The Attraction to Married Men

[Rubia Warren]

What is the attraction that some women have to married men? I have known quite a few women who are just ga-ga over married men, or men in serious relationships. MOst of them purposely got pregnant by him (or them), and got dumped by the commited guys. Some of the women I know even have gone right back out looking for another married guy!
I have to say that type of attraction is something I do not understand. That doesn't make me better or superior, or something-- cuz believe me, I have had some attractions to certain men that others could not understand what the big deal was. But married guys, along with men who have a history of physically abusing women, have never really gotten my attention because I've always known that if they would do that to their wives or other women, they will do that to me, and it's unappealing. (However, if you put me in a room with 100 men and blindfold me, I will immediately pick out and latch onto the drunk or the drug addict, and will swear that he will be different. Go figure. :shifty: So see? I really am not on a high horse by starting this thread).

But what is it about men in commitments that appeal to certain women? I am not sure there is a one-size-fits-all reason for all women who are attracted to men like that, but I do have one friend who was in a relationship with one, and this friend of mine always picks men who deep down inside she knows she cannot have, no matter how hard she tries. After having his child and being dropped by him like a bad habit, she finally learned to avoid married men. But she still has a pattern of picking men she cannot have-- a man in prison for the next 32 years, a man who lives 1000 miles away, etc. In fact, when she finally does get a man to finally want to be with her, she dumps him. Every time she tells me about a new guy the first thing that comes outta my mouth is, "It'll never last." When she asks why and states, "You haven't even met the guy", I reply, "Because you picked him, and you always pick men you know you cannot have."
She has never proven me wrong yet. (Just so you know, she predicts the outcomes of what I am proposing to do with the same type of accuracy. :blush)
But even more than that, there are women who actually seek out men in relationships time and time again. Many times they will not take "no" for an answer, even if the guy initially tries to "do the right thing". :huh:
I was watching spanish TV yesterday, and 2 famous singers were being interviewed, and they claimed, "Married men taste better." I didn't get a chance to watch the rest to see their explanation as to why, but I thought that was a pretty bold statement by itself.
Any theories?

[themuzicman]

I saw a study once that showed that there was a certain body ratio that men are generally attracted to (waist:hip of 7:10), but that no such standard existed among women.

However, if women were shown two similar men, one alone and the other holding a baby, that they guy holding the bably was preferred FAR MORE than the guy without. (Ask single guys looking for women, babies and pets are a great aid.)

So, I think the attraction is the 'C' word, COMMITTMENT. Married guys have already made a committment and appear to be living in it (although, once the guy cheats, you'd think that would deter women, but many are just blind to that part.)

The odd part is that these women want that guy to BREAK committment to their current wives to make a committment with THEM.

Go figure.

Michael

[Teallaura]

There's also the security of having a great excuse when he dumps you - it's not you he doesn't love, it's that he's married. It's a kind of failsafe to protect her ego - but it's a warped one because failure is virtually guaranteed. Still it takes a real risk for the highly insecure out of the equation - he can't be leaving because she isn't worth having; it has to be because he's married. It's a really twisted security blanket.

Also, if he seriously entertains a relationship with her, he's got a double attraction; not only is he married (and shows promise of commitment) but he's a bad boy, too! A self-destructive girls two greatest fantasies roled into one - married pond scum. Having relationships that are not only self-destructive but viciously cruel as well (I don't care how bad a wife she is, she doesn't deserve him commiting adultery, got that? :brood:) is a sure sign of a highly insecure, dependent personality. In a warped sense, they deserve each other - both Miss Homewrecker and Mr. Cheater have something wrong with their psyches, and morals. Of course, odds on favorite is all they'll do is destroy one another as well.



(Myself, I'm leery of dating divorcees - he left her, why wouldn't he leave me? And you can forget any guy who's cheated on a wife/fiancee' - I'd rather stay single than deal with that trash. And yes, I'd feel the same in reverse were I a man.)

[Mujibur]

People are often attracted to what they cannot have. The fun for them is in trying to acquire it, against the odds. Like people being more attracted to someone when they play hard to get, or show no interest in them, compared to someone who is just following them around and is clearly attracted to them and does not make any effort to hide it.

[spiritmech]

Yeah I hear about this all the time. Part envy, part evolution. All parts calculation.

The most famous recent episode of this is Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. She willfully went after Brad knowing he was married. He willfully didn't turn her down. It really is shameful.

Who said that women weren't competitive? :grin:
sm

[Rahab]

Bonjour la Rubia,


I feel for your friend who seems to seek destructive relationships but I am proud of you remaining close to her and offering your affection to her. It is good of you to not be judgemental and attempt to understand what is going on thru her mind. You definitly will be more helpful to her than by placing yourself above and beyong reproach as you express your concerns to her.

IMO the upbringing of such women who fall for the "impossible relationship" pattern have a lot to do with the limitations and restrictions they impose on themselves by being attracted to married men. Often, their relationship with their father may have caused that pattern. It would be interesting for you to examine what type of family background your friend came from.

I agree with part of what Musikman wrote. The married man may symbolize stability and commitment. Contrasting of course with the reality that those qualities will go down hill the moment he breaks them.

