February 6th 2003, 10:43 PM
The argument from which this was derived can be found here:
..as was written by Sam Shamoun. It's an excellently well done article which I recommend to everyone.
At the request of Dee Dee I'll post a rough overview of what I debated on Evangelion's christadelphian board. The following is basically a list of scriptural occurences of the word(s) in question in addition to a multitude of quotes in support of this. The argument is quite frankly so simple, one needs not go any further than what is provided in the below. Unfortunately, with cultist, you will fail to have it so easy. I would like to link to the actual debate, but being as I was banned (for curious reasons :) ) I am unable to provide the URL. If someone would be so kind as to do so, I would be much thankful.
I am greatly indebted to Robert Hommel for the tremendous help he provided during the course of the debate :).
February 6th 2003, 10:46 PM
The occurences of the Aramic word, Pelach, in the OT are thus:
Ezra 7:24 Also we certify you, that touching any of the priests and Levites, singers, porters, Nethinims, or ministers <06399> of this house of God, it shall not be lawful to impose toll, tribute, or custom, upon them.
Daniel 3:12 There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve <06399> not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Daniel 3:14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve <06399> my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?
Daniel 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve <06399> is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
Daniel 3:18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve <06399> thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him,
and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve <06399> nor worship any god, except their own God.
Daniel 6:16 Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest <06399> continually, he will deliver thee.
Daniel 6:20 And when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel: and the king spake and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest <06399> continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?
In regards to the coming 'Son of Man' ie. 'Jesus Christ':
Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve <06399> him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve <06399> and obey him.
Brown, Driver, Briggs (BDB) definition for Pelach:
Verb. Pay reverence to, serve (deity).
1. Pay reverence to deity, Dan 3:28, 7:14, 27
2. Plural construction as noun, Ezr 7:24, servants of the house of God (+priests, Nethinim, etc.)
_The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon_ (Coded with Strong's Numbers), Hendrickson, 6th printing, August 2001.
The TWOT definition of Pelach:
serve, worship, revere, minister for
The original meaning of the root was "to cleave [open]" or "divide in two." From this meaning was derived the idea of cultivating a field and ultimately of cultivating (i.e., working hard at) the worship of a deity, hence the idea of service or worship of a deity. In Biblical Hebrew, the root is used only in the sense of cleave or split, and apparently did not develop into a term for religious service, as is the case in Aramaic." (Theological Wordbook of the OT, p. 1059).
From the Expositor's Bible Commentary:
"The universality of the rule of the Son of Man is emphasized in v. 14: “He was given authority [soltan], glory [yeqar] and sovereign power [malku]; all the peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him.” Christ is to be the supreme source of political power on earth after his earthly kingdom is established; and all humans, whatever their race, nationality, ethnic origin, or language, will worship and serve him (leh yiplehun), pelah being equivalent to the cultic use of the Heb. abad)" (EBC, Dan 7:23-25, Parson's Electronic Text).
In the LXX
The Hebrew original is abad, which is usually rendered DOULEUEIN when human relations are at issue and LATREUEIN when the reference is to divine service. LATREUEIN always has a religious sense except in the play on words in Dt 24:48. [Full quote reiterated below]
The Interpreter's Bible:
...The verb Pelah is that used in 3:12-18; 6:16, 20 (M.T. 6:17, 21) for serving in the sense of worshiping or being obedient to a deity, whether the gods of the Heathen or Israel's God. If the Son of Man is a Messianic figure, this connects with the idea of a great conversion of the Gentiles in the last days...Page 462
Elliot's Commentary on the Whole Bible:
(14) Serve him.--In the biblical Chaldee this word is only used of rendering Divine service or worship. The "Son of Man" is therefore here spoken of as God.
Keil Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament:
God gave to Nebuchadnezzar, the founder and first bearer of the world-power, a kingdom, and might, and majesty, and dominion over all the inhabitants of the earth, men, and beasts, and birds, that he might govern all nations, and tribes, and tongues (Dan_5:18-19), but not indeed in such a manner as that all nations and tribes should render him religious homage, nor was his dominion one of everlasting duration. These two things belong only to the kingdom of God. ôÌìç is used in biblical Chaldee only of the service and homage due to God; cf. Dan_7:27; Dan_3:12-13, Dan_3:17., Ezr_7:19, Ezr_7:24.
that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him; embrace his Gospel, submit to his ordinances serve and worship him in every religious duty; every people, of all nations, and of every language under heaven; which will be the case when the everlasting Gospel will be preached to them all with success, Rev_14:6,
Whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him; the people of the saints of the most High, all shall be subject to them, all dominions, and the governors of them; or Christ the head of them, under and with whom they reign. So Saadiah (s) paraphrases it,
"the kingdom of the King Messiah is an everlasting kingdom, and his government is to generation and generation, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.''
