Charismatics

[johnnybanano]

Hey all,

I am starting this thread as a place where you can put your thoughts, opinions, and sources on Charismatics. I was reading a thread started by Mike_TN over here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6097) and I wanted to learn more about the opinions and beliefs.

One to get started would be tongues...Pros/Cons, what are your beliefs about them, etc.

Another is "slaying in the spirit". This was brought up and I don't know what it means.

Any comments that are respectful and polite are really appreciated. Thanks

Love and Respect

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 03:10 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=133820#post133820)
johnnybanano:

One to get started would be tongues...Pros/Cons, what are your beliefs about them, etc.

OK, I'll start the thread off. My personal experience with tongues was a bumpy one. Unfortunately, the church I used to go to overly stressed tongues. I was made to feel "not complete" because I had not yet done it. I tried and tried (not the way to do it btw) but it didn't happen. I began to really study on who and how it occurred. After much prayer and fasting, I found my desire for tongues to be selfish because I wanted to be "whole" I abandoned this thinking and just settled into worshipping and serving God. Then, BOOM, it happened. I was praying at the altar one day repenting of a sin I had struggled with, and before I knew it, I was speaking in an unknown language!! I was not "more whole" nor was I of the opinion that I was any better than I was before. It was just a gift my God gave me and I was going to humbly accept it. I have come to understand the prudent times for tongues and for silence. My tongues now are rare. It seems to me to be an affirmation gift of God's presence in my life. This is my opinion on the matter from personal experience.

Another is "slaying in the spirit". This was brought up and I don't know what it means.

I've only had it happen a few times (like 3 or 4) and I know there are soooooo many fakes out there, so I'll tread delicately. I've seen personally the fakes who look back to make sure they don't fall on anyone, and I've seen the ones who sit down. My experiences were ones at crossroads in my life. The one that sticks out the most was when I accepted my call to Youth Ministry. I was standing and praying that God do a mighty work in me, and next thing I know, I'm looking up at the ceiling and my wife said I was down on the floor for 3-4 minutes. I have no idea what happened, but I know it was God. I had such a confirmation in my spirit of what He has called me to do.

In His Mercies,

Bill the Cat

[johnnybanano]

Today @ 10:45 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=134105#post134105)
Bill the Cat:


I began to really study on who and how it occurred.


Are there any specific sources or biblical passages you would recommend?


After much prayer and fasting, I found my desire for tongues to be selfish because I wanted to be "whole" I abandoned this thinking and just settled into worshipping and serving God.


I've been there. When I first heard (well...first understood) about tongues, I was thinking...Now why the heck have I never seen or experienced that? I began to think that it was a sign of salvation more than merely an attribute of the saved. This is one reason I wish to learn more about it. I would like to know what the implications are of its presence as well as its absence.


Then, BOOM, it happened. I was praying at the altar one day repenting of a sin I had struggled with, and before I knew it, I was speaking in an unknown language!!


This is one thing that I am afraid of. I think that if people in my church witness this, they might not like it. (Most likely because they don't understand it. As far as I know there is no Doctrine in my denomination condemning these occurances, other than the fact that someone should be there to interpret what is said.) However, I fear that if there is no one else who witnesses such a manifestation of the Spirit, it would be disregarded as a delusion. <---That's probably one reason that I have not yet experienced this!


It seems to me to be an affirmation gift of God's presence in my life. This is my opinion on the matter from personal experience.


That is how I now view tongues. The only problem is that I attribute my lack of experience to insufficient faith, however, it seems to be an affirmation gift.


I've only had it ["slaying in the Spirit"] happen a few times (like 3 or 4) and I know there are soooooo many fakes out there, so I'll tread delicately. I've seen personally the fakes who look back to make sure they don't fall on anyone, and I've seen the ones who sit down.


I am still not sure what it is. It seems to be an instance in which the Holy Spirit knocks someone unconscious. Is it biblical? I haven't seen an example in the Bible, but I haven't studied exhaustively for it either.


My experiences were ones at crossroads in my life. The one that sticks out the most was when I accepted my call to Youth Ministry. I was standing and praying that God do a mighty work in me, and next thing I know, I'm looking up at the ceiling and my wife said I was down on the floor for 3-4 minutes. I have no idea what happened, but I know it was God. I had such a confirmation in my spirit of what He has called me to do.


That sounds pretty genuine. That is one heck of a confirmation. Sometimes I feel like I need something like that to know that I am doing what God wants me to do. However, I suppose that goes back to insufficient faith. I am working on that though, and I can see the progress that I have had.

Thanks for your respose. It was quite helpful. Any other things that mainstream Christianity deems odd. I have heard things about "playing w/ snakes"...

Love and Respect

[kingsmusician1]

Hi,

I guess I will continue the discussion by presenting a counterpoint as a former charismatic.


One to get started would be tongues...Pros/Cons, what are your beliefs about them, etc.

I was "baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues" when I was 14 years old.

The 2 main passages of Scriptue that are used to defend this doctrine are found in Acts 2 and 1st Corinthians 12-14. Let's look at Acts Chapter 2 first...

(Acts 2:3-11) "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."

Here in this passage the "tongues" that are spoken are real languages not of the type that is spoken in many of our Pentecostal churches of today.

Now here is where it gets interesting they will take you to the next passage I talked about...1st Corinithians 12-14 to justify that the use of a prayer language is still valid for today.

We have to remember that the purpose of 1st Corinthians was not to establish doctrine but correct some errors that were occuring in the church there.


((1 Corinthians 12:29 - 13:13) "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (NKJV)

The emphasis in this passage is not on that gifts are what is most important but that Jesus as the Giver is what is important and w/o his love you won't have anything. The passage, imho,
does not endorse tongues.

I look forward to more discussion.

Bill

[Bill the Cat]

06-27-2003 @ 04:03 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=134468#post134468)
johnnybanano:



Are there any specific sources or biblical passages you would recommend?

Just got a sale paper from our Christian book store with some good resources.
1. (and I recommend this HIGHLY) the International Dictionary of Pentecostal Charismatic Movements by Stanley Burgess
2. Old Time power by Dr. Vinson Synan
3. A Brief History of the Pentecostal Holiness Church ( A history of my denomination)

as far as tongues, I'll defer to my Denomination's explanation, which helped me greatly:

Spirit Baptism And Speaking With Other Tongues

We believe that the Pentecostal baptism with the Holy Ghost and fire is obtainable by a definite act of appropriating faith on the part of the fully cleansed believer (Luke 11:13; 24:49; Acts 1:5, 8; 2:38, 39). We believe that this great blessing, which provides the enduement of power to witness for Christ, is available to all believers whose hearts are cleansed from sin by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Since the Bible teaches that our bodies are temples of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 6:19, 20)-and that the temple of God is holy, which temple ye (believers) are (1 Corinthians 3:16, 17)-we do not believe that God will fill an unclean temple or vessel with His Holy Spirit. In other words, we believe, because the Bible teaches and requires it, that in order to receive the baptism with the Holy Ghost, a person must have a clean heart and life as a prerequisite for this great blessing. Remember, the blood of cleansing must first be applied, then the oil, which is a type of the Holy Spirit (Leviticus 14:14, 17).

