sexy kidnap victim?

Patrick helped discourage (but did not end) slavery in Ireland. Granted.

Oh, did any one person end slavery? What rights did women gain in Christianity? What about the young lady named Bridget? As history reveals, she choose a path of a nun, or chaste woman, and through many good deeds and love did claim her fame. (even while tending the flame)

Or, more acurately, the right to enforced chastity with little or no say in their life's destiny or their own sexuality. You could be chaste and a nun, or your father could marry you off.

Sure, imagine that Father's protecting their daughters. Yet, we know for a fact that in Greece, or Rome, a Father could kill their sons and daughters by right, or sell them as sex slaves.

Take your pick.

Chastity is not hereditary. And most remain virgins out of fear and ignorance. If Christianity actually taught that sex wasn't evil, maybe they wouldn't be so freakin' scared of living their lives.

No, you poor ignorant pagan, no and no. Sex is wonderful, have you read the Song of Solomon?

Now, I am not a virgin, but would you like to actually meet one, or talk with a virgin? Is it surprising that many Men and Women choose this "path"?

Look Mom, no STD's? No HIV - AIDS. No Herpes. :yes: :thumb:

In ancient Greece and Rome, the most dangerous experience for a woman, was child birth. Remember, that healthcare was very poor.

Christianity in no way has a monopoly on chastity. Ever hear of Vestal Virgins?

Sure, I have read my Livy, Tacitus, and Seutonius. Virgins, and protected by an army and the penality of Death on any who broke the rules.

Not by choice, correct?

They served the Goddess.

More so Caesar, but do tell us what "goddess" was served.

And not all women who love freely are "whores". The "temple prostitutes" were not forced or coerced -- it was an honor and a rite of passage. And no where in paganism, modern or ancient, is it deemed appropriate to force or coerce women into such work. To do so would be a perversion of the Life Force.

Baloney. So, in Corinth, a seaport, you are suggesting that young girls volunteered to be prostitutes?

.....Ecstasy is a profound religious experience, found in virtually every religion.

Well, the Baal was about ecstasy and immorality. And, death.

Now, as for ecstasy, this can be harmful, as what goes up, must fall or come down. Now, Churches shouldn't let their memebers become in a sense, Manic-Depressive, or bi-polar in a sense.

And your "immorally" is completely culturally based and inherently biased.

Actually, I would assert that these are transcendent truths from God, and absolutes. It is true and good in all cultures, throughout all time. And, of course there are many cases of immorality in the Bible, and less than ideal circumstances or fuzzy logic problems. (e.g. Polygamy)

Now, King David wasn't a stuffy old man? And, he had some fun with Bathsheba. Sex is fun, but ouch! That one hurt. He was hooked on the lust and had her husband murdered. His son Absolom punished his Father for his immoral acts, and it all started with lust. Go figure.

It isn't about the "high". It's about the knowlege and wisdom gained during the ecstatic experience. Same thing happens in Christianity, or else all those who experienced the "high" of being saved would live that way perpetually. Yet I see an awful lot of unhappy Christians around.

Well, now, let's not rule out Mountain high experiences. After all, I enjoy a Rocky Mountain "high" say, at the back bowl of Vail, or Aspen Highlands, or Steamboat.

But, now, say joining an orgy is a "high", but where do you go next? And, oh the crash is painful, or so I have heard. Same for wild affairs, and some say marriage is "boring".

Depression can make people "unhappy", and we should be content in all things, including seasons of suffering. Although, suffering is not a goal, just a reality of life. People die and go away, and we miss them, and yes, we suffer.

The joy of Sex is lost over time, for some not all, and hardly an answer, and dubious for revealing knowledge and wisdom. Now, sure, we learn about ourselves and our lover or lovers.

But, I would submit, I can learn so more about a Lady without sex.

Sex reveals much about our childhood issues, and for some, it becomes distorted or whose. Most Prostitues and Strippers are victims of sexual abuse in childhood.

God children are not "unclean", and Jesus died to set us free and provide a path to freedom and righteousness. But, for some, they can't feel forgiven, or can't forgive themselves. My sister-in-law was abused, and she worked through it, and she feels free. My Bro' has three sons. He enjoys sex in marriage, and helped his wife experience release and forgiveness.

......Now you're trying to claim that Christianity "freed" women, when the opposite is true.

False. More ignorance. You're repeating yourself.

Of course Paul was a confirmed misogynist and hated women and sex and everything having to do with it. Consider the source.

Wrong again. And, this would require a new thread, over under Apologetics.

Paul said that marriage is good. Now, yes, he was an Orthodox Jew, and the gentiles were very different compared with the Jews. Morality was a new concept for the gentiles, but there were God fearing gentiles, but excluded from Jewish Temples. See the first gentile conversion, Cornelius, Acts 10.

bandecoot

October 27th 2005, 07:36 AM

Oh? :huh: Sources please. My source refutes this notion, and no stones or bones would tell exactly the rank or status of a wife or woman. Certainly, yes, we do have tombs that honor wives of Kings, but a Priestess? Rank? Power? Baal? Lord? Or, just a hooker for Royality? Or, like Helen of Troy? A sexy kidnap victim?

If you read the Homeric Hymns and The Orestia you meet Helen a bit later on, fogivern by her husband and happy with kids. If you wish to look out the inscriptional evidence for status of women In Greece Egypt and Rome, I would suggest Lefkowitz and Fant: Women life in Greece and Rome.

In fact the 3 main texts for this course will help you No end:
http://www.stoa.org/diotima/syllabi/skinsyll.shtml

Oh, did any one person end slavery? What rights did women gain in Christianity? What about the young lady named Bridget? As history reveals, she choose a path of a nun, or chaste woman, and through many good deeds and love did claim her fame. (even while tending the flame)[QUOTE=Clutch Cargo]

St Bridget? The one with the shoes? But we will come back to fla,me tending a bit later.