Is there a subconscious need to seek only impossible relationships? Yes, probably. Why? Several possible reasons :
- lack of self confidence that she is able to retain a man's love and devotion or even trigger them. By choosing mates who cannot demonstrate those traits to her, she avoids dealing with the root of her issues.
- low self esteem or worth : origine of the first reason. A sense of "doom" as if she is not allowed to pursue happiness. Possibly the remnants of being exposed as a child to verbal abuse communicating to her that she does not deserve to be happy. Thus she does not reflect on what the best alternatives are in terms of finding a mate.
- a self defeated attitude : again centering on a poor perception of her own potential.
-confusion: confused as to what makes a relationship work.Availibility being the primary factor. Even single men can carry an emotional baggage which prevents them from allowing themselves to develop a healthy romantic relationship with a single woman.

-"the rescuer" role: targeting married males who appear to be experiencing marital issues. Quite common among women who exhibit a pattern of seeking a romantic involvement with married males. Where the spouse fails, the "girl friend" becomes "his secret garden". The one who understands him etc etc....Placing her in the deceptive position of rescuing the male from a state of unsatisfaction. It is amazing the degree of devotion such women can display to their married "boy friend".

It is not surprising to me, La Rubia, that our society finds such patterns of behavior as cultures which promoted polygamy did imply that the male needed multiple female mates to be complete and satisfied. Females being considered in such patriarchal models as servants to the needs of the male.

IMO any woman who seeks to entertain a romantic relationship with a married male is considering herself inferior to the male gender. Instead of looking out for her best interest and welfare, she is focused on servicing the needs of the male. She competes with the legitimate spouse hoping to achieve what she (according to the male) fails to do. Such men do exploit that sense of " oh poor thing.. I will give you what she witholds from you".

As an aside, we can communicate on PM sometime as to your comments about being blindfolded and picking the dysfunctional type! I have a couple of books I can recommend to break off from that type of "rescuer" role.

Hugs,
Veronique.

[Sheepdog]

i think a lot of it is just an innate fascination with forbidden fruit we seem to have as a species. Women aren't the only ones who have problems desiring what they can't have. (or, more accurately, what they shouldn't have).

guys fall into the same problem. consider, for instance, the creepy fascination some men have with schoolgirls in uniform. :shrug:

[angela]

Hi

I'm sometimes attracted to men who are married before I realize they're wearing a ring; and then it causes ethical qualms for me of the sort: 'oh shoot, now I have a crush on him, what do I do?'

Of course I realize it's idiotic to have a relationship with a man who is in another committed relationship - there's no future.

But sometimes the feelings are there and it's annoying to have to deal with then.

[jason]

I here stories like this, but I never seem to meet any of them. Although that might be good thing :wink:

Jason

[Teallaura]

Hi

I'm sometimes attracted to men who are married before I realize they're wearing a ring; and then it causes ethical qualms for me of the sort: 'oh shoot, now I have a crush on him, what do I do?'

Of course I realize it's idiotic to have a relationship with a man who is in another committed relationship - there's no future.

But sometimes the feelings are there and it's annoying to have to deal with then.


I've done that once... it's easy to have a crush, but it's just as easy to get rid of it - find something else to do. No daydreaming, no being near the guy, no letting yourself think about him when it crosses your mind - it took me two weeks, but it was well worth it.

Fleeting feelings aren't really the issue - especially not when you didn't know to begin with - but dwelling on, or even cultivating feelings for guys you know you can't have is just unhealthy - and really dumb.



Still, you're right, it can be really annoying...

...especially if the jerk wasn't wearing his ring...:brood:

[Teallaura]

...

guys fall into the same problem. consider, for instance, the creepy fascination some men have with schoolgirls in uniform. :shrug:


:eww: I think you just explained one of those weird anime things... I wish you hadn't done that....:hrm:

I gotta go wash my mind out with soap, now...:outtie:

[roddmann]

Lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, pride of life.

[Rubia Warren]

Bonjour la Rubia,


I feel for your friend who seems to seek destructive relationships but I am proud of you remaining close to her and offering your affection to her. It is good of you to not be judgemental and attempt to understand what is going on thru her mind. You definitly will be more helpful to her than by placing yourself above and beyong reproach as you express your concerns to her.

IMO the upbringing of such women who fall for the "impossible relationship" pattern have a lot to do with the limitations and restrictions they impose on themselves by being attracted to married men. Often, their relationship with their father may have caused that pattern. It would be interesting for you to examine what type of family background your friend came from.

I agree with part of what Musikman wrote. The married man may symbolize stability and commitment. Contrasting of course with the reality that those qualities will go down hill the moment he breaks them.

Is there a subconscious need to seek only impossible relationships? Yes, probably. Why? Several possible reasons :
- lack of self confidence that she is able to retain a man's love and devotion or even trigger them. By choosing mates who cannot demonstrate those traits to her, she avoids dealing with the root of her issues.
- low self esteem or worth : origine of the first reason. A sense of "doom" as if she is not allowed to pursue happiness. Possibly the remnants of being exposed as a child to verbal abuse communicating to her that she does not deserve to be happy. Thus she does not reflect on what the best alternatives are in terms of finding a mate.
- a self defeated attitude : again centering on a poor perception of her own potential.
-confusion: confused as to what makes a relationship work.Availibility being the primary factor. Even single men can carry an emotional baggage which prevents them from allowing themselves to develop a healthy romantic relationship with a single woman.