Moreover, we believe that in order to live in the fullness of the Holy Spirit's power and possession, one must continue to live a clean and consecrated life, free from sin, strife, worldliness and pride, and must avoid attitudes and actions which tend to "grieve" or "quench" the Holy Spirit of God (Ephesians 4:29-32; 1 Thessalonians 5:19). We believe that the "initial" (or first) evidence of the reception of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance (John 15:26, 27; Acts 2:1-4; 8:17, 18; 10:44-46; 19:6; 1 Corinthians 12:7). We do not believe this is the only evidence of the Spirit's baptism, but that it is the initial evidence just as it occurred in the repeated accounts of the Spirit's outpouring in the Acts of the Apostles. But there will be other evidences spelled out in our lives-the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22, 23), power to witness for Christ, power to endure the testings of faith and the oppositions of the world. We believe that the initial evidence of speaking with tongues is for everyone who receives the pentecostal baptism with the Holy Spirit, and we distinguish between this initial manifestation and the gift of tongues, which is not given to every Spirit-filled believer.

The Pentecostal Holiness Church believes in the gifts of the Spirit as set forth by the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14. We believe that they are "set in the Church" by the Holy Spirit; that He retains custody and control of the said gifts of "enablements," distributing or operating them "severally as He will." And we desire that our people may so live under the control of the Holy Spirit that these gifts may be manifested or used through consecrated individuals in the worship services where, when, and as they are needed, but all to the glory of God and the edifying of the body of Christ, and in accordance with the directions and decorum set forth in the chapters referred to above.





I've been there. When I first heard (well...first understood) about tongues, I was thinking...Now why the heck have I never seen or experienced that? I began to think that it was a sign of salvation more than merely an attribute of the saved. This is one reason I wish to learn more about it. I would like to know what the implications are of its presence as well as its absence.


There are churches that teach that it is a sign of salvation, I do not however, neither does my church. The absence of tongues does not imply the absence of grace any more than the absence of brown hair. It is a gift, not THE gift.


This is one thing that I am afraid of. I think that if people in my church witness this, they might not like it. (Most likely because they don't understand it. As far as I know there is no Doctrine in my denomination condemning these occurances, other than the fact that someone should be there to interpret what is said.) However, I fear that if there is no one else who witnesses such a manifestation of the Spirit, it would be disregarded as a delusion. &lt;---That's probably one reason that I have not yet experienced this!

This is the reason Paul said it was for private prayer. Whether someone believes you have this gift or not is irrelivant. God is the giver and it is for His glory. If you do experience it, is it really anyone elses' business to tell you it did not happen? God is the judge.


That is how I now view tongues. The only problem is that I attribute my lack of experience to insufficient faith, however, it seems to be an affirmation gift.

I don't believe it is a lack of faith. Faith the size of a mustard seed and all that...


I am still not sure what it is. It seems to be an instance in which the Holy Spirit knocks someone unconscious. Is it biblical? I haven't seen an example in the Bible, but I haven't studied exhaustively for it either.

Kind of. I ran across an article that was a pretty good read, albeit a bit further out than I am :teeth:

No matter how we feel about being "slain in the Spirit," the fact is that people sometimes fall down while they are receiving prayer and the laying-on of hands (otherwise this wouldn't be such a hot topic of debate!). Maybe it's because they think they're "supposed" to fall, or maybe it's because in some way they "want" to fall, or maybe their burdens are so overwhelming that they subconsciously need that "release" of relaxing and letting go, or maybe their knees just get weak and wobbly during prayer, or maybe they lose their balance because they are looking up toward the ceiling with their eyes closed and their hands uplifted, or maybe they fall in worship and joy, or maybe they fall weeping with "a broken and contrite heart" (Psalms 51:17), or maybe they "fall out under the power of God." It really doesn't matter why a person falls to the ground while being prayed for, we should be prepared for the fact that people will sometimes fall over so that we can have someone ready to catch them.

http://www.layhands.com/SlainInTheSpirit.htm



That sounds pretty genuine. That is one heck of a confirmation. Sometimes I feel like I need something like that to know that I am doing what God wants me to do. However, I suppose that goes back to insufficient faith. I am working on that though, and I can see the progress that I have had.

Keep the faith and remember, it's not wrong to desire more of God.

Thanks for your respose. It was quite helpful. Any other things that mainstream Christianity deems odd. I have heard things about &quot;playing w/ snakes&quot;...

Love and Respect

The playing with snakes thing is overworked. I did a bit of online research and the group that does this only has a membership of about 400...oops 399 now (darn that snake!!) :rofl:

If you want to PM me and let me know what region you live in, I could get you in touch with our conference in your area.

God bless and much respect,
:btc:

[mandolin]

Well...thanks for starting this thread. I do not have much info on either side, but I figure I'll just state my opinions.

I will start by saying that I'm not too fond of charismatics. They kinda give me the creeps :shrug:

Anyways...I very much think it is equally as bad to be not charismatic enough as it is to be too charismatic. I have massive problems with folks who claim one MUST speak in tounges to be saved...but I also have problems with people who blatantly say that you CAN NOT speak in tounges.

Charismatic churches are energetic...you have to give them that. But when Paul commands that only one person should speak in tounges at once...it makes me not think too highly of crazy new age pentacostals. But when Conservative Baptists deny members the right to do any type of feeling oriented action, I find that equally retarded.

The holy spirit will move in peoples lives if he moves in their lives. I do not like churches saying that he must...and I don't like churches saying that he can't.

I usually very much question the validity of present day touges-speaking...but I will never blatantly call them liars. If some day I experience it..then my opinion will change. But until then...I guess I'll always be some what of a skeptic. Speak tounges if you want..but just don't push it like a necessity.

Granted...I gave no info. in this post, and I'm sorry you all sat through reading my ranting...but I just felt like stating my worthless opinions. :smile:

[Belteshazzar]

kingsmusician1:

The 2 main passages of Scriptue that are used to defend this doctrine are found in Acts 2 and 1st Corinthians 12-14.

Bill, thanks for posting the scripture references! Have a pearl :smile:

I think its always good to have a look at the Greek Orthodox take on issues that may have been confused in the translation. Here's what they say about speaking in tongues excerpted from http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7112.asp.

The Orthodox Church does not rule out Glossolalia. She simply does not regard it as one of the important ones. Better to "speak five words that can be understood ... than speak thousands of words in strange tongues." This is the Orthodox Christian viewpoint.