[QUOTE=Clutch Cargo]Sure, imagine that Father's protecting their daughters. Yet, we know for a fact that in Greece, or Rome, a Father could kill their sons and daughters by right, or sell them as sex slaves.

Take your pick.

Yep, and you point is? There was even a name for that, Patria Potesta, So what? Every person with a passing understanding of history knows that. Except it was just as slaves, it was up to the purchaser to do with his property as he wished.

If you are going to have a go at exposure at least use the correct term InFRATicide is meaningless, unless you mean murder of a brother. The correct term, as has been politely pointed out to you by example, is Infanticide.

Exponibantur Is the latin term for exposeure
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

BTW that sig translates "In the old days, brats like you were left exposed on windy hillsides".

There were gradations of prostitutes, Just like today. During the 5th Consulship of Marius he ordered women to give up their jewelery to fund his army. The Ladies of Rome From the lowest to the highest pulled a Clytemnestra on them and set up a protest in the Forum, Led by the Prostitutes IIRC.

AS for the rights of women, your sources are about 60 years out of date. Read Lefkowitz and Fant. You will read of Spartan women being Champion horse breeders for Chariot Racing. You will read about what Alexandrian women talked about in private. The sayings Of Attic and Laconian Women.

You are publicly displaying your ignorance to all. In this at least I am not as sure about the ANE stuff.

No, you poor ignorant pagan, no and no. Sex is wonderful, have you read the Song of Solomon?

Now, I am not a virgin, but would you like to actually meet one, or talk with a virgin? Is it surprising that many Men and Women choose this "path"?

Look Mom, no STD's? No HIV - AIDS. No Herpes. :yes: :thumb:

In ancient Greece and Rome, the most dangerous experience for a woman, was child birth. Remember, that healthcare was very poor.

HIv was first noted about 1950 AD. Not BC. Herpes has been around forever, its not an STD strictly speaking. Unless you count kissing as sex. Oh you mean H Simplex B? I cant catch that. I have type A. The kind that gives you Cold sores.

HPV is one you might be thinking of. But I doubt you were aware of it until now. As for Maternal Mortality rates. They started dropping off in the aerly 1950s. Due to better and more hygenic birthing areas. Prior to then Greece and rome and the US had about the same mortality rates. (caveat, Out side Major Cities that is)

Sure, I have read my Livy, Tacitus, and Seutonius. Virgins, and protected by an army and the penality of Death on any who broke the rules.

Not by choice, correct?
Depends, Some Girls chose to serve others were Offered to the Goddess( although thats not the right term here. The penalty for defiling a Vestal was Flogging and crucuifixion for the man and being buried alive for the Vestal.

More so Caesar, but do tell us what "goddess" was served.

Oh brother, you jest? Surely?

Vesta the Numina of the hearth and family. By extension every family in Rome with a hearth was a temple of Vesta. The house of the Vestals also served as the repository for all wills. The vestals Served Rome, Senatus populorum quorum Romanum, SPQR. You may have even seen those 4 letters in a movie. Not Caesar nor any of the Principiate that followed after Augustus. The Term Caesar more traditionally refers to Gaius Julius rather than the wrong conflation adopted by the NT.

Baloney. So, in Corinth, a seaport, you are suggesting that young girls volunteered to be prostitutes?

Not a lot is known about Corinth, except for what Athenians wrote about them and that was mostly about Corinthian Flute Girls at Symposia. Who were in fact Highly skilled musicans and Prostitutes. About volunteering who knows. Im certain about one thing, you dont know that they did not Volunteer. Not without wrecking your own argument.

Snippage of drivel about imposing Modern ethics on long dead cultures

Paul said that marriage is good. Now, yes, he was an Orthodox Jew, and the gentiles were very different compared with the Jews. Morality was a new concept for the gentiles, but there were God fearing gentiles, but excluded from Jewish Temples. See the first gentile conversion, Cornelius, Acts 10.

He was also a good Roman and imposed the Mos Maiorum on Christianity. Head coverings for women, That sort of thing. That made Christianty, pauls version, palatable to Romans. The first compromise made By Paul, How about that!

technomage

October 27th 2005, 08:52 AM

tmancour

October 27th 2005, 08:11 PM

Bande's right, Clutch--the only thing you're really managing to demonstrate is your own ignorance.

Now, one last time: what does any of the stuff you've brought up have to do with Wicca or Neo-Paganism?

Word. You have yet to demonstrate any real grasp of religious history, outside of your own sect's narrow haigiography. But what does it really have to do with us?

Arion

Richbee

October 29th 2005, 01:43 PM

If you read the Homeric Hymns and The Orestia you meet Helen a bit later on, fogivern by her husband and happy with kids. If you wish to look out the inscriptional evidence for status of women In Greece Egypt and Rome, I would suggest Lefkowitz and Fant: Women life in Greece and Rome.

Happy? What no opining for Paris? And, which children? those sacrificed to the gods?

Thank you and you do discern the contrast between the 1% upper class, or ruling class from the 99% lower class, or slave class? Helen was little more than a sexy slave? So is that really why she ran away to Troy? Really just embellished fiction correct? And, Kind David and Bethsheba? Of course, recall women's rights came centuries later, and together, with this, we can agree, or at least, we can study this topic further.

AS for the rights of women, your sources are about 60 years out of date. Read Lefkowitz and Fant. You will read of Spartan women being Champion horse breeders for Chariot Racing.

So, do you really want me to esteem the Spartan women for tending horses? Married to Homosexual rapists, murdering fascist pig warriors? And, we are right back to the wives of Kings, or Royality, or the upper 1%. In truth, most suffered as sex slaves or worse. Actually Greek men didn't care much for women.