-"the rescuer" role: targeting married males who appear to be experiencing marital issues. Quite common among women who exhibit a pattern of seeking a romantic involvement with married males. Where the spouse fails, the "girl friend" becomes "his secret garden". The one who understands him etc etc....Placing her in the deceptive position of rescuing the male from a state of unsatisfaction. It is amazing the degree of devotion such women can display to their married "boy friend".

It is not surprising to me, La Rubia, that our society finds such patterns of behavior as cultures which promoted polygamy did imply that the male needed multiple female mates to be complete and satisfied. Females being considered in such patriarchal models as servants to the needs of the male.

IMO any woman who seeks to entertain a romantic relationship with a married male is considering herself inferior to the male gender. Instead of looking out for her best interest and welfare, she is focused on servicing the needs of the male. She competes with the legitimate spouse hoping to achieve what she (according to the male) fails to do. Such men do exploit that sense of " oh poor thing.. I will give you what she witholds from you".

As an aside, we can communicate on PM sometime as to your comments about being blindfolded and picking the dysfunctional type! I have a couple of books I can recommend to break off from that type of "rescuer" role.

Hugs,
Veronique.

Hey Rahab!
Nah, I quit getting down on my friend a long time ago. She is the type that if you realy get adament about something, she reacts by wanting to do it more- she's got that "I'll prove you wrong!" attitude. She began earlier this summer, seeing a guy who is in prison for murder. She swore up and down he really didn't do it, wrote him every day, visited him, etc. Our other friends said, "RUBIA! Why are you not getting onto her about this?!?! This is horrible!" I said, "Because the more you make an issue out of it, the more she will "love" this guy. If you don't give her that attention, or even show little signs of encouragement, she will get bored and stop."..... and she did. It only took 4 months and she was bored. :lol: If I had hounded her and gotten in her face like I did when she was seeing the married guy, it would have lasted much longer. :yes: She is kinda like a stereotypical teenager in that respect, except that she is a grown woman. She would test me often, even making comments like, "r00bz, none of us can believe that you are approving of my new relationship with my soul mate." (inside I gagged) I would just reply, "Hey, you know what? I think this is the BEST relationship you have ever picked! I mean, you're finally somewhere where you can have the upper hand. He can't ride in front of your house with another woman, can't cheat on you. Can't blow all his money down at the bar. Can't beat you up. And certainly, whatever you say goes in the relationship- I mean, what's he going to do, argue with you, and risk you breaking it off with him? You're his only visitor. He has to abide by whatever you say. What an empowering relationship! You can pick him up and put him down whenever you feel like it. Does he have any friends in there who are not getting out for many many years?" and she'd just be speechless. The fascination quickly wore off as she called me one night and said, "You know, I think this is a bad idea. I mean, I kinda feel like I want to have a man that I can actually be with and do things with." I'd say, "No. Say it ain't so. You've got the perfect thing going on right now with him! A relationship to envy! Do you know how much time, energy, and money you are saving by being with this guy?" and she laughed. "Okay, r00bz, you can drop all that stuff now. I'm done with him." :lol: She is just hard-headed that way.

This friend of mine has a HORRIBLE reputation in this area. She was very very promiscuous from a young age. Seeing the married man and having his child didn't help. But since I met her as neighbors about 6 years ago, I can't help but like her anyway. She is the ultimate true-blue friend. Will give you the shirt off her back, will jump in her car anytime, day or night, and race to come help you. And I am one of her few friends. I can't defend many things she has done, and some things really bother me, but I still love her to death.

She was horribly abused sexually by her stepfather. Her mother had 4 different husband/live-in boyfriends while she was growing up, and also visited men in prison and took her with her to meet them as a child. The stepfather who sexually abused her did not just fondle her or do inappropriate things- he did EVERYTHING with her- and I truly mean EVERYTHING. and he was violent- many times locking the family in the basement for long periods of time. Her real father is a weirdo who remarried another weirdo. When she was small, she and her sister asked their stepmother "What is a solar eclipse?" and (***warning: this is very graphic stuff coming up**) and she said, "Well, I will show you what a solar eclipse is." and partially inserted their Barbie dolls into their rectums. :huh: So that was her childhood-- something sexually perverted at every single turn, and no one to be able to lean on for stability, or without ulterior sexual motives. Even women. :no: I don't think her stepmother actually did that for sexual pleasure, so much as just to be a mean person.
Incidently, that woman works in a store I used to frequent. After she revealed that to me a few years ago, I just have avoided that place like the plague. Every time I saw that woman I just felt inside like coming across the counter and clawing her eyes out.