So they don't rule them out, but tend to think they are a private 'lower' gift from God.
Jerry

[DBoone]

Somebody quoted that you couldn't be baptised in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues until AFTER you've been fully cleansed. I hope they didn't mean perfect because that would rule all of us out!

I pray in tongues. "He who prays in an unknown tongue edifies himself."

[doulos]

Hi ya'll, this is my first post here!

1. Tongues - Biblical tongues are o.k. What we saw happening in acts, tongues being spoken for the benefit of the unbelievers that did not speak the language, is Biblical. The private prayer language or speaking an angelical language is not Biblical, and there is no support for it. But I am NOT saying that anybody that does speak in tongues is not a Christian or less of a Christian. I do worry about them though, because once you start accepting errors and saying they are biblical then you put yourself in danger of accepting bigger and bigger errors.

2. Slain in the Spirit - This has absolutely no biblical support whatsoever. If anybody has any biblical support for this I would like to see it.

3. Charismatics - You know in some ways I envy Charismatic churches because I often see the dedication, enthusiasm?, and joy in their churches that I see missing in so many other churches. As believers we have so much to be joyous about, and we should be dedicated to going to church more than just sunday mornings. The problem I do see with SOME Charismatics is that they take things too far. They let their emotions get out of control, and they let their emotions be the judge of what they see and hear and believe. This becomes so very dangerous because when we (as humans) get worked up and start feeling good our automatic assumption is: if it feels good it must be from God.

[Bill the Cat]

I didn't want to hijack this thread from JohnnyBanno, so I asked his permission to answer some of the other posts.

mandolin:

I will start by saying that I'm not too fond of charismatics. They kinda give me the creeps :shrug:

Well, you need to get to know me a bit, and I'll REALLY give you the creeps. :lol:

Anyways...I very much think it is equally as bad to be not charismatic enough as it is to be too charismatic. I have massive problems with folks who claim one MUST speak in tounges to be saved...but I also have problems with people who blatantly say that you CAN NOT speak in tounges.

A very fair statement. I agree 100%

Charismatic churches are energetic...you have to give them that. But when Paul commands that only one person should speak in tounges at once...it makes me not think too highly of crazy new age pentacostals. But when Conservative Baptists deny members the right to do any type of feeling oriented action, I find that equally retarded.

Problems I have as well. Even though I am a "tongues speaker" as it were, I don't like the "everyone talk in tongues" COMMAND or the randomness I have personally experienced... :shrug:

I usually very much question the validity of present day touges-speaking...but I will never blatantly call them liars. If some day I experience it..then my opinion will change. But until then...I guess I'll always be some what of a skeptic. Speak tounges if you want..but just don't push it like a necessity.

Once again, fair. I apreciate the openness to tongues without the reliance on it.

Granted...I gave no info. in this post, and I'm sorry you all sat through reading my ranting...but I just felt like stating my worthless opinions. :smile:

Nothing that I have not said/felt myself... :btc:

DBoone:

Somebody quoted that you couldn't be baptised in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues until AFTER you've been fully cleansed. I hope they didn't mean perfect because that would rule all of us out!

I pray in tongues. "He who prays in an unknown tongue edifies himself."

That'd be me... in a way. My denomination believes that in order for you to continue in the gift, you must have a cleansed life, and only the forgiveness from Jesus Christ can achieve that.

doulos:

Hi ya'll, this is my first post here!

1. Tongues - Biblical tongues are o.k. What we saw happening in acts, tongues being spoken for the benefit of the unbelievers that did not speak the language, is Biblical.

Looking at the passage from Acts, it says each man heard their own language. I don't know if you have ever heard 500 people speaking different languages at the same time, but I'm positive it'd be hard to distinguish any single one from the crowd of others. Something supernatural happened to both speaker AND hearer, IMHO.

The private prayer language or speaking an angelical language is not Biblical, and there is no support for it.

Really should not throw "unbiblical" out like that.


1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.


Eph 6:18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

As a charismatic, I understand praying in the Spirit to be described here:

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

and Paul mentions the tongues of Angels and separates them from the tongues of men in 1 Cor 13:1. Albert Barnes says this about the "I"
The word “I” here is used in a popular sense, and the apostle designs to illustrate, as he often does, his idea by a reference to himself, which, it is evident, he wishes to be understood as applying to those whom he addressed
Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible



But I am NOT saying that anybody that does speak in tongues is not a Christian or less of a Christian. I do worry about them though, because once you start accepting errors and saying they are biblical then you put yourself in danger of accepting bigger and bigger errors.

I resent the implication that a gift of the Spirit is an error.

1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.


2. Slain in the Spirit - This has absolutely no biblical support whatsoever. If anybody has any biblical support for this I would like to see it.

I'll just post an excerpt from the article I quoted earlier in my second post.
Those who have never experienced the Holy Spirit in such a tangible way might think that a person is faking this or is demonized or something, which can sometimes be the case. However, the power of God is real, and God sometimes "touches" people in special ways. Here are some examples:


When God created Eve, He first caused Adam to go into a deep sleep:

"So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh." (Genesis 2:21)
Adam's body physically reacted (by falling into a deep sleep) when God manifested His power.


When God made a covenant with Abram (later to be known as Abraham), God apparently caused Abram to go into a deep sleep:

"As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years."" (Genesis 15:12-13)
This doesn't sound like it was very pleasant for Abram, but the point is that Abram's body physically reacted (by falling into a deep sleep) when God manifested His power, just as Adam's body did.


God also put King Saul and his men into a deep sleep:

"So David took the spear and water jug near Saul's head, and they left. No one saw or knew about it, nor did anyone wake up. They were all sleeping, because the LORD had put them into a deep sleep." (1 Samuel 26:12)
The bodies of King Saul and his men physically reacted (by falling into a deep sleep) when God manifested His power, just as Adam's and Abram's bodies did.


When the guards at Jesus' tomb saw the glory of God which was revealed in the actions of an angel of the Lord, they were so frightened that they shook and fell over:

"There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men." (Matthew 28:2-4)
This wasn't a pleasant experience for the guards, but the point is that their bodies had a physical reaction at the manifested glory of God, and they fell down "like dead men."


When Judas led the soldiers to Jesus so that they could arrest Him, Jesus confirmed His identity by using the divine expression, "I AM" (as in Exodus 3:13-14: "Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'""). The soldiers and Pharisees physically reacted to this pronouncement of Jesus' glory by falling to the ground:

"So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?" "Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground." (John 18:3-6)
The NIV has "I am he" in this passage, but the word "he" is not in the original Greek (which is why other translations of the Bible such as the NASB and Young's Literal Translation have the word "he" in brackets in this passage). As you can see if you look in a Greek/English version of the Bible (check your local Christian bookstore), what Jesus actually said was, "I AM."