Praise the gods?

(clip)

The most important of the thinkers who made detailed statements about Sparta was the famous Greek philosopher Plato. Although he lived in Athens, which was governed democratically, he was in awe of the fascist system in Sparta, and portrayed Sparta as a model state in his books. Because of Plato's fascist tendencies, Karl Popper, one of the foremost thinkers of the 20th century, describes him as the first source of inspiration for oppressive regimes and an enemy of open society in his famous book The Open Society and Its Enemies. Popper explains how Plato calmly defended the killing of babies in Sparta, and describes him as the first theoretical proponent of 'eugenics:'

To this end, it is important that the master class should feel as one superior master race. 'The race of the guardians must be kept pure', says Plato (in defence of infanticide), when developing the racialist argument that we breed animals with great care while neglecting our own race, an argument which has been repeated ever since. (Infanticide was not an Athenian institution; Plato, seeing that is was practised at Sparta for eugenic reasons, concluded that it must be ancient and therefore good.)

Can you hear the Mothers of "impure" babies murdered in the name of Spartan paganism?

Source: The Pagan Roots of Fascism (www.islamdenouncesantisemitism.com/thepagan.htm)

Richbee

October 29th 2005, 01:51 PM

Bande's right, Clutch--the only thing you're really managing to demonstrate is your own ignorance.

I'm not sure, what statements of fact that you've attested to?

So, by all means elucidate, and illuminate the facts as you know them, and please cite your factual sources. I will admit that Homer can be read as fact on certain points. (As example, I believe that Troy was a real pagan city, with women holding many stages of rank in society. 99% slave.)

Now, one last time: what does any of the stuff you've brought up have to do with Wicca or Neo-Paganism?

As I have posted, "baal" or "lord" (see background below) is really just a demonic strong hold or demon. As I posted, each land or region had a different Baal. (e.g. Baal-Peror) Bel - Baal, and Beelzebub? Baal-Zebub or Satan.

The Bible and again, from a Christian view, I take this as true, talks about "principalities of darkness", and when Daniel is in the Lion's Den, the angel Michael explain's that the local demon or "prince of darkness" has held up his progress.

In summary, neo-pagans worship the "lord and lady" or Baal and godess of fertility. Call it any name you want, just the same "spirits" or famialr spirits. Really just Satan's demons or illussions.

Background:

Dictionary of the Bible article 'BAAL' (emphasis mine)

"... Baal worship apparently had its origin in the belief that every tract of ground owed its productivity to a supernatural being, or baal, [demon] that dwelt there. The farmers probably thought that from the Baalim, or fertility gods, of various regions came the increase of crops, fruit and cattle ... The worship of Baal was accompanied with lascivious rites (1 Kings 14:24), the sacrifice of children in the fire by parents (Jer.19:5), and kissing the image (1 Kings 19:18; Hos 13:2). Baal was often associated with the goddess Astoreth (Judg.2:13), and in the vicinity of his altar there was often an Asherah. (Judg.6:30; 1 Kings 16:32-33,R.V.)"

technomage

October 29th 2005, 03:38 PM

I'm not sure, what statements of fact that you've attested to?

That's all right--you've pretty conclusively established that you not only don't know, you don't want to know. The only thing you want to do is tell them nasty Wiccans just how "evil" they are.

In summary, neo-pagans worship the "lord and lady" or Baal and godess of fertility. Call it any name you want, just the same "spirits" or famialr spirits. Really just Satan's demons or illussions.

That's nice, Clutch. You keep believing that. We worship the Creator of the Universe, just as you do--yet we do so by a Name you do not understand. It's more-or-less normal to fear what you do not understand. But as long as you prefer your beliefs to the reality of the situation, we're certainly not going to waste much time trying to disabuse you of your fantasies.

While you're believing nonsense, we have work to do.

Have a nice day. Oh, and if you ever decide you actually want to learn what Wicca is--rather than the twisted fantasy you believe about it--look us up.

Richbee

October 29th 2005, 05:42 PM

That's all right--you've pretty conclusively established that you not only don't know, you don't want to know. The only thing you want to do is tell them nasty Wiccans just how "evil" they are.

Point in fact, you have yet to back-up any statement of fact or proven any of my points of fact as false. Hmmm, you're not interested in the topic here are you? (You keep drifting in circles.)

.....We worship the Creator of the Universe, just as you do--yet we do so by a Name you do not understand.

Baal? I'm not sure that Baal was the creator? What is the creator's name? How was this communicated to you? Is the creator alos the fertility goddess? Is there a written account you can hotlink me to?

It's more-or-less normal to fear what you do not understand.

Baal? Or, the demons? I have no fear of the demonic spirits or Wiccans, or those who revere the fertility goddess. (Pick one)

But as long as you prefer your beliefs to the reality of the situation, we're certainly not going to waste much time trying to disabuse you of your fantasies.

My thread title is clear. Would you like to correct the Bible and quote from the Book of Baal? (Note that Historical and Archeaological facts have proven the Bible true.)

While you're believing nonsense, we have work to do.

Work on. (Wax off)

Have a nice day. Oh, and if you ever decide you actually want to learn what Wicca is--rather than the twisted fantasy you believe about it--look us up.

Well, you can post anything you can draft, and perhaps you can start with an objective source defining [redefining] a, or the fertility goddess? Lord and lady?

Richbee

October 29th 2005, 07:08 PM

Footnote:

My research on Wiccan confirms my assertions, that a "god" or "goddess" is regional in nature, or dependent on the locale. (Celtic, Semitic, Germanic, Norse)

http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/faq.htm

Just like the thread topic here, Baal.

technomage

October 29th 2005, 07:14 PM

tmancour

October 29th 2005, 09:41 PM

Well, you can post anything you can draft, and perhaps you can start with an objective source defining [redefining] a, or the fertility goddess? Lord and lady?