It is very hard to look at her mother and imagine the life that she gave to her daughters. She is now very successful, seems very stable, and is a foster parent to children who wards of the court. She has adopted 3 so far- teenagers. She also lives with another woman.
My friend is not bothered by the fact that her mother lives with a woman. What causes her great bitterness inside is the fact that my friend has 3 children (no fathers around), and their grandmother does not give them the time of day. She says, "My mother and her girlfriend try to act the greatest humanitarians- taking in foster children, running around helping with hurricane Katrina, volunteering at the Boys' Club...... yet she has 3 grandchildren whom she hardly recognizes." No visiting them, no letting them spend the night on weekends, no taking them to the park, nothing. Ever. But the foster children get taken on trips to Chicago to go shopping, they take them various places, etc. So she loves her mom but is kinda bitter about that, and the past.

My friend definitely has issues with men. Like I said in the OP, she only picks men specifically whom she knows inside she cannot have. She spent 3 years at the feet of this one man, trying to get him to "love her", and he only gave her the time of day when it was convenient for him. But then she lost interest in him as soon as he began paying attention to her. We talk about it a lot, and when I bring that up, she admits it- she does not really want someone to be close to her, yet she feels compelled to chase anyone who does not want her. She learned at least one valuable lesson from her experience with the married man though- she refuses to even set eyes on one anymore. And she is no longer promiscuous as she was when I first met her.

It is sad for her 3 boys, as there have been at least 5 men so far that they have called "dad"- and her oldest is only 9. She took her middle son to the prison to visit the murderer guy, and when he came back he said, "Yeah, I just went to meet my new dad at the jail." That particular son I feel the sorryest for- he is 6 and already gets in lots of trouble at school. The counselor at school told my friend that he has issues with male authority figures and is very angry- and he is one angry little boy most of the time.

That is the part that makes me get upset at times and feel like intervening. Her boys, because I feel sorry for them. But she refuses to listen. If I tell her to at least date a guy and not introduce him to her kids, she will do it with even more gusto-- trying to prove me wrong, that they will not be hurt, that it will all work out (while at the same time admitting she does not want someone who wants her). It's just a really sad, vicious cycle. Then she will call me crying. "Why does everybody else's kids have dads but mine? Why aren't mine good enough???" and at those times I have no choice but to tell her quietly and calmly, "But they do have dads. You just won't let any of them come around. Weren't you the one who always says, 'they don't need fathers. They have me. We don't need anyone.' When your oldest's dad has come around, you ran him off for no reason. It isn't that no one wants to love your kids, it is that you don't want anybody to be close to them, for some reason, unless it's somebody you are interested in." Then she cries harder and yells, "I KNOWWWWW!! But why do I gotta DO THAT?!!?!?!" "I dunno," I tell her, "but just try not to give them anymore guys to call 'dad' for a while until you can get it figured out. Go see a counselor or some kind of support group or something. I think it all has something to do with how abused you have been."
But she isn't ready to do that right now. And I can't really talk, cuz I'm not a perfect woman, either. :nsm:

[themuzicman]

Sorry, but I just can't wrap my mind around why some women destroy themselves and their kids like this.

[Rubia Warren]

Sorry, but I just can't wrap my mind around why some women destroy themselves and their kids like this.
I don't know exactly why each one does (there are many many), and hopefully with this post I will not take away from each person who has overcome something horrible in their lives, as they give people like me hope and inspiration (not just with emotional issues, I'm talking in general). I think the easiest way to explain for many, why they would destroy themselves and their kids is because they themselves have already been "destroyed" (not completely, just very damaged), which, to me, is why sexual abuse of children is such a horrible, awful, disgusting crime. It is something that most people are just not right after that- forever. They can recover to great degrees, and move on, but it isn't easy and they are never the same people that they maybe could have been had these things not happened. Contributing to that is that many people repeat many things that they grew up in- notice the same types of patterns in my friend as I described her mother in her earlier years?

Why do some people I have met call their children "MotherF'ers" and "idiots"? Their parents called them that. But they didn't like getting called that. SOme people resolve to never call their kids the names their parents called them. SOme people just perpetuate what was done to them and lie to themselves. I think my friend lies to herself a whole lot.


even masked profanity is not allowed.

[Pilgrim]

Lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, pride of life.
Go 77's!

[Faramir]

(Myself, I'm leery of dating divorcees - he left her, why wouldn't he leave me? And you can forget any guy who's cheated on a wife/fiancee' - I'd rather stay single than deal with that trash. And yes, I'd feel the same in reverse were I a man.)

:yeahthat: I am a man and I feel the same in reverse.

[Pilgrim]

What if the person being cheated on was abusive her or himself? What if their actions drove the person away? Is there any grace for such a situation?

[themuzicman]

I will usually warn my kids against dating someone whose parents are divorced.

[Faramir]

What if the person being cheated on was abusive her or himself? What if their actions drove the person away? Is there any grace for such a situation?

For divorce? Yes. For example, I had a room mate who was divorced. He loved his first wife, and did not want a divorce (even after he caught her cheating). She petitioned for divorce, he had no choice. Can't really hold that against him. And there are biblical grounds for divorce as well.

Cheating? I have very little tolerance for infidelity and can think of no justification for adultary. Unless the adultery occured prior to conversion. Even then I would consider a case by case basis, but be very leary of a known adulterer.