Here's what a couple of well-known Bible commentaries say about this passage:


"Fell to the ground (epesan camai). Second aorist active indicative of pipto with first aorist ending (-an). This recoil made them stumble. But why did they step back? Was it the former claim of Jesus (I am, ego eimi) to be on an equality with God (John 8:58; John 13:19) or mere embarrassment and confusion or supernatural power exerted by Jesus?" (Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament)
"[They were] struck down by a power such as that which smote Saul of Tarsus and his companions to the earth (Acts 26:14). It was the glorious effulgence of the majesty of Christ which overpowered them." (Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary)

So why did the soldiers and the Pharisees recoil or "draw back" when Jesus said, "I AM"? After all, if they had come for Peter then it is doubtful that they would have recoiled in that way when Peter identified himself. Somehow there was divine power or glory involved when Jesus said, "I AM," and the soldiers and Pharisees physically reacted to that manifestation of God's glory by recoiling or stepping backwards. Perhaps that caused them to stumble and fall, or perhaps it was the glory of God itself which caused them to fall.


When Jesus revealed Himself to Saul of Tarsus (later to be known as the apostle Paul) and his companions, it caused them to fall to the ground:

"About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'" (Acts 26:13-14)

The Bible says that Peter went into a trance when God was about to give him a vision:

"About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners." (Acts 10:9-11)
Peter had fallen into a trance, but what was his physical body doing while he was in this trance? Using modern terminology, perhaps a Christian who knew him would have said that he was "slain in the Spirit," or that he had "fallen out under the power of God" (or something equivalent).


The apostle Paul also fell into a trance when God was about to give him a vision:

"When I [Paul] returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance and saw the Lord speaking. 'Quick!' he said to me. 'Leave Jerusalem immediately, because they will not accept your testimony about me.'" (Acts 22:17-18)
Paul had fallen into a trance, but what was his physical body doing while he was in this trance? Using modern terminology, perhaps a Christian who knew him would have said that he was "slain in the Spirit," or that he had "fallen out under the power of God" (or something equivalent).


The apostle John said that he was "in the Spirit" when he was given visions of the future, which he wrote down in the book of Revelation:

"On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet" (Revelation 1:10)
What was John's physical body doing while he was "in the Spirit"? Using modern terminology, perhaps a Christian who knew him would have said that he was "slain in the Spirit," or that he had "fallen out under the power of God" (or something equivalent).


The apostle Paul was "caught up to the third heaven," and he didn't know if it was with or without his physical body:

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows--was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. ... To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4, 7)
Based on 2 Corinthians 12:7 (above), Bible teachers tend to believe that it was Paul himself who had been caught up to the third heaven. If Paul was not physically caught up into heaven then what was his body doing while he was experiencing heaven? Using modern terminology, perhaps a Christian who knew him would have said that he was "slain in the Spirit," or that he had "fallen out under the power of God" (or something equivalent).

Modern Christians who do not believe in being "slain in the Spirit" often say that the above Scripture passages are not meant to be normal experiences for Christians. But the point is that the frail human body can react by falling over or "going into a trance" or "going into a deep sleep" when the glory and majesty and power of God are manifested in some way. When the power of the Holy Spirit touches people who are standing up while receiving prayer, sometimes they fall to the ground. It would be out of balance to say that this should happen every time someone receives prayer, because it doesn't appear to have happened very often in the New Testament. But it would also be out of balance to say that this should never happen, because the above passages show that people can experience physical reactions at the manifested glory and power of God.



3. Charismatics - You know in some ways I envy Charismatic churches because I often see the dedication, enthusiasm?, and joy in their churches that I see missing in so many other churches. As believers we have so much to be joyous about, and we should be dedicated to going to church more than just sunday mornings. The problem I do see with SOME Charismatics is that they take things too far. They let their emotions get out of control, and they let their emotions be the judge of what they see and hear and believe. This becomes so very dangerous because when we (as humans) get worked up and start feeling good our automatic assumption is: if it feels good it must be from God.

A very good argument I will agree 100% with as well.

Thanks Johnny for permission to respond...

[Jacob]

Bill,

You're going a long way in addressing most of my negative characterizations of charismatic practices. For me, it is a family thing (3 charismatics, 2 evangelicals)...

I don't buy the reasoning in the verses for being "slain in the spirit", but that's for another thread.

Thanks for practicing the gifts within scriptural guidelines.

God Bless,
Jacob

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 09:31 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=141871#post141871)
Jacob:

Bill,

You're going a long way in addressing most of my negative characterizations of charismatic practices. For me, it is a family thing (3 charismatics, 2 evangelicals)...

I don't buy the reasoning in the verses for being &quot;slain in the spirit&quot;, but that's for another thread.

Thanks for practicing the gifts within scriptural guidelines.

God Bless,
Jacob

Jacob,

It has been my pleasure to help those here who did not understand the gifts in use today. I have greatly enjoyed our conversations and our tag-teams. Hope we can continue to team up again soon

:btc:

[doulos]

Bill the Cat:


Looking at the passage from Acts, it says each man heard their own language. I don't know if you have ever heard 500 people speaking different languages at the same time, but I'm positive it'd be hard to distinguish any single one from the crowd of others. Something supernatural happened to both speaker AND hearer, IMHO.


Im not sure were you came up with the number 500 (unless of course I am mistaken, please let me know if I am) but I believe at the most it was 132 or 133. There was 120 + the 12 + Mary. Even then Im sure they could pick out their own language and listen. The Holy Spirit had entered the disiciples and not the people.


Really should not throw "unbiblical" out like that.


1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.



Here Paul is not commending the Corinthians for doing this, He is saying that what is being done is not edifying others. Also, tongue here is not refering to a mysterious language.



Eph 6:18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,


Praying in the Spirit has nothing to do with tongues. Praying in the Spirit means that we should pray under our own power but using the power of the spirit who gives us the right things to say. Praying in the Spirit is praying for things consistent with the will of the Lord.


As a charismatic, I understand praying in the Spirit to be described here:

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.



In Acts 2:4 the disciples were glorifying God and talking about His great works, and was meant for the people around so that they too could glorify God. It was not necessaryily prayer. HOwever it
was in the Spirit though, but not in a private or angelical prayer language but in known languages. THe reason that it is was in tongues was so that the others could benefit.

and Paul mentions the tongues of Angels and separates them from the tongues of men in 1 Cor 13:1. Albert Barnes says this about the "I"
The word “I” here is used in a popular sense, and the apostle designs to illustrate, as he often does, his idea by a reference to himself, which, it is evident, he wishes to be understood as applying to those whom he addressed
Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible


Yes, I do not deny that Angles may have their own tongue but no where are we told to speak it or shown that there is any value in speaking it. Does the Creator of Tongues not understand us if we speak in our own language? The point of the verses in this part of COrinthians is not to say we should speak in an Angelic tongue but that if we did and did not have love what use would it be. Love is the most important thing. When you speak in a language that no one else understands how is that showing love to others.