Dude. We don't need a quote. The Lord and Lady are manifest. We need not define them -- they define us. You can call them demons all you want, but if the best source you can come up with is a 5000 year old mistranslated moldy old book . . . well, good for you. I prefer my religion straight, without all the watering down.

Read my metaphorical lips:

Neo-Paganism is: a non-text-based (that means we don't have a "sacred" text, and what's more, when you quote your own to us to try to "prove" your point, you actually lessen the impact of any arguement you may want to make) experiential (that means that our knowlege of the Divine is informed primarily through our own individual experiences, augmented by the collected lore and wisdom of others) earth-based (which means we venerate and honor the sanctity of all living things, the cycles of life, the sacred nature of death-in-the-service-of-life, the planet upon which we evolved, and the sattelite which stirred the primordial cauldron of life to send the sea onto the shore) mystery religion (that means that the essential elements of our religious belief are unsharable through written or oral means and must be experienced through an artificially created crisis experience known as ritual) which venerates the transcendent (that means "beyond the self") and imminent (that means "within the self") Divine in multiple forms (including male and female) with strong personal moral and ethical code and an emphasis on Wisdom (that means "the art and science of doing the right thing at the right time") and personal responsibility for mundane and spiritual matters (that means we shouldn't -- and try not to -- blame our frailties on others, be they divine or mortal).

If you get your jollies sticking out your tongue at us because Jehovah had a snit five thousand years ago, got drunk one night, developed delusions of grandeur, and insisted that he was the only pipsqueak Semetic tribal deity with a "Creator of the Universe" franchise and that everybody else was a bad guy, then it's a free country. Is it a productive act? Not really. Is it intellectually stimulating? It's becoming less so by the moment. You just really aren't telling us anything new when you say that the Lord and the Lady grow from the same Godhead as Ba'al and Asherah.

All Gods are One God. All Goddesses are One Goddess.

Arion

Richbee

October 29th 2005, 09:53 PM

Asherah - female side of Baal? Life = fertility? Goddess? Really one and the same.

In Canaan, at the head of the Baals, was the god El. His wife was Asherah, a goddess who is also mentioned in the Bible. El married his three sisters, one of whom was Astarte, and who was referred to as Ashtaroth in the OT. (Judges 10:6)

Like the Druid/Celtic triple Goddess?

Oh schucks, just make it all up as you go along.

Durthorin

October 30th 2005, 04:38 AM

Like the Druid/Celtic triple Goddess?

Oh schucks, just make it all up as you go along.

Ancient Celtic women served as both warriors and rulers. Girls as well as boys could be trained to fight with swords and other weapons. One of the most prominent training schools in Gaelic mythology was run by Scathach (pronounced “sca-hah” or “skya”), a woman warrior from what is now Scotland. She trained the greatest hero of Irish legend, Cúchulainn (pronounced “koo-hull-in” or “koo-khull-in”, with the “KH” as
in Scottish loch). This most famous of her pupils went on to fight entire armies alone and perform other great deeds. Scathach’s female rival, Aife (or Aoife), was considered one of the fiercest warriors alive. Both of these women led armies. The practice of bearing arms was relatively common among women. Women were recorded as having taken part in the final battle against Caius Suetonius Paulinus when he advanced upon the druid stronghold on the island of Mona (now Anglesey) in present-day Wales.

Women could become druids, including
priestesses, poets, and healers. They could conduct business without the consent or involvement of their husbands. They could serve as diplomats; in fact, a woman acted as ambassador in establishing the treaty between the Carthaginian general Hannibal and the Celtic ruler Volcae during a march against Rome. Plutarch wrote in the second century that there was a long-standing tradition among the Celts of women acting as mediators or
judges in political and military disputes. They were also known to have played a similar mediating role in their own tribal assemblies.

Ellis, P. B. (1994). The druids. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
James, D. (Ed.). (1996). Celtic connections: the ancient Celts, their tradition and living legacy. London:
Blandford Press.
James, S. (1993). The world of the Celts. London: Thames and Hudson.
King, J. (1998). Kingdoms of the Celts: a history and guide. London: Blandford Press.
Markale, J. (1986). Women of the Celts. (A. Mygind, C. Hauch, & P. Henry, Trans.). Rochester, Vermont:
Inner Traditions International, Ltd. (Original work published 1972).
Matthews, J. (1988). Boadicea: warrior queen of the Celts. Dorset: Firebird Books.
Walkley, V. (1997). Celtic daily life. London: Robinson Publishing.
Wilde, L. W. (1997). Celtic women in legend, myth and history. New York: Sterling
Publishing Co., Inc.

Basically, Celtic women prior to romanization and Christianity, enjoyed a life that gave them far more rights, priveldges and freedoms that most women of the ancient world. Women could not be married against their will. They could make contracts without permission of their husbands, own property and practice any trade.

As to the Celtic triple Goddesses Brighid, Danu and the Morrigan.. They are in Wiccan thought maid, mother and crone.. birth to death.

Brigit - Ireland; goddess of agriculture, fire, healing, inspiration, learning divination, occult knowledge, poetry, prophecy, smithcraft. Her Gaelic name of Breo-saighead means "fiery arrow" or "fiery power". Celts often referred to her as being three in one - the Triple Brigits or the Three Mothers. Badb - (Bibe) Ireland; goddess of enlightenment, inspiration, life, wisdom. Sister of Macha, the Morrigan, and Anu, the name of this goddess means "boiling," "battle raven," and "scald-crow". Known as Cath Bodva in Gaul. A Mother Goddess and Triple Goddess,

Morrigan - Ireland, Wales, Britain; a shapeshifting war goddess of lust, magic, prophecy, revenge, war. Known as Great Queen, Supreme War Goddess, Queen of Phantoms, and Specter Queen, she kept company with Fea (hateful), Badb (fury), and Macha (battle)

Out of curosity? Which Triple Goddess?

bandecoot

October 30th 2005, 07:04 AM

Happy? What no opining for Paris? And, which children? those sacrificed to the gods?