But then, for me it is all academic as I am very happily (euphoric even) married and plan to stay that way for a very long time.

[Teallaura]

What if the person being cheated on was abusive her or himself? What if their actions drove the person away? Is there any grace for such a situation?

Grace? Sure, but it would be foolhardy to consider such a person until they show serious signs of repentance. You can't 'drive' a spouse to adultery because they have other options (insisting on marriage counseling, seperation, and in the worst cases, divorce, etc.). 'My husband/wife did x' is no excuse for cheating - period. What they did may well have been wrong - but it doesn't justify a second evil, adultery. Or, in the venacular, two wrongs don't make a right. Those who chose to use their spouse's behavior as an excuse (and more often than not it isn't a valid excuse) are simply behaving childishly (you hit me first!). No excuse.

If I saw such signs, I might consider him. But frankly, he still bailed when the going got tough - and there's no guarantee it won't get tough with me either. The boy's track record speaks for itself, so without one extremely good reason for the divorce, and/or extremely good evidence of repentence, I don't see a reason to give him the chance to do it to me, too.

[spiritmech]

Can't argue with that. :shrug:
sm


Grace? Sure, but it would be foolhardy to consider such a person until they show serious signs of repentance. You can't 'drive' a spouse to adultery because they have other options (insisting on marriage counseling, seperation, and in the worst cases, divorce, etc.). 'My husband/wife did x' is no excuse for cheating - period. What they did may well have been wrong - but it doesn't justify a second evil, adultery. Or, in the venacular, two wrongs don't make a right. Those who chose to use their spouse's behavior as an excuse (and more often than not it isn't a valid excuse) are simply behaving childishly (you hit me first!). No excuse.

If I saw such signs, I might consider him. But frankly, he still bailed when the going got tough - and there's no guarantee it won't get tough with me either. The boy's track record speaks for itself, so without one extremely good reason for the divorce, and/or extremely good evidence of repentence, I don't see a reason to give him the chance to do it to me, too.

[roddmann]

Go 77's!

http://www.cmo.com/cmo/cmo/data/77.htm (http://)

[Sheepdog]

:eww: I think you just explained one of those weird anime things... I wish you hadn't done that....:hrm:

I gotta go wash my mind out with soap, now...:outtie:


merry christmas! :nc:

[SpinyNorman]

I will usually warn my kids against dating someone whose parents are divorced.

Really?

Why?

[jason]

Sure, but it would be foolhardy to consider such a person until they show serious signs of repentance.
Actually, think about it for a second. If they showed "serious signs of repentance" they would not be available to consider at all. That is what repentace in such a situation really entails.


The boy's track record speaks for itself, so without one extremely good reason for the divorce, and/or extremely good evidence of repentence, I don't see a reason to give him the chance to do it to me, too.
Unless the man was in the position of being forced to get a divorce by his wife (essentially she walked out on him and nothing he could say would make her change her mind) then youwould be best to stay well clear.

Not to mention, if my wife left me, it seems like the faithful thing to do, and the thing most honouring of the vow I took would be to wait for her to repent and take her back, even if I wait till I die or she does.

Anything less seems like a betrayal of the vow at the end of the day.

A truly repentant divorced person would go back to the spouse they left or live permantly celibate.

the only biblical exception Paul seems to allow for is if one spouse abandons the other and the unbeliever refuses to live with the believer no matter what. That seems to be the only exception in scripture.

Jason

[jason]

Really?

Why?
Probably because they are usually commitment-phobic anyway, and the example they have learned is that marriage can be broken.

It doesn't doom the endevour but it is something to keep in mind.

Jason

[sprky777]

I'm sometimes attracted to men who are married before I realize they're wearing a ring; and then it causes ethical qualms for me of the sort: 'oh shoot, now I have a crush on him, what do I do?'
Meet his wife and get to know her. If the two of you get along well, suggest the possibility of becoming a second wife. If she accepts you in this position then maybe the two of you can convince him also.

Of course I realize it's idiotic to have a relationship with a man who is in another committed relationship - there's no future.
If he has truly proven his commitment then he may make a good husband to a second wife. You can see evidence of his record. When a woman seeks to marry a man that has never been married then she takes a chance that he may stray. He may even think he will be committed until he gets married then changes his mind and wants his freedom again.

[SpinyNorman]

Probably because they are usually commitment-phobic anyway, and the example they have learned is that marriage can be broken.

It doesn't doom the endevour but it is something to keep in mind.

Jason

What a wonderfully narrowminded and steroetypical statement.

[jason]

What a wonderfully narrowminded and steroetypical statement.
Stereotypes exist for a reason and statistics don't lie. Those who come from divorced families are commitmentshy because the model they have seen is one where commitment is impermanant and they are more likely to divorce because the prime example of "life time commitment" they have seen is one that is not.

Sorry if you have a problem with a grim reality but I choose not to live in some rosy fantasy land.

It would not doom every relationship, but it is baggage that someone from a non-broken familiy will not be carrying with them. There is nothing narrowminded about calling a spade a spade. Only a fool would do otherwise,

Jason

[Teallaura]

Actually, think about it for a second. If they showed "serious signs of repentance" they would not be available to consider at all. That is what repentace in such a situation really entails.