The Aramic is enough in itself to demonstrate what is at hand here. However the Greek translation of the OT, the LXX, provides us with additional support:
Concerning the LXX translation of Daniel 7:14:
Dan 7:13-14 "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that
all people, nations, and languages, should serve (auto latreuousa him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."
In the LXX the word for 'serve' is 'latreuousa', the inflected form of latreuw for the present active participle, in the feminine gender, singular number, nominative case.
You can check the presence of this word in the Greek itself by following the below link:
As Robert Hommel informed me:
Greek is an inflected language - nouns and verbs take on different endings, based on the case, number, and gender of the word. For example, THEOS is the lexical form (that which we find in the lexicons), but THEON (see John 1:1b) is the accusative form. This is NOT a derivative of THEOS - it is just the inflected form - and it doesn't change meaning, just because it has the accusative ending. Same is true of LATREUW
Evangelion had a problem with misrepresenting the Greek, insisting that 'latreuousa' was a wholly different word than 'latrueo'!
From the BADG on 'latreuo':
Serve, in our lit[erature], only of the carrying out of relig[ious] duties, esp. of a cultic nature, by human beings.
-- Each of the following examples demonstrate that service is rendered to God (or inappropriately, to Satan or idols).
Louw & Nida:
to perform religious rites as a part of worship.
--In a footnote, we find: "In the NT, LEITOURGEW and LEITOURGIA are less specifically religious in connotation than LATREUW and LATREIA.
In the LXX
The Hebrew original is abad, which is usually rendered DOULEUEIN when human relations are at issue and LATREUEIN when the reference is to divine service. LATREUEIN always has a religious sense except in the play on words in Dt 24:48.
Comparison with Nonbiblical Usage: The LXX focuses on the cultic sense but with no restriction to priestly ministry. Secular Greek prefers THERAPEUEIN fo rcultic worship, but the LXX usually has this for healing or cherishing, and it reserves DOULEUEIN for service in a general sense....
In the NT
b. LXX influence. The service denoted by the verb is always rendered to God (or to the gods) (cf. Rom 1:25; Acts 7:42).
Moulton & Milligan:
In Biblical Greek always refers to the service or worship of the true God or of heathen divinities.
February 6th 2003, 11:46 PM
Here's PLX in HALOT
Hal11017 PLX (Aramaic)
PLX: in Heb. meaning to split (cf. Latin colere);
—a. vb. EmpArm., EgArm. ; Carpentras, to serve God (Donner-R. Inschriften 269: 4); Pehl. (Junker Frahang 18: 5; Ps 132b); Palm., Hatra to serve God; JArm., DSS to cultivate the land; cf. GenAp xii: 13, to serve; Syr. to cultivate the field, serve a person, serve God; CPArm.; Mnd. to cultivate, serve, venerate.
—b. sbst.: JArm. PLXA servant, labourer; Sam. plÁnh work; . agricultural labourer
—c. for the meaning “to venerate” cf. Akk. palaÒhäu to fear, respect, venerate.
pe: impf. YPLXON; pt. PLX, pl. PLXYN, cstr. PALXEY: to serve God parallel with SGD, with acc. Da 317, with L 3220.127.116.11 617.21 714.27; pt. servant, PALXEY BAYT "ELAHA" Ezr 724. †
February 7th 2003, 09:26 AM
I thought you were kidding!! Ev really did ban you??
Haha! You thought I was just kidding? :rofl:
Is it this one?
It may be, but all I'll see is "You're not allowed to use this board", or something along those lines. :argh: I'm sure it is though, thanks!
Here's PLX in HALOT
Thanks GP! :thumb:
Wow. Pochacco doesn't think Polycarp ascribed to the deity of Christ now?
Just gets better and better...
Isn't that such backward reasoning? :sarcasm: Did you see his reasons 'why', and how he basically shot himself in the foot?
February 7th 2003, 06:41 PM
Nope, though I imagine it'd be painful reading...
That's odd. I certainly hope he hasn't been doing a little "editing" here and there. :huh: I hate to suggest conclusions as such, but considering his high prized ego, and the numerous blunders he made on that thread, it wouldn't surprise me.
In my last post (which I have saved, but was unable to put up) I was going to cite the BADG where Polycarp was listed under the definition of 'latreuo':
Eur., Ion 152; Pult., Mor. 405c; 407E; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 300 hOLH t. PUXH. Cf. En, 10, 21) Mt 4:10; Lk 4:8 (both Dt 6:13); 1:74; Ac 7:7 (cf. Ex 3:12); 24:14; 27:23; Hb 9:14; Rv 7:15; 22:3; Pol 2:1....
AV got banned!!! LOLOLOLOL - hey it happens to the best of us.
Doesn't bother me in the least (anymore). It only goes to show how weak his argument against it is. He kept trying to sidestep Dan7 and go into the NT. Of course that was where I was eventually going anyway, and in fact, made that offer prior to my banishment. Interestingly enough, he *snipped* it out, and then acted as if I never stated such! :o
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.