That was the child of Agamemnon Iphegina that was sacrificed for a favourable wind. He was punished for that act however, when he returned home after the Trojan War his wife killed him with an ax and exiled his son Orestes, who on reaching majority killed his mother in revenge for his father and was pursued by the Eumenides for Marricide, Athens took him in and allowed for Athena to be his advocate against the Eumenides( also known as the Furies)Have we got the story clear yet? Helen was the wife of Menelaos the brother of Agamemnon.

Thank you and you do discern the contrast between the 1% upper class, or ruling class from the 99% lower class, or slave class? Helen was little more than a sexy slave? So is that really why she ran away to Troy? Really just embellished fiction correct? And, Kind David and Bethsheba? Of course, recall women's rights came centuries later, and together, with this, we can agree, or at least, we can study this topic further.

If you follow the tale from beginning to end it reads a lot like this:
Venus aroused Helen towards Paris.
Helen went back to the TRoad with paris willingly based on that divine mischief.
Priam and Hector are aghast at the idiocy of Paris' actions and offer Menelaos his wife back untouched. Menelaos kills the messenger in a fit of rage brought on by Deimos the son of Ares.

Then you get the Ilias.

As for the role of women in the ancient world I have listed 3 books that will comprehensivly explain that topic better than I can in the limited space and time available to me on Tweb. However, to put it Briefly. The role of women varied from place to place in the ancient world. If to were talking about Celtic Britain and france women owned land and went to war with their men as did the german women. Women of the Gaelic speaking people were very similar in rights and obligations.

An Upper class Greek woman was most likely sequestered and owned nothing but her dowry. She was allowed little contact with men at all. To the extent that she did not even eat with her husband at social gatherings.

A lower class Greek woman most like;ly had a business and was a guild member. Her business would have been in Market Gardening, Weaving and dying cloth or tending sheep and goats. Or at least employing slaves or helots to do the actual work.

A truly poor Athenian woman may have turned to prostitution if unmarried or helped her husband at his work if married.

Roman women are even better attested to as the Roman were fastidious about writing every detail of every transaction down in stultifyingly dull detail.

They had two forms of Marriage one which resembles the Christian ideal, that one is called Confarriato. A confering of rights. The woman passed from her fathers hand "manus" to her husbands, and divorce was difficult in the extreme. The woman held nothing in her own right whatsoever.

The other form was Diffariato which meant that the woman could hold property own business and make money, she could also divorce her husband.

There was a third form which is peculiar to Rome In Sui Manus. If a woman was widowed and had no father, brothers or sons, she was free to hold her own nproperty without recourse to anyone but herself.

You mentioned the Vestal Virgins previously, they too were free to marry after their term serving Vesta was up, usually at about age 30. Yes thats right they were virgins not prostitutes, and they served a limited term like every other office in Rome. They were granted In sui manus status automatically due to their service to Rome.

Rich Roman women were free to do most things, but most did not. poorer women owned businesses much like greek women, this is attested to by the House of the Weavers in Pompeii and the House of the fauns as well.

All of this is covered in those 3 books I linked you to.

So, do you really want me to esteem the Spartan women for tending horses? Married to Homosexual rapists, murdering fascist pig warriors? And, we are right back to the wives of Kings, or Royality, or the upper 1%. In truth, most suffered as sex slaves or worse. Actually Greek men didn't care much for women.

Praise the gods?

I did not say she tended horses, I said she was a horse breeder. Big difference there. Think Rich enough to own enough land to have a stable of race horses. Then go and look at a relief map of the area Sparta used to sit on. Flat land suitable for horses was at a premium, so she was not just rich but filthy rich. So much for being down trodden?

AS for your portrayal of Lacedomonians its as outdated as your sources for women. All Greeks were pederasts, thats just a fact. It was no more shameful to them than having sex with their wives. If you wish to call names how would you compare them with ancient Hebrews who did much the same things, apart from molesting little boys, but the fact that there was a law forbidding such meant that it had happened in the past. Nobody makes a law based on what people MIGHT do. In fact having just reread the relevant section of the Torah it makes no such statement, it refers to having sex with an adult man. It forbids sex between equals of the same gender, in the same manner that the Greeks did. The Greeks were not Homosexuals they were pederasts. There is a difference there you know. You may want to look up David Halperin who has done a lot of work on just that area. You may need a University library terminal to read his paper on the History of Sexuality.

The woman I mentioned from Land F was not royal at all BTW.

(clip)

The most important of the thinkers who made detailed statements about Sparta was the famous Greek philosopher Plato. Although he lived in Athens, which was governed democratically, he was in awe of the fascist system in Sparta, and portrayed Sparta as a model state in his books. Because of Plato's fascist tendencies, Karl Popper, one of the foremost thinkers of the 20th century, describes him as the first source of inspiration for oppressive regimes and an enemy of open society in his famous book The Open Society and Its Enemies. Popper explains how Plato calmly defended the killing of babies in Sparta, and describes him as the first theoretical proponent of 'eugenics:'

To this end, it is important that the master class should feel as one superior master race. 'The race of the guardians must be kept pure', says Plato (in defence of infanticide), when developing the racialist argument that we breed animals with great care while neglecting our own race, an argument which has been repeated ever since. (Infanticide was not an Athenian institution; Plato, seeing that is was practised at Sparta for eugenic reasons, concluded that it must be ancient and therefore good.)