Unless the man was in the position of being forced to get a divorce by his wife (essentially she walked out on him and nothing he could say would make her change her mind) then youwould be best to stay well clear.

Not to mention, if my wife left me, it seems like the faithful thing to do, and the thing most honouring of the vow I took would be to wait for her to repent and take her back, even if I wait till I die or she does.

Anything less seems like a betrayal of the vow at the end of the day.

A truly repentant divorced person would go back to the spouse they left or live permantly celibate.

the only biblical exception Paul seems to allow for is if one spouse abandons the other and the unbeliever refuses to live with the believer no matter what. That seems to be the only exception in scripture.

Jason


I'll grant the majority of this. As I stated earlier, I'm leery of divorcee's in general and I certainly didn't have in mind anything of a recent nature. But you're mistaken about the Biblical exceptions; there is a second: when the spouse has remarried it is not permissible for the original couple to remarry. In that instance a second marriage should be permissible, which was something of what I had in mind.

Regardless of whether the couple was married or not, it's just stupid to get involved in a relationship with someone who has an unresolved relationship with someone else. As long as the offended (since in this hypothetical I was discussing the adulterous spouse) spouse has not remarried, she takes precedence and he would not be under consideration by me.

-------------------------

Spiny, Jason may be a bit overly blunt, but he's right. The stats for kids of divorce are dismal - and they almost always bring those issues into a marriage. Like any other big issue, it's best resolved before marriage than after. I wouldn't completely write them off - but it is a factor that you need to be aware of, and decide well ahead of time whether or not you can deal with it. A child from a broken home and a child from an intact home will find that they are worlds apart in their perceptions - and they have got to be on the same page going into marriage or they are going to tear each other apart misunderstanding one another.

I'm not convinced it's hopeless, but there are real problems with marrying someone from a broken home when you aren't. The biggest warning sign to me would be someone who viewed his/her parents divorce as an okay thing, with no hint of regret (or worse, defensiveness) of the divorce (excepting abuse/neglect for the moment). That tells me that either there are issues are underneath and unresolved or they have a laissez (sp) fair view of divorce - both are death knells to life long marriage. Since my goal is to never divorce, it's a poor choice for me - and them as well. Setting yourself up for failure in a marriage is the same exact thing as setting your spouse up for failure as well - what affects the marriage affects you both. Sometimes, it really is best for both to walk away.

[spiritmech]

Spelling Police: laissez.
okay, sorry.

sm

[jason]

But you're mistaken about the Biblical exceptions; there is a second: when the spouse has remarried it is not permissible for the original couple to remarry.
Where the adulterous spouse has run off and abandoned the marriage. Isn't that what I said ? Sorry for the confusion.

Essentially I don't really think there is an adultery exception as such. At least not for the purposes of divorce and remarriage. To often it is used as an excuse.

Jason

[Teallaura]

Spelling Police: laissez.
okay, sorry.

sm


:hug: Actually, thanks... I couldn't remember and spell check wasn't helping...

[Teallaura]

Where the adulterous spouse has run off and abandoned the marriage. Isn't that what I said ? Sorry for the confusion.

Essentially I don't really think there is an adultery exception as such. At least not for the purposes of divorce and remarriage. To often it is used as an excuse.

Jason


Actually, it sounded to me like you were referring to Paul's discussion of unbelievers having left the marriage to a Christian - slightly different situation.

For the adulterous (Christian) spouse, I agree. The 'exception' is extremely limited and depends upon the actions of the offended spouse. The offended spouse has more lee way - but that seems perfectly consistent to me. In neither case is divorce/remarriage considered a minor or small matter.

[Pilgrim]

So here's a question: How many people participating in this thread are actually married or have been married?

[Rubia Warren]

I'm married. :hi:

When I was single, I suppose I didn't notice much if a person's parents had gotten a divorce. I had 4 main rules when I dated:
1. Nobody in a relationship (or married), or just coming out of one.

2. Nobody who has a history of physical violence or cheating

3. Nobody whose parents don't like me (<--- that was a big one for me)

4. Nobody who has kids already.

#4 might seem cruel, but I never wanted to deal with all the stuff that comes along with step parenting. I knew that was never for me. I found it best just to avoid guys who already had children.

[Pilgrim]

I'm married. :hi:

When I was single, I suppose I didn't notice much if a person's parents had gotten a divorce. I had 4 main rules when I dated:
1. Nobody in a relationship (or married), or just coming out of one.

2. Nobody who has a history of physical violence or cheating

3. Nobody whose parents don't like me (<--- that was a big one for me)

4. Nobody who has kids already.

#4 might seem cruel, but I never wanted to deal with all the stuff that comes along with step parenting. I knew that was never for me. I found it best just to avoid guys who already had children.
Number 4 doesn't seem cruel to me, you're just being honest with what you were ready to handle at that time.

I have a good friend who got married to a man with children. The ex wife continued a descent of mental illness and just after my friend and her husband had their first child together, suddenly they were parents to the 4 other children because the ex was not competant to parent them anymore.