I resent the implication that a gift of the Spirit is an error.

1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.


No, I am not saying that the gift of tongues is an error. Biblical tongues, known human language or dialect, is a blessing from God. What I am calling an error is tongues as is being used today, as a private or public prayer language in a heavenly language. No where does the Bible tell us this is ok.


I'll just post an excerpt from the article I quoted earlier in my second post.
[list]Those who have never experienced the Holy Spirit in such a tangible way might think that a person is faking this or is demonized or something, which can sometimes be the case. However, the power of God is real, and God sometimes "touches" people in special ways. Here are some examples:


When God created Eve, He first caused Adam to go into a deep sleep:

"So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh." (Genesis 2:21)
Adam's body physically reacted (by falling into a deep sleep) when God manifested His power.

This does not say that Adam fell backwards, or was thrown backwards, or that someone caught Him to make sure He didnt bump his head or anything like we see today. God had a purpose for doing this and it was to create women. Adam Clarke's commentary says: "This was neither swoon nor ecstasy, but what our translation very properly terms a deep sleep." He was not slain in the spirit but put into a deep sleep.


When God made a covenant with Abram (later to be known as Abraham), God apparently caused Abram to go into a deep sleep:

"As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years."" (Genesis 15:12-13)
This doesn't sound like it was very pleasant for Abram, but the point is that Abram's body physically reacted (by falling into a deep sleep) when God manifested His power, just as Adam's body did.

Again this is not slain in the spirit. Abram did not fall down, but fell into a deep sleep. Again there was a specific reason for this to happen, God was communicating a very important message to Him. The thick and dreadful darkness that fell over him was not sleep. He had already fallen asleep, the darkness was the vision of the affliction of his descendents.


God also put King Saul and his men into a deep sleep:

"So David took the spear and water jug near Saul's head, and they left. No one saw or knew about it, nor did anyone wake up. They were all sleeping, because the LORD had put them into a deep sleep." (1 Samuel 26:12)
The bodies of King Saul and his men physically reacted (by falling into a deep sleep) when God manifested His power, just as Adam's and Abram's bodies did.

Yes, I have no arguement that God can put people to sleep when He has a purpose. It was necessary here but nothing like what we see today.


When the guards at Jesus' tomb saw the glory of God which was revealed in the actions of an angel of the Lord, they were so frightened that they shook and fell over:

"There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men." (Matthew 28:2-4)
This wasn't a pleasant experience for the guards, but the point is that their bodies had a physical reaction at the manifested glory of God, and they fell down "like dead men."

They passed out from sheer terror. I would too if I was a non believer and saw this happen. I do not see how this is like slain in the spirit.

The rest of the verses do not give any support for what is happening today. He just list the verses and says that the they fell down, passed out, fell asleep, due to God. Yes they did, and all for a specific revelation or reason. Nowadays people are falling down all over the place and it does not coincide with scripture. We are suppose to worship with our spirit and mind and be aware of what is going own and not passed out on the floor. God is not glorified in this way.

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 12:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=141979#post141979)
doulos:



Im not sure were you came up with the number 500 (unless of course I am mistaken, please let me know if I am) but I believe at the most it was 132 or 133. There was 120 + the 12 + Mary. Even then Im sure they could pick out their own language and listen. The Holy Spirit had entered the disiciples and not the people.

Sorry, it doesn't really say how many, but the thought is 132 or so. But it does show the variety of people in the crowd

Act 2:9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."

At least 15 people groups. It would still be virtually impossible to distinguish their own dialect among a crowd of over 3000 people.


Here Paul is not commending the Corinthians for doing this, He is saying that what is being done is not edifying others. Also, tongue here is not refering to a mysterious language.

Never said he was commending them for tongues, as it's overuse was one of the major problems in the Corinthian church.
But the fact remains that Paul said that no man understrands it.


Praying in the Spirit has nothing to do with tongues. Praying in the Spirit means that we should pray under our own power but using the power of the spirit who gives us the right things to say. Praying in the Spirit is praying for things consistent with the will of the Lord.

I respect your interpretation of this verse. I said as a charismatic, this is how I view it. Could you give a few bible refs for your interpretation?


In Acts 2:4 the disciples were glorifying God and talking about His great works, and was meant for the people around so that they too could glorify God. It was not necessaryily prayer. HOwever it
was in the Spirit though, but not in a private or angelical prayer language but in known languages. THe reason that it is was in tongues was so that the others could benefit.

And I agree that it was known languages at this occasion, but the fact remains that it was an unknown to them language for the benefit of God's glory.

Yes, I do not deny that Angles may have their own tongue but no where are we told to speak it or shown that there is any value in speaking it. Does the Creator of Tongues not understand us if we speak in our own language? The point of the verses in this part of COrinthians is not to say we should speak in an Angelic tongue but that if we did and did not have love what use would it be. Love is the most important thing. When you speak in a language that no one else understands how is that showing love to others.

But the fact remains that Paul distinctly differentiated between the two and related the two to his hearers as fact that it was occurring.



No, I am not saying that the gift of tongues is an error. Biblical tongues, known human language or dialect, is a blessing from God. What I am calling an error is tongues as is being used today, as a private or public prayer language in a heavenly language. No where does the Bible tell us this is ok.

And I'll just have to disagree... I've shown where tongues are for personal edification and private prayer, not in the assembly with the randomness of today's churches. That's the main issue I have.


This does not say that Adam fell backwards, or was thrown backwards, or that someone caught Him to make sure He didnt bump his head or anything like we see today. God had a purpose for doing this and it was to create women. Adam Clarke's commentary says: &quot;This was neither swoon nor ecstasy, but what our translation very properly terms a deep sleep.&quot; He was not slain in the spirit but put into a deep sleep.


Again this is not slain in the spirit. Abram did not fall down, but fell into a deep sleep. Again there was a specific reason for this to happen, God was communicating a very important message to Him. The thick and dreadful darkness that fell over him was not sleep. He had already fallen asleep, the darkness was the vision of the affliction of his descendents.


Yes, I have no arguement that God can put people to sleep when He has a purpose. It was necessary here but nothing like what we see today


The rest of the verses do not give any support for what is happening today. He just list the verses and says that the they fell down, passed out, fell asleep, due to God. Yes they did, and all for a specific revelation or reason. Nowadays people are falling down all over the place and it does not coincide with scripture. We are suppose to worship with our spirit and mind and be aware of what is going own and not passed out on the floor. God is not glorified in this way.

Agreed in a way. There is MUCH abuse of this phenomenon. The verses I quoted show God CAN physically affect our bodies when we are in His presence. It is not impossible, but it is abused.