Can you hear the Mothers of "impure" babies murdered in the name of Spartan paganism?

Source: The Pagan Roots of Fascism (www.islamdenouncesantisemitism.com/thepagan.htm)

It may surprise you to know that I am familiar with Poppers work, I agree with most of it. Plato was both brilliant and revolting at the same time. Thus it shoud come as no surprise to you that Augustine and many of the Early Church fathers relied on Plato's works for their apologetics. Even Paul of Tarsus quoted Plato. Would you consider your own Church to be based on Facism?

To be strictly accurate Fascism was an Italian form of political excess and even the name stems from Rome. The Fasces were the symbols of the authority of a magistrate with Imperium to beat or execute an offender and were simply a bundle of rods inside the Pomerium of Rome and the same with an ax inserted outside of same. Nothing to do with Sparta at all.

Popper was of Course refering to National Socialism( Nazi) which was German in origin, again nothing to do with Sparta, except in a very abstract form, and its Eugenics program had its start in the US of all places in the late teens to early 30's. Look up Madison Grant, Francis Galton and the Rockefeller and Carnegie foundations. I am not linking to them as I want YOU to do the research, which so far you have woefully failed to do.

But I must echo what the Wiccans here have said. What on earth has an obscure ANE goddess to do with any of this? You seem to have focused on one Goddess and forgotten that there were literally thousands of Gods and Goddesses in the Ancient world.

Why not accuse them of worshipping Hel the daughter of Loki and mistress of the Norse punisment afterlife? That would at least be nearer to The Uk and Mainland Europe. I trust that the names of your faiths punishment place and the name of a Norse goddess in charge of Punishment is not lost on you.

tmancour

October 30th 2005, 08:42 AM

I am not linking to them as I want YOU to do the research, which so far you have woefully failed to do.

But I must echo what the Wiccans here have said. What on earth has an obscure ANE goddess to do with any of this? You seem to have focused on one Goddess and forgotten that there were literally thousands of Gods and Goddesses in the Ancient world.

Why not accuse them of worshipping Hel the daughter of Loki and mistress of the Norse punisment afterlife? That would at least be nearer to The Uk and Mainland Europe. I trust that the names of your faiths punishment place and the name of a Norse goddess in charge of Punishment is not lost on you.

SCOLD! :lmbo:

Richbee

October 30th 2005, 09:38 AM

Thank you for the Triple Goddess post, and I will follow-up later. Note here, in 2 Kings, the reference to sun and moon. (Drawing down the moon?)

2 Kings 23:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=23&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)

He did away with the pagan priests appointed by the kings of Judah to burn incense on the high places of the towns of Judah and on those around Jerusalem—those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun and moon, to the constellations and to all the starry hosts.

And here is one more historical reference:

Hosea 9:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=35&chapter=9&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)

"When I found Israel, it was like finding grapes in the desert; when I saw your fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree. But when they came to Baal Peor, they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol and became as vile as the thing they loved.

Peace, and may the the Sun shine upon you, by the grace of God's Son!

Durthorin

October 30th 2005, 11:40 AM

Richbee

October 30th 2005, 02:16 PM

Clutch as a comment and aquestion. What interest do you think that your holy book holds for a Pagan? I find in general it is neither reliable nor authorative which is why I am Pagan. So basically quoting a Bible verse is the same as burping in public. "Politly ignored"

Here is an exercise, find a culture where the Sun and Moon were not worshiped or revered at one time or another. Good Luck.

Thank you and excellent point, there have been many cults of Sun worship, now the Moon, I don't know of this being exclusive to one cult.

The Stars? Pick one or a group?

Now, back to the Baal the little god of old Biblical times:

Judges 10:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=7&chapter=10&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)

[ Jephthah ] Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD. They served the Baals and the Ashtoreths, and the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the Ammonites and the gods of the Philistines. And because the Israelites forsook the LORD and no longer served him.

So many gods, and oh so true!

O.K., let me bow down to my little Foot-Baal team, and I be back later. I know, I know, Pigskins ain't Kosher.

James Peter

October 30th 2005, 03:11 PM

Ok, I seem to have lost track of what point Clutch is trying to make in this thread. Does anyone have any idea what it is?

Richbee

October 30th 2005, 03:28 PM

Ok, I seem to have lost track of what point Clutch is trying to make in this thread. Does anyone have any idea what it is?

Are you obtuse? Read my O.P. again.

Baal = Lord (pimp)

Ashtoreths or Asherah = Lady (whore)

The Bible is true down to the last detail. Neo-paganism is Mod' recycling of the old spiritual oppression. Wicca is both non-textual and non-historical.

Next, consider the "sacred grove" described in the Bible.

Is there anything new under the Sun?

technomage

October 30th 2005, 03:52 PM

Is there anything new under the Sun?

No--including false claims by so-called "knowledgeable Christians."

Since you've produced nothing of substance concerning Wicca--the actual practice of Wicca, not your perverse sexual fantasies--I'm going to ask the mods to move this thread to CompRel.

Durthorin

October 30th 2005, 04:11 PM

No--including false claims by so-called "knowledgeable Christians."

Since you've produced nothing of substance concerning Wicca--the actual practice of Wicca, not your perverse sexual fantasies--I'm going to ask the mods to move this thread to CompRel.

Having read Clutch's "point" I'm prone to agree with you.. As a freind tends to say..

May he be blessed somewhere else.

Dur

tmancour

October 30th 2005, 04:46 PM

Having read Clutch's "point" I'm prone to agree with you.. As a freind tends to say..

May he be blessed somewhere else.