She is overwhelmed.

[Pilgrim]

So here's a question: How many people participating in this thread are actually married or have been married?
Oh, by the way: Pilgrim is married. 8 years this month.

[roddmann]

Actually, it sounded to me like you were referring to Paul's discussion of unbelievers having left the marriage to a Christian - slightly different situation.

For the adulterous (Christian) spouse, I agree. The 'exception' is extremely limited and depends upon the actions of the offended spouse. The offended spouse has more lee way - but that seems perfectly consistent to me. In neither case is divorce/remarriage considered a minor or small matter.


"Adulterous (Christian)"....hmmm...oxymoron perhaps?
1 Corinthians 6:9
"Or don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals..."

These are not my words

[Pilgrim]

"Adulterous (Christian)"....hmmm...oxymoron perhaps?
1 Corinthians 6:9
"Or don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals..."

These are not my words
Spoken like a true pharisee. Good for you!

Seriously, I hear what you are saying, and I think that anyone who continues in such a life style with out repentance is in trouble, but I also believe in grace.

If Christ's grace is suffecient for God then why should it not be for me?

[Teallaura]

"Adulterous (Christian)"....hmmm...oxymoron perhaps?
1 Corinthians 6:9
"Or don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals..."

These are not my words

You might want to spend a little more time reading things in context - Paul's epistles for one.

Nowhere does the Bible say Christians will be automatically perfect - or that we won't stumble, or fall and sometimes in big ways. Yes, it is perfectly possible to be a Christian and sin. It comes into question when the sin continues and is utterly unrepentant whether or not you were ever indeed a Christian - but even big sins don't necessarily indicate that a person isn't a Christian at all.

Now, whether or not they inherit the Kingdom - look at what Paul tells us "...and such were some of you." Clearly, it is possible to live in even the most sinful lifestyle, repent and change, thereby becoming eligible. If you read the whole section, you'll find Paul is discussing how Christians should treat one another - and contrasts them with what they were, but still indicating the saving grace of God.

Jesus teaches us to forgive our brother seventy times seven - or as often as he repents. It's grossly inconsistent with Scripture to suggest that God does not forgive repentant Christians who sin - or that Christians never sin. Pilgrim is quite right about God's grace and our need to extend that grace to others - our discussion is centered on when that repentence is genuine enough to do so with an adulterer to the extent of accepting that person as a potential marriage partner.

[themuzicman]

"Adulterous (Christian)"....hmmm...oxymoron perhaps?
1 Corinthians 6:9
"Or don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals..."

These are not my words

Did you keep reading until verse 12?

[eudyptes]

Spiny, Jason may be a bit overly blunt, but he's right. The stats for kids of divorce are dismal - and they almost always bring those issues into a marriage. Like any other big issue, it's best resolved before marriage than after. I wouldn't completely write them off - but it is a factor that you need to be aware of, and decide well ahead of time whether or not you can deal with it. A child from a broken home and a child from an intact home will find that they are worlds apart in their perceptions - and they have got to be on the same page going into marriage or they are going to tear each other apart misunderstanding one another.

I'm not convinced it's hopeless, but there are real problems with marrying someone from a broken home when you aren't. The biggest warning sign to me would be someone who viewed his/her parents divorce as an okay thing, with no hint of regret (or worse, defensiveness) of the divorce (excepting abuse/neglect for the moment). That tells me that either there are issues are underneath and unresolved or they have a laissez (sp) fair view of divorce - both are death knells to life long marriage. Since my goal is to never divorce, it's a poor choice for me - and them as well. Setting yourself up for failure in a marriage is the same exact thing as setting your spouse up for failure as well - what affects the marriage affects you both. Sometimes, it really is best for both to walk away.

my 1.5632 cents worth

Great points on working things out "before marriage", but that holds true with any couple. I've known some good "kids" who've had great marriages that have come from divorced homes. Also there are a lot of screwed up marriages out there that kids come from where the parents aren't divorced. Both sides of the marriage bring in their "family culture" into the marriage, so getting to know the family before getting married is always a good thing to do.

We hand our "kids" (college age Sunday School class) a premarriage questionaire - with 63 (or so) questions on it. With the advice that they work through each question with whomever they intend to marry. (I'm at work or I'd get the link, don't have it handy, we pulled it from a marriage web site.) We also tell them that if the put in the effort before getting married, it'll pay HUGE dividends after the wedding.



And to Pilgrim's question: Married, just a few weeks shy of 24 years.

[roddmann]

You might want to spend a little more time reading things in context - Paul's epistles for one.

Nowhere does the Bible say Christians will be automatically perfect - or that we won't stumble, or fall and sometimes in big ways. Yes, it is perfectly possible to be a Christian and sin. It comes into question when the sin continues and is utterly unrepentant whether or not you were ever indeed a Christian - but even big sins don't necessarily indicate that a person isn't a Christian at all.

Now, whether or not they inherit the Kingdom - look at what Paul tells us "...and such were some of you." Clearly, it is possible to live in even the most sinful lifestyle, repent and change, thereby becoming eligible. If you read the whole section, you'll find Paul is discussing how Christians should treat one another - and contrasts them with what they were, but still indicating the saving grace of God.