Do you believe I was faking it when it happened to me?

[Jacob]

06-27-2003 @ 02:10 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=133820#post133820)
johnnybanano:

One to get started would be tongues...Pros/Cons, what are your beliefs about them, etc.


Tongues is difficult because scripture appears to teach that there are different manifestations which are called "tongues". The word was commonly used to mean "languages".

Note first the distinction between what happened at Pentecost and what is described in Corinthians. One needs to determine if these are essentially the same type of manifestation, or two very distinct manifestations. Others will argue that they're different, but I will argue that they are essentially the same. I'll propose a reconciliation of Acts 2 & 1 Cor. 14, showing their commonality, while leaving room for a second purpose for tongues. I have not "argued this case" in over 10 years, so it will be a bit rusty...



Note that the purpose/result of tongues in Acts was that unsaved Jews were in Jerusalem hearing God's praise (or recitation of God's works) in their own languages. Was this totally unexpected, or was there OT precedent for what was to happen? Well, here's what happened:

Act 2:11 "Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."

Would it seem odd to these Jews, who presumably knew Hebrew, to come to Jerusalem only to hear God's praises in their native (non-Hebrew) tongue? I see this as a sign, fortold in the scriptures:

Isa 28:11 Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,

This was (in the OT) God's judgement on the southern kingdom of Judah, bringing the message of judgement through people speaking to them in other than Hebrew languages. This happened with the conquest of Judah by Bablyon.

This passage in Isaiah is quoted in 1Co 14:21, where Paul is teaching about tongues and it's proper usage in the church. Here he says (quoting Isaiah):

1Co 14:21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
1Co 14:22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
1Co 14:23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;

First, in verse 21, we recognize that Paul is quoting Isaiah, who was speaking to Jews in Jerusalem. In that context we see judgement being spoken to them through foreign languages being spoken in Judah. This judgement led to change/captivity. Note how this parallels the situation at Pentecost, where Hebrew speaking men hear foreign languages in Jerusalem, just as the Church is being established. This appears to be a very public declaration, by God, of the change occuring in God's economy. Now, instead of Israel, God's people would be the church. This change is, in effect, a judgment on the Jews who rejected Christ.

Second, the question which comes to mind is whether tongues are for believers or unbelievers. Tongues are a sign to unbelievers (v22), yet they are not to be spoken freely in the assembly, since an unbeliever might enter & say you're mad (v 23)! So in regards to being a sign, tongues, when interpreted (vv27-28) are for the unbeliever. In contrast, when uninterpreted, we see a function of tongues for the believer (vv 2 & 4) being self-edification, which is distinct from the public function.

Now the third part in this "argument" is to suggest that this public use of tongues being for Jews is not the exception, but the norm. This is done by noting who was present whenever tongues were spoken in Acts...

- In Acts 2, the "audience" is unconverted Jews. The sign to the Jews was that these men (the Apostles) were speaking for God, and bringing something new (namely, the church).
- In Acts 10, we see Gentiles speaking in tongues, the listeners being Jewish men. This was a sign to believing Jews that Gentiles who professed Christ were not to be denied baptism (again, a testimony regarding the nature of the church).
- In Acts 19, we see Paul, who had earlier been cast out by the Synogague, witnessing converts speak in tongues upon conversion. This also spoke judgement to the unbelieving synogague.

In all cases, a Jewish man is present when tongues are spoken in Acts. In all cases, there is a testimony to some Jews of change in "dispensation" (or covenant).

In summary, I suggest that the public purpose of tongues in the church, when no interpreter is present, was only intended to be a sign to unbelieving Jews. They would hear God's praises in a way that convinced them of His power. Some rejected this convicting, but other times it led to many believing.

Sorry for how sketchy this is. Some of these ideas are also presented at, http://www.users.on.net/mec/answers/79_ott.htm. NOTE, I don't agree with everything on this page.

Long story made short, I believe tongues are basically an evangelistic tool or a sign to unbelieving Jews, though Christians who have this gift may use it for personal edification...

Jacob





Another is &quot;slaying in the spirit&quot;. This was brought up and I don't know what it means.

[darcutm]

06-27-2003 @ 02:10 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=133820#post133820)
johnnybanano:


Another is &quot;slaying in the spirit&quot;. This was brought up and I don't know what it means.

Any comments that are respectful and polite are really appreciated. Thanks

Love and Respect

OK...I"m not going to say anything about tongues, other than I do believe and am quite active about it. (NO emails please lol)

Just a couple thoughts on "slaying in the Spirit". Aside from the terrible name let's look at one instance for now...
Remember when the Roman soldiers were standing guard outside the tomb of Jesus after He arose, and scripture says they fell over backwards.
"Well," you might say, "they were in the very presence of Jesus." That's very true, but Jesus said, "Where two or three are gathered..."

I've heard the expression before I totally agree with, "When the natural comes into contact with the supernatural, something's got to give, and it's not going to be the supernatural."

Just another thought--The Spirit of God is a gentleman. He is Love...God is Love (1 John 4:8)...So He's not going to do anything you don't want or that will embarass you. God's not going to go beyond what you are willing to accept. People tend to get so worked up over this, that they get out of love in trying to prove some one fell down on purpose or whether it was God. (Yes, some people will get in the flesh and fall down just so they can say they fell down.) But hey, if you come into contact with God and you don't want to fall and you shut yourself off to that, He's not going to force Himself on you...Praise God, He never will.

The same with tongues...If you don't believe for to be filled and never want the experience, then you never will. God's not ever going to make you speak in tongues if you don't want...We shouldn't get so ready to start a riot over these subjects...They aren't necessary for salvation...(Although some people think they are for whatever reason), but remember whatever we argue about what Scripture does or doesn't say about these subjects, it does say that God looks on the heart. And if you're hearts in the right place, I doubt sincerely that if you fell in the flesh during church you are on the fast road to hell.

IN HIM

[darcutm]

06-27-2003 @ 02:10 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=133820#post133820)
johnnybanano:


Another is &quot;slaying in the spirit&quot;. This was brought up and I don't know what it means.

Any comments that are respectful and polite are really appreciated. Thanks

Love and Respect

OK...I"m not going to say anything about tongues, other than I do believe and am quite active about it. (NO emails please lol)

Just a couple thoughts on "slaying in the Spirit". Aside from the terrible name let's look at one instance for now...
Remember when the Roman soldiers were standing guard outside the tomb of Jesus after He arose, and scripture says they fell over backwards.
"Well," you might say, "they were in the very presence of Jesus." That's very true, but Jesus said, "Where two or three are gathered..."

I've heard the expression before I totally agree with, "When the natural comes into contact with the supernatural, something's got to give, and it's not going to be the supernatural."