Dur

What Dur said. At least Lee is entertaining. And polite.

Whore and Pimp? You'd have to have a pretty dirty mind to look at it that way.

No wonder churches in Europe are closing because of a lack of business.

Arion

Sparko

October 30th 2005, 04:51 PM

Richbee

October 30th 2005, 09:27 PM

I moved this thread to General Theistics because.

1. It really wasn't about NEO paganism but regular paganism
2. Bandecoot has posted in this thread and so I decided not to move it to comp religions since it is theist only.

so, this is the best place for it.... continue on...

Thank you for killing my thread. :thumb:

General Theistics is patsies.

Based on my O.P. and many other posts, IMO it is quite clear who the Lord and Lady is of Wicca and Neo-paganism.

.

Richbee

October 30th 2005, 09:29 PM

What Dur said. At least Lee is entertaining. And polite.

Whore and Pimp? You'd have to have a pretty dirty mind to look at it that way.

No wonder churches in Europe are closing because of a lack of business.

Arion

If a "temple" is run as a whore house, what then is the Baal and Asheroth?

technomage

October 30th 2005, 09:36 PM

Thank you for killing my thread. :thumb:

General Theistics is patsies.

I actually suggested CompReligion or Unorthodox. :shrug: The Moderators move in mysterious ways....

Based on my O.P. and many other posts, IMO it is quite clear who the Lord and Lady is of Wicca and Neo-paganism.

But you were persuaded of that before you even looked at any "evidence." And you have utterly no concern about "evidence" to the contrary. So as far as I'm concerned, you and your thread may both fly a kite.

Bye! :violin:

Richbee

October 30th 2005, 10:13 PM

I actually suggested CompReligion or Unorthodox. :shrug: The Moderators move in mysterious ways....

Wiccan magic is my bet. :lolo:

But you were persuaded of that before you even looked at any "evidence." And you have utterly no concern about "evidence" to the contrary. So as far as I'm concerned, you and your thread may both fly a kite.

Bye! :violin:

Actually, I posted incorrectly.

Paganism really is recyled and reproduced as Neo-paganism.

Istar and Asherah and really one in the same, and some old school wiccans worship same.

Ha!

Whadda you know?

technomage

October 30th 2005, 10:22 PM

Istar and Asherah and really one in the same, and some old school wiccans worship same.

Yet your suggestion was that, because Asherah worship in Canaan involved temple prostitution and child sacrifice, that WIcca does as well. And that assertion, bucky-boy, is what establishes your cluelessness about Wicca.

Richbee

November 1st 2005, 12:08 PM

Yet your suggestion was that, because Asherah worship in Canaan involved temple prostitution and child sacrifice, that WIcca does as well. And that assertion, bucky-boy, is what establishes your cluelessness about Wicca.

I never once suggested that Wicca practices, condones or involves even the suggestion of such a thing.

What I proved, is that the "spirit" or demonic powers of darkness are the same.

Same old goddess of fertility or "mother" - Lady, whatever.

Just keep re-writing the script.

How can stones give us the facts?

Quote:

Archaeological evidence: inscriptions of Celtic goddesses on statues and other artifacts give us the names for the goddesses Brigindo, Brigantia, and Bricta. The symbols and other elements used to depict each goddess tell us about what concerns she was thought to govern. The types of sites where the statues and inscriptions are found also tell us about how the goddesses were venerated by the various Celtic groups.

River names: the names of rivers tell us that these goddesses were probably associated with rivers.

Place names: the names of towns and settlements may tell us where goddesses were worshipped. However, since the element bríg can simply denote a high or fortified place, it would be unwise to assume that each place name derives from a goddess.

http://www.applewarrior.com/celticwell/ejournal/imbolc/brighid.htm

Richbee

November 9th 2005, 05:46 PM

:bump:

This topic is comin' back in style soon. (Over under Wicca we have been tracing back the goddess religions brings us full circle.)

wayne searfoss

November 14th 2005, 11:34 PM

Theologians are Baal worshipers
We are speaking about the most grievous sin of breaking the first commandment.
Baal - means lord, possessor, husband. Worshipers of Baal take their great Lord who is of the principalities, powers, and rulers of the darkness of this world, of spiritual wickedness in high places as spoken of in Ephesians 6:12 – “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, and against rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” They are drinking from the golden cup full of abominations and filthiness of spiritual fornication of Rev. 17.

Theology in not a Bible term. It originates as a category in the definition of philosophy as arranged by a pagan who lived hundreds of years before Christ named Aristotle.

Theology is the arduous mental reconciliation of the Bible with pagan philosophy. Using the half truth of the first mover concept of Aristotle, the Living God of Abraham and Jesus and the Bible is replaced by a god who is far away, outside of time. Not withstanding the solemn admonition of Jesus "call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” Their spiritual fornication begins with the so called early church “fathers”. Origen finally wrote it down in the second century in which he called anyone who believed the Bible literally a heretic as well as any one who was an anthropomorphite. This long term means that if you believe that God has a body and if you believe the Bible that God in his body talked with Adam and Eve Origen says you are a heretic. This spiritual fornication of joining paganism to christianity was foundational in the writings of these so called early church fathers.