Jesus teaches us to forgive our brother seventy times seven - or as often as he repents. It's grossly inconsistent with Scripture to suggest that God does not forgive repentant Christians who sin - or that Christians never sin. Pilgrim is quite right about God's grace and our need to extend that grace to others - our discussion is centered on when that repentence is genuine enough to do so with an adulterer to the extent of accepting that person as a potential marriage partner.

I didn't elaborate or editorialize on this particular Scripture, I merely quoted it. In some countries (e.g. Canada is the latest) you do this and you are subject to jail under new "hate crime" laws. Some Scriptures, such as this particular one, truly provoke significant reactions - pro and con. How fun!!

[SpinyNorman]

Stereotypes exist for a reason and statistics don't lie. Those who come from divorced families are commitmentshy because the model they have seen is one where commitment is impermanant and they are more likely to divorce because the prime example of "life time commitment" they have seen is one that is not.

Sorry if you have a problem with a grim reality but I choose not to live in some rosy fantasy land.

It would not doom every relationship, but it is baggage that someone from a non-broken familiy will not be carrying with them. There is nothing narrowminded about calling a spade a spade. Only a fool would do otherwise,

Jason

Well shoot.

As my parents were evil sinners who divorced and my wifes parents were good christians who did not I guess my marriage is shot.

** Guess I am off to let my wife know our marriage is doomed to fail.

[SpinyNorman]

The stats for kids of divorce are dismal -

The stats for "GOOD" christian marriages are just as dismal I hate to point out.

[Raptor]

Well shoot.

As my parents were evil sinners who divorced and my wifes parents were good christians who did not I guess my marriage is shot.

** Guess I am off to let my wife know our marriage is doomed to fail.

My parents divorced when I was 3 (back in 1982). But my In-laws have been married almost 30yrs.

I guess I don't have a chance either.....

[SpinyNorman]

Yeah Raptor we are screwed.

Should we start a divorced mens group now?

[Raptor]

Sure. I'll tell your wife if you tell mine. :deal:

[SpinyNorman]

:chat:

[Teallaura]

Eudyptes: Granted, never intended to imply otherwise. And congratulations on 24 years of marriage! :thumb:



I didn't elaborate or editorialize on this particular Scripture, I merely quoted it. In some countries (e.g. Canada is the latest) you do this and you are subject to jail under new "hate crime" laws. Some Scriptures, such as this particular one, truly provoke significant reactions - pro and con. How fun!!

Disingenuous. You quoted the verse in a response and in a particular context - the implications were obvious (if poor) and answered. Nice dodge - 'I only quoted it' - yeah, you quoted it, with a distinct connotation that you couldn't back up. Then you add an irrelevant smokescreen about Canada and another jab about people reacting to distract from the fact that all that happened was you got caught with your proverbial pants down.

Cute.




The stats for "GOOD" christian marriages are just as dismal I hate to point out.

Whoa - no one said there was a moral distinction between marriages of people from intact homes and those from broken homes - no one (certainly not me) is arguing that at all. Nor is anyone arguing that people from broken homes cannot make good marriages for themselves and their spouses. All we're saying is that there are particular issues that one needs to be aware of and deal with up front.

My sister divorced several times and her kids all suffered for it. Their marriages have for the most part been disastrous. Yeah, there are kids that do fine, but far more that don't.

And the stats really aren't in your favor here. Kids of divorced parents are more likely to divorce themselves or to never marry. Pretending that the divorce had no effect when it did is, in my opinion, part of the driving force behind those stats. It's not insurmountable - unless you never take a good hard look at the mountain.

We all come with issues - the important thing is to identify and deal with those issues, before they deal with us.






Teallaura: Single, never married. Hoping to be a worthy wife someday.

[roddmann]

Good. Yet more visceral, even vehement reaction to God's message aimed at the messenger. Your issue is with the Word friend, not with me. I don't know you from Adam and you certainly don't know me.

Rather than using "Christian" and "Adulterer" as a conjunctive term, although a little long, it may be closer to accurate to refer to the individual as a backslidden Christian trapped in the sin of adultery.

Less whitewash. More truth.

Sorry you're not up on what's happening with laws concerning espousing hate, much of this legislation has gotten legs in this country, and are even law in other countries. It literally means that quoting certain parts of the Scripture (as I did) can land you in jail. I dare say I would be incarcerated already if you were the Sheriff.

You should check this out. Quite interesting.

Have a great weekend, relax.

~r

[sprky777]

What is the attraction that some women have to married men? Any theories?
This thread went way OT early. We have had time to think about this one, I still would like to see a good reason why this is true.

The only significant reason I have seen is mental illness: wanting what you can't have.

But many women that chase married men actually believe they can and succeed at getting these men. So what did they win for their efforts? A man that can't be trusted with commitment. Why did they want him in the first place? Because all the guys they had been dating were afraid of commitment or didn't desire long term relationships? Problem solved?

Another question, but this should be a different thread by itself; why do women seem to be drawn to 'players'. Even when everyone knows a guy is a player, women are still drawn to them. Nevermind, another thread..