Just another thought--The Spirit of God is a gentleman. He is Love...God is Love (1 John 4:8)...So He's not going to do anything you don't want or that will embarass you. God's not going to go beyond what you are willing to accept. People tend to get so worked up over this, that they get out of love in trying to prove some one fell down on purpose or whether it was God. (Yes, some people will get in the flesh and fall down just so they can say they fell down.) But hey, if you come into contact with God and you don't want to fall and you shut yourself off to that, He's not going to force Himself on you...Praise God, He never will.

The same with tongues...If you don't believe for to be filled and never want the experience, then you never will. God's not ever going to make you speak in tongues if you don't want...We shouldn't get so ready to start a riot over these subjects...They aren't necessary for salvation...(Although some people think they are for whatever reason), but remember whatever we argue about what Scripture does or doesn't say about these subjects, it does say that God looks on the heart. And if you're hearts in the right place, I doubt sincerely that if you fell in the flesh during church you are on the fast road to hell.

IN HIM

[ladyepiskopos]

Let me start by saying that I do believe that all of the gifts are for today, and that God can do anything He wants to thru anyone He chooses.

I do have some questions about charismatics though.

1. Why do they send out "anointed" prayer cloths and oils? I know where the idea came from, but it seems out of context. It seems kind of shoddy. Aren't we supposed to put our faith in the Lord and not in objects?

2. Why are do so many charismatic (at least the ones on tv) ministers preach/teach like they never heard the words "sound doctrine"? I've seem some really bad theology from charismatic ministers.

3. Why do charismatics travel to hear ministers in order to "obtain that person's anointing?" What does that mean? How can you take something from someone that was given to them by God? Each of us is given gifts and callings and they are all irrevocable (or without repentance). When we are called to ministry the Lord gives us the appropriate anointing to carry that out. How can someone else's anointing benefit me? I've heard of people in a particular ministry having the same anointing, but "grabbing" someone else's anointing sounds strange to me.

I hope someone can answer these questions.

[darcutm]

Today @ 07:14 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=166375#post166375)
ladyepiskopos:

Let me start by saying that I do believe that all of the gifts are for today, and that God can do anything He wants to thru anyone He chooses.

I do have some questions about charismatics though.

1. Why do they send out &quot;anointed&quot; prayer cloths and oils? I know where the idea came from, but it seems out of context. It seems kind of shoddy. Aren't we supposed to put our faith in the Lord and not in objects?

2. Why are do so many charismatic (at least the ones on tv) ministers preach/teach like they never heard the words &quot;sound doctrine&quot;? I've seem some really bad theology from charismatic ministers.

3. Why do charismatics travel to hear ministers in order to &quot;obtain that person's anointing?&quot; What does that mean? How can you take something from someone that was given to them by God? Each of us is given gifts and callings and they are all irrevocable (or without repentance). When we are called to ministry the Lord gives us the appropriate anointing to carry that out. How can someone else's anointing benefit me? I've heard of people in a particular ministry having the same anointing, but &quot;grabbing&quot; someone else's anointing sounds strange to me.

I hope someone can answer these questions.

I'll do my best to help with some answers (seeing as how I"m sometimes referred to as charasmatic)

1. The oils come from James 5
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
This isn't really taken out of context, scripture says this can be done, however like cloths, it's not the object but like v.15 says, it's the prayer of faith that shall raise them up.

2. I've heard just as much flippant unbased out of context doctrine by noncharasmatics as I have "charasmatics". Seriously the biggest reason there seems to be no Bible based charasmatics is becasue they pretty much have their own channel on tv and can run this stuff 24/7.

3. Firstly, people have gotten off in some areas. And the recieving some one else's anointing is one of them...This stems from the story of Elijah and Elisha and Elijah's mantle. The buzz phrase is "I wonder who's going to get so and so's mantle. This is not accepted by nearly as many people as some are led to believe. They forget that we now have the Spirit of God on the inside of us and they forget that we've been given gifts differing and they forget that we each recieved the measure of faith. But some people would rather be religous and spooky (and competetive) than lovely and within the Word of God. Second, not all charasmatics who travel do it for that reason. Most, (I'd say 99.9999999999999% of them) travel for a convention based on the teaching that will be there. I always recieve new insight from certain people (It seems with all of us, there is someone who can take a topic in the Word and bring it face to face with us where we finally get it) and I've traveled to hear teachers at a convention solely because I like their teaching...

[Minister of loving1another]

hi I just saw this thread and I havnt read through it yet but wanted to give my thoughts on the original question before I get jumbled with everyone elses thought :smile: so forgive me if what I say has already been said before.

Firstly I was saved 11 years ago, I became saved in a traditional type church with hymns only. As I grew in my faith and started reading more I felt like something was missing church was a almost funeral, what I mean is people behaved like they were attending Jesus's funeral, there didnt seem to be much joy. when we got a younger pastor he introduced the chorus books into the church ( they had always been there for bible studies and evening services, but if you ever did a chorus in the morning at least 3 people would walk out and stand outside till the choruses were over). Any way as I grew and learned more and read my bible I really felt to get baptized by full immersion. with the new pastor though he kept having him and his family sick it was just one thing after another for over a year, seemed like at least every two weeks one of them were at the docs or hospital. One night I just had the words this is an attack by satan pray... so I started praying for my pastor.... before long I was spending like an hour to two hours praying. I think I read every prayer book I could get hold of too... anyway I had read many accounts of people speaking in tongues and paul in the bible said to do it so I started asking God for a gift of tongues so I could pray more effectively. After a few months this request was given.... I was kneeling beside my daughters bed one afternoon praying and all of a sudden a strange noise started coming from my mouth... it sounded like when you make up nonsense words and say them but a little faster. It actually frightened me and I stopped, I thought maybe this is satan trying to make me think I have a gift.
I spoke to the pastor and he believed it was from God so I started using it more... it seemed strange at first but I have gotten used to it and when I have no idea what to pray for someone or how I pray in tongues. Now I must also say the tongues I have is for my prayer life its not the public tongues where you say something out loud and people interpret.
anyway after having been in the traditional church for about 8 years I left and went to the church Im in now... I love the church Im in now we have more modern songs a hymn now and again, but most of all the church is alive. I metion this because I have been slain in the Spirit once, coming from the traditional church I was very sceptical about this falling down bizo. we had a visiting evangelist come through town and yes we had the ones who fell down everytime someone touched them basicly and looked behind to make sure they were going to be caught... well after many nights watching all this I started praying and asking God to show me if this was something of him... basicly I wanted proof that this thing could happen and that not everyone was faking it... so I begged God to let me experience it... well the evangelist called people out that needed healing of any kind... I went up front and this man started praying for me, he had the mic in one hand and had his other hand in the air and the next thing I remember was being on the floor... I knew it was God. I havnt fallen since but I dont care any more I know that God does make people fall, for whatever reason and that we can't put God in a box ... he can and will do anything. But I add that I don't believe he will do something if you don't want him to, he is a gentleman ... its a seeking heart that will have these things happen not a closed minded person who doesnt want to be embaressed in front of people.
anyway thats my stroy on the original question.... now I can read through the rest LOL

God Bless you

[TedO]

08-04-2003 @ 01:14 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=166375#post166375)
ladyepiskopos:

Let me start by saying that I do believe that all of the gifts are for today, and that God can do anything He wants to thru anyone He chooses.