Upon this pagan concept the definition of the Living God of Abraham and the Bible is changed to the far off lord known as Baal in the Old Testament. All who believe these things are the same false priests of Baal as in the days of Elijah. They are the personal manifestation of spiritual wickedness in high places. If you believe in a pagan god you are a pagan.
John chapter one tells us that “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men… was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.” The Living God is striving with every man in the world.
Placing God out of time there is added the pagan concept that God foreknows all things from all eternity and everything is predetermined from the beginning of creation. Meticulous misinterpretations are made of the Bible to try to give credence to this pagan concept, ignoring the active interaction of the eternal Spirit of God with every soul on earth. But ignoring the plain statement of God that he is in time when he declares to Abraham “now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son” God declares that did not foreknow but that he KNEW from that moment in time. The Bible declares in Heb 4 God said, “I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.” God is in time. Believing the contrary concept makes you a worshiper of the great Lord (Baal).
Implicit in the pagan concept is that God is responsible for all things. Theologians by their premise are accusers of God making him ultimately responsible for all who are lost, declaring “Grace plus nothing”. This spiritual fornication is the most horrible for they are defaming God in the most intimate area of accusing him by premeditated intention of causing all of the tragedy and being responsible for all of the works of Satan.
The mighty presence of the God of all Spirits striving with every heart convincing of sin judgment and righteousness is ignored. The theologian instead substitutes his supposed superiority of understanding declaring that just trusting his theory of redemption with all your power of belief will place you in a position where God must make you part of his kingdom. In this defiant attitude of holding God to his covenant, theologians were identified by Jesus “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Their faith has a belligerence toward God
Theologians are intoxicated with the wine of superiority which was called by Jesus the leaven of the pharasees. Their pagan root leads them to suppose they are Philosopher Kings as described by Plato in his Republic. They wear the toga and pattern their buildings after the Parthenon. Theologians exhibit their intellectual gifts disdaining and ignoring the gifts in every believer. They take the name of pastor but have no care for discovering and developing those over whom they the suppose they are placed as spiritual leaders.

http://themartyrcall.blogspot.com/

Edward Moore author of the following
Email: emoore@theandros.com
St. Elias School of Orthodox Theology

A Revelation of the Everlasting Gospel-Message Jane Lead - 1697.htm

I. Anthropomorphites: They take literally the anthropomorphism that the Bible attributes to God and to the soul and consequently picture God as corporeal: against these Origen clearly affirms the absolute incorporeality of the three Persons and of the soul.
Against the Anthropomorphites Origen explains that God is Spirit, and He alone is without body.
But the substance of the Trinity, which is the beginning and cause of all things, ‘of which are all things and through which are all things and in which are all things’, must not be believed either to be a body or to exist in a body, but to be wholly incorporeal.

Richbee

November 15th 2005, 09:52 PM

The old whore of Babylon is back, back on her BACK. :shrug:

:nsm:

Richbee

November 28th 2005, 08:51 PM

Theologians are Baal worshipers
We are speaking about the most grievous sin of breaking the first commandment.

Baal - means lord, possessor, husband. Worshipers of Baal take their great Lord who is of the principalities, powers, and rulers of the darkness of this world, of spiritual wickedness in high places as spoken of in Ephesians 6:12 – “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, and against rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” They are drinking from the golden cup full of abominations and filthiness of spiritual fornication of Rev. 17.

Theology in not a Bible term. It originates as a category in the definition of philosophy as arranged by a pagan who lived hundreds of years before Christ named Aristotle.

Theology is the arduous mental reconciliation of the Bible with pagan philosophy. Using the half truth of the first mover concept of Aristotle, the Living God of Abraham and Jesus and the Bible is replaced by a god who is far away, outside of time. Not withstanding the solemn admonition of Jesus "call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” Their spiritual fornication begins with the so called early church “fathers”. Origen finally wrote it down in the second century in which he called anyone who believed the Bible literally a heretic as well as any one who was an anthropomorphite. This long term means that if you believe that God has a body and if you believe the Bible that God in his body talked with Adam and Eve Origen says you are a heretic. This spiritual fornication of joining paganism to christianity was foundational in the writings of these so called early church fathers.

Upon this pagan concept the definition of the Living God of Abraham and the Bible is changed to the far off lord known as Baal in the Old Testament. All who believe these things are the same false priests of Baal as in the days of Elijah. They are the personal manifestation of spiritual wickedness in high places. If you believe in a pagan god you are a pagan.

John chapter one tells us that “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men… was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.” The Living God is striving with every man in the world.

Placing God out of time there is added the pagan concept that God foreknows all things from all eternity and everything is predetermined from the beginning of creation. Meticulous misinterpretations are made of the Bible to try to give credence to this pagan concept, ignoring the active interaction of the eternal Spirit of God with every soul on earth. But ignoring the plain statement of God that he is in time when he declares to Abraham “now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son” God declares that did not foreknow but that he KNEW from that moment in time. The Bible declares in Heb 4 God said, “I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.” God is in time. Believing the contrary concept makes you a worshiper of the great Lord (Baal).

Implicit in the pagan concept is that God is responsible for all things. Theologians by their premise are accusers of God making him ultimately responsible for all who are lost, declaring “Grace plus nothing”. This spiritual fornication is the most horrible for they are defaming God in the most intimate area of accusing him by premeditated intention of causing all of the tragedy and being responsible for all of the works of Satan.

The mighty presence of the God of all Spirits striving with every heart convincing of sin judgment and righteousness is ignored. The theologian instead substitutes his supposed superiority of understanding declaring that just trusting his theory of redemption with all your power of belief will place you in a position where God must make you part of his kingdom. In this defiant attitude of holding God to his covenant, theologians were identified by Jesus “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Their faith has a belligerence toward God

Theologians are intoxicated with the wine of superiority which was called by Jesus the leaven of the pharasees. Their pagan root leads them to suppose they are Philosopher Kings as described by Plato in his Republic. They wear the toga and pattern their buildings after the Parthenon. Theologians exhibit their intellectual gifts disdaining and ignoring the gifts in every believer. They take the name of pastor but have no care for discovering and developing those over whom they the suppose they are placed as spiritual leaders.

http://themartyrcall.blogspot.com/

I would like you contact you Wayne, and I will try to follow your blog.