I do have some questions about charismatics though.

2. Why are do so many charismatic (at least the ones on tv) ministers preach/teach like they never heard the words &quot;sound doctrine&quot;? I've seem some really bad theology from charismatic ministers.

I hope someone can answer these questions.

This is troubling indeed. As a charismatic myself, I never watch the drivel on TBN as so much of it is garbage. Why? It sells...plain and simple. The positive and negative thing about charismatic worship and preaching is that it is experiential. This draws crowds - it did in Jesus day, it does today. The TV crowd feeds off of this and just does what sells rather than preaching sound doctrine. Its sad but true. :sad:

[David O]

I was raised AG pentecostal, and am reconsidering it. Are there any pentecostal denominations that are really literal with 1 Tim 2:12 or 1 Cor 14:34? I can't imagine one with truly silent women, but it seems like there is every other kind of pentecostal denomination. Are there any who don't allow women to teach men?

[nomad]

ladyepiskopos:
1. Why do they send out &quot;anointed&quot; prayer cloths and oils? I know where the idea came from, but it seems out of context. It seems kind of shoddy. Aren't we supposed to put our faith in the Lord and not in objects?


the oils have already been answered. i just wanted to add, the cloths, i do not really know the scriptural justification for why you would do it that way, but acts 19:12 seems to show that this was done even in early church days.


3. Why do charismatics travel to hear ministers in order to &quot;obtain that person's anointing?&quot; What does that mean? How can you take something from someone that was given to them by God? Each of us is given gifts and callings and they are all irrevocable (or without repentance). When we are called to ministry the Lord gives us the appropriate anointing to carry that out. How can someone else's anointing benefit me? I've heard of people in a particular ministry having the same anointing, but &quot;grabbing&quot; someone else's anointing sounds strange to me.


i think it's application of OT things.... elijah passing on his 'anointing' to elisha for instance. the episcopal churches (little e, meaning orthodox, catholic, anglican, probably lutheran too, etc) also 'pass on' anointings by laying hands on newly ordained priests; priests have to be able to trace the 'genealogy' of their ordinations back to one of the apostles (who were, in turned, personally charged and anointed by Jesus himself of course).

i could say more, but this isn't a debate forum, so just trying to add some info. i am charismatic but not charismaniac.

[TedO]

Yesterday @ 10:58 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=172387#post172387)
David O:

I was raised AG pentecostal, and am reconsidering it. Are there any pentecostal denominations that are really literal with 1 Tim 2:12 or 1 Cor 14:34? I can't imagine one with truly silent women, but it seems like there is every other kind of pentecostal denomination. Are there any who don't allow women to teach men?

I believe there are many that follow 1 Tim 2:12 with regard to a woman teaching or having authority over a man. The basis for this is, according to Paul, based on the created order of things. There is broad biblical basis for this position. It is not just cultural.

Regarding learning in silence and not speaking in the church, this is much more obscure, and may well have to do with cultural norms (men and women sitting separately and such).

Why, if I may ask, is this such a key issue for you?

[nomad]

well, this isn't a debate forum, but i have a couple questions related to that:

one, my pastor once claimed that his wife was out teaching 'under his covering', i.e. with his authority, and that her doing so was sort of 'him by proxy' (ok, he didn't say all that, just the first part, but that's what i sort of read into it). has anyone heard anything like this? she does teach outside the church, only at women's events so far afaik, but teaches a sunday school class on worship (she's also the worship leader) which both men and women attend. i am not sure if it's defensible, but it seemed like a reasonable synergy of allowing women to use the gifts God gave them with, while not violating the divine order. any comments? which leads me to...

two, if a women teaches a sunday school class, even possibly advertises it as 'women-only' (though that isn't often done) - basically if men attend a class taught by a woman, who do you 'blame'? the woman teaching? the church? the men who chose to attend? i am not sure, in the philokalia the teaching model appears to have been, well, different anyways then, but i was curious. does 'not permit a women to teach', also mean 'don't permit men to even think about learning anything from a women'? that doesn't seem right at all.

authority is a totally different issue; probably not an issue, since most churches (especially pentecostal ones) don't like authority, and therefore it won't be given to anyone, male or female, except possibly the pastor himself.

[David O]

I don't think the silent part is obscure at all.

The issue is really important to me. I was raised by a man who converted from athiesm in Aimee Semple Mcpherson's church, and a woman who was raised in a church with a woman in the pastor position. The rationalization they used for breaking those commandments was easy for me to use to justify long hair, then eventually promiscuity and drug use. The denomination I was raised in was full of women teaching men and speaking out loud in church. Those women are constantly attempting to teach everyone something. They often taught rebellion against their husbands. The husbands followed suit by speaking of their wives as the great spiritual ones and consistently referred to themselves as luck idiot-types who hope to be worthy of their God-like wives someday. I bought the impression that women were morally superior to men. I worked for women, learned from women (high school, College, Sunday school, moral advice), I became such a woman that I was actually in a Lesbian folk duo for a while. Not kidding. My life went down into the pit as I embraced the rebellion and bent the scripture that I thought was culturally irrelevant to allow for all kinds of errant behavior.

I ended up going to a church that my daughter had started attending to meet friends. I learned how erroneous I was and started taking the Bible seriously. I pinned the pastor to the wall with questions about Paul's "hatred of women." He said that he wouldn't put himself under the authority of a woman, and I went to the Bible to try to disprove him. I eventually came to the conclusion that he was right. He has since come to the lame "under the authority of a man" rationalization spoken of by Nomad. I left his church when that became official policy. I have been trying to avoid teaching and advice from women, and have noticed that all this time I have been ignoring all the great advice from my Dad, the Pastor, the Elders, my boss, all the men I thought so low of. I have been retraining myself to see men as the ones to obey, and women as the ones to be protected. When you see a girl as the property of her Dad, its much harder to rationalize seducing her.

My old paster whom I miss the most was the (late) father of John Ashcroft. He pastored the church for missionaries in Brussels that I went to in High school, yes I'm an MK. He was pentecostal, but not rebellious.

[suffer for joy]

A friend of mine told me that when you are slain in the spirit there is a 'warmth' or 'burning' in your abdomen and your joints physically weaken to the point that you cannot stand. I'm interested if anyone else has experiences symptons similar to this? I myself have never experienced it but I have seen others experience it.

